Posted on 12/08/2005 1:29:11 PM PST by NYer
Rome, Dec. 08, 2005 (CNA) - After the Mass celebrated in Saint Peters Basilica, Pope Benedict marked the feast of the Immaculate Conception, paying homage to the statue of Mary in Rome's historic Piazza di Spagna .
Thousands of Romans flocked to the square to greet the German pope, on his first 'pilgrimage' to the sculpture of the Virgin .
The tradition of the papal pilgrimage was brought back by his predecessor John Paul II more than 20 years ago .
"I deliver to the celestial mother of the Redeemer the anxieties and hopes of humanity," the 78-year-old pontiff said. He called on Mary to grace mankind with her spiritual presence "in every moment of our existence, above all during moments of darkness and trials." The statue of the Virgin Mary stands on a column in the northern section of the piazza, just around the corner from the famed Spanish Steps known to all tourists .
The column was erected by Pope Pius IX in 1854 after he declared the dogma of her immaculate conception, meaning that Jesus' mother was conceived without the stain of original sin .
The very words that she heard from Gabriel.
"just like Mary. The salient term is "like""
The salient word is caritovw "full of grace". The believer and Mary have both been made "caritovw".
"After her encounter with Jesus, Mary was incapable of spiritual death. "
So you believe in the preservation of the saints? :)
"We go furthermore, of course, to say that from before all time she was destined to choose life over death."
I though predestination was anathama?
"The very words that she heard from Gabriel."
I can accept that.
"Full of grace" proves nothing.
Even you have to admit her encounter was something special. Talk about a "personal relationship with Jesus."
Who said that predestination is anathema? Double predestination, maybe.
Claiming that a passage in the Bible about a woman who gives birth to the Christ is about Mary does not require very much Biblical support. It is pre-eminently self-evident. Extending the mystical definition of Mary to the Church, or beyond to Heavenly Jerusalem, requires theology, personal revelation and extrapolation, none of which are available to non-Catholics. But it is those who wish to claim that Mary is in no way the object of Rev. 12 who need to provide Biblical proof. Simply saying so doesn't quite cut it.
Eve says no, and her kind are set against the serpent. Mary says yes, and her son is set against the serpent. Jesus bequeaths his own mother as the mother of his beloved disciple. The offerings of Jesus to the apostles are universaly held to apply to all believers. A woman whose kind are beset by the serpent are identified as disciples of the Christ.
There is no math to do here.
Heavenly Jerusalem cannot be the "mother" of Jesus, for it is Jesus whose redemptive sacrifice enabled it to come into being. He proceeds it. Earthly Israel cannot be the great wonder in Heaven, it is the faithlessness of Israel that necessitated the New Covenant in the first place. The Queen of Heaven is Mary, from the first. Her being extends outwards to encompass the Church and then the New Jerusalem itself, ultimately becoming what she was from the first: the Bride.
v.
""Full of grace" proves nothing. "
Oh, now I see your point. Let me explain.
"Full of grace" is the phrase most Catholics use to try to prove Mary sinless. Hence my comparitive reference to Ephesians.
It never has.
What "proves" Mary sinless is her closeness to God. How Protestants could profess to believe in the Virgin Birth and yet treat Mary as if she were on the same level as the mothers of Issac. Samuel or John the Baptist is beyond me. As a matter of history, neither Luther nor Calvin made this mistake. While denying her a "throne" so to speak, they realized how necessary her holiness was to the divinity of Jesus. Demote her and Jesus becomes a mere prophet OR someone not human, not truly God and truly man.
"What "proves" Mary sinless is her closeness to God."
What fails to prove Mary sinless is the lack of Biblical testimony. Look at this post:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1536483/posts?page=168#168
Well, the lack of "Biblical testimony" did not keep most of the Protestant reformers from accepting the tradition of the Church with regard to this matter, nor the doctrine of the Trinity as laid down by the ecumenical councils. Of course, many Protestants are actually Nestorians but do not acknowledge the fact. Marianology is so closely linked to Christology, that where one "demotes" Mary, one tends to demote Christ. Neglect of Mary can take bizarrre. I attended a Methodist wedding at Xmas time in Maryland. There was a manger scene in the Church, but no statue of Mary. I asked why not, and got a strange reply. "We just don't do that." Did Jesus just pop out of the air?
*****"...with regard to this matter, nor the doctrine of the Trinity as laid down by the ecumenical councils."
Do you know of anything regarding the doctrine of the Trinity as put forth by the councils that can not be referenced by Scripture?
*****"many Protestants are actually Nestorians"
I don't know of any that woud hold to Nestorian heresy - except the liberal, and they are only half-Nestorican (Jesus only had a human nature).
*****"Marianology is so closely linked to Christology, that where one "demotes" Mary, one tends to demote Christ."
My concern is that the exalation of Mary is an attack on the unique ness of Christ. I hear Catholic teaching and theology that ascribes to Mary attributes which in the Bible I only find ascribed to God. I don't mena to provoke here - just being honest.
This is the POINT YOU MISS-She was conceived IMMACULATE- for the womb of her Mother,St. Anne...and she CONCEIVED Jesus IMMACULATE..she next to Jesus is the ONLY ONE EVR BORN ON EARTH who did NOT HAVE ORGINAL SIN>>>God did this to her because from the beginning HE CHOSE >>>HER>> TO BE the Mother of Jesus the True God and True Man..
Mary is called the Mother of Divine Grace..it is this I refer...and that SHe carried in her womb DIVINTY HIMSELF she also may be called DIVINE MOTHER!
Explained in TRUE DEVOTION TO MARY,or the Dheuy Rheims Catholic version (RED) BIBLE..the oldest and truest BIBLE >>ALSO refered to as the HADDOCK BIBLE>>>>
Guess yo do not believe that the Pope is the sucessor of St. Peter either??? and no other Church has a Pope..and Christ gave Peter the Keys to Heaven?
And Christ said, behold your Mother? ECT ect. ect.
*****" This is the POINT YOU MISS-She was conceived IMMACULATE- for the womb of her Mother,St. Anne"
There is no Biblical proof that what you are referring to ever occurred. This is just speculation built up to support your theology.
*****"she next to Jesus is the ONLY ONE EVR BORN ON EARTH who did NOT HAVE ORGINAL SIN>"
The Biblical witness is that there is only ONE person ever referred to who never sinned. I bet you can guess who that one person was.
*****" Mary is called the Mother of Divine Grace.."
Where is that title used in the Bible?
*****"she also may be called DIVINE MOTHER!"
"Divine Mother" is an occultic term.
http://divinemother.net/
http://www.goddess.ws/
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c2coff=1&safe=off&q=divine+mother&spell=1
Mary is not God, therefore she is not divine. Your belief is not Biblical, it is occultic.
That should bother you.
" Explained in TRUE DEVOTION TO MARY"
Hey, you need to put the quote you are referring to in there so I can see exactly what you are responding to.
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