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Pope makes pilgrimage to Mary statue in Rome, marking the feast of the Immaculate Conception
Catholic News Agency ^ | December 8, 2005

Posted on 12/08/2005 1:29:11 PM PST by NYer

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To: Rosary

"and no other Church has a Pope"

God is my "pope", i.e. my "papa".





" And Christ said, behold your Mother?"

I have one mother.

Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


101 posted on 12/13/2005 6:28:56 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: RobbyS
*****"Of course there are excesses. What I am pointing out is the excesses in the other direction."

I am not speaking of excesses. I am speaking of material contained in the CC and in the official prayers of the RCC. Mary is prayed TO. Her name is equated with the name of God, etc.



*****" As a matter of fact, the use of the philosophic terms " substance" and "person." (in the Latin) was famously debated."

They might have been better off sticking with primitivism as Paul did on issues he had no direct knowledge of.



*****"There is a lot of theological primitivism in all the churches, because people think that we ought not even to attempt to answer such questions."

There's a lot to be said for not trying to answer the unanswerable.

"Knowledge puffeth up."
102 posted on 12/13/2005 6:34:42 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Mary is prayed to, but so are the other saints. In a demotic society, it is easy to scorn the idea of a heavenly court, where those nearest the throne have the most power. But no one confused courtiers or the Queen Mother with the Prince nor forget where the source of power was. Today's protestants do not like earthly hierarchies, so they cannot admit a hierarchy of grace. Yet even on earth some are given greater spiritual gifts than others, for the purpose of sharing them with others. That is why people move from church to church in search of those with greater charisma.


103 posted on 12/13/2005 6:52:40 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS

*****"Mary is prayed to, but so are the other saints."

That does not make it better. :(

I am willing to listen to anyone that can prove their beliefs based on a rational argument from Scripture. I have found no evidence - ZERO - of anyone in the Bible praying to, appealing to, or making their need made know to anyone in the unseen realm other than God.

I can only conclude that this "omission" is purposful.



*****" In a demotic society, it is easy to scorn the idea of a heavenly court, where those nearest the throne have the most power. "

Heaven is not a democracy - but neither is is it a medieval court. Have you forgotten that God did not want Israel to even have a king? He said HE was their king and they should be ruled by Torah.



*****"That is why people move from church to church in search of those with greater charisma."

It has been said that frustrated Protestants change churches. Frustrated Catholics quit going. :)






104 posted on 12/13/2005 7:08:44 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

As is often asked on these threads, what is the difference between asking living saints(persons of merit in the Church) to pray for us and asking the saints in heaven? Are we to forget them when they are dead?Do they forget us? That is not in accord with the vision of St. John in Revelations. We believe in a single communion of the living and the dead. You would have them sleep until the Resurrection, but that is to beg the question.


105 posted on 12/13/2005 7:59:21 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Heaven is not a democracy - but neither is is it a medieval court. Have you forgotten that God did not want Israel to even have a king? He said HE was their king and they should be ruled by Torah.

I never said it was either. I was talking about the way that Protestants misrepresent the relations between ourselves and the saint's in heaven. We do not think they are divine. Mary, in our view, is totally human but she sits at the pinnacle of humanity, She is the point at which the divine enters humanity "in person". I am not about to limit debate to Scripture, but if you think can show where our reverence for Mary unequivocally contradicts Scripture, feel free.

106 posted on 12/13/2005 8:08:47 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

You just can't stay away can you? I dare you to attend an OCIA class.


107 posted on 12/13/2005 8:22:24 PM PST by tiki
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To: tiki

"You just can't stay away can you?"

FR is a "discussion forum" you know!

:)



"I dare you to attend an OCIA class."

What is that?


108 posted on 12/13/2005 8:26:52 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: RobbyS
*****"As is often asked on these threads"

I have heard it asked exceedingly often also. :)


*****"what is the difference between asking living saints(persons of merit in the Church) to pray for us and asking the saints in heaven?"

One is living and the other is dead. (and lets not quibble about the word "dead" - they are inaccessible). Added to this is the fact that the Bible is quite clear that it is an abomination to seek anything from the dead. So we have

1. No example of the practice
2. A positive example of EVERY Biblical figure addressing their prayer to God
2. Verses stating the practice of seeking anything from the dead is an abomination



*****" Are we to forget them when they are dead?Do they forget us? "

It not an issue of "forgetting", but the fact that no where in Scripture are we authorized to communicate with the dead.



*****"We believe in a single communion of the living and the dead."


Look at this verse...

" Now if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some of you say, "There is no resurrection of the dead"? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is without foundation, and so is your faith.... And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Therefore those who have fallen asleep in Christ have also perished."

- 1 Corinthians 15

Paul's knowledge that the dead in Christ have not perished is knowledge he derives from the fact that Jesus was resurrected - NOT from his personal communication with them.

Do you see that point?
109 posted on 12/13/2005 8:33:53 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Reference to a Jewish custom of reverencing the dead is found in Maccabees, which Protestants disregard by removing it from the canon (By what authority? ) Where in the New Testament is there any prohibition for asking something of the dead?
In Revelation John describes the martyrs wonders about the injustice that has been done to them. Are they only "accessible" to the mystic? They are "dead" but presented to us through a vision of the apostle,. Or do you think it all an allegory? As for Paul's remarks, they speak to the distinctive Jewish and Christian notion of the resurrection of the body. He is not addressing our subject at all.


110 posted on 12/13/2005 9:24:50 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS

*****"Reference to a Jewish custom of reverencing the dead is found in Maccabees,"

Praying "for" the dead is an entirely different matter. Not that I agree to its validity, it's just not the topic at hand.


*****"which Protestants disregard by removing it from the canon (By what authority? )"

We can come back to that.



*****"Where in the New Testament is there any prohibition for asking something of the dead?"

Where is the prohibition against laying with a beast? Or praying to the devil? Are you aware of how occultic that statement of your's sounds?



*****"In Revelation John describes the martyrs wonders about the injustice that has been done to them. Are they only "accessible" to the mystic?"

He was caught up into heaven. That is not analogous to praying to saints. Incidentally, while he was up there he didn't ask them to pray for him did he?


*****"As for Paul's remarks, they speak to the distinctive Jewish and Christian notion of the resurrection of the body. He is not addressing our subject at all."

Of course, but it his his presupposition I am getting at - the pre supposition that the fate of the believing dead can be ascertained from the fact of Christ's resurrection and not from personal contact with them.

Does it no give you the slightest pause that EVERY prayer in Scripture is addressed to God?



111 posted on 12/13/2005 9:51:22 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Every prayer addressed to the saints is ultimately addressed to God. You don't get the analogy of the court, where all power belongs to the sovereign and the courtesans are but his ministers. According to the doctrine of the communion of saints, living and dead are alike ministers of God. The Church is, in our view, the ultimate sacrament, the very means of Grace.

As for John, caught up to heaven he found the martyrs alive, and not "asleep."


112 posted on 12/14/2005 8:59:57 AM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Nothing about the Mother of Jesus is ever Occultic Pal !

She is the handmaid of the Lord- She carried GOD in her womb-for 9 mo.- she gave birth to Jesus as GOD WILLED IT- she raised HIM,She loved Him as Every good Mother loves their child-she followed Him to the cross and STOOD there to support Him in the cause to save YOUR SOUL as well as all mankind- and DIE on that cross!
So don't ever EVER say that about MARY ! And if what the POPE says about her in the Immaculate Conception is not good enough for you-I suggest you go find the book TRUE DEVOTION to MAry and LEARN !! End of conversation-MAy God teach you who Mary is!1 Mary Christmas


113 posted on 12/14/2005 5:04:01 PM PST by Rosary (Pray the rosary daily,wear the Brown scapular)
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To: Rosary

*****" Nothing about the Mother of Jesus is ever Occultic Pal ! "

I didn't say that Mary was "occultic" but that the unbiblical name you have give to her was occultic - and it is. You saw the links so you know it is an occultic term. It sure isn't Biblical.


*****"She is the handmaid of the Lord- She carried GOD in her womb-for 9 mo.- she gave birth to Jesus as GOD WILLED IT- she raised HIM,She loved Him as Every good Mother loves their child-she followed Him to the cross and STOOD there to support Him in the cause to save YOUR SOUL as well as all mankind- and DIE on that cross!"

Agreed. Totally. Everything you said there is in the Bible. I have no problem with that.


*****" So don't ever EVER say that about MARY !"

Again, this isn't about Mary - but about an improper name YOU made up for her. You could give her some grandiose name like "wife of God", or "Mother of the Trinity" those are not it accurate names for her. Neither is "Divine Mother".



*****"And if what the POPE says about her in the Immaculate Conception is not good enough for you"

I put the word of the Bible in front of the words of any man.



*****MAy God teach you who Mary is!"

He has - it's in the Bible.




114 posted on 12/14/2005 7:17:40 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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