Skip to comments.Pope makes pilgrimage to Mary statue in Rome, marking the feast of the Immaculate Conception
Posted on 12/08/2005 1:29:11 PM PST by NYer
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Again, jumping to faulty conclusions, and beleiving them.
Thanks, petronius for being omniscient and knowing for a fact that her statement is blasphemous. As hard as it is for you to accept, you too will become catholic at the moment of your death, when the reality of God's plan is revealed to you upon your death. Silly man.
"Again, jumping to faulty conclusions"
Can you elaborate???
I'm reminded of the recent controversy of the South Park episode denigrating Mary, and the two recent threads where certain FReepers vigorously defended the sacrilege and jumped all over me for calling it trash. Oh well!
You just gloss over the fact that Catholic Doctrine teaches that 1) Jesus is the only mediator; and 2) the ultimate judge. Yet you insist that this is not what the Church beleives! You insist on taking other Catholic beleifs that are not contradictory to this, but which to your limited mind beleiver are similar, and again, because of your limited mind, you automatically jump to the faulty conclusion that since they are similar they are the same. Sometime, you should actually sit down and read a book on Catholic belief, and not a book on supposed Catholic beleifs. Remember your perception of what Catholic's beleive (and your sincere beleif in your personal infallibility) are not actual Catholic beleifs.
Yes, that it, God revealed all in the Bible. (which by the way was written by Catholics)
And more over, you are in one sense correct, the revealed word of God support the Catholic position. But the true meaning of those words, which you so deliberately insist on misinterpreting, WILL be revealed to you upon your death. Thats all. You can't lie to yourself in the afterlife Petronio.
"You just gloss over the fact that Catholic Doctrine teaches that 1) Jesus is the only mediator;"
Wrong, friend. Catholic doctrine is that there is one mediator between God and man - Jesus. But there is also a mediator between Jesus and man - Mary.
"Sometime, you should actually sit down and read a book on Catholic belief,"
If it is in the Bible , shouldn't I have been able to have found it there?
"Yes, that it, God revealed all in the Bible"
So why do I need to wait till death to find out?
" (which by the way was written by Catholics)"
The NT (except perhaps Luke) was written by Jewish Christians. They never called themselves "Catholic".
Ah. Listen your argument is ciruclar, similar does not equal same. Calm down, don't get your pants in a bunch. One day you will understand. It's not my job to convince you that your interpretation of what my Church teaches is wrong. Until then. . . .
I can, but you insist on saying that what the church teaches isn't really what it teaches. There is an objective way of doing this read the Catholic Catechism. If it is in there, that is what is beleived.
The argument is
1) The catholic church teaches X
2) your response is the Catholic church does not mean X it means Y.
The only respnose I can give is that it teaches X.
So technically, no I can not convince you that it teaches X when you insist that Y=Y and X=Y, no matter what I say. You are not putting forth a reasonable response to argument 1. It's mathematically impossible.
As we(hopefully) shall be after the general Resurrection.
"As we(hopefully) shall be after the general Resurrection."
Believers may be glorified after deeath, but they will never be omnipresent. Only God can do that.
"And as Luke tells us, Mary was the first of us to submit fully to the will of God"
Jesus tells us that those that do God's will are like brothers, sisters and a mother to him. But wait! I thought she was far closer than we could ever be!
If the universe is finite, and it is no matter how "unlimited," because it is God creation, then a man/angel can be at every point WITHIN IT at the same time.
"There is an objective way of doing this read the Catholic Catechism. If it is in there, that is what is beleived. "
What does the CC say about the mediatorial powers of Mary?
"So technically, no I can not convince you that it teaches X when you insist that Y=Y"
Are you stating the the CC's teaching is that Mary is NOT the mediator between Christ and man?
"then a man/angel can be at every point WITHIN IT at the same time."
Can you prove that with Scripture?
If you read your Dante, you will see what we mean by "closer." To be closer to God is to be holy, and the saints who are most holy are the "closest."
"If you read your Dante, you will see what we mean by "closer.""
Dante is political/theologial satire. It isn't scripture.
And the verse in view damages the uniqueness of the position of Mary. Mary is right there. Jesus does not point people to her, but directs their attention to doing the will of God.
Oh, I am speculating. But if we have bodies like Jesus's, then what is a wall? What is a thousand years? What is a "lightyear?" Already through science we know that a wall is not solid, and that space has properties we never guessed before.
No, he is doing something very radical in the context of middle eastern cultures. He is saying that the Church is more important than our own blood kin.
"He is saying that the Church is more important than our own blood kin."
Which it is, being that it's association is spiritual and eternal and flesh and blood is temporal.
But you still can't get around the other part.
Mary was the first Christian.
"..for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved."
Interestingly, the world behind "grace that he has granted" is the same word (used only once elswhere) behind Mary's aclaimation "full of gace".
In other words, the believer, (in Christ) has been made "full of grace" just like Mary.
"Mary was the first Christian."
Interesting. What do you base that on? That she was the first to hear the Gospel from the Angel?
The very words that she heard from Gabriel.
"just like Mary. The salient term is "like""
The salient word is caritovw "full of grace". The believer and Mary have both been made "caritovw".
"After her encounter with Jesus, Mary was incapable of spiritual death. "
So you believe in the preservation of the saints? :)
"We go furthermore, of course, to say that from before all time she was destined to choose life over death."
I though predestination was anathama?
"The very words that she heard from Gabriel."
I can accept that.
"Full of grace" proves nothing.
Even you have to admit her encounter was something special. Talk about a "personal relationship with Jesus."
Who said that predestination is anathema? Double predestination, maybe.
Claiming that a passage in the Bible about a woman who gives birth to the Christ is about Mary does not require very much Biblical support. It is pre-eminently self-evident. Extending the mystical definition of Mary to the Church, or beyond to Heavenly Jerusalem, requires theology, personal revelation and extrapolation, none of which are available to non-Catholics. But it is those who wish to claim that Mary is in no way the object of Rev. 12 who need to provide Biblical proof. Simply saying so doesn't quite cut it.
Eve says no, and her kind are set against the serpent. Mary says yes, and her son is set against the serpent. Jesus bequeaths his own mother as the mother of his beloved disciple. The offerings of Jesus to the apostles are universaly held to apply to all believers. A woman whose kind are beset by the serpent are identified as disciples of the Christ.
There is no math to do here.
Heavenly Jerusalem cannot be the "mother" of Jesus, for it is Jesus whose redemptive sacrifice enabled it to come into being. He proceeds it. Earthly Israel cannot be the great wonder in Heaven, it is the faithlessness of Israel that necessitated the New Covenant in the first place. The Queen of Heaven is Mary, from the first. Her being extends outwards to encompass the Church and then the New Jerusalem itself, ultimately becoming what she was from the first: the Bride.
""Full of grace" proves nothing. "
Oh, now I see your point. Let me explain.
"Full of grace" is the phrase most Catholics use to try to prove Mary sinless. Hence my comparitive reference to Ephesians.
It never has.
What "proves" Mary sinless is her closeness to God. How Protestants could profess to believe in the Virgin Birth and yet treat Mary as if she were on the same level as the mothers of Issac. Samuel or John the Baptist is beyond me. As a matter of history, neither Luther nor Calvin made this mistake. While denying her a "throne" so to speak, they realized how necessary her holiness was to the divinity of Jesus. Demote her and Jesus becomes a mere prophet OR someone not human, not truly God and truly man.
"What "proves" Mary sinless is her closeness to God."
What fails to prove Mary sinless is the lack of Biblical testimony. Look at this post:
Well, the lack of "Biblical testimony" did not keep most of the Protestant reformers from accepting the tradition of the Church with regard to this matter, nor the doctrine of the Trinity as laid down by the ecumenical councils. Of course, many Protestants are actually Nestorians but do not acknowledge the fact. Marianology is so closely linked to Christology, that where one "demotes" Mary, one tends to demote Christ. Neglect of Mary can take bizarrre. I attended a Methodist wedding at Xmas time in Maryland. There was a manger scene in the Church, but no statue of Mary. I asked why not, and got a strange reply. "We just don't do that." Did Jesus just pop out of the air?
*****"...with regard to this matter, nor the doctrine of the Trinity as laid down by the ecumenical councils."
Do you know of anything regarding the doctrine of the Trinity as put forth by the councils that can not be referenced by Scripture?
*****"many Protestants are actually Nestorians"
I don't know of any that woud hold to Nestorian heresy - except the liberal, and they are only half-Nestorican (Jesus only had a human nature).
*****"Marianology is so closely linked to Christology, that where one "demotes" Mary, one tends to demote Christ."
My concern is that the exalation of Mary is an attack on the unique ness of Christ. I hear Catholic teaching and theology that ascribes to Mary attributes which in the Bible I only find ascribed to God. I don't mena to provoke here - just being honest.
This is the POINT YOU MISS-She was conceived IMMACULATE- for the womb of her Mother,St. Anne...and she CONCEIVED Jesus IMMACULATE..she next to Jesus is the ONLY ONE EVR BORN ON EARTH who did NOT HAVE ORGINAL SIN>>>God did this to her because from the beginning HE CHOSE >>>HER>> TO BE the Mother of Jesus the True God and True Man..
Mary is called the Mother of Divine Grace..it is this I refer...and that SHe carried in her womb DIVINTY HIMSELF she also may be called DIVINE MOTHER!
Explained in TRUE DEVOTION TO MARY,or the Dheuy Rheims Catholic version (RED) BIBLE..the oldest and truest BIBLE >>ALSO refered to as the HADDOCK BIBLE>>>>
Guess yo do not believe that the Pope is the sucessor of St. Peter either??? and no other Church has a Pope..and Christ gave Peter the Keys to Heaven?
And Christ said, behold your Mother? ECT ect. ect.
*****" This is the POINT YOU MISS-She was conceived IMMACULATE- for the womb of her Mother,St. Anne"
There is no Biblical proof that what you are referring to ever occurred. This is just speculation built up to support your theology.
*****"she next to Jesus is the ONLY ONE EVR BORN ON EARTH who did NOT HAVE ORGINAL SIN>"
The Biblical witness is that there is only ONE person ever referred to who never sinned. I bet you can guess who that one person was.
*****" Mary is called the Mother of Divine Grace.."
Where is that title used in the Bible?
*****"she also may be called DIVINE MOTHER!"
"Divine Mother" is an occultic term.
Mary is not God, therefore she is not divine. Your belief is not Biblical, it is occultic.
That should bother you.
" Explained in TRUE DEVOTION TO MARY"
Hey, you need to put the quote you are referring to in there so I can see exactly what you are responding to.