Pope makes pilgrimage to Mary statue in Rome, marking the feast of the Immaculate Conception

Catholic News Agency ^ | December 8, 2005

[ventana]

Yes, we only worship the triune God. Absolutely. But we remember the Advent moment by meditating on these words:

My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord (we join Mary in this)

My spirit rejoices in God my savior

for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant (because of this, we participate, too)

From this day all generations will call me blessed:

the Almighty has done great things for me

and holy is his Name

He has mercy on those who fear him

in every generation

He has shown the strength of his arm

he has scattered the proud in their conceit.

He has cast down the mighty from their thrones

and has lifted up the lowly

He has filled the hungry with good things

and the rich he has sent away empty.

He has come to the help of his serrvant Israel

for he has remembered his promise of mercy He remembers this promise of mercy through Mary! After all was said and done from Abraham, Israel, Moses, and so on these Patriarchs are dwarfed for He remembers His promise throught this young woman: Mary, the most highly favored one. God doesn't just select any old Abraham, Israel, or Moses. These were specific people. And she was the one proclaimed: full of grace by the angel of the Lord

the promise he made to our fathers,

to Abraham and his children for ever.

She is our spiritual Mother, .30 Carbine, she is His Mother, and the Almighty's most chaste spouse. It is scriptural.

Lastly:Jhn 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Jhn 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home].

He gave her to us, .30Carbine: John is us, and we must care for her rightful place and honor her.This is not worshipping her, however. V's wife

[ventana]

Well, cats can't love. What are you getting at, and why play cat and mouse with it? So to speak. :) V's wife.

[ventana]

"Campion, I appreciate your statement because I know it comes from an honest heart, but can you explain to me how my failure to believe in the extra-biblical idea that salvation is dependent o­n Mary puts me in danger of sliding into a cult? "

And yet, again PM, Rev. 12, in my Bible and Yours. Those who profess the testimony of Jesus Christ, all of 'em, are identified as the children of Mary.

So? Are you one of us?

[PetroniusMaximus]

"And yet, again PM, Rev. 12, in my Bible and Yours. Those who profess the testimony of Jesus Christ, all of 'em, are identified as the children of Mary."

Spouse of ventana, the identification of the woman of Rev 12 is highly problematic even from a Catholic viewpoint!

Notice - she had pain in childbirth. Mary, according to Catholic tradition, had no pain. (It would be comparable to having Christ as a symbolic figure in a passage and showing that symbolic figure sinning in some ways).

Additionally she had many children. Mary, according to Catholic tradition, had only one child.

The better identification is that she is the heavenly Jerusalem, the true Israel, in the OT the wife of God.




P.S. you are posting enough that should get your own account - how about "Mr. ventana"?

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Well, cats can't love. "

Your right. I should have said dogs!




"What are you getting at, and why play cat and mouse with it? So to speak. :)"

This is what I am getting at with the question. Why go to someone who loves you less to make an appeal to someone who loves you more?

Jesus is infinite God. He love you infinitely. Mary is fininte. She loves you infinitely less than Jesus. So why go to Mary to get to Jesus (never mind the fact that the Bible says there is one mediator between God and man)?


The Bible says that if we come by the blood of Jesus that we can boldly come to the throne of grace to find help in time of need. It doesn't say we need to come through Mary.

[Rosary]

It is so Jesus is eternal because He is of the Holy Trinity, BUT the Father so WILLED he become a God-man through MAry. Thus He also created MAry to be the Mother of Jesus for this purpose. Jesus Christ IS TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN.
MAry is HIS Divine and most pure Mother by the singular GRACE of GOD.
And Jesus I am SURE would not like anyone slapping His MOM down so watch it!

[PetroniusMaximus]

******" It is so Jesus is eternal because He is of the Holy Trinity, BUT the Father so WILLED he become a God-man through MAry"

Agreed.




******"MAry is HIS Divine and most pure Mother by the singular GRACE of GOD."

Mary is not "Divine".

Divine means having the nature of or being a deity.



******"And Jesus I am SURE would not like anyone slapping His MOM down so watch it!"

As I have posted elsewhere: This is NOT an attack o­n Mary! I believe everything the Bible says about Mary - that she was a pure and humble haindmaden of the Lord, but nevertheless a sinner in need of a Savior.

My comments are a defense of the Mary of the Bible from those who wish to inflate her into some type of semi-divine, female Savior.

[ventana]

Well, of course we can go boldly to the throne of grace. But we can also go to one another and ask for prayers, so why not Mary and the Saints? If we can ask each other,it seems a bit of a snub to ignore Mary. Yes pain in childbirth is something Mary would logically not have suffered, but there is no doubt that Mary is referenced in Apocalypse (from New Advent): In the Apocalypse (12:1-6) occurs a passage singularly applicable to Our Blessed Mother: And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems; and his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven; and cast them to the earth; and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod; and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days. The applicability of this passage to Mary is based on the following considerations: * At least part of the verses refer to the mother whose son is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; according to Psalm 2:9, this is the Son of God, Jesus Christ, Whose mother is Mary. * It was Mary's son that "was taken up to God, and to his throne" at the time of His Ascension into heaven. * The dragon, or the devil of the earthly paradise (cf. Apocalypse 12:9; 20:2), endeavoured to devour Mary's Son from the first moments of His birth, by stirring up the jealousy of Herod and, later on, the enmities of the Jews. * Owing to her unspeakable privileges, Mary may well be described as "clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars". * It is true that commentators generally understand the whole passage as applying literally to the Church, and that part of the verses is better suited to the Church than to Mary. But it must be kept in mind that Mary is both a figure of the Church, and its most prominent member. What is said of the Church, is in its own way true of Mary. Hence the passage of the Apocalypse (12:5-6) does not refer to Mary merely by way of accommodation [108], but applies to her in a truly literal sense which appears to be partly limited to her, and partly extended to the whole Church. Mary's relation to the Church is well summed up in the expression "collum corporis mystici" applied to Our Lady by St. Bernardin of Siena. [109]

This reverence of her is from the very earliest days as attested to by the Christians of the Catacombs. Were these early believers wrong? They venerated her. I am tossing my coin with them. V's wife.

[PetroniusMaximus]

" It is true that commentators generally understand the whole passage as applying literally to the Church, and that part of the verses is better suited to the Church than to Mary. "

You see, they admit it right there. The rest of the commentary has no Biblical support (that's why they offer no references).

But it isn't the "Church" as in the RCC. It's the "Church" like the Remnant, the Messianic community stretching back into the OT.

It's the true Israel.

[The Cuban]

Yeaits what's beleived. WHat you think that when we are risen up, we are physically limited as in this earth?

[The Cuban]

Again, jumping to faulty conclusions, and beleiving them.

[The Cuban]

Thanks, petronius for being omniscient and knowing for a fact that her statement is blasphemous. As hard as it is for you to accept, you too will become catholic at the moment of your death, when the reality of God's plan is revealed to you upon your death. Silly man.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Again, jumping to faulty conclusions"

Can you elaborate???

[Ciexyz]

I'm reminded of the recent controversy of the South Park episode denigrating Mary, and the two recent threads where certain FReepers vigorously defended the sacrilege and jumped all over me for calling it trash. Oh well!

[The Cuban]

You just gloss over the fact that Catholic Doctrine teaches that 1) Jesus is the only mediator; and 2) the ultimate judge. Yet you insist that this is not what the Church beleives! You insist on taking other Catholic beleifs that are not contradictory to this, but which to your limited mind beleiver are similar, and again, because of your limited mind, you automatically jump to the faulty conclusion that since they are similar they are the same. Sometime, you should actually sit down and read a book on Catholic belief, and not a book on supposed Catholic beleifs. Remember your perception of what Catholic's beleive (and your sincere beleif in your personal infallibility) are not actual Catholic beleifs.

[PetroniusMaximus]

*****"Thanks, petronius for being omniscient and knowing for a fact that her statement is blasphemous."

To claim that a created being and an Eternal God love you equally is blaspheme. Jesus said:

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." - John 15:13

And Paul says...

"but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.... For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his" life." - Rom 5

According to Jesus, humans are only capable of so much love. On the other hand, God is capable of infinitely more.

The blaspheme is to place Jesus and Mary on equal footing.





*****"As hard as it is for you to accept, you too will become catholic at the moment of your death, when the reality of God's plan is revealed to you upon your death."

The reality of God's plan has already been revealed to us in the Bible. I don't have to wait until death. Neither do you .

Ephesians 3:5
"Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;"

[The Cuban]

Yes, that it, God revealed all in the Bible. (which by the way was written by Catholics)

[The Cuban]

And more over, you are in one sense correct, the revealed word of God support the Catholic position. But the true meaning of those words, which you so deliberately insist on misinterpreting, WILL be revealed to you upon your death. Thats all. You can't lie to yourself in the afterlife Petronio.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"You just gloss over the fact that Catholic Doctrine teaches that 1) Jesus is the only mediator;"

Wrong, friend. Catholic doctrine is that there is one mediator between God and man - Jesus. But there is also a mediator between Jesus and man - Mary.




"Sometime, you should actually sit down and read a book on Catholic belief,"

If it is in the Bible , shouldn't I have been able to have found it there?

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Yes, that it, God revealed all in the Bible"

So why do I need to wait till death to find out?




" (which by the way was written by Catholics)"

The NT (except perhaps Luke) was written by Jewish Christians. They never called themselves "Catholic".