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The History of the Reformation…We Are all Beggars…(Part 12)
Arlington Presbyterian Church ^ | January 16, 2005 | Tom Browning

Posted on 12/09/2005 11:58:25 PM PST by HarleyD

We come this morning to the end of our present study on the History of the Reformation. Now it is not really the end. It is simply the end of our time for the time being. There are other topics and other studies and other teachers that deserve a chance at your attention. Still, there is so much we could have looked at and ought to have looked at together and we will. We will come back later on and in a separate class examine Calvin and Swiss Reformers. After that, in still a different class we’ll look at the English Reformation and the rise of the Puritanism. Then finally in still a separate class we’ll look at the history of the how the Reformation worked its way into the life of America through men like Whitefield and Edwards.

All of that is on the docket and will occur, Lord willing, in the future.

For the present, however…it is time for me to draw our study to an end and yet I want you to know that I feel a measure of regret in doing so. There is so much I could have said and should have said and yet I have been constrained both by time and by my own inability to make some of these important issues come alive the way I really wanted. I know perfectly well for example that I have only scratched the surface of the beginning of the Protestant Reformation and of Luther’s life and work. I know I have glossed over many of the important people and events of Luther’s life. Nevertheless, I am trusting that in God’s kindness what we have studied together has given you a better understanding of things not just I perceived them but as they actually were.

I do want to thank you for your many words of encouragement.

You have consoled me with your kind comments and notes. I have been deeply encouraged by the fact that many of you have been encouraged to begin to study again the Reformation and the doctrine of justification and the life of Luther for yourself. I have been even more encouraged by those of you who are studying these things for yourself for the first time.

You could hardly do better and you could certainly do a lot worse.

And the reason for that, of course, is that in the Reformation as almost no where else in history the really important issues were actually the really important issues. The issues were the authority of the Bible, the content of the gospel and the mission and identity of the church. All of those issues are issues of life and death issues. All of those issues are issues of heaven or of hell.

All of those issues were just as important for farmers and tradesmen as they were for theologians. That is why I like the studying the Reformation. That is why I like studying Luther. That is why I like talking about the doctrine of justification.

They are all so imminently practical. For surely, no doctrine is more pertinent that the doctrine that will sustain us in that day in which we find ourselves standing before God Almighty in judgment. In that day, whether your car started every time or your children called as often as they ought to have done or your prescriptions got filled on time or your checkbook balanced or your husband showed you the attention you were due will not matter to you one single whit.

All of those things will melt into the recesses of your mind and care. All the things…all those things that you thought were so practical and relevant will be taken over by one, single, overarching concern and that is what God will do with you and why. That is what will ultimately matter. It is ultimately the most practical thing a person will ever know.

I think Luther understood that. I think he understood that at the very core of his being. Or to say it another way…I think Luther believed that the gospel could even save a Christian. I think he believed that the gospel could even save him.

Now that sounds like a strange thing to say. I mean Christians are already saved aren’t they? But what I mean by the gospel being able to save Christians is that the comfort of the gospel is able to provide encouragement to strengthen a Christian to continue to work and serve and live even in the midst of otherwise debilitating grief, suffering and sorrow. The gospel can actually redeem a person’s life from the pit, even if they are already a Christian.

I think there is no better evidence to prove that than the way Luther died.

Now the remarkable thing about Luther’s death is that very few of his biographers really touch upon it. Roland Bainton, for example, the author of Here I Stand: A Life of Martin Luther writes:

Now what is funny about Bainton saying that is that he does in his book exactly what he says all the other biographers do. He simply leaves out the details of Luther’s death altogether. Like so many of Luther’s biographers Bainton more or less has Luther ride off into the sunset. But Luther did not ride off into the sunset. He died and his death, to my way of thinking, was a wonderfully Christian death.

Now how a man or woman died was considered to be much more important in Luther’s day than it is in ours. You see in his day, the manner is which a man or woman died bore important testimony to their faith. In our day, death is often masked over by drugs and pain medication. We seem to have the idea that death is something that ought to be slipped into like an old easy chair or an old pair of house shoes. But in Luther’s day, they did not have any of the modern capabilities we do and men and women often died speaking and encouraging those around them. A person’s last words were believed to characterize the heart and belief of the person who died. You can see how Luther’s death might have been of intense interest to his enemies. Had he died poorly, his death might have been held up and a visual parable of the fact that his life and faith were less than heroic.

Now I think that is what most of his enemies expected. I think they expected him to die a violent and shameful death. I think they expected him to recant his views and to lapse back into his pre-Reformation views and beliefs. I think even some of his friends expected him to die poorly. I think they expected that Luther’s impetuous nature and fiery temper would come back to haunt him but they were wrong about that. Luther died trying to make peace…trying to reconcile two brothers back in his home town of Mansfield.

Now I think that is remarkable. I think everyone that reads about the death of Luther is sort of taken back by that fact. That is…I think they are taken back by the fact that Luther ever devoted any of his time to trying to reconcile anyone.

You see most people only think of Luther the fighter and there is a reason for that. You see sometimes Luther could be quite contentious. I know that is a shock to all of you to be told that only as we come to the end of our study. But he could be. When he was arguing for what he believed to be truth, he could be quite litigious. He was not above name calling and he was not above course language and by that I mean just plain old cursing.

Those that hated knew that very well but those that loved him knew it too.

Calvin once wrote about Luther, “Even if he calls me a dog, I will continue to call him father.”

Now why would Calvin have ever written that? I think he wrote it because he feared it as a very real possibility. You see Luther went after anyone whom he thought erred. Late in his life, he especially went after the Swiss and the Swiss reformers and that is surprising especially since they held so much truth in common. You would have thought Luther would have been a bit more pragmatic about whom he attacked but he was not. He only cared about the truth.

You can see that especially, I think, in Luther’s explosive reaction to Ulrich Zwingli.

Zwingli was the head of the Reformation in Zurich. He was an ardent fan of Erasmus and he was a military figure, as were almost all of the Swiss, and he was a wonderful classical scholar. Zwingli appreciated and admired Luther and Luther’s contribution to the Reformation. But he came to many of his own decisions about the Reformation independently of Luther and he disagreed with Luther over the issue of images and over the Lord’s Supper.2

Philip of Hesse, one of the most important nobles in Germany, thought it was important that their two groups unite against the catholic princes, tried to get the two men together to make peace. So they did meet and they tried to settle their differences at the Marburg Conference in October 1529 but were unable to get past the issue of the Lord’s Supper. Zwingli held that the Lord’s Table was simply a memorial in which Christians recalled the death of Christ in their partaking of the sacrament. In his view, he was very close to where most Baptists are today. Luther, on the other hand, held that Christ’s body was actually present in the elements…that is, in, with and through the elements and he deeply resented Zwingli minimizing Christ’s presence. They were unable, of course, to come to any sort of middle position. Luther probably did not help matters much.

You see when Luther first sat down at the table across from Zwingli he took a piece of chalk out of his pocket and drew a big circle on the black table cloth covering the table between them and wrote the words “This is my body” inside the circle. He said later that he hadn’t done it to try to intimidate Zwingli or anyone else but had simply done it to keep the main point of his argument fresh in his mind.

But you can see how it might not have helped and it is so Luther-like.

Anyway they were unable to come to any sort of middle position and Luther later wrote:

That is the way Luther was. He was fairly inflexible. He was dogmatic. He was intransigent. He could not and would not nuance anything. In the years between 1529 and 1545, Luther wrote against the Swiss and the Anabaptists and many others with almost reckless abandon. In fact, in 1545 Calvin wrote this protest to Melanchthon, Luther’s assistant.

But Calvin’s words didn’t really change Luther very much. I doubt if Melanchthon ever even raised Calvin’s concerns with Luther. He was to the end quite obstinate in his opposition to what he perceived to be error. But I for one am glad about that. I am glad that he was the kind of man that he was. A lesser man could not have endured the times. Still, I wince at some of the things Luther said. In fact, when Zwingli was later killed in a battle against Catholic forces Luther said, “It was a judgment for his views.”5

However, if you read the account of Zwingli’s death written by Martin Bucer you’ll find that Zwingli’s death was pretty noble. He was mortally wounded first by hurled rock and then by a lance and when some of the soldiers of the Catholic opposition stopped to ask him if he needed a priest he just lay there under a pear tree looking up to heaven with his hands folded on his chest and shook his head no. When they asked him if he wanted an image of the Virgin Mary he again shook his head no. Then they asked him if he was a heathen and he shook his head no and then, of course, they figured out who he really was…and ran him through and then quartered his body and burned the pieces in a fire mixing his ashes with the intestines of a hog they had killed earlier but that is beside the point.

He died as well as anyone has ever died on a battlefield.

But I digress. The point I was making is that Luther’s death was important to Luther’s friends and foes alike. Everyone wanted to know how Luther died and when I say that I don’t mean that they were interested in a forensic analysis of what killed him but rather the manner in which he faced death. The question everyone wanted to know was, “Did Luther’s faith sustain him in his hour of death?” Now what I want to do in the few minutes we have left this morning is just relate the events of his death to you and let you decide for yourself.

In December of 1545, Luther was called to act as a peacemaker between two brothers who happened also to be nobles…they were counts…and they ruled in the province in which he was born, the province of Mansfield. The two brothers were named Albrecht and Gerhard. Now this particular Albrecht is not the same Albrecht who had started the indulgence controversy. He was a different man altogether who just happened to have the same name as Luther’s old nemesis, the Archbishop of Mainz. Now this man named Count Albrecht had already caused Luther and Luther’s family a measure of discouragement and grief. As Count of Mansfield he had attempted to bring all of the copper smelting in the region under his control. Now you will remember that Luther’s father had owned and run several copper smelters. Well, Luther’s brother and brother in law also ran copper smelters and it turned out that Albrecht wanted to bring all of the copper smelters in Mansfield under his control…up until that time the copper smelters had owned their leases by hereditary right. Now the reason Albrecht wanted to do that was so he could sell off of the leases and increase his tax revenue. For Albrecht it was a good business decision. For Luther and his family, it appeared as if Albrecht was trying to ruin them. Luther protested to Albrecht on behalf of his brother and his brother in law and wrote Albrecht a very nasty letter explaining to him that the reason Albrecht struggled so hard to understand the doctrine of predestination was because he was abusing his poor subjects with excessive taxation. In other words, Luther told him that his sin had darkened his ability to understand God’s truth. One historian says that when Albrecht received Luther’s letter he grew so angry he threw it down on the floor and jumped up and down on it stomping it in a fit of anger.6 Luther had the ability to bring that out in people even as an old man.

Anyway, Albrecht’s brother Gerhard owed Albrecht a sum of money and Albrecht forced him to transfer both his debts and income to him until Gerhard made good his debt. Once he gained control over Gerhard’s income he raised taxes on all of Gerhard’s subjects basically trying to squeeze every last drop of money he could out of his brother and his brother’s subjects. Luther and everyone else understood and despised Albrecht’s greed. Luther appealed to the Elector John Frederick and eventually Albrecht was arrested and put in jail which further increased the instability of the region.

Luther thought a little jail time would do Albrecht some good.

But he also saw that prolonged disharmony and instability in an evangelical province was bad for Reformation. So, he set about to negotiate a settlement between the two brothers and to restore order and peace to the province.

Now I want you to think about that. Luther was at that time the most famous man in the world and he was involved in negotiating a financial settlement between two brothers who were out to wreck each other and he did that for he perceived to be the benefit of the Kingdom of God. It is a very strange thing historically.

It would have been a little like have Billy Graham negotiating a settlement between two Tarrant county commissioners. He was a very big gun mediating a very small dispute. But the reason he did that, of course, is that he understood the tenuous nature of the Reformation. He wanted to maintain peace among the evangelicals so they would be united when the catholic princes finally assembled to try to undo the Reformation.

Luther would not live to see the war but he anticipated it perfectly.

So Luther took Melanchthon and went down to Eisleben to negotiate a settlement between the two men. While they were there Melanchthon got sick and Luther felt compelled to take him back home. That meant, of course, that later in the month Luther would have to return by himself.

Near the end of January 1546, Luther and three of his sons set off again for Eisleben. It was very cold. Luther’s wife Katy and Melanchthon both were very worried about him. He seemed very feeble.

Still he went. When they came to a river swollen with winter rain and huge ice flows, they were unable to pass. (In a letter to his wife he wrote that the river was a huge female Anabaptist that wanted to baptize him all over again.7) Luther stayed in the town next to the river and preached on the Apostle Paul’s conversion. He encouraged the saints there to venerate the Apostle Paul by holding to his doctrine and not by venerating his relics.

The people of Mansfield sent sixty armed riders to help him cross the river. Luther began to feel dizzy and fainted. Everyone assumed it was because he was so cold from crossing the river.

When he got to Eisleben he stayed with the city clerk. The people of the city furnished him all of the beer and wine he could drink.

He preached in Eisleben four times. He preached on January 31st, February 2nd, February 7th and February 14th. On the 14th, he oversaw the ordination of two new ministers.

The various groups involved in the negotiations met every two or three days simply because Luther was unable to meet more often. He sat through and involved himself in the negotiations although he found them extremely tedious. He was so weak that he was only able to participate for an hour to an hour and half at a time.

He wrote in a Bible in his room, “If the Son is for us, who can be against us?” Katy became desperately worried about Luther.

Luther chided her lack of faith, as if God could not create “ten Doctor Martins” if one of them died: “Free me from your worries. I have a caretaker who is better than you and all the angels; he lies in the cradle and rests on a virgin’s bosom, and yet, nevertheless, he sits at the right hand of God, the almighty Father. Therefore be at peace. Amen.”8

On February 16th, Luther’s secretary John Aurifaber found a piece of paper in Luther’s room on which Luther wrote in German, “We are all beggars this is true.”

Shortly after supper on the seventeenth, Luther went, as was his custom, to his room to pray at the window. He began to feel a terrible tightness in his chest almost certainly an attack of angina pectoris. About ten o’clock Luther lay down in his bed. He began to quietly say to himself Psalm 31:5.

Count Albrecht and his wife arrived and Count Albrecht’s wife gave him a medication made of grated unicorn and no I have no idea what that might have actually been. Luther slept for an hour or so.

At about one o’clock Luther awakened with another attack of pain. He expected matter-of-factly that he would die in the city where he had been born and baptized. He moved again from the bedchamber to the day bed in the room and once more commended his soul to God. They sought to warm him with hot towels. His hosts, the city clerk Johann Albrecht and his wife, were summoned, along with the two physicians of the city and finally Count Albrecht himself and his wife, Anna, who was familiar with drugs. The pain and fear continued. When he began to sweat, Luther saw it as a symptom of death. In a prayer he gave thanks to the God of all comfort, the Father of Jesus Christ, that he had revealed to him his Son, “whom I have believed, whom I have loved, whom I have preached, confessed, and praised, whom the pope and all the godless revile and blaspheme.” Here once again he named the content of this life in a positive and definitive way Luther commended his “little soul” to the Lord Christ. He was sure that death would not be able to snatch him from God’s hand. He based this on John 3:16: Anyone who believes in the Son, whom God gave in love, will not perish, but have eternal life. He stood firm in the words of Ps. 68:20: “Our God is a God of salvation; and to God, fix belongs escape from death.” Echoing the words of the aged Simeon (Luke 2:29) he said with confidence: “Lord, let now thou thy servant depart in peace. Amen.” Finally, he repeated Psalm 31:5 three more times, and became silent.

Countess Anna especially tried to revive Luther by rubbing him with vinegar and aqua vitae. Jonas and Coelius shouted loudly, “Reverend father are you ready to die trusting in your Lord Jesus Christ and to confess doctrine which you have taught in his name?” A distinct “Yes” was his reply. With his final word Luther had made a confession of his cause. This was significant. After this he fell asleep and responded no more. His face became pale; his feet and nose grew cold. At about a quarter to three he took a breath and gave up his spirit. The reporters emphasized that Luther died peacefully.

The accounts of Luther’s death show again how deeply piety had been altered by him. All sacramental elements were missing. Of course, the no extreme unction, but neither did Luther make any last confession, although he treasured the practice of confession itself. Understandably, no last communion was offered, for Luther had otherwise had great reluctance about this practice. He had received the Lord’s Supper the Sunday before. Thus there were no priestly ministrations at all at his death. It was almost exclusively Luther himself who spoke, not the others present. This may have been a mark of respect in the face of his authority His last statements consisted primarily of brief, confident prayers to God and Christ, including the traditional deathbed prayer from Ps. 31:5. The recitation of Bible passages served to reassure him. His confidence corresponded to the confession of God and Christ that was his life’s work. Jonas and Coelius asked him expressly to confirm this at the end. Unlike the earlier situations when his life was threatened nothing is known about any word to his sons who were present or a final greeting to Katy. For the dying man, that was obviously not as important as his relationship to God and his vocation.9

The people of Eisleben prepared Luther’s body for burial. They appealed to the Elector John Frederick to allow them to bury Luther in the town where he had both born and had died. John Frederick said that, if necessary, he would send troops to collect Luther’s body and return it to Wittenberg. They complied. Luther’s pewter coffin started home in a wagon.

Along the way, massive crowds turned out to see him pass by. Thousands…tens of thousands paid their respects.

On February 22, 1546 Martin Luther was buried in the Castle Church at Wittenberg, the same Castle Church to which he had nailed his 95 Theses. He was buried in the floor of the church…directly at the foot of the pulpit. Melanchthon delivered his eulogy and when he did he tried to explain Luther’s impact on the world. He was quick to add that Luther had faults, many faults. But he was even quicker to add that God had used Luther to restore the gospel and that Luther had stood in the line of great prophets like Elijah, Jeremiah and John the Baptist. I think he was right but I think Luther had he heard it would have laughed out loud.

Let’s pray.

1 Roland Bainton, Here I Stand: A Life of Martin Luther, (New York: Abingdon Press, 1950), 373.
2 Robert C. Walton, “The Spread of the Zwingli Reformation” from Christian History Magazine Volume 3, No. 1, 1984, 33. “You would have cleansed the Augean stable, if you had had the images removed, if you had not taught that the body of Christ was supposed to be eaten in the bread.”
3 J. H. Merle D’Aubigne, History of the Reformation of the 16th Century, Book 11, Chapter 11, 1039- 40.
4 John Calvin, Selected Works of Calvin Volume 4, 1545, Letter 136. Parts of the letter are paraphrased or modernized by me for the sake of clarity.
5 Roland Bainton, 322. In Table Talk #291 Luther is recorded as saying, “The end of all heresy is the sword. We see this in the case of the pope, Münzer, Zwingli, the Arians, etc. They all started out [with a certain show of piety], but in the end they were driven to the sword. They were at first not wanting in the will [to carry out their intentions] but they didn’t have the opportunity. Satan, as Paul said, can’t deny himself. He must show himself to be a liar and murderer. Moreover, I think that Cain’s death also caused a great outcry. They said, ‘Behold, Lamech has killed our father,’ etc.”
6 Martin Brecht, Martin Luther: The Preservation of the Church 1532-1546 (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1993), 369.
7 Brecht, 371.
8 Brecht, 373.
9 Brecht, 376-7.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; History; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: history; luther; reformation
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Previous Sermons…

For the history from the Roman Catholic perspective I would recommend the following posts:


1 posted on 12/09/2005 11:58:28 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

History Ping...


2 posted on 12/10/2005 12:00:37 AM PST by HarleyD ("Command what you will and give what you command." - Augustine's Prayer)
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To: HarleyD
God had used Luther to restore the gospel

This is laughable. If Luther had read the Gospel, it never showed.

3 posted on 12/10/2005 12:46:25 AM PST by annalex
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To: HarleyD

I love this piece. Luther was so human and ornery. As the writer said, a lesser man could not have taken the abuse he endured.

"Here I Stand". Amen!


4 posted on 12/10/2005 5:53:17 AM PST by bonfire (dwindler)
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To: bonfire; HarleyD
I agree. May God imbue us all with the passion Luther felt for Scripture and the will of God.

I recommend to everyone the recent film, "Luther."


5 posted on 12/10/2005 11:17:49 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (Semper eo pro iocus.)
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To: HarleyD
Thank you, Harley, for all the work and time you put into posting these wonderful threads.

Book-marked for remembrance of God's faithful servant.

THE NECESSITY OF REFORMING THE CHURCH

"...the restoration of the church is the work of God, and no more depends on the hopes and opinions of men, than the resurrection of the dead, or any other miracle of that description. Here, therefore, we are not to wait for facility of action, either from the will of men, or the temper of the times, but must rush forward through the midst of despair. It is the will of our Master that his gospel be preached. Let us obey his command, and follow whithersoever he calls. What the success will be it is not ours to inquire. Our only duty is to wish for what is best, and beseech it of the Lord in prayer; to strive with all zeal, solicitude, and diligence, to bring about the desired result, and, at the same time, to submit with patience to whatever that result may be." -- John Calvin

6 posted on 12/10/2005 11:22:40 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (Semper eo pro iocus.)
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To: HarleyD
bttt
7 posted on 12/10/2005 5:27:55 PM PST by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get out of the Way!)
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To: HarleyD
bttt
8 posted on 12/10/2005 5:28:04 PM PST by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get out of the Way!)
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To: HarleyD
Tomorrow in SS we will be reading & studying & discussing Part 11.

I was baptized as an infant & confirmed in the old ELC; then much later I was (re)Baptized as a believer. I would never quibble with him regarding infant baptism or even Consubstantiation. After being re-introduced to Luther by my ex-Lutheran (LCMS) Pastor I have read & re-read Bondage of the Will. In it Luther commended Erasmus for, alone among all his critics & enemies, recognizing the issue; which was, from Johnston & Packer’s intro, “The whole work of man’s salvation, first to last, is God’s; and all the glory for it must be God’s also.”

9 posted on 12/10/2005 8:17:37 PM PST by Dahlseide (TULIP)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

I STILL haven't seen "Luther". My mother saw it at the theater and said it was amazing.


10 posted on 12/11/2005 8:51:57 AM PST by bonfire (dwindler)
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To: annalex

"God had used Luther to restore the gospel"

"This is laughable. If Luther had read the Gospel, it never showed."

It's easy enough to say that, but it's much more difficult to prove that. Luther read the Gospel, and the Law, and the Church Fathers; his writings clearly show that. That he came up with a different conclusion is obvious. Beware of contempt for your opponents; it can lead to pratfalls in the long run.


11 posted on 12/11/2005 11:12:14 AM PST by GAB-1955 (being dragged, kicking and screaming, into the Kingdom of Heaven....)
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To: Dahlseide; HarleyD; bonfire
"The whole work of man's salvation, first to last, is God's; and all the glory for it must be God's also."

Amen. That single, factual light-bulb recognition unites every Reformed believer who knows all of salvation, but most especially its inception and completion, is by the will of God alone.

It's either/or; black/white; God ordained/man accomplished.

Either God chose His elect from before the foundation of the world based upon NOTHING in the creature, but according to His sovereign will alone (all men being equally fallen and unable to perform anything God-pleasing), or man has some part in the acquisition of his salvation (which incorrectly presupposes some men are better, smarter, more pious than other men because they "choose" correctly.)

"Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." -- John 6:29

Either/or.

Since so many of us started out as Arminians (the cultural bias of modern man), we've experienced firsthand this gradual, inevitable progression from Arminian to Reformed, from man to God, from 50/50 to 0/100, from me to only Him, from possibility to predestiny, from hope to true assurance.

12 posted on 12/11/2005 1:39:11 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (Semper eo pro iocus.)
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To: GAB-1955

I specifically think that Luther missed the meaning of most gospels, in particular, Matthew, as he developed his theory of salvation through faith alone. While we all agree that works done mechanically, without conversion of the heart, are not salvific, works of charity that fortify faith are clearly commanded by Christ. It is of course a gross simplification to say that Luther never read the gospels, and I say so somewhat humorously, but I think that his theory was speculative theology with narrow scriptural support in some passages in Romans and Galatians, which he interpreted in a way that contradicts the bulk of the gospel.


13 posted on 12/11/2005 1:46:52 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex; HarleyD
Good works are the result of our regeneration by God, not the cause of it.

Scripture is clear that fallen man can do nothing God-pleasing. All his works are as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).

Romans 3:10-12, 23 -- "As it is written, There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

***Romans 7:18 -- "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not."

***Romans 8:5-8 -- "For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

***1 Corinthians 2:14 -- "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

*** John 3:18-21 -- "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

To say man accomplishes his own salvation by the piety of his works usurps the atonement of Jesus Christ and gives natural man an inherent righteousness he does not possess.

By Adam's fall, all men are equally condemned. Only God's grace saves anyone, ordained by Him from before the foundation of the world, according to His will alone through faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It's so much simpler than many would have it.

All of Him; none of us.

14 posted on 12/11/2005 2:39:04 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (Semper eo pro iocus.)
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To: annalex
I would agree that works of charity are commanded by Christ; however, the issue is can works of charity save you? No. He commanded we obey the law, but we cannot. Without divine mercy, we could not be save.

I would also say that Luther's theory is not speculative. Augustine preceded it in his disputes with Pelagius.
15 posted on 12/12/2005 6:45:40 AM PST by GAB-1955 (being dragged, kicking and screaming, into the Kingdom of Heaven....)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; GAB-1955
My post you are responding to says in part:
we all agree that works done mechanically, without conversion of the heart, are not salvific, works of charity that fortify faith are clearly commanded by Christ.
It is not pelagianusm. Indeed, as St. Paul indicates in many passages, good works are work of the divine grace within us.

The question is (1) are good works commanded, and the scriptural answer is yes (Luke 18:18 and on); and (2) are good works when prompted by faith contributing to salvation, and the scriptural answer is yes (Math 25).

Nothing in Paul contradicts that, and of course it can't because Paul is an apostle of Christ.

16 posted on 12/12/2005 7:06:32 AM PST by annalex
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To: annalex

You are right, but who gives us that faith? God does. God places a conscience in us with an inner law, as Paul notes; however, we cannot obey the law and would not choose the things of God unless He converted us, and this work is the work of the Holy Spirit. So far, we're on the same page.

The real difference in Protestant theology from Catholic is that we believe the work is God's alone, and man cannot cooperate in the work of salvation. Once there is saving faith, good works result (I would say that our posts to each other would be very minor examples), but that faith is planted and not infused into us.


17 posted on 12/12/2005 7:39:33 AM PST by GAB-1955 (being dragged, kicking and screaming, into the Kingdom of Heaven....)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
To say man accomplishes his own salvation by the piety of his works usurps the atonement of Jesus Christ and gives natural man an inherent righteousness he does not possess.

Glad to see you agree with the Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, canon #1.

18 posted on 12/12/2005 9:18:13 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: GAB-1955
The real difference in Protestant theology from Catholic is that we believe the work is God's alone, and man cannot cooperate in the work of salvation.

Would you say that man enabled by grace cannot cooperate in any part of his justification or sanctification?

If you said merely that the unjustified man apart from the grace of God cannot cooperate, we can agree with you. If you say that the man enabled by grace cannot cooperate, we can't.

19 posted on 12/12/2005 9:20:41 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: GAB-1955
I don't understand the difference between planted and infused.

Once there is saving faith, good works result

Why then does Christ command works in Luke 18 and Matthew 25? If faith is like a switch that can only go from Off to On position forever, why do the apostles ask Christ to increase their faith (Luke 17:5)? How and why would you want to increase what has already saved you?

Let us read this (Luke 17):

6 And the Lord said: If you had faith like to a grain of mustard seed, you might say to this mulberry tree, Be thou rooted up, and be thou transplanted into the sea: and it would obey you. 7 But which of you having a servant ploughing, or feeding cattle, will say to him, when he is come from the field: Immediately go, sit down to meat: 8 And will not rather say to him: Make ready my supper, and gird thyself, and serve me, whilst I eat and drink, and afterwards thou shalt eat and drink? 9 Doth he thank that servant, for doing the things which he commanded him? 10 I think not. So you also, when you shall have done all these things that are commanded you, say: We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which we ought to do.
Note that the faith is likened to a tiny, yet miraculously powerful seed (is it why faith is "planted?). What do we do with seeds? -- We grow them. That demands work, and in fact, unceasing work. Those who wish to take a rest from working on their faith Christ condemns as unprofitable servants. This parable is directly aimed at Luther's once-saved-forever-saved theory. Do you suppose Luther read it?
20 posted on 12/12/2005 9:34:46 AM PST by annalex
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To: Campion; GAB-1955; HarleyD; suzyjaruki; RnMomof7
LOL. You guys need to get your talking points in order.

Council of Trent:  Canons on Justification...

Lutheranism was growing strong in the 1500's.  In response to this, the Roman Catholic church convened a council in November of 1544 in an attempt to counter the doctrines raised and supported by the Reformers.  The official opening of the council was on Dec. 13, 1545 and was closed on Dec. 14, 1563.  The council delivered many statements on various subjects.  These Canons have never been denied by the Roman Catholic Church.

Following are several of the doctrinal statements made on Justification at the council of Trent.  After each Canon are scriptures that contradict that Canon.  These scriptures are linked to the KJV on CARM so you can click on them and read them in context.

Finally, you will see the word "anathema" used many times by the Council.  This means that those who disagree with the doctrines of this Council are cursed.  In Gal. 1:8-9, the word "anathema" is used.  The curse must come from God.  Therefore, we conclude that according to Roman Catholicism, anyone who disagrees with the following Canons are cursed of God.  The Roman Catholic church excommunicates those under anathema.  In other words, excommunication means being outside the Christian church.  Being outside the church means you are not saved.

In spite of what Catholicism states, the Bible speaks differently.  Following each Canon is a list of appropriate scriptures countering the Catholic position.

CANON 9:  "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

A. "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin," (Rom. 3:20).

B. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," (Rom. 3:24).

C. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28).

D. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).

E. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).

F. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8).

G. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost," (Titus 3:5).

CANON 12:  "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ...let him be accursed"

...

A. "This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned."


Ah, that would be me and mine, according to Trent and all subsequent Popes and current church doctrine who and which have affirmed Trent's curses to this very day.

21 posted on 12/12/2005 10:22:31 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (Semper eo pro iocus.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
You guys need to get your talking points in order.

We try to deal in facts.

A. "This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned."

That's not a quotation from the council.

Ah, that would be me and mine, according to Trent and all subsequent Popes and current church doctrine who and which have affirmed Trent's curses to this very day.

It's nice to make up facts like that in order to keep the hostilities alive, but the facts are these:

  1. An "anathema" was a formal excommunication. It didn't damn anyone any more than any other excommunication did; it did cut them off from the sacraments and consign them to the mercy of God.
  2. Like all ecclesiastical discipline, it applied only to Catholics and those who claimed to be. Non-Catholics aren't subject to canonical penalty.
  3. The penalty of "anathema" doesn't exist in the (current) 1983 code of canon law anyway.
  4. The idea that all Protestants are certainly damned was clearly condemned in the letter of the Holy Office in regard to Fr. Feeney (1948). It was also rejected by Pope Pius IX back in the 1840's.
  5. There are plenty of Protestants who say (a) "Catholics are not Christians"; and (b) "Only Christians can be saved". What do you have to say to them?

22 posted on 12/12/2005 10:42:08 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: annalex
This is laughable. If Luther had read the Gospel, it never showed.

What is the gospel to you ?

23 posted on 12/12/2005 12:29:21 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: RnMomof7

The four canonical gospels, of St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, and St. John.


24 posted on 12/12/2005 12:34:00 PM PST by annalex
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To: Campion; Dr. Eckleburg
To say man accomplishes his own salvation by the piety of his works usurps the atonement of Jesus Christ and gives natural man an inherent righteousness he does not possess.

Glad to see you agree with the Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, canon #1.

The entire purpose of Trent was not to build sound doctrine it was to repudiate the man that showed the emperor had no clothes

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the Catholic doctrine of justification as set forth by the holy council in the present decree, derogates in some respect from the glory of God or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ, and does not rather illustrate the truth of our faith and no less the glory of God and of Christ Jesus, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 33).

The problem is that church not only cursed Luther, but Christ and the other authors of scripture

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment::9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls. Faith and belief are the flip sides of the same coin

BTW

The use of "alone" in Romans 3 has a history that preceeds Luther. Luther made in his defense of the added adverb were that it was demanded by the context and that sola was used in the theological tradition before him. Translations prior to Luther used the terminology of faith alone with respect to Romans 3:28. The Nuremberg Bible of 1483 had "allein durch den glauben," while the Italian Bibles of Geneva in 1476 and even 1538 had "per sola fide."

25 posted on 12/12/2005 1:03:43 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: annalex
The four canonical gospels, of St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, and St. John.

Were the gospels written and canonized when these words were penned? (and the other 80+ times the word appears in the NT )

Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Act 8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

The word gospel means GOOD NEWS what was the gospel that Jesus taught and that the apostles preached? What is the GOOD NEWS ?

26 posted on 12/12/2005 1:07:39 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: RnMomof7

I understand that the gospels were written and canonized after the living Gospel was preached, but I was talking about Luther ignoring the written gospels as he developed his theories.


27 posted on 12/12/2005 1:12:26 PM PST by annalex
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To: Campion
An "anathema" was a formal excommunication. It didn't damn anyone any more than any other excommunication did; it did cut them off from the sacraments and consign them to the mercy of God.

That is the politically correct answer, but is it the one INTENDED by the council at Trent?

1Cr 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

There was no church from which to be "excommunicated " when these words were penned

From the Greek

1) a thing set up or laid by in order to be kept
a) specifically, an offering resulting from a vow, which after being consecrated to a god was hung upon the walls or columns of the temple, or put in some other conspicuous place

2) a thing devoted to God without hope of being redeemed, and if an animal, to be slain; therefore a person or thing doomed to destruction

a) a curse

b) a man accursed, devoted to the direst of woes

They knew EXACTLY what they were writing and so do we.

28 posted on 12/12/2005 1:13:22 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Scripture is clear that fallen man can do nothing God-pleasing.

At least I can hope this means you accept the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

Merry Christmas.

29 posted on 12/12/2005 1:20:42 PM PST by Romulus (Quomodo sedet sola civitas plena populo.)
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To: annalex
I understand that the gospels were written and canonized after the living Gospel was preached, but I was talking about Luther ignoring the written gospels as he developed his theories.

So then the Gospel existed before the Gospels were written, so what is the Gospel? What is the "good news" that is contained in the Gospel and the other NT scripture?

BTW Luther read through the scriptures several times a year I believe, how often have you read through them?

30 posted on 12/12/2005 1:25:30 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Thanks for the recommendation. Is it on DVD yet?

I think Pope Benedict shares some of your admiration for Luther. I don't know a whole lot about him myself, other than the standard stuff.

It is my understanding though, that Luther and the Church were about to come to some sort of agreement when the Curia muddied up the waters by either reneging (sp?) on a point of agreement or trying to get a fast one by him.

In any case, Lord Acton's phrase surely comes to mind.


31 posted on 12/12/2005 1:44:21 PM PST by AlbionGirl
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To: RnMomof7
There was no church from which to be "excommunicated " when these words were penned

Of course there was.

However, the term took on a specific, technical meaning long after St. Paul wrote. By Tridentine times, there was a formal liturgy for an "anathema". Ever heard the phrase, "bell, book, and candle"?

They knew EXACTLY what they were writing and so do we.

In other words, "Campion, you've been a Catholic since you were six weeks old, and a Catholic apologist for the last twelve years. You've read Ott, and you've read the letter of the Holy Office in Re Father Feeney, but that doesn't matter, because I know what Trent meant, and you don't."

Thanks for your confidence in me. Happily, I'm quite confident that I know my religion better than you do, but I'm sorry that Protestants so frequently feel compelled to misrepresent it to score points.

32 posted on 12/12/2005 1:44:27 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: RnMomof7

My contention is that Luther's theories do not mesh very well with some words of Christ. Please see my post #20. I know that Luther in fact read the gospels, but apparently he did not retain their content. It is remarkable that all scripture references in support of Luther that I get, come from a few passages in Galatians and Romans, which confirms my belief that the gospels remain ignored by the Reformers, or if not ignored entirely then spun beyond all recognition to fit their speculative theology.


33 posted on 12/12/2005 1:56:02 PM PST by annalex
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To: Romulus
At least I can hope this means you accept the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

No, it means that even Mary could do nothing pleasing to God, He was however pleased with HIS work IN her.

Men can please other men, but God is only pleased with HIS WORK in them .

Hbr 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

He is pleased when we do the works he has foreordained for us to do . That is working His will in you

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God was pleased with His work in Mary.

Look to the source of the blessedness not the recipient for praise and glory

34 posted on 12/12/2005 2:09:15 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: Campion
In other words, "Campion, you've been a Catholic since you were six weeks old, and a Catholic apologist for the last twelve years. You've read Ott, and you've read the letter of the Holy Office in Re Father Feeney, but that doesn't matter, because I know what Trent meant, and you don't."
Thanks for your confidence in me. Happily, I'm quite confident that I know my religion better than you do, but I'm sorry that Protestants so frequently feel compelled to misrepresent it to score points.

I have read the scripture, the very word of God and the church chose that word very carefully, they wished luther in hell. But when those men look around they will not see him there

35 posted on 12/12/2005 2:11:41 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: annalex
My contention is that Luther's theories do not mesh very well with some words of Christ. Please see my post #20. I know that Luther in fact read the gospels, but apparently he did not retain their content. It is remarkable that all scripture references in support of Luther that I get, come from a few passages in Galatians and Romans, which confirms my belief that the gospels remain ignored by the Reformers, or if not ignored entirely then spun beyond all recognition to fit their speculative theology.

Do you have a problem verbalizing what the gospel is ? What is the gospel? What is the "good news" that Jesus preached?

36 posted on 12/12/2005 2:13:03 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: RnMomof7

The topic I prefer to stay on is, did Luther understand the four written gospels. Some other day we can discuss the unwritten Gospel.


37 posted on 12/12/2005 2:15:10 PM PST by annalex
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To: RnMomof7
I have read the scripture, the very word of God and the church chose that word very carefully, they wished luther in hell.

I don't care what they wished, and that isn't the issue.

Dr. E brought up the standard Protestant canard that Trent damns him and his family, and I refuted it.

I would be happy to have a beer with Luther in heaven as one good German to another; but in heaven, there is no beer, that's why we drink it here.

38 posted on 12/12/2005 2:18:00 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: annalex
The topic I prefer to stay on is, did Luther understand the four written gospels. Some other day we can discuss the unwritten Gospel.

But the gospel IS written, it is contained fully in the NT

I think that when you can tell us what gospel is then you can then accuse Luther of not knowing it, until then you have no credibility to make that accusation .

39 posted on 12/12/2005 2:22:06 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: Campion
I don't care what they wished, and that isn't the issue.

Well then please do not be an apologist for the hearts full of hate and retribution that penned them

40 posted on 12/12/2005 2:23:34 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: RnMomof7

The specific passages I'd like Luther to explain (no beer for me, thanks) from the viewpoint of his philosophy are listed in my 20, along with reasons why Luther does not understand them.


41 posted on 12/12/2005 2:26:10 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex
The specific passages I'd like Luther to explain (no beer for me, thanks) from the viewpoint of his philosophy are listed in my 20, along with reasons why Luther does not understand them.

I would say a man that can not present the gospel is in no position to judge the correctness of the teachings of Luther.

Paul addressed that very thing

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

42 posted on 12/12/2005 2:29:50 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: RnMomof7
Well then please do not be an apologist for the hearts full of hate and retribution that penned them

I'm an apologist for the Church of Jesus Christ.

If you want to talk "hate" and "retribution", Luther gave as good as he got. Maybe you'd like to post some of his more profane diatribes against Catholics and/or Jews so we can judge for ourself. "Papist ass" was one of his gentler insults.

43 posted on 12/12/2005 2:32:46 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: RnMomof7

Here St. Paul accuses Luther, whose tradition you are so rash to follow. The gospel Luther does not understand is presented in my #20, along with reasons why.


44 posted on 12/12/2005 2:34:33 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex
Here St. Paul accuses Luther, whose tradition you are so rash to follow. The gospel Luther does not understand is presented in my #20, along with reasons why.

You still have not told us what the good news is? Is it that men can now grow their own seeds?

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

So few realize that our faith to believe is actually a gift . It is Gods faith in us that saves us .

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him

.Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is] the gift of God:

Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

We are not looking at human hope or human faith .. but at a supernatural faith brought by God to the man . This is not faith the train will be on time or that the sun will rise in the morning ... This is a supernatural faith, to believe what others with human faith deny

1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

One does not work himself into faith .

What is the Good news ? What is the gospel? All Post 20 is is a defense of a work based salvation is that the gospel?

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

45 posted on 12/12/2005 2:48:20 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: Campion
I'm an apologist for the Church of Jesus Christ.

I am a simple woman that loves Christ and the gospel and wants to show others that are thirsty where to find the water so they will never thirst again.

46 posted on 12/12/2005 2:52:31 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: annalex
Here St. Paul accuses Luther, whose tradition you are so rash to follow. The gospel Luther does not understand is presented in my #20, along with reasons why.

In your own words, what is the gospel?

47 posted on 12/12/2005 2:53:15 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Hey, I just ordered this and the old black-n-white one about Luther on DVD. Should be here day after tomorrow. Thought we watch it with the family back home since the churches are shutting down. ;O)


48 posted on 12/12/2005 3:02:45 PM PST by HarleyD ("Command what you will and give what you command." - Augustine's Prayer)
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To: RnMomof7
I am a simple woman that loves Christ and the gospel and wants to show others that are thirsty where to find the water so they will never thirst again.

Then there would seem to be little to fight about.

You know, when More was condemned, he told the judges who condemned him that he looked forward to seeing them in heaven. I think you and I can at least say as much to each other, can we not?

49 posted on 12/12/2005 3:08:14 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: RnMomof7

Do you have a comment out of your own mind about the passages in Matthew and Luke I pointed out in #20? No, works based salvation is not in the gospels, as St. Paul explains in the quotes you pasted; but the necessity of works of charity is, nevertheless, in the gospels, particularly in the passages that I outlined in #20. These are the parts Luther did not retain from all his reading and you cannot explain.


50 posted on 12/12/2005 3:23:21 PM PST by annalex
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