Need help defending the Bible as a source of moral code. Any ideas?

Snopes.com ^ | 2004 | unknown

[GOP_Party_Animal]

Some of the following points (see comment below) are just a sarcastic reference to old religious practices. However, it is difficult for me to square the Bible's tolerance for slavery and violence with what it is supposed to be: a foundation for Judaism and Christianity (true religions of peace).

Why does the Bible simply regulate slavery instead of coming out against this clear evil? And why does it prescribe such draconian measures (like stoning) for infractions against the Faith? Almost sounds... Islamic.

You can't claim homosexuality is wrong with Biblical verses then ignore the Bible's tacit endorsement of slavery. How do you argue against all this?

[whispering out loud]

exactly right, example, God never intended for Israel to have a human king. Israel said, in sense "But God we want our own king." So God let them have a king. It wasn't pretty, but he gave them the desires of their heart. Let's get one thing straight, sin is sin always has been, always will be. Slavery was sin, but the laws of the land allowed it. If the law allows someone else to sin against you, it is still not ok to sin even legally to get back at someone, or to get even. Breaking the laws of the land was sin, so to run away, or disrespect your "master" was against the law, so it would be sin. This was the reason these laws were included in the mosaic law. He allowed them the desires of their hearts.

[aimhigh]

Another example in found in Romans 1:26.

"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions."

One form of judgment is to turn man over to his sins.

[Jeff Chandler]

Judaism's Sexual Revolution: Why Judaism (and then Christianity) Rejected Homosexuality

[Jeff Chandler]

Why does the Bible simply regulate slavery instead of coming out against this clear evil?

The Torah helped civilize a cruel and barbaric world. Much misunderstanding of the Bible results from an ignorance of the historical context. For instance, people often cite "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" as proof of the Bible's irrationality. When looked at in light of the fact that at that time it was common for one tribe to completely massacre another over a minor offense, it becomes clear that the rule was intended to bring a proper measure of retraint to justice.

So too with the laws regarding the treatment of slaves, who previously could be killed at the whim of their masters. The rules regarding the treatment of slaves like the "Eye for an eye..." were momentous advancements in civilized behavior. And it was the Judaic-Christian values which eventually caused the abolition of slavery in the West!

And why does it prescribe such draconian measures (like stoning) for infractions against the Faith? Almost sounds... Islamic.

The strict laws found in the Torah were a civilizing force for a barbaric people, and the laws were just that-for a particular people at a particular time. Biblical VALUES, however, are for all mankind. While the Bible never says that slavery is good, it states in the strongest language possible and repeatedly that homosexuality is sinful. The terrible penalties which were required for the people of the time are not necessary in modern society, but the values are the same.

[Mrs. Don-o]

One of the main things to keep in mind is the gradual, insight-by-insight and step-by-step nature of Biblical revelation, based on the extraordinary depth of God's respect for human freedom.

You can see this clearer (I think) if you compare the Bible to the Koran. The differences --- they are fascinating--- point to the uniqueness of the Judeo-Christian interaction between Divine truth and human intellect.

According to Islamic historians, Mohammad repeatedly went into a trance state and started reciting he-knew-not-what. He became a ventriloquist's-dummy, possessed or coercively controlled by a spiritual entity who dictates, dictates, dictates. Each and every separate phrase in it is held to be unalterable, even technically un-translatable (because Allah spoke Arabic!) and true like a snapshot, that is, complete in itself.

The Bible, by contrast, was written by 40+ human authors over a span of 1,000 years, on three continents (Europe, Asia, and Africa) in three languages (Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek), in the words of the authors themselves ("The Word of God in the Words of Man").

This was based not on puppet-like possession and ventriloquism, but on a quirkier, more interactive thing called “inspiration,” employing the human writers' own intelligence, vocabulary, memory, imagination, cultural resources, and individual personalities. It's held to be true, but not in the manner of a series of snapshots-from-heaven, but in the manner of a movie. It tells a story which progresses.

Read the Koran,. You'll find it lacking in thematic or narrative coherence. It has a garbled, fragmentary feel. On the other hand, the books of the Bible --- which you might expect to be a bit choppy, considering their scattered provenance --- paradoxically, start from multifaceted points of view, and develop inexorably toward the same culminating truths.

But note the different deities’ stance on human freedom. One crushes it. The other develops it. One says “Submit.” The other says “Look. Listen. Think.”

Here's an interesting note: the typical Islamic stance toward the Koran is rote memorization. The Typical Jewish stance toward the Torah is commentary ("Talmud.") The word "Muslim" means "one who has submitted." The word "Israel" means, literally, "one who wrestles with God."

How does this apply specifically to moral guidance?

To put it briefly, with the Bible you have to look at the whole of Salvation History --- the whole "movie" --- to grasp its meaning and properly interpret its parts. The old and reliable principle of exegesis is, "Let Scripture interpret Scripture" --- in other words, let the clearer or later parts govern the interpretation of earlier or more obscure parts.

Furthermore, Christians would insist that the New Testament is the interpretive key to the Old Testament. And the Church (which Christ said would be guided by the Holy Spirit) is the key to the New Testament.

As a 2005 A.D. Christian, I rely on two millennia's worth of wrestling and commentary since the beginning of the Church. A lot of things have become clear because of this tremendous and brilliant resource of thinking-with-the-Church. Much of which is now summarized and searchable.

See, for instance, http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Just as an exercise, type in keyword "slavery."

This makes sense to me.

[GOP_Party_Animal]

Fantastic post, Mrs. Don-o. Thanks for the education!

[Mrs. Don-o]

I'm pinging you to my response above, #25, because I thought you might be interested.

Merry Christmas!

[Fenris6]

"Don't ask me to explain why it's yucky."

I'll do it for you - inserting your reproductive organs up someone's waste tract is "yucky". I think the ancients referred to it as "abomination" which is kinda the same thing as "yucky". ;)

[Fenris6]

Nicely done. Thanks. I would email your rebuttal to Sorkin and the rest of the West Wing writers, but I have a sense they are already know they are shills.

[Last Dakotan]

...start from multifaceted points of view, and develop inexorably toward the same culminating truths.

I've noticed that about the gospels of the New Testament, they don't contradict each other, but rather enrich the others.

[don-o]

Also, recall that most of the authors had direct experiences on what the Orthodox Christians call the "energies" of God. ("Mo man can see My Face and live.")

Moses, Daniel, the Apostles were not literary men, but a renegade prince, a government bureaucrat, fishermen, doctor, tax collector, layer of waste to early Christians. Truly a motley crew they were.

[scory]

Good post. Good points made.

[aimhigh]

nature of Biblical revelation, based on the extraordinary depth of God's respect for human freedom.

Without freedom, true love can't develop or even exist.

[Eastbound]

Thanks for the ping and the link!

[Eastbound]

And a very Merry Christmas to you too!

May the Birth of Christ find a manger in the hearts of all.

Wise men still seek Him.

Best -- Dave

[Mrs. Don-o]

It's worth noting, too, that slavery has been almost universal in human societies, from the very primitive (aboriginal tribal American, African, Viking) to the highly civilized (Aztec, Athenian, Roman.) It has never been rooted out of a whole nation where it was established, EXCEPT in Christian countries and in countries which were forced to abolish slavery because of Christian influence --- for instance, English and French colonies.

For some fascinating reading on this subject from historian/sociologist Rodney Stark (an agnostic who gives credit where credit is due):

For the Glory of God:
How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery
by Rodney Stark

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0691114366/002-5423294-3388818?v=glance&n=283155

The Truth About the Catholic Church and Slavery
The problem wasn't that the leadership was silent.
It was that almost nobody listened.
By Rodney Stark

www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/128/53.0.html

And, just for fun: How Christianity (and Capitalism) led to Science

http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=tqm4xd5mqkk5px43d968m19qmf4w3g5y

Enjoy! MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[don-o]

Let me hot link a couple of those.

For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery by Rodney Stark .

And, just for fun: How Christianity (and Capitalism) led to Science .

[Jeff Chandler]

Thank you for that post.

[onedoug]

One of the main things to keep in mind is the gradual, insight-by-insight and step-by-step nature of Biblical revelation, based on the extraordinary depth of God's respect for human freedom.

Makes me proud as a Jew.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Happy Chanukah, and God's blessings on you and all your loved ones.