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More Than Our Father [The Creed]
CatholicExchange.com ^ | 01-04-06 | Mark Shea

Posted on 01/04/2006 12:56:05 PM PST by Salvation

Mark Shea by Mark Shea Sr. Content Editor

Other Articles by Mark Shea
More Than Our Father
1/4/2006


The Creed balances many difficult ideas and paradoxes (as that God is one and three; that the immortal Son became mortal man; that life issues from death; and a thousand other mysteries).

In This Article...
The Titles of the Father
"Almighty"
"Creator"

The Titles of the Father

But the very first bit of balancing the Creed does is to propose three different titles by which we must think of the first Person of the Trinity. The first title is the most familiar, since Jesus Himself explicitly commands us to use it: God is "Father." And we do well, of course, to obey Jesus in addressing God as our Father.

But we do well also not to lose balance and forget the other two titles used by the Creed. For besides calling Him "Father," the Church also calls Him "Almighty" and "Creator." If we allow our concentration on God as "Father" to eclipse our faith in Him as "Almighty" and "Creator," we do ourselves a disservice and God a dishonor. For it is these titles which make Jesus's command to call Him "Father" all the more breathtaking and beautiful.

"Almighty"

"Almighty" means "able to do whatever He wills." God's "might" includes not only omnipotence, but omniscience. God alone knows everything that can be known and can do whatever He wants. By His almighty power, "the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them" (Gn 2:1). This is a dizzying prospect which, curiously, tends to evoke either awe or ridicule among us humans. It evokes awe in the childlike heart, especially when that heart beholds the work of God in creation and says, "O Lord, how manifold are Thy works. In wisdom Thou hast made them all" (Ps 104:24). It evokes ridicule when the unbelieving heart sees the enormous amount of evil afoot in the world and says, "So if God is all-powerful, why didn't He prevent this?"

This is the central difficulty with our understanding of "Almighty": we think in terms of sheer force (as did the psalmists who repeatedly end hymns of praise with puzzled questions asking why God doesn't just destroy the wicked). God, however, thinks in terms of love. God does whatever He wills, it is true. But what He wills is our freedom and the dignity of the human person. As such, He commits Himself to the metaphysically head-spinning project of making a world where a large number of things happen according to unfree causes (like ice freezing at a given temperature) while others depend on our choices (like whether to pilot the Titanic through an ice field at top speed in the dead of night). God the Almighty does not force our choices, not because He is weak, but precisely because His power is the only thing that makes our choices possible.

But even more than the paradox of God's might being the source of our freedom, the Church sees God's might manifested in the mystery of the Cross. God's strange way of establishing His power "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but in that which is to come" (Eph 1:21) is not by the expedient of refusing to allow bad guys to be born or by sending thunderbolts to fry the wicked. It is, rather, by allowing evil to do its very worst — and then bringing life even out of that. This is why Paul can say that "all things" — even the murder of God incarnate by His own creatures — work together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purposes (Rom 8:28). For His purposes, even toward His most murderous creatures, remain good.

"Creator"

This means that God's omnipotence also is bound up intimately with His Providence. And His Providence is, in turn, inextricably linked to Him as Creator. When we say that God is "Creator," we are accustomed to thinking of long ago. We imagine a big black field of nothing, then a huge flash of light and wham! — there it all was and that was Creation. Since that primeval event (we imagine) God has basically been moving the pieces around and, every once in a while, doing a miracle of creation (like with the loaves and fishes) just to show He hasn't lost His touch.

In reality, however, the Church believes that God wasn't just Creator then. He is Creator now. That is, nothing that exists could remain in existence for one nanosecond if God did not continuously hold it in existence. God creates ex nihilo (out of nothing). He is not like a human artisan, using pre-existing stuff like wood or clay. He causes not only the form but the matter of all that is, both visible and invisible. And having caused it, He goes on causing it, holding it in being even when (in the case of rational creatures like us or Satan), His creature rejects Him.

Once we realize this, we begin to realize the staggering nature of God's self-sacrificial love for us. As St. Thomas Aquinas says, if God wanted to destroy the universe, He wouldn't have to do anything; He would have to stop doing something. You and I exist because God wills us to exist now, not just in a blueprint drawn up a long time ago. And He wills us to exist even when we loudly gripe about wanting nothing to do with Him.

That means that all things, right now — even the bad stuff — are providentially coordinated by God for your good and mine — if we love God and respond to the "call according to His purposes." And that call is nothing less than the call through Christ Jesus to become "participants in the divine nature" as 2 Peter 1:4 tells us. The significance of that cannot even begin to be grasped by our human minds. We specks of protoplasm on an ordinary bit of sand orbiting an average star two-thirds of the way out on the spiral arm of a completely run-of-the-mill galaxy among billions of other galaxies — we have been called by name and God has become one of us in order to make us, not servants, but sons and daughters.

Not Our Uncle

This is not Touched by an Angel stuff. This is shocking. That the cloudy divinity of Touched by an Angel should smile down from some gauzy TV heaven and like us is a truism. The appropriate response to such a god is "How nice." But when God the Almighty Creator kindles the unimaginable fires of creation for us, and oversees the rising and falling nations for us, and becomes man in order to be crucified for us who nail Him to the Cross, the only conceivable response is "O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is Thy name in all the earth! What is man that Thou art mindful of him, the son of man that Thou dost care for him?" (Ps 8:1; 4). That is why it is so necessary to know Who we call Father, lest in becoming too comfy, we come to really mean something more like "God our Uncle." As Rabbi Abraham Heschel says, "God is not an uncle. God is an earthquake."

An earthquake Who loves us.


Mark Shea is Senior Content Editor for Catholic Exchange. You may visit his website at
www.mark-shea.com check out his blog, Catholic and Enjoying It!, or purchase his books and tapes here.



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KEYWORDS: apostles; catholiclist; creed; nicene
For your reading pleasure and discussion.
1 posted on 01/04/2006 12:56:07 PM PST by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; sandyeggo; Siobhan; Lady In Blue; NYer; american colleen; Pyro7480; livius; ...
In reality, however, the Church believes that God wasn't just Creator then. He is Creator now. That is, nothing that exists could remain in existence for one nanosecond if God did not continuously hold it in existence. God creates ex nihilo (out of nothing).

Catholic Discussion Ping!

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2 posted on 01/04/2006 12:57:38 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
For it is these titles [Almighty and Creator] which make Jesus's command to call Him "Father" all the more breathtaking and beautiful.

This is one of those ideas that makes a lightbulb go "on" in my head. Thanks for posting the article.

3 posted on 01/04/2006 1:13:29 PM PST by syriacus (Murtha wants our troops redeployed. I wonder how he'd feel about "redeploying" them to Iran.)
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To: Salvation
That is, nothing that exists could remain in existence for one nanosecond if God did not continuously hold it in existence.

Including the nanosecond. Time is a part of Creation continuously held in existence by God - the Almighty Creator and Father.

4 posted on 01/04/2006 1:32:44 PM PST by TotusTuus
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To: TotusTuus
That is, nothing that exists could remain in existence for one nanosecond if God did not continuously hold it in existence.

Including the nanosecond. Time is a part of Creation continuously held in existence by God - the Almighty Creator and Father.

Which brings to mind two quotations (reconstructed imperfectly from my memory: Dame Julian of Norwich had a vision in which she saw God holding a single hickory nut. When she asked what that represented God said "this is all that I have made." Second quote, Karl Barth: "Time matters only to those who are going to die."

5 posted on 01/04/2006 1:39:24 PM PST by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be exorcised.)
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To: Salvation

So many times my non-Catholic friends will ask me what we Catholics believe.

I've found that simply giving them a copy of the Nicene Creed gives a stellar overview of our Faith.


6 posted on 01/04/2006 2:13:15 PM PST by AlaninSA (It's one nation under God -- brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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bttt


7 posted on 01/04/2006 2:26:46 PM PST by Coleus (IMHO, The IVF procedure is immoral & kills many embryos/children and should be outlawed)
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To: Salvation
The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered died and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen.
8 posted on 01/04/2006 3:54:02 PM PST by joseph20
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To: joseph20
I'm not in the SSPX, but the Latin version sounds pretty beautiful too:

CREDO IN unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem coeli et terrae, visibilium omnium, et invisibilium.

Et in unum Dominum Jesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum. Et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, lumen de lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero. Genitum, non factum, consubstantialem Patri: per quem omnia facta sunt.

Qui propter nos homines, et propter nostram salutem descendit de coelis. Et incarnatus est de spiritu sancto ex Maria Virgine: et homo factus est. Crucifixus etiam pro nobis, sub Pontio Pilato passus, et sepultus est.

Et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas. Et ascendit in coelum: sedet ad dexteram Patris. Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, judicare vivos et mortuos: cujus regni non erit finis.

Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem: qui ex Patre Filioque procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas.

Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam.

Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum.

Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum. + Et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen.

9 posted on 01/04/2006 7:17:16 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Cronos; joseph20
I like the old English version. It seems to translate the Latin a little bit better:

I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only-begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures,
and ascendeth into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, in glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son;
who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped
and glorified; who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
10 posted on 01/04/2006 8:35:17 PM PST by nanetteclaret (Our Lady's Hat Society)
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To: Salvation
In reality, however, the Church believes that God wasn't just Creator then. He is Creator now. That is, nothing that exists could remain in existence for one nanosecond if God did not continuously hold it in existence. God creates ex nihilo (out of nothing).... As St. Thomas Aquinas says, if God wanted to destroy the universe, He wouldn't have to do anything; He would have to stop doing something.

Aquinas also explains that the lover gives what he has to the beloved. The essence of God is Existence. God wills existence to each of us and to everything moment by moment because He loves us all intensely and unconditionally. Even Satan -- despite all his rebellion, God continues to gift him with existence, when He could cease willing him to be. As John says, God is Love.

11 posted on 01/04/2006 8:48:39 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: TotusTuus

**Time is a part of Creation continuously held in existence by God - the Almighty Creator and Father**

Absolutely!

Day and night, day and night, etc. etc. etc.


12 posted on 01/04/2006 11:11:19 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: AlaninSA

Agree!


13 posted on 01/04/2006 11:11:50 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: joseph20

Thanks, I was going to do that this morning, but ran out of time!


14 posted on 01/04/2006 11:12:20 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: AlaninSA
So many times my non-Catholic friends will ask me what we Catholics believe.

I've found that simply giving them a copy of the Nicene Creed gives a stellar overview of our Faith.

Actually nearly all traditional Protestants (& Eastern Orthodox too) believe the same creed(s). The Nicene and Apostles Creeds (with some minor differences in interpretation) are followed by all Christians.

15 posted on 01/05/2006 8:40:05 AM PST by AnalogReigns
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To: AlaninSA

Protestants tend to favor the older (and simpler) Apostles Creed (also known as the "Old Roman Creed"), but, we also say (on occasion) the same Nicene Creed repeated in Catholic churches weekly.

The Apostles Creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead and buried.

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and siteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

*by which is understood to be the church universal, not just that led by the pontif in Rome.


16 posted on 01/05/2006 8:55:02 AM PST by AnalogReigns
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To: AnalogReigns

There are differences between the two Creeds -- and they're important ones.

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty
Maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
And his kingdom will have no end
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life,
Who proceeds from the Father (and the Son)
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.


17 posted on 01/05/2006 2:09:58 PM PST by AlaninSA (It's one nation under God -- brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: Cronos
Your post silently affirms the utter collapse of Western Catholicism by the fraudulent defilers of Sacred Dogma within Western ( Roman Rite ) Catholicism over the last forty plus years.

You were, sadly, compelled to notice to one and to all your disassociation from those holy priests within the Society of Saint Pius X -- less your love of Latin might cast you as supporting their holy calling.

Your caveat, "I'm not in the SSPX....", shamefully exposes the stains of sin heaped upon His Church by those least fit to shepherd the faithful.

Contrarily, they would share the Chair of Peter with Lucifer's evil in Vietnam and China, than pray with men devoted to uplifting and teaching the faithful of writings penned by Peter's successors -- minus the heresy proclaimed of the unholy four.

May Almighty God forgive our trespasses against His Will.

18 posted on 01/06/2006 12:03:37 PM PST by Robert Drobot (Da mihi virtutem contra hostes tuos.)
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To: Cronos
My Post #18 is a classic example of my attempting to engage in communication, while on pneumonia medication. My sincere apologies.

Correction of Post #18:

Your post silently affirms the utter collapse of Western Catholicism by the fraudulent defilers of Sacred Dogma over the last forty plus years.

You were, sadly, compelled to notice to one and to all your disassociation from those holy priests within the Society of Saint Pius X -- less your interest in Latin infer your support of their holy calling.

Your caveat, "I'm not in the SSPX....", shamefully exposes the stains of sin heaped upon His Church by those least fit to shepherd the faithful. Contrarily, they would share the Chair of Peter with Lucifer's evil in Vietnam and China, than pray with men devoted to uplifting and teaching the faithful of writings penned by Peter's successors -- but for the heresy of the unholy four.

May Almighty God forgive our trespasses against His Will.

19 posted on 01/06/2006 12:15:32 PM PST by Robert Drobot (Da mihi virtutem contra hostes tuos.)
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To: AlaninSA

Of course there are important differences, mainly in that the Nicene Creed is longer and more detailed...as it dealt with different heresies at a different time the "Hippoclytus Old Roman Creed" (the Apostles Creed).

My point is that ALL orthodox Christians, Catholic and Protestant affirm both these creeds. (Eastern Orthodox affirm them both too, with the exception of the 'filioque', "proceeds from the Father (and the Son)" clause, where they omit "the Son" part.

Some Protestants don't say them, or even acknowlege them, never-the-less, standard theology...of Baptists, Bible, (most) Pentacostals, Mennonites, besides Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodists and Lutherans etc. ALL affirm both the Apostles and the Nicene creeds.

I would go so far to say that any that do NOT have theology in accord with those creeds can rightly be catagorized as sub-Christian cults.


20 posted on 01/07/2006 8:25:32 PM PST by AnalogReigns
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To: joseph20

Now, just as soon as you take out "Filioque" you will have the REAL creed!


21 posted on 01/07/2006 8:31:48 PM PST by TexConfederate1861
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To: Cronos

Sounds really pretty, EXCEPT for "qui ex Patre Filioque procedit" That part split the Church in two.

Once the RC's drop it, things will be headed in the right direction.


22 posted on 01/07/2006 8:36:29 PM PST by TexConfederate1861
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To: AnalogReigns

Agreed...amazing...agreement on FR!


23 posted on 01/07/2006 8:44:36 PM PST by AlaninSA (It's one nation under God -- brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: TexConfederate1861
Why would the Holy Spirit proceed only from the Father?
24 posted on 01/07/2006 10:03:20 PM PST by joseph20
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To: joseph20

Because it does. And because 3 Ecumenical Councils said it does, Read the Gospel of John.


25 posted on 01/08/2006 5:51:59 AM PST by TexConfederate1861
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To: TexConfederate1861
...because 3 Ecumenical Councils said it does, Read the Gospel of John.

Would you (or anyone else) mind providing a reference to these councils? Also, which passage from the Gospel of John is pertinent to your position? Thanks.
26 posted on 01/08/2006 5:57:15 AM PST by joseph20
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To: joseph20

Here are more concrete answers: The Holy Scriptures state that the Spirit
proceeds from the Father. Our Lord Jesus Christ, on the night before
He suffered, said to His apostles (John 15:26 RSV):

+ But when the Counsellor comes,
+ whom I shall send to you from the Father,
+ even the Spirit of truth,
+ who proceeds from the Father,
+ he will bear witness to me.

The Filioque undermines the very foundations of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity,
in that it denies the nature of the Father, Whose nature it is to be the sole source from which all else is derived. Although all Three
Persons of the Trinity are co-eternal and co-equal, nevertheless the
Son is derived of the Father, and not the Father of the Son. When we
call the First Person of the Trinity the Father, we are affirming
that He imparts life and existence to others, for this is what it
means to be a father. It is NOT what it means to be a Son, and
therefore it is wrong to suppose that the being of the Spirit is
derived from the Son as well as from the Father.


27 posted on 01/08/2006 5:58:20 AM PST by TexConfederate1861
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To: TexConfederate1861
John 15:26:
But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me."


John 16:7:
Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.


John 20:22:
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."


John 16:15:
All things whatsoever the Father hath are mine. Therefore I said that he shall receive of me and show it to you.

28 posted on 01/08/2006 6:56:29 AM PST by joseph20
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To: joseph20

You should read the scripture: "whom I shall send to you FROM THE FATHER, even the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds FROM THE FATHER, he shall bear witness to me"

And then there is that other small matter of the anethemas placed on anyone who adds or takes away from the Creed, placed by the Ecumenical Councils.......Even a joint Orthodox-Catholic Committee has ruled that the filioque should not be in the creed. When the Ecumenical Patriarch & Pope John Paul II celebrated Mass, the Filioque was not used. Read the Creed on the doors of St. Peter's Basilica, NO filioque there either.


29 posted on 01/08/2006 12:19:38 PM PST by TexConfederate1861
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To: TexConfederate1861

I think its fair to say the filoque was used as an excuse for the Great Schism of 1054, while the underlying causes were political and professional rivalries. True there is a difference but the Trinity of God remains with either understanding.


30 posted on 01/08/2006 6:16:30 PM PST by AnalogReigns
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To: TexConfederate1861
Sounds really pretty, EXCEPT for "qui ex Patre Filioque procedit" That part split the Church in two. Once the RC's drop it, things will be headed in the right direction.

Tex, I'm guessing you're a recent EO convert as you've marked the part wrongly. The only issue is with the word Filioque. The other part is acceptable to the EO and translates as "who proceeds from the Father (and the Son)". You DO believe that the Spiritu Sanctum proceeds from the Father, correct?

Furthermore, do read up a bit more on the Filioque controversy. It's a question of language. Both Latins and Greeks believed that the Father is the originator of the Holy Spirit AND that the Son, along with the Spirit are of one substance with the Father. Leaving out Filioque to the Latins seemed (and to some extent) seems Arian, but that is NOT how the Orthodox see it. The Orthodox belief about the procession of the FAther, Son and Holy Spirit is of the same essence as the Latin belief, the words divide us.
31 posted on 01/09/2006 2:28:02 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: TexConfederate1861

Furthermore to that, do note that the Filioque is not used in the Eastern Catholic Churchs (like the Syro-Malabarese, the Maronite etc.) or, strangely enough, in the Vatican itself. Could that mean that it is for a clearer understanding of the Church meaning to a Frankish mind? Perhaps. The Greek nuances don't translate exactly into Latin (and vice-versa).


32 posted on 01/09/2006 2:30:06 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: TexConfederate1861
Furthermore to that, do note that the Filioque is not used in the Eastern Catholic Churchs (like the Syro-Malabarese, the Maronite etc.) or, strangely enough, in the Vatican itself. Could that mean that it is for a clearer understanding of the Church meaning to a Frankish mind? Perhaps. The Greek nuances don't translate exactly into Latin (and vice-versa).

How do you think we had the Coptic and Chaldean Churchs leave the Catholic-Orthodox Church when they thought we were Nestorians?
33 posted on 01/09/2006 2:35:50 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: AnalogReigns; TexConfederate1861
I think its fair to say the filoque was used as an excuse for the Great Schism of 1054, while the underlying causes were political and professional rivalries. True there is a difference but the Trinity of God remains with either understanding.

Quite correct. I don't see the point of raising it as a bashing point to separate the Orthodox and Catholics. If you want me to remove the Filioque, fine, as Analog says, the understanding of the TRinitarian nature of God remains the same.

CREDO IN unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem coeli et terrae, visibilium omnium, et invisibilium.

Et in unum Dominum Jesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum. Et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, lumen de lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero. Genitum, non factum, consubstantialem Patri: per quem omnia facta sunt.

Qui propter nos homines, et propter nostram salutem descendit de coelis. Et incarnatus est de spiritu sancto ex Maria Virgine: et homo factus est. Crucifixus etiam pro nobis, sub Pontio Pilato passus, et sepultus est.

Et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas. Et ascendit in coelum: sedet ad dexteram Patris. Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, judicare vivos et mortuos: cujus regni non erit finis.

Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem: qui ex Patre procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas.

Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam.

Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum.

Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum. + Et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen.
34 posted on 01/09/2006 2:39:00 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Robert Drobot

okie -- I didn't understand either of your posts!!!


35 posted on 01/09/2006 2:40:41 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Cronos

NO...born Orthodox


36 posted on 01/09/2006 4:50:39 AM PST by TexConfederate1861
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To: Cronos

I do understand TODAY, at the theologian level Roman Catholics have that understanding about the procession of the Holy Spirit. The lower clergy and laity still stubbornly cling to the delusion that the Frankish version of the Creed is correct. The bigger issue of the Creed to me, and to many Orthodox is the idea that the filioque is a
symbol of the issue of Papal Authority vs. Ecumenical Council. The Council pronounced anethema on anyone or anybody that changed the Creed. The Popes ignored this.


37 posted on 01/09/2006 4:57:29 AM PST by TexConfederate1861
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To: TexConfederate1861
You should read the scripture: "whom I shall send to you FROM THE FATHER, even the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds FROM THE FATHER, he shall bear witness to me"

How should this mean only "from the Father", when the preceding clause makes the statement that Jesus shall send the Holy Spirit?

Read the "WHOM I SHALL SEND TO YOU" clause. How can your position be upheld, when this line clearly states that the Holy Spirit is being sent by Jesus (as well as from the Father obviously)?

On another point, why did focus only on John 15:26? Did you ignore the other scripture readings (John 16:7, John 20:22, and John 16:15) that support the position that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son?
38 posted on 01/10/2006 12:52:30 AM PST by joseph20
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To: TexConfederate1861
And then there is that other small matter of the anethemas (sic) placed on anyone who adds or takes away from the Creed, placed by the Ecumenical Councils

The Council of Ephesus (held in 431) was held for the reason of dealing with Nestorius--the heretic Bishop of Constantinople (and his followers).

The sixth session of the Council (in which the anathema decision was made) dealt only with the matter of two Nestorianizing priests. This anathema ruling is contained in a letter from Cyril to Nestorius and therefore must be interpreted in the context of dealing with Nestorius and his followers.

Your position on this matter improperly interprets this decree as meant to be taken far too literally. For if you take it in absolute literal form, then any deviation from the original Greek version of the Creed (approved at Ephesus and including the anathema) would be cause for excommunication:

Πιστεύομεν εις ένα Θεόν, Πατέρα, Παντοκράτορα, ποιητήν ουρανού και γης, ορατόν τε πάντων και αοράτων. Και εις ένα Κύριον Ιησούν Χριστόν, τον Υιόν του Θεου τον μονογενή, τον εκ του Πατρός γεννηθέντα προ πάντων τον αιώνων· φως εκ φωτός, Θεόν αληθινόν εκ Θεου αληθινού, γεννηθέντα οι ποιηθέντα, ομοούσιον το Πατρί, δι' ου το πάντα εγένετο. Τὸν δι' ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν καὶ σαρκωθέντα ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς Παρθένου καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα. Σταυρωθέντα τε ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου, καὶ παθόντα καὶ ταφέντα. Καὶ ἀναστάντα τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρα κατὰ τὰς Γραφάς. Καὶ ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανοὺς καὶ καθεζόμενον ἐκ δεξιῶν τοῦ Πατρός. Καὶ πάλιν ἐρχόμενον μετὰ δόξης κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς, οὗ τῆς βασιλείας οὐκ ἔσται τέλος. Καὶ εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, τὸ κύριον, τὸ ζωοποιόν, τὸ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορευόμενον, τὸ σὺν Πατρὶ καὶ Υἱῷ συμπροσκυνούμενον καὶ συνδοξαζόμενον, τὸ λαλῆσαν διὰ τῶν προφητῶν. Εἰς μίαν, Ἁγίαν, Καθολικὴν καὶ Ἀποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν. Ὁμολογῶ ἓν βάπτισμα εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν. Προσδοκῶ ἀνάστασιν νεκρῶν. Καὶ ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος. Ἀμήν. Τοὺς δὲ λέγοντας, ὅτι ἦν ποτε ὅτε οὐκ ἦν, καὶ πρὶν γεννηθῆναι οὐκ ἦν, καὶ ὅτι ἐξ οὐκ ὄντων ἐγένετο, ἢ ἐξ ἑτέρας ὑποστάσεως ἢ οὐσίας φάσκοντας εἶναι. ἢ κτιστόν, τρεπτὸν ἢ ἀλλοιωτὸν τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ θεοῦ, τούτους ἀναθεματίζει ἡ καθολικὴ καὶ ἀποστολικὴ ἐκκλησία.


Do you recite your creed in Greek? Or, if you dare to translate it into your native language (I presume English), do you recite the anathema that comes at the end of the Creed? See below for the anathema:
But those that say, There was a time when he was not, and, before he was begotten he was not, and that he was made of that which previously was not, or that he was of some other substance or essence; and that the Son of God was capable of change or alteration; those the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes.


If your argument is followed out, then every Roman Catholic priest should be excommunicated and every Roman Catholic layman should be anathemized. Such a position is entirely untenable.
39 posted on 01/10/2006 2:36:24 AM PST by joseph20
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To: joseph20

I tire of this debate. Read The Creed on the doors of St.Peter's Basilica. YOUR OWN POPE, Gregory the Great supported the argument AGAINST the filioque. Your OWN theologians have already said that it should be removed. Why do you defend an erroneous practice which is not even supported by your own church?


40 posted on 01/10/2006 4:05:28 AM PST by TexConfederate1861
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To: joseph20

There were anethemas at the end of Nicea as well, not just Ephesus.


41 posted on 01/10/2006 4:38:59 AM PST by TexConfederate1861
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