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Is Faith Necessary for Salvation? (Part 2)
Zenit News Agency ^ | January 16, 2006 | Ilaria Morali

Posted on 01/16/2006 11:59:31 PM PST by NYer

ROME, JAN. 16, 2006 (Zenit.org).- Is faith necessary for salvation?

Ilaria Morali, a professor of theology at the Gregorian University, and a specialist in the subject of grace, responds to this question in Part 2 of this interview with ZENIT.

The interview took place with an eye toward understanding better Benedict XVI's address at the general audience of Nov. 30, during which he spoke about the possibility of salvation for non-Christians.

Part 1 of this interview appeared Sunday.

Q: Since the Second Vatican Council, what has been the Catholic view of nonbelievers?

Morali: The question offers me the occasion to touch upon one of the aspects the Pope has commented upon regarding the "spark" harbored by those who do not have biblical faith.

Vatican II places among the latter both people belonging to other religions as well as people who are specifically nonbelievers. They are two profoundly different groups, but united by the fact that they do not have the faith of Christ. The former cultivate some form of religious belief; the latter affirm that they do not have faith.

In No. 16 of the dogmatic constitution "Lumen Gentium," the Council, recalling the principle of the universal saving will of God, affirmed that those who seek God with sincerity, and make an effort under the influence of grace to do his will with works, known by the dictate of conscience, may obtain eternal salvation.

This affirmation reflects indirectly the teaching of Pius IX, but it emphasizes an aspect not considered until now: that of grace. The search for the good, the determination and the will to carry it out are effects of the action of grace.

Moreover, the Council added, almost to stress this principle, "Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life."

According to the Council, no effort can take place "without grace." That means that God is also close to those who do not know him. This same teaching is found in the pastoral constitution "Gaudium et Spes," where in No. 22 the Council acknowledges that grace works in the hearts of all men of good will.

The people to whom the Holy Father refers are, in a certain sense, the same as those of whom the Council spoke. However, some one might object that the Council, in No. 7 of the decree "Ad Gentes" on missionary activity, underlines the principle of the necessity of faith for salvation, in addition to the need of baptism and of the Church.

It might also be underlined that in this number Vatican II affirms that "those cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it."

According to Catholic doctrine, faith of course, is necessary for salvation. This principle, sanctioned in the Letter to the Hebrews 11:6 has been accepted by the Christian tradition since its beginning. And here, in this context, it is proposed again in a clear way.

Q: And who does not have a complete faith?

Morali: Christian tradition itself acknowledges that not all have received the gift of the fullness of faith and that there can also be very imperfect forms of faith.

In the chapter on faith, the Roman Catechism, which was composed after the Council of Trent, acknowledges that there are different degrees of faith: There are those who have a great faith and others who have a fragile faith.

It takes this teaching from the Gospel, in reference to the many words that Jesus Christ pronounced on the faith of his disciples, of the people with whom he met.

However, we cannot pause on this first part of the Council's reflection proposed in No. 7 of the decree "Ad Gentes" on the necessity of faith, but we must also read what follows: "Though God in ways known to himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please him, yet a necessity lies upon the Church, and at the same time a sacred duty, to preach the Gospel."

This means that God has his ways to lead men to faith and we certainly cannot penetrate in the inscrutable divine action in the hearts of men. In its complexity, the teaching of "Ad Gentes" helps us to understand two principles.

First, that it is not possible to be saved without faith. As history teaches us, men have certainly existed and will exist who consciously deny God, staining themselves with atrocious faults. They will have to answer before God for having exiled and excluded him from their lives, converting that of others into a hell. It is an inescapable fact that there is no salvation for these.

Second, there are many more people who, even stating that they are not believers, will obtain eternal salvation. These are people who give Christians an extraordinary example of generosity and rectitude. If I accept the conciliar teaching, then, for me, who am a believer, the good that they do is already the effect of grace that works in a hidden way in them and I must pray that this grace will one day give them the possibility of being led to an explicit faith.

Moreover, I must admit that in this invisible work of grace, God leads them to faith in an absolutely mysterious way.

Q: Is it necessary to let grace act on its own in those people in whom it acts in a hidden way?

Morali: That does not mean that, as a Christian, I must not do everything possible so that this grace that acts in a hidden way in these people of good will might attain to fullness, though it might not always achieve this. My witness and my prayer are a support to the divine work, but God has his times and his designs.

Speaking again of the "spark" of which the Pope spoke in his address, I would like to recall an affirmation of Tertullian: "alma naturaliter Christiana" [the soul is naturally Christian]. He said this referring to people who lacked education in the faith, but who experienced inklings of faith.

Tertullian's expression has entered the reflection on faith of those who seem not to have faith, as it reflects the longing, in the depth of every man, to know God.

This longing is inscribed in a person's heart and, as Henri de Lubac would say, is the proof that we are created in the image of God and that this image is as an indelible sign. Man longs for Jesus Christ because he bears the image of God in his heart, and the image of God is Jesus Christ.

Tertullian also says that "fiunt no nascuntur christiani," which means: "Christians are not born, but made." It means that this longing needs to be corresponded by knowledge of God and this knowledge only Jesus Christ can give.

The longing of the heart for fullness is not enough; one must come to this fullness in fact. Thus is understood the importance of the evangelizing work of the Church, called to lead men to that fullness that is realized with baptism and perfected throughout a Christian's life.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; History; Ministry/Outreach; Prayer; Theology
KEYWORDS: faith; salvation
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PART 1
1 posted on 01/16/2006 11:59:33 PM PST by NYer
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...


2 posted on 01/17/2006 12:00:17 AM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: NYer
"Second, there are many more people who, even stating that they are not believers, will obtain eternal salvation."

OoooooooooooK.....

It's now confirmed one doesn't have to be a believer to obtained salvation. In fact, people can emphatically state they are NOT believers and still be saved. Incredibly the author quotes all sorts of Catholic papers but never the scripture. Perhaps this is the true error.

3 posted on 01/17/2006 4:32:54 AM PST by HarleyD (Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on)
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To: HarleyD
It's now confirmed one doesn't have to be a believer to obtained salvation. In fact, people can emphatically state they are NOT believers and still be saved. Incredibly the author quotes all sorts of Catholic papers but never the scripture. Perhaps this is the true error.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:14-18 KJV)

4 posted on 01/17/2006 5:58:48 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
There you go, confusing the issue with scripture. You sola scriptura people are all alike. ;O)
5 posted on 01/17/2006 6:21:25 AM PST by HarleyD (Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on)
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To: HarleyD

Quote: "Incredibly the author quotes all sorts of Catholic papers but never the scripture. Perhaps this is the true error."

Roman Catholicism has two sources of authority: Scripture and Tradition. Thus, the lack of Biblical references is no problem for the RC.


6 posted on 01/17/2006 6:26:59 AM PST by Fischer1483
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To: HarleyD

Ishmael was a good Muslim, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. (Apostasy 13:13)


7 posted on 01/17/2006 6:42:54 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: Fischer1483

These days it's more tradition than scripture.


8 posted on 01/17/2006 6:49:37 AM PST by HarleyD (Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on)
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To: P-Marlowe

LOL!!!


9 posted on 01/17/2006 6:50:19 AM PST by HarleyD (Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on)
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To: HarleyD
Another fine demonstration of cherry picking one verse out of context and attempting to bend its meaning from what the author intended.

And all to serve to further the cause of ridicule. Good job. Rest well.

SD

10 posted on 01/17/2006 6:53:05 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave

Your interpretation is welcomed.


11 posted on 01/17/2006 6:59:22 AM PST by HarleyD (Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on)
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To: Fischer1483
Roman Catholicism has two sources of authority: Scripture and Tradition. Thus, the lack of Biblical references is no problem for the RC.

Which source is considered the "higher" authority? It seems in this case that Tradition is contradicted by (but nonetheless trumps?) Scripture. Still, this should be read as a University Professor's attempts to interpret Benedict XVI's Nov 30th address within the context of various earlier doctrinal pronouncements, and not explicitly as the words of BXVI himself.

12 posted on 01/17/2006 7:01:13 AM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: HarleyD
Your interpretation is welcomed.

Well, you could begin with:

First, that it is not possible to be saved without faith.

Unfortunately, this negates the hilarious point you were trying to make, so I don't blame you for pretending not to remember you read it.

I realize it's harder to read for comprehension rather than ammunition, but shouldn't you honestly try to understand, rather than just ridicule?

"Though God in ways known to himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please him, yet a necessity lies upon the Church, and at the same time a sacred duty, to preach the Gospel."

This means that God does what He likes (isn't that a Calvin idea?). And if He is in the process of leading one into faith, but that one has not yet intellectually grasped the Gospel, is he not saved? Would you say God is sovereign in choosing whom to save except He can not save anyone unless they have a certain intellectual understanding and knowledge?

SD

13 posted on 01/17/2006 7:31:59 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Alex Murphy

I rather wish sola scriptural folks would emphatically obey 1 Corinthians 14:34. It'd silence at least half of them.


14 posted on 01/17/2006 7:36:19 AM PST by x5452
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To: x5452
I rather wish sola scriptural folks would emphatically obey 1 Corinthians 14:34. It'd silence at least half of them.

But then their emphatically and equally obedient husbands would make their wives' concerns known to you. You might have to deal with half the number of voices, but you'd be faced with an equal number of concerns.

15 posted on 01/17/2006 7:56:55 AM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: SoothingDave; P-Marlowe; Alex Murphy
There is not much to "try" to understand about this issue. We would agree that you must be saved by faith. The quote I was referring to out of the Vatican and pointed you to interpret is:

All Calvinists, many Protestants, and I thought most Catholics would never make such a statement. If God gives a person His grace to instill faith, then that person will know our Lord Jesus as Savior. I would simply point you to John the Baptist who leaped inside the womb when he was in the presence of Lord Jesus before He was born. He knew the truth.

And if He is in the process of leading one into faith, but that one has not yet intellectually grasped the Gospel, is he not saved?

God is fully capable of leading one into faith AND giving that person the knowledge and understanding. IF a person does not demonstrate both they are not saved.

I have been told many times by my Catholic brethren that faith without works is dead. Now I'm being told that works without faith is life. This is beyond goofiness if you ask me.

16 posted on 01/17/2006 7:58:00 AM PST by HarleyD (Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on)
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To: Alex Murphy

Well firstly a lot of pastors would have to give the pulpit over to their husbands. That aside the lessened number of voices would make things a lot more organized, halving the number of folks talking.


17 posted on 01/17/2006 8:07:46 AM PST by x5452
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To: HarleyD
Matthew 23:13

"But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men, for you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter."

18 posted on 01/17/2006 8:18:09 AM PST by Rutles4Ever
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To: HarleyD
There is not much to "try" to understand about this issue.

Apparently there is, as you continue to ignore the words written and focus narrowly on one sentence out of an entire article. Perhaps the words being used don't mean what you think they do?

"Second, there are many more people who, even stating that they are not believers, will obtain eternal salvation."

Yep, that's the one sentence. What troubles you about this? Do you think intellectual knowedge about the faith is instantaneous and automatic? Or does it requre learning and teaching?

It seems, to me, to be completely within reason that someone who is "saved" could be in the larval stages of their development as a believer. God could be dwelling within and the person could not have come to the realization of this fact.

Perhaps you think that is impossible. But I don't. So someone in the initial stages of being moved by God, toward God may deny intellecutally that they have a "faith." But deep inside, they do because that is what God wants.

If God gives a person His grace to instill faith, then that person will know our Lord Jesus as Savior. I would simply point you to John the Baptist who leaped inside the womb when he was in the presence of Lord Jesus before He was born. He knew the truth.

See this makes me think we aren't using the same words to mean the same thing. If you asked fetal John the Baptist if he was a believer in Christ, what would he have said? If you asked him what the name of the Savior was, what would he have said?

Nothing. Fetuses can't talk. Neither can infants. I agree that he had faith inside him, a gift from God. But I deny that he would claim he was a believer in the substitutional atonement of Jesus because he lacked the capacity and knowledge to say those things.

Get it yet?

Have you ever heard people's conversion stories where they may have spent years avoiding confronting God, pretending that He wasn't calling, denying that they needed Him? Well, was God working in them, leading them to a faith that they had not yet intellectually accepted?

God is fully capable of leading one into faith AND giving that person the knowledge and understanding. IF a person does not demonstrate both they are not saved.

When did you cease being a Calvinist? Aren't those who are saved, saved from the moment of Creation? If someone is going to be saved in the end, they must have been elected before the universe began. There is never a time when they were not saved. Isn't that what you believe?

So, it is entirely possible for God's inner tugging to precede the brain accepting faith.

I think the problem here is that you mean something different by "faith" then we do. And that you are reading looking for faults instead of reading what is being said.

SD

19 posted on 01/17/2006 8:18:51 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: HarleyD
Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."
20 posted on 01/17/2006 8:19:42 AM PST by Rutles4Ever
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To: HarleyD

Matthew 21:31

"Amen I say to you, that the publicans and the harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you."


21 posted on 01/17/2006 8:22:26 AM PST by Rutles4Ever
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To: Rutles4Ever; HarleyD
Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:40 KJV)

22 posted on 01/17/2006 11:44:44 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: Rutles4Ever; HarleyD
Matthew 21:31 "Amen I say to you, that the publicans and the harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you."

For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not; but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. (Matthew 21:32 KJV)

23 posted on 01/17/2006 11:51:37 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:40 KJV)

Define "believth on him." Is it primarily the intellectual assent given to a set of propositions, or is it something else?

SD

24 posted on 01/17/2006 11:54:46 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: P-Marlowe
tsk tsk - do you consider the entirety of the verse, or only what you decide to underline?

And this is the will of him that sent me that every one which seeth the Son

and believeth on Him...

It seems the qualification is that God's will in this case refers to those who "seeth" the Son (as well as believing in Him), should have eternal life. This verse says nothing about ONLY those who see and believe in Him having eternal life, but that all who DO see and DO BELIEVE may have eternal life. The verse does not GUARANTEE eternal life even to those who see and believe. God wills that every soul may have eternal life. If God WILLED for every man, woman, and child to believe in His Son, then every man, woman, and child from the beginning of time would be aware of the Trinity, which is simply not true, UNLESS every man, woman, and child, regardless of origin, upbringing, religion, etc., will receive grace at the moment of death to "see" and "believe" in Jesus Christ. Thus, the harlots and publicans who are entering heaven before you and I are those who, despite knowing not Christ, receive His grace at death. We (you and I) already have that grace. Thus, "to whom much is given, much is expected".

25 posted on 01/17/2006 11:59:30 AM PST by Rutles4Ever
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To: P-Marlowe

Again...

Matthew 23:13
"But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men, for you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter."


26 posted on 01/17/2006 12:01:21 PM PST by Rutles4Ever
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To: P-Marlowe

Additionally, this grace offered to those who know nothing of Christ can be rejected just as you and I can reject His grace at our own last breath.


27 posted on 01/17/2006 12:03:04 PM PST by Rutles4Ever
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To: SoothingDave; P-Marlowe; Rutles4Ever
Define "believth on him."

I would say P-M should define "believeth on Him" just as soon as you define "cooperate". You and Rutles4Ever would reject the basic belief that God gives grace and man does something.

Under your scenario God gives grace but man doesn't have to do anything. He doesn't even have to believe in Christ. YIKES!!! What a doctrine.

28 posted on 01/17/2006 12:18:58 PM PST by HarleyD (Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on)
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To: Rutles4Ever
just as you and I can reject His grace at our own last breath.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29 KJV)

29 posted on 01/17/2006 12:40:03 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: HarleyD
I would say P-M should define "believeth on Him" just as soon as you define "cooperate".

You have difficulty understanding what "cooperate" means? It means "work with." Further refinements will be offered as you require.

You and Rutles4Ever would reject the basic belief that God gives grace and man does something.

Would we?

Under your scenario God gives grace but man doesn't have to do anything. He doesn't even have to believe in Christ.

I quote the sentence following your favorite sentence:

Second, there are many more people who, even stating that they are not believers, will obtain eternal salvation. These are people who give Christians an extraordinary example of generosity and rectitude.

I don't define "giving Christians an extraordinary example of generosity and rectitude" to mean he "doesn't have to do anything."

Is this really that difficult to understand?

Further:

the good that they do is already the effect of grace that works in a hidden way in them and I must pray that this grace will one day give them the possibility of being led to an explicit faith.

Again, "the good that they do" in being "extraordinary examples" for us is not "doesn't have to do anything."

Perhaps you remain confused on the central isssue needlessly. The idea is not that everyone ignorant of Christ is automatically saved. It is that some of these may be saved through the working of God's grace, though intellectual facts about Jesus may not be known to one's mind.

Can you see the difference? Don't you believe God is sovereign and He can save whom He pleases?

SD

30 posted on 01/17/2006 12:51:41 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: HarleyD
Under your scenario God gives grace but man doesn't have to do anything.

Are you subscribing to the necessity of "works" all of a sudden?

31 posted on 01/17/2006 12:53:58 PM PST by Rutles4Ever
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To: P-Marlowe

Are you saying that by believing in Christ you no longer have free will? Is Christ saying that He has usurped your ability to reject Him? If this be the case, why did God give man free will at all? We could have avoided the fall of Adam entirely.

Free will isn't free if the possibility doesn't exist to reject Christ up to and including your last dying breath. Conversely, man will have no free will in heaven, since our heavenly existence will be perfectly united to God's will.


32 posted on 01/17/2006 12:57:42 PM PST by Rutles4Ever
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To: Rutles4Ever
Calvinists don't believe in free will. They'll say they do, but they re-define it into meaningless.

It's maddening that they revere God's Sovereignity over all other aspects, but will now deny that He can save people who are ignorant of the facts and name of Jesus though no fault of their own.

SD

33 posted on 01/17/2006 1:08:42 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Rutles4Ever
If this be the case, why did God give man free will at all?

KJV Bible Search
"Free Will"
Find verses containing phrase
Search Range
Entire Bible
0 verses found

34 posted on 01/17/2006 1:13:58 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe

KJV Bible Search
"Trinity"
Find verses containing phrase
Search Range
Entire Bible
0 verses found



35 posted on 01/17/2006 1:17:29 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: P-Marlowe

So you're saying that man has no free will since it's not in the KJV? Unbelievable.


36 posted on 01/17/2006 1:23:31 PM PST by Rutles4Ever
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To: SoothingDave
Calvinists don't believe in free will. They'll say they do, but they re-define it into meaningless. I'm learning this quickly.
37 posted on 01/17/2006 1:24:37 PM PST by Rutles4Ever
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To: SoothingDave

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
(Matthew 28:19 KJV)


38 posted on 01/17/2006 1:24:37 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: SoothingDave
It's maddening that they revere God's Sovereignity over all other aspects, but will now deny that He can save people who are ignorant of the facts and name of Jesus though no fault of their own.

They believe the greater miracle but deny the lesser. What an impotent god they follow.

39 posted on 01/17/2006 1:26:26 PM PST by Rutles4Ever
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To: Rutles4Ever
So you're saying that man has no free will since it's not in the KJV? Unbelievable.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (Romans 9:19 KJV)

40 posted on 01/17/2006 1:29:36 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe

Could you explain how God willed for Adam and Eve to sin, to sully paradise?


41 posted on 01/17/2006 1:39:19 PM PST by Rutles4Ever
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To: Rutles4Ever; HarleyD

For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Romans 5:17-21 KJV)


42 posted on 01/17/2006 1:44:54 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Matthew 28:19 KJV)

Do you believe in three gods or one? Is Jesus human or divine? How many natures does he have? Is the Holy Spirit a person?

The term "Trinity" encompasses a greater set of understanding than just a list of names. Do you affirm what orthodox Christianity has meant by "Trinity" or not?

SD

43 posted on 01/17/2006 1:45:20 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave; Rutles4Ever; HarleyD
Do you believe in three gods or one?

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6 KJV)

Is Jesus human or divine?

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14 KJV)

How many natures does he have?

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;

Is the Holy Spirit a person?

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26 KJV)

44 posted on 01/17/2006 1:53:21 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: NYer; P-Marlowe; Buggman; winstonchurchill; jude24
Is faith necessary for salvation

Yes. The bible says, "Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God."

45 posted on 01/17/2006 1:56:09 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: P-Marlowe
How many natures does he have?

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;

This isn't an answer to the question.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

This contradicts your answer above. If the Lord does not change, how can he be made flesh? Isn't that a change?

See, here is the main problem with this type of questioning. You can't answer it because you apparently believe it to be erroneous or sinful to try to think about what Scripture means in any systematic way. (Which contradicts, of course, the insistence on systematically using predestination to understand everything.) Just posting verses out of context doesn't answer the questions posed.

SD

46 posted on 01/17/2006 2:03:05 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
This isn't an answer to the question.... If the Lord does not change, how can he be made flesh? Isn't that a change?

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever. (Hebrews 13:8 KJV)

47 posted on 01/17/2006 2:12:10 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: SoothingDave; P-Marlowe
You can't answer it because you apparently believe it to be erroneous or sinful to try to think about what Scripture means in any systematic way.

LOL He don't know you vewwwy well, do he?

48 posted on 01/17/2006 2:12:46 PM PST by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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To: P-Marlowe
This isn't an answer to the question.... If the Lord does not change, how can he be made flesh? Isn't that a change?

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever. (Hebrews 13:8 KJV)

Would you like to try for a third time to answer the question? Apparently you have a reputation of being able to answer questions in an intelligble fashion. I'd like to see for myself.

SD

49 posted on 01/17/2006 2:16:43 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
The thread seems to have suddenly taken a different direction. The thread is on whether or not faith is necessary for salvation. You seem to have taken it on a side track into the nature of God and the trinity. So at this point I will inteject an objection that the questions you posed beginning on post 43 are irrelevant.

Can we get back to the topic at hand?

50 posted on 01/17/2006 2:26:36 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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