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Catholic group requests church where all Masses are in Latin
The Buffalo News ^

Posted on 01/18/2006 1:46:32 PM PST by Ercolino

Each Sunday, a small group of Catholics worships at a Tridentine Mass spoken and chanted entirely in Latin - the way of Catholicism for centuries prior to the late 1960s.

The lay group of traditionalists has quietly bounced among various city churches over the past 15 years. Now, group members believe they are large and stable enough to support a church of their own.

They think they can save a city parish destined for closure when the Diocese of Buffalo begins consolidating churches within the next year or two.

The unusual request would allow the diocese to save at least one of its many architecturally significant churches - and stave off criticism from city officials and residents who worry several big empty church buildings will be left behind in a diocesan downsizing.

But the scenario is also fraught with thorny church politics.

Some worry about a "parallel church" developing if a building is set aside for the traditional Latin Mass - a concern voiced by some clergy and liturgists since Pope John Paul II allowed the reintroduction of the Latin Mass in the late 1980s.

Catholicism for decades has weathered heated battles over how its liturgies are conducted.

The current Mass, celebrated in the vernacular language, has been the norm around the world since the church began implementing liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council in the late 1960s.

It has been a long, unhappy norm for those who cherish the Tridentine form - so named because it dates back to the church Council of Trent, or Tridentum in Latin, in the 16th century.

Some privately dismiss the validity of the new liturgy; others have taken their disdain of the current Mass more public, splitting off from Catholicism in favor of a dissident group, the Society of St. Pius X, founded by the excommunicated Archbishop Marcel LeFebvre. The society operates a church in South Buffalo, separate from the diocese.

Many mainstream Catholics view Tridentine Mass proponents as anti-ecumenical obstructionists of an evolving church. And some worry that a nod to the traditionalists could be construed as a subtle brushing off of the controversial Second Vatican Council that ushered in many church changes.

Members of an organization of traditionalists known as Una Voce Buffalo say they don't reject the modern church. Nor do they disobey Buffalo Bishop Edward U. Kmiec or Pope Benedict XVI.

"I think we all believe the same thing. We just express it differently," said Albert Huntz, president of the local chapter of Una Voce, or One Voice. "We can still be part of the diocese and just be a diverse member of it."

Kmiec was unavailable to comment this week. Diocesan spokesman Kevin A. Keenan declined to comment about the possibility of a Tridentine Mass church, saying it is too early to speculate.

"Since decisions regarding the future of parishes are still more than a year off, it would be premature for the diocese to make any commitments regarding individual requests for churches or other parish buildings at this time," Keenan said.

Kmiec met in October with Huntz and other members of Una Voce. The bishop, too, expressed concerns during the meeting about a parallel church that could cause confusion among Catholics, according to Huntz.

Traditional comeback

There are major differences between the Tridentine Mass, used throughout the world prior to 1969, and the new Order of the Mass.

The traditional Mass, celebrated in Latin and marked by long periods of silence and private devotions by the faithful, emphasizes a personal relationship with God.

"It's a whole different approach to the celebration of liturgy," said Monsignor Anthony F. Sherman, associate director of the Secretariat for the Liturgy at the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

The current Mass dispenses with most of the mystical features of the Tridentine form and invites parishioners into a more communal worship.

The traditional Mass began making a comeback in 1988 when Pope John Paul II tried to gather dissidents back into the fold by calling for the "wide and generous" use of the Mass for those who want it, as long as they do not criticize the new liturgical order.

In 1989, U.S. bishops granted "indults," special permission, for 23 parishes to offer weekly Tridentine Masses on Sundays, in addition to their regular Masses. That number has grown to 194 parishes today, including St. Anthony of Padua in Buffalo and Our Lady Help of Christians in Cheektowaga.

But Una Voce Buffalo hopes to occupy a property where the Tridentine Mass is offered exclusively - a much rarer situation in the U.S. Catholic church.

And a murkier one, as well.

A separate congregation presumably would offer baptisms, first Holy Communion and marriage, among other sacraments. But the highest levels of the Vatican bureaucracy have yet to spell out clearly whether sacraments conducted in the old form are valid.

"That's somewhat of a hazy issue right now," said Sherman.

Nonetheless, discussion about the Latin Mass has increased since the election last April of Pope Benedict XVI, who has long been viewed by traditionalists as a steady supporter of the Tridentine form.

The pope met with Society of St. Pius X leader Bishop Bernard Fellay in August, although the group still hasn't reconciled with the Vatican.

Una Voce Buffalo wants to add a priest from outside the diocese, trained in celebrating the traditional Mass, to serve as pastor. Group members say they'll take just about any church the diocese offers, although they would prefer one with Old World architecture.

Group has grown

The Una Voce group at St. Anthony has grown from a handful of people to an estimated 200, including many younger families and middle-aged worshippers.

With a permanent parish, they believe they could attract even more parishioners.

"There are ways to evangelize, and this is just another way. That's all this really comes down to," said David Blackley, an attorney who attends the Tridentine Mass. "We're an option."

Huntz downplayed any potential political significance that might be associated with allowing a different type of liturgy.

"When it comes to worship or prayer, it's really a personal thing. You can go to any parish in the Diocese of Buffalo and notice a difference in the way things are done," he said.

Huntz said many traditional Catholics feel like "orphans" without a parish of their own.

"We are Catholics in good standing. We're part of this diocese. We're not giving [Bishop Kmiec] a hard time. From a pastoral point of view, there should be some sort of accommodation for us," he said.

Proponents of the traditional Mass tend to lean conservative on social issues such as promoting pro-life causes and condemning birth control and same-sex marriage.

For its congregation, the Una Voce group wants to bring in Monsignor Ignacio Barreiro Carambula, a native of Uruguay who serves as director of the Rome office of Human Life International, a worldwide pro-life advocacy organization based in Virginia.

Human Life International was one of the religious groups that took a leading role last year in fighting the removal of a feeding tube for Terri Schiavo.

Barreiro Carambula, who is incardinated in the Diocese of Anapolis, Brazil, confirmed in an e-mail interview with The News that he was interested in being pastor of a Latin Mass community in Buffalo.

"For years, I have done a work that hopefully I cannot be reproached for, but at the same time it has been mostly intellectual and administrative, so as my life enters into its declining years, I would want to offer to the Lord some real priestly work," Barreiro Carambula said in the e-mail.

Others have tried

There is already precedence for a Latin Mass community.

In August, Bishop Robert W. Finn of the Diocese of Kansas City-St. Joseph in Missouri, established a home for the traditional Mass congregation inside an historic Kansas City church, with a full-time priest from an order dedicated to celebrating the Tridentine Latin Rites.

The Diocese of St. Catharines in Ontario has a Traditional Latin Mass Apostolate at its Queen of Angels Oratory. Although not technically a parish, the congregation has two chaplains assigned to it and offers two Tridentine Masses on Sunday.


TOPICS: Catholic; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; latinmass; sspx; tridentinemass
Good old Diocese of Buffalo- I sure hope this works!
1 posted on 01/18/2006 1:46:37 PM PST by Ercolino
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: Ercolino
Many mainstream Catholics view Tridentine Mass proponents as anti-ecumenical obstructionists of an evolving church. And some worry that a nod to the traditionalists could be construed as a subtle brushing off of the controversial Second Vatican Council that ushered in many church changes.

This paragraph perfectly illustrates the utter ignorance most people, "mainstream" Catholic and otherwise have regarding Vatican II and it's teachings on ecumenuism and the mass.

3 posted on 01/18/2006 2:11:03 PM PST by conservonator (Pray for those suffering)
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To: conservonator
Many mainstream Catholics view Tridentine Mass proponents as anti-ecumenical obstructionists of an evolving church.

Traditional Catholics' Motto

We are what you once were.

We believe what you once believed.

We worship as you once worshipped.

If you were right then, we are right now.

If we are wrong now, you were wrong then.

4 posted on 01/18/2006 4:04:43 PM PST by PanzerKardinal
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To: Ercolino

**I sure hope this works!**

I don't think so -- especially if they have to answer to the USCCB.


5 posted on 01/18/2006 4:33:17 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Ercolino
Best of luck on this one, northern New Yorkers!

Una Voce Buffalo wants to add a priest from outside the diocese, trained in celebrating the traditional Mass, to serve as pastor.

I cannot tell you how critical this is. Our one "sanctioned" Latin Mass in San Antonio has a very loyal following. Our priests, however, are a bit challenged to say this traditional Mass.

The older ones who know it are a bit frail...and the young ones don't know it. Either way, you find it tough to hear the priest...who's murmuring the liturgy either due to age-related weakness or age-related fear of messing up something he really doesn't know.

6 posted on 01/18/2006 6:43:15 PM PST by AlaninSA (It's one nation under God -- brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: PanzerKardinal

Ditto that!

How can we (I'm a proponent of tradition) be obstructing an "evolving church?"

The Catholic Church is not evolving...it does not evolve. It stands apart from the ebb and flow of changing societal norms. That's part of what makes it special.


7 posted on 01/18/2006 6:45:24 PM PST by AlaninSA (It's one nation under God -- brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: american colleen; Aquinasfan; B Knotts; BlackElk; Blue Eyes; Campion; Chi-townChief; Cicero; ...
Ring

(If you would like to be on/off my Catholic Ring List, please send a Freepmail.)

8 posted on 01/18/2006 6:47:46 PM PST by Barnacle (The Democrat Party consists of a gaggle of criminal defense attorneys, and their clients.)
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To: Ercolino; GatorGirl; maryz; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; livius; goldenstategirl; ..
"The pope met with Society of St. Pius X leader Bishop Bernard Fellay in August, although the group still hasn't reconciled with the Vatican."
Paris, January 13, 2006 (Apic). The Superior-General of the Fraternity of Saint Pius X has wished to minimise the oppositions between the latter and the Vatican. Bishop Bernard Fellay has expressed the certainty that the conclusion of the conflict begun in 1988 between John Paul II and Archbishop Lefèbvre will be reached under the reign of the new pope.

9 posted on 01/18/2006 6:54:22 PM PST by narses (St Thomas says “lex injusta non obligat”)
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To: Ercolino

A traditional Catholic mass celebrated by priests in schism is one thing. A traditional Catholic mass celebrated by a priest who serves as pastor under a bishop is quite another kettle of fish.

As long as the bishop gives permission and regularizes it, it's a fine idea. The Pope gave permission many years ago for diocesan bishops to authorize Latin masses in their dioceses. The only oxen to be gored would be the progressive liturgists. Frankly, they are not bishops and have no authority to determine what the liturgy should be. If they didn't like it, they could lump it.


10 posted on 01/18/2006 7:13:49 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: sandyeggo
"That's somewhat of a hazy issue right now," said Sherman.
The SSPX sacraments being a separate issue, there wouldn't be any problem with FSSP or ICK or indult sacraments, right? A universal indult would take care of any haziness I would think.
Obviously the Sacraments are valid even if they are in the traditional Rites. This is true even for the SSPX, generally. The question is if they are licit, and if done with the approval of the heirarchy, they obviously are. Regardless, there are clearly no questions of validity at an Indult parish.

The loon from the US Bishops conference is a complete idiot if he truly thinks that the validity of the Sacraments is in question. Think about it, what's necessary for a valid Baptism? It doesn't have to be in any Rite, nor does it require a priest. It only requires water and the very brief formula "I baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." For some reason I suspect that maybe the old Rite meets this formula.

As to the Eucharist, given the grant of the indult and past usage for 500 years, I can't see how anyone could seriously contest validity. For marriage the priest is just a witness. Confession, again, for validity only requires a simple formula, one that is clearly met by the old Rites.

So either the Bishop's conference guy is a complete idiot who failed his Baltimore catechism class (and would fail it again today), or perhaps he worries about if they are licit or not. Even that, though, hardly seems like a valid concern once the Bishop approves, and given the evidence that the Vatican approves of the FSSP and Campos.

Bottom line: like nearly all other bureaucrats at the UCCSB, this one is probably another liberal dissenter who hates to see any more latin.

patent

11 posted on 01/18/2006 7:30:34 PM PST by patent (A baby is God's opinion that life should go on. Carl Sandburg)
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To: Ercolino

Father Barreiro bumpus ad summum


12 posted on 01/18/2006 8:00:06 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: narses
Traditionalists: "We WILL reach a conclusion"
Reuters and AFP (France Presse) have reported on it, but they have not transcribed the exact words. Below is a translation of the interview (French)which the Superior-General of the Fraternity of Saint Pius X, Bishop Bernard Fellay, granted at Radio-France to the [French] Association of Religious Information Journalists.

For copyright reasons, I present only excerpts (those I consider the most important) of the interview. ...

13 posted on 01/18/2006 8:02:50 PM PST by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: narses
Conflict?????

Make that the declaration in Ecclesia Dei Afflicta that SSPX is in schism and its adherents excommunicated. That was resolved by Ecclesia Dei Afflicta. If Benedict XVI or any other pope lifts those sanctions, we will know. Hopefully, a full measure of humiliation and penance and renunciation of Marcel will be indispensible minima as preconditions required of SSPX before any return to Catholicism by the schismatic excommunicati. Permanent withdrawal froim the world of each and every SSPX bishop as well. Just one Elk's opinion.

The Catholic group referenced in the article is Una Voce. SSPX is still a schism of the excommunicated and has richly deserved its fate.

14 posted on 01/19/2006 2:56:21 AM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: AlaninSA
The older ones who know it are a bit frail...and the young ones don't know it. Either way, you find it tough to hear the priest...who's murmuring the liturgy either due to age-related weakness or age-related fear of messing up something he really doesn't know.

If they practice and say, use a mike????????

I'm sorry being in theater and the arts, there's ways to get around this.

15 posted on 01/19/2006 5:54:41 AM PST by Desdemona (Music Librarian and provider of cucumber sandwiches, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary. Hats required.)
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To: Ercolino
The traditional Mass, celebrated in Latin and marked by long periods of silence and private devotions by the faithful, emphasizes a personal relationship with God.

And the problem with this is....?

This is a big reason a lot of us go to Adoration - which has been persecuted. It seems like there are people out there who don't want to do any reflecting or deep thinking. They'd rather be "entertained" and that is not what Mass is about.

16 posted on 01/19/2006 5:59:14 AM PST by Desdemona (Music Librarian and provider of cucumber sandwiches, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary. Hats required.)
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To: Ercolino
The traditional Mass, celebrated in Latin and marked by long periods of silence and private devotions by the faithful, emphasizes a personal relationship with God.

"It's a whole different approach to the celebration of liturgy," said Monsignor Anthony F. Sherman, associate director of the Secretariat for the Liturgy at the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

The current Mass dispenses with most of the mystical features of the Tridentine form and invites parishioners into a more communal worship.

This revolution in the emphasis for spiritual worship echoes the rise of communism in the twentieth century. Perhaps it was merely a response to the tide of secularism, but the argument can easily be made that it is an adoption of secular mores, which is nothing new. The Church has a need from time to time of reform due to the effect of creeping secularism. Perhaps, now that communism has fallen, we can return to our personal relationship with God, rather than the collectivist version we've had to endure. A sign of hope is to be found of all places in post-modern philosophy with its emphasis on the personal nature of Truth, however a sign of despair is modern politics and economics with its emphasis on globalism.

17 posted on 01/19/2006 6:45:42 AM PST by TradicalRC (No longer to the right of the Pope...)
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: ELS

Indeed. HH has moved the ball and Bp. Fellay is catching it. The barkin dogs in the manger notwithstanding, the prodigal is returning and the fatted calf will be killed.


19 posted on 01/19/2006 10:57:25 AM PST by narses (St Thomas says “lex injusta non obligat”)
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To: Desdemona

It's actually held in the chapel of a nursing home. The archdiocese had (until recently) a wonderful archbishop who (sadly) wasn't a big fan of the Latin Mass. The chapel is small (not much bigger than my living room - and I don't have a big house) and the place is fairly run down.

Maybe now, under our new Opus Dei-member archbishop, we'll be able to bring this wonderful Mass into a proper church.


20 posted on 01/19/2006 4:17:20 PM PST by AlaninSA (It's one nation under God -- brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: narses

Nothing prodigal about the SSPX. The analogy I like is that of a married woman who moves out of the home, away from a husband who beats her. Doesn't mean she's divorced, doesn't mean she thinks of herself as not married, doesn't mean she doesn't recognize him as her husband. But a body's gotta do what a body's gotta do sometimes.


21 posted on 01/20/2006 3:00:36 AM PST by WillOTerry
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