Posted on 02/11/2006 5:17:24 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o
A rash of dubious miracles and rival congregations is trying the Vatican’s patience
RELIGIOUS fervour swept southern California this winter when a statue of the Virgin Mary was claimed to be crying blood. ...In May a statue of St Pìo of Pietrelcina wept blood in a church in Marsicovetere, southern Italy — although in this case the diocese excluded “supernatural intervention” when tests showed that the blood belonged to a woman.
Indeed, such “private revelations” have proliferated. ... But of the 295 such episodes reported since 1905, the Vatican has affirmed the authenticity of just 11, among them the appearances of the Virgin Mary to three children at Fátima, Portugal, in 1917, and the visitation of Jesus to St Faustina Kowalska, a Polish nun, in the 1930s.
While the faithful may accept or reject such revelations, most, according to the Vatican, involve false seers who are either deluded or on the make, and these are beginning to cause problems for the Church.
Pope Benedict, for one, takes them seriously. Three years ago, while Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), he said that private revelations posed a threat to the unity of the Church and warranted an “exemplary pastoral response” from the Holy See.
By that time the future Pope had already ruled against claims that Mary appeared at Garabandal, Spain; forbade Catholics to go on pilgrimage to Medjugorje, Bosnia-Herzegovina, where the Virgin Mary is also said to be appearing; warned the faithful against the apocalyptic murmurings of Vassula Ryden; and ordered Father Stefano Gobbi to stop using Our Lady Speaks to Her Beloved Priests as the title for books containing similar eschatological content.
Benedict is now already moving against private revelations ...
(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...
What? No more Virgin Mary's on a tortilla?
Ping
So what is he going to do about it?
forbade Catholics to go on pilgrimage to Medjugorje, Bosnia-Herzegovina, where the Virgin Mary is also said to be appearing; warned the faithful against the apocalyptic murmurings of Vassula Ryden;
The above two are really incorrect. Catholics to my knowledge are not forbidden to go to Medjugorie by the Vatican at all. Also as to Vassula Ryden, the POpe ,when he was a Cardinal, very much modified the warning as to Ryden after a sort of extradinary meeting between her and his office.
I miss the good old days - the false prophets used to be put on the rack, or strappadoed, carted around the town in the executioner's cart while tortured by red-hot pincers, then made to recant in public, and finally burned - just imagine the amount of free entertainment for the populace! And nowadays it is merely boring.
I'm pleased that the Pope is showing such prudence on these issues.
What an unecessary and ridiculous remark. The author just couldn't report on this without letting his anti-Catholic bigotry show, could he? He also obviously hasn't paid much attention to the content of many false seers and apparitions. There is plenty of darkness to be found among these things - regular old orthodox Catholicism looks bright and joyful in comparison to some of the things preached by false seers and apparitions.
I'm very pleased that Benedict is cracking down on this because it does damage the faith of so many people. It is a horrible thing for the people caught up in it, especially if the "apparition" or "seer" is demonic in origin, which may very well be the case in some instances.
Also this nonsense gives great scandal. I knew some folks in college who were obsessed with apparitions. They were constantly harping on one false one after another, believing that great apocalyptic things would happen on specific dates and not being the least bit discouraged when the prophecies failed to come true. They also never seemed concerned with discerning whether the content of these apparitions was orthodox or whether the Church had approved them.
By all outward appearances, these people were very devout Catholics - loved John Paul II, prayed all the time, daily Mass, adoration, all that. These weren't defiant schismatics but rather had no clue there was anything wrong with what they were doing.
Anyhow, unfortunately these apparitionists were sometimes the only "devout Catholics" that non-Catholics or lukewarm nominal Catholics came across. When the apparitionists then started saying nonsense like Mary is a God, we aren't allowed to call her "Mary" anymore, a giant crucifix will appear in the sky next month, and so on just imagine what that did for non-Catholics' attitudes towards Catholicism. Not knowing any better, not knowing that the "Catholics" who were ranting at them are deeply unorthodox, they would quite rightly conclude that Catholicism is a weird, cult-like, idolatrous, and superstitious religion. People that may have become Catholic or returned to the practice of their Catholic faith now may never do so due to the example set by these looney tunes.
He has a few options, none of them completely effective, but offering some hope of protecting the flock from delusions.
First, prompt investigation of the type which demonstrated that the blood coming from the Padre Pio statue was from a female. That cools people's jets pretty quick.
Second, sound preaching and teaching so people realize that deception, delusion, and indigestion are far commoner than genuine mystical phenomena. That alerts people that the source of an "apparition" may be hoax, hell, or a hamburger.
Third, prompt ecclesiastical sanctions against involvement in spurious mysticism, especially by the clergy. I understand that the very dubious Vassula Ryden has spoken in churches with priests and bisops looking on. This rubbish has to stop.
Fourth, encouragement for public displays of legitimate piety, such as Corpus Christi processions, pilgrmages to shrines of Mary and the martyrs, the solemn public proclamation of fasts and the celebration of feasts. I suspect that if people don't have authentic public ways to manifest the Faith, their unattended "hunger for holiness" will give the hucksters a luster of undeserved attractiveness.
JP2 talked the talk. Looks like B16 will walk the walk (and not a moment too soon.)
I agree with waht you said but as to Vassula Ryden there seems to be a drawback from the condemation that they issued earlier.
I had the same experience in college. When I was there the "three days of darkness" and having to buy beezwax candles because no electric lights were going to work was the craze. I even believed it for a while lol.
Sounds like The Black Legend of the Spanish Inquisition; or a dream isnpired by --- like I said --- a hamburger gone wrong.
For a different view of the Inquisition, from Thomas F. Madden, professor and chair of the department of history at Saint Louis University, check this out:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/madden200406181026.asp
He makes the point that the Inquisition actually saved the lives of a number of people who would otherwise have been torn apart by politically-motivated lords or mob hysteria. It was not unheard-of for accused criminals held on charges by secular courts, to commit some technical blasphemy in order to get their case transferred to the Inquisition, where they could hope for careful inveestigation, greater procedural justice, and more clemency in sentencing.
Sad to say, but too many of these messages provide little more than fodder for the Jack Chick crowd. Ever read any of his antiCatholic tracts? One does not know whether to laugh or cry. I've read enough of this stuff to wonder about the validity of any miracle; I need help!
A big catholic apologist on his blog was talking about meeting the Reclusive Jack Chick. It was really funny. The guy is very paranoid.
Please read Luca Landucci - his is an eyewitness account of what was done to one false prophet Girolamo Savonarola, although they hanged him first and burned him only later - creepy humanism was at work even in 1498. No legends, black or otherwise, are needed, as the reality is/was more sordid than any legends. But just imagine what a soft drink/hot dogs concession would bring on such an occasion! Also the rental of benches and chairs and beer stand, eh?
No comment. ;~D
Do you have a reliable source for yur contention about a relaxation of the Vatican's view on Medjugorje and Ryden? I'm pretty skeptical that such is the case, especially with Ryden, whose prblems vis-a-vis Catholic doctrine are pretty self-evident.
That would be James Akin. Although it seems he prefers to be called "Jimmy Akin" now. Good guy, but he's losing something on the gravitas and credibility indexes with this "Jimmy" business, IMHO.
I am not a huge devotee of Vassula but I have followed her for a couple of years. I guess her Sept 11 "prediction" got my attention. My mqain interest is the possibilty that this might promote dialouge with the Orthodox. WHo knows? ANyway this info is from her site but has all the correspondence including the letter from Cardinal Ratzinger that "modified" the Vaticans view toward her. http://www.tlig.org/cdf.html As to Medujorie I will look. A fellow freeper told me that the vatican has ordered all pilgrimages to be temp suspended. I know there has always been local opposition from the Bishop there. But I have not heard that pilgrimages had been ordered to be stopped. I try to find out but I think with so many devotees in Louisiana to medujorie I would have heard about that but perhaps I am wrong.
So true.
Boy, do you ever have that right! LOL!
Catholicism isn't the only religion with false prophets leading people down the wrong paths.
Kamen's book on the Inquisition reminds us that most of the "facts" about both the Roman and Spanish Inquisitions were simply not correct. Only the tales about Torquemada and the deeds of the Inquisition in the Spanish Netherlands are substantially correct. In each case, the Inquistion was serving a political purpose.
Not true. You need to do some more research.
See Unity Publishing and his very extensive site on apparations.
When you compare the so called seers of Medujorie to those of the three Fatima children...
Compare Francisco to Ivan.
I hear that Ivan, the main seer who Mary is supposedly still talks to daily, is getting a divorce. He is way too worldly and materialistic for someone so close to the supernatural.
that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface....
In context, Church tribunals offered both more procedural due process and more clemency than either the "secular arm" or the mob.
At that point, the "seers" and their Franciscan handlers interpreted "no pilgrimages" as "no OFFICIAL pilgrimages," meaning, no diocese-sponsored pilgrimages led by a bishop. So, let the chartered flights continue and let the tour buses roll.
My own opinion is that it started out as a semi-innocent adolescent prank; it got seriously outta whack when the Franciscans latched onto it as a vehicle for their dispute with the bishop; and they got in so deep they couldn't get out of it without admitting that they'd been faking it for years.
And let me cautiously add that I wouldn't rule out demonic opportunism popping in from time to time. Remember that rebellious spiritual entities CAN make accurate predictive prophecies; and that Satan can appear as an "angel of light."
Non sequitur. It's the final result, and not the "procedural due process" that matters [see "Malleus Maleficarum" on such fine procedural topics like "whether it is permissible to offer the accused witch her life to induce confession and then to go back on that offer" - it was permissible], for what does it matter whether the rack was applied first or the strappado? Church courts of the time were dirty and bloody places, just as secular courts were. Later they became cleaner not because of their nonexisting innate goodness, but when their jurisdiction was drastically clipped.
In addition to the link I had in my previous post, here's a second Thomas Madden link:
http://www.crisismagazine.com/october2003/madden.htm
Intriguing quote:
"After the reforms, the Spanish Inquisition had very few critics. Staffed by well-educated legal professionals, it was one of the most efficient and compassionate judicial bodies in Europe.
"No major court in Europe executed fewer people than the Spanish Inquisition. This was a time, after all, when damaging shrubs in a public garden in London carried the death penalty. Across Europe, executions were everyday events. But not so with the Spanish Inquisition. In its 350-year lifespan only about 4,000 people were put to the stake. Compare that with the witch-hunts that raged across the rest of Catholic and Protestant Europe, in which 60,000 people, mostly women, were roasted. Spain was spared this hysteria precisely because the Spanish Inquisition stopped it at the border.
"When the first accusations of witchcraft surfaced in northern Spain, the Inquisition sent its people to investigate. These trained legal scholars found no believable evidence for witches’ Sabbaths, black magic, or baby roasting. It was also noted that those confessing to witchcraft had a curious inability to fly through keyholes.
"While Europeans were throwing women onto bonfires with abandon, the Spanish Inquisition slammed the door shut on this insanity. (For the record, the Roman Inquisition also kept the witch craze from infecting Italy.)"
I'd be inclined to suppose your last paragraph has some bearing here. I don't think it was all fakeryy. These kids saw SOMETHING. Too many people have gone to Medjugorje and reported tangible, "miraculous" events for it to be all hokum.
However, the character of many of the alleged seers leaves more than a little bit to be desired, the Franciscans there have not given off the odor of sanctity in all of this, the Vatican is more than sceptical and the reputed Virgin herself has made statements that don't sound like something from Heaven, eg.: all religions are effectively equal in worth. Hmmm.
Given that it doesn't appear to be simple fraud, yet it also doesn't appear to be the Virgin Mary, I've tended for years to think something demonic is going on there.
What is Benedict's thinking about the supposed apparitions in Akita, Japan from 1975 to 1981?? Someone gave me a book about this, and it is one of the cases where Mary supposedly made coredemptrix claims.
I read the book (which was obviously written by someone who believed in the apparitions very strongly), but it was written back in 1994. At that time, they were still trying to get final determinations made about the validity of it all (one Bishop had said it was invalid, and then after that, another Bishop said it WAS valid).
I cannot find recent information about the status of this anywhere on the web. Does anyone out there know?? I am extremely doubtful, to say the least, but apparently a lot of people believe in this one (or at least they did back in the early to mid 90's).
I'll try to find out about Akita for you.
How is a revelation affirmed?
If it's a healing, I believe the usual criteria are that it must be (1) medically inexplicable (2) instantaneous (3) complete and (4) permanent. So you need documentation and the testimony of medical esperts that the healing was not caused by drugs or other treatments; that it wasn't a mere gradual or partial improvement; that there hasn't been any relapse.
If it's a teaching, it must not be in conflict with any of the truths taught by the Catholic Church. Nor must it be a novelty acompanied by a demand that all must believe it under pain of sin. This is because we believe that God has already revealed everything we need to know for salvation.
If it's any other kind of phenomonen, the usual evidentiary methods and rules apply, that you would expect in a court (forensic) inquiry or in a scientific investigation.
The Church may not sponsor any pilgrimages to Medjugorje. The apparitions have been condemned twice, and the fruit of disobedience among the Franciscans and the seers is proof enough for me that this is a sham.
Do I believe there are conversions and vocations coming from that locale? Yes. But it would be no different if thousand upon thousands of people showed up in your backyard everyday for thirteen years, seeking God, for, "those who seek, will find". Grace is everywhere, so I believe people are having genuine, positive religious experiences, but I don't think it has anything to do with the Virgin Mary.
The Vatican will never approve the apparition because the messages lay immense vulnerability to deception (Fatima's messages were accompanied by a miracle pre-announced by the Virgin - the miracle of the sun - as public proof of her origin.)
Plus, the Church has the very delicate matter of hundreds of thousands of pilgrims who've attached such certitude to the apparitions, that an official Vatican condemnation could create a horrific crises of faith for those who attribute their conversions to the virgin of Medjugorje and not to the grace of God (which may ironically involve the Virgin Mary anyhow).
Satan is cunning. He would gladly build up the faithful now to blow them up later. I don't personally believe God would bestow an apparition of the Blessed Mother on society (and in such magnitude and frequency) which could not be reasonably authenticated by the Church.
Approved apparitions usually reveal something about the faith. In Lourdes, it was Mary declaring herself the "Immaculate Conception" not long after it was dogmatzied by the Church. In Fatima, it was the need to consecrate Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart, foretelling the onslaught of communism. With Saint Faustina, it was the Divine Mercy. With St. Dominic, it was the Rosary. St. Simon Stock was given the scapular. LaSalette gave us the Miraculous Medal. And so on...
Oh well. That's why we have to listen to our bishops, whether we want to or not. I know many people who were directly involved with Medjugorje. I was a staunch believer for many many years. In a sense, my own conversion was indirectly related to Medjugorje. But I realized that the Virgin Mary came to me in my heart, right where I was standing, and did not demand that I go to Yugoslavia to find her. If she's really appearing there, wonderful. It doesn't affect my salvation. I would love to go to Fatima and Lourdes, which have been authenticated by the Church, but I would encourage that those who wish to make a pilgrimage to a holy site blessed with the appearance of the Blessed Mother would visit the sites that are approved by the Church.
Also, Vasula Ryden is most definitely off-limits. She was recently slated to appear at a Los Angeles archdiocesan sponsored event, but they cancelled her because her 'locutions' are not considered of supernatural origin.
I doubt a re-visitation will change the minds of the Vatican.
Spot on.
http://www.apparitions.org/akita.html
Keep in mind, though, that even if there were authentic apparitions of the Virgin Mary, each and every reported incident there may not be authentic. It's quite possible for one genuine apparition to be followed by dozens of spurious locutions, pronouncements of hallucinatin' ladies of a certain age, eccentric interpreters, etc.
This happens even at 100% legit places like Fatima, Guadalupe and Lourdes: These things always attract wackadoo commentators, overheated imitators, and sensation-craving, theologically elastic spiritual tourists, their backpacks and their minds stuffed with paperback heresies and iridescent fluff.
OK, thanks.
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