Posted on 02/17/2006 9:35:32 AM PST by NYer
"That abuses of this kind have surfaced historically is a different issue..."
You come across to me as a defendant of their weaknesses. Priests, bishops, ministers, camp counselors, boy scout leaders, etc., etc., CHOOSE their role in life. These positions require integrity, purity and honesty, to name some qualifications.
From all I've read, a significant number of homosexuals choose the priesthood. The Church has accepted them, until the cover-up was exposed.
I only touch on the current, known scandals.
The point I want to make is that anyone who has been given the authority to tell the rest of mankind how to lead their lives...should be above reproach him/herself.
Any one of them who has damaged another human being has committed a particularly insidious offense.
I don't know how you convince yourself, logically, that there is any excuse.
"...their damaged human nature"?...
I guess we are all tainted with the same nature and, hopefully, we don't sink to the level of depravity we've witnessed by too many of those in entrusted positions.
In regard to the abuse of young people by priests, it was covered up by bishops, etc. I tend to believe the publicized coverup named proven "conspirators". IMO many priests had to have heard such stories through the grapevine. If true, which ones set off an alarm to Catholic parents?
There are many fine people dedicating their time to youth groups: there are many dedicated priests. And then we have the other kind.
"our damaged human nature".
NO, not an atheist just a struggling christian. But the scientific side of me tells me that there will not be many people in heaven if all those rules are requirements. Personally, I have a lot of hope that God understands my heart, so not worried about what you say but try to listen to other people's side of the story. What about you? Do you believe you have crossed all the "t's" and dotted all the "i's" .
Sometimes I think that God's heaven has been a total failure because it seems that men just do not want to love one another very much or very often and they are always asking for forgiveness and making mistakes. Does God really believe that these spirits will be different in Heaven? All I can say is Hades is or will be a busy place.
(depends on whether one's spirit goes there at time of death or when Jesus returns). Like you say, it is spiritual, but I have heard that Jesus body really rose into Heaven. So, who really knows but God and sometimes I feel that the happiness provided by him while we are on earth is enough if we follow Jesus teachings, and heaven will be extra.
Even scientists believe that the world is too orderly to not have a some sort of intelligence who originated the plan.
Although, my scientific self also tells me that the world is certainly a better place because of him. So, who knows, maybe heaven is possible, but most of people I know will probably not be there.
One question does man's spirit go directly to heaven at death if he qualifies or does everyone have to wait until Jesus returns?
Brother:
I am NOT going to bash. However, I would think that after the Western Church lost a good portion of itself, due to the error of indulgences, that they would scrap the idea. Indulgences are not grounded in Scripture, or in Holy Tradition.
That mis-conception has been shot-down a lot here recently on Free Republic. I can think of no one in at least the first 1600 or 1700 years of the Christian Church who had that mis-conceived idea. The Church fathers spoke Greek and they never came to that conclusion. Please read this, especially the quotes of from the saints of the early church, and note the years they said it.
Origins of Peter as Pope
The New Testament contains five different metaphors for the foundation of the Church (Matt. 16:18, 1 Cor. 3:11, Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:5–6, Rev. 21:14). One metaphor that has been disputed is Jesus Christ’s calling the apostle Peter "rock": "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).
Some have tried to argue that Jesus did not mean that his Church would be built on Peter but on something else.
Some argue that in this passage there is a minor difference between the Greek term for Peter (Petros) and the term for rock (petra), yet they ignore the obvious explanation: petra, a feminine noun, has simply been modifed to have a masculine ending, since one would not refer to a man (Peter) as feminine. The change in the gender is purely for stylistic reasons.
These critics also neglect the fact that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and, as John 1:42 tells us, in everyday life he actually referred to Peter as Kepha or Cephas (depending on how it is transliterated). It is that term which is then translated into Greek as petros. Thus, what Jesus actually said to Peter in Aramaic was: "You are Kepha and on this very kepha I will build my Church."
The Church Fathers, those Christians closest to the apostles in time, culture, and theological background, clearly understood that Jesus promised to build the Church on Peter, as the following passages show.
Tatian the Syrian
"Simon Cephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Cephas, and on this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it" (The Diatesseron 23 [A.D. 170]).
Tertullian
"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).
"[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).
The Letter of Clement to James
"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).
The Clementine Homilies
"[Simon Peter said to Simon Magus in Rome:] ‘For you now stand in direct opposition to me, who am a firm rock, the foundation of the Church’ [Matt. 16:18]" (Clementine Homilies 17:19 [A.D. 221]).
Origen
"Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’ [Matt. 14:31]" (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. . . . If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
"There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering" (Letters 43[40]:5 [A.D. 253]).
"There [John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. The people joined to the priest and the flock clinging to their shepherd are the Church. You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishop, and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priests of God, believing that they are
secretly [i.e., invisibly] in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and Catholic, is not split nor divided, but it is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere one to another" (ibid., 66[69]:8).
Firmilian
"But what is his error . . . who does not remain on the foundation of the one Church which was founded upon the rock by Christ [Matt. 16:18], can be learned from this, which Christ said to Peter alone: ‘Whatever things you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:19]" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74[75]:16 [A.D. 253]).
"[Pope] Stephen [I] . . . boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid [Matt. 16:18]. . . . [Pope] Stephen . . . announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter" (ibid., 74[75]:17).
Ephraim the Syrian
"[Jesus said:] ‘Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples’" (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).
Optatus
"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).
Ambrose of Milan
"[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . . ’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?" (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).
"It is to Peter that he says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal" (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of David 40:30 [A.D. 389]).
Pope Damasus I
"Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has not been placed at the forefront [of the churches] by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).
Jerome
"‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division" (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).
"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]).
Augustine
"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement. ... In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found" (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).
Council of Ephesus
"Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome], said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).
Sechnall of Ireland
"Steadfast in the fear of God, and in faith immovable, upon [Patrick] as upon Peter the [Irish] church is built; and he has been allotted his apostleship by God; against him the gates of hell prevail not" (Hymn in Praise of St. Patrick 3 [A.D. 444]).
Pope Leo I
"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the apostles. . . . He wished him who had been received into partnership in his undivided unity to be named what he himself was, when he said: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18], that the building of the eternal temple might rest on Peter’s solid rock, strengthening his Church so surely that neither could human rashness assail it nor the gates of hell prevail against it" (Letters 10:1 [A.D. 445]).
Council of Chalcedon
"Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod, together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, has stripped him [Dioscorus] of the episcopate" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 451]).
http://www.catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp
I struggle every day with my faith. The longest distance in the universe is the 18 inches between the head and the heart. I’m a smart guy, and I ‘reasoned’ my way to disbelief many years ago. When my heart was opened and let in the Holy Spirit, I began to use my intellect to discover all that God has revealed to us. Read Frank Sheed’s “Theology and Sanity” A thinking man who rejects God is insane.
I hope I see my friends in heaven, but I know that many are called but few are chosen. The curse of free will – some of us choose not to listen to God’s revealed word.
I believe that death marks the separation of the body and soul. The soul continues to live on after death – it is immortal in nature and so it does not die when the body perishes. Although the judgment of the entire human race will take place at the end of time, each individual will be judged at the time of his or her death. Those who are united with God will be blessed in the Beatific Vision– being caught up in the vision of God as He is in Himself. On the other hand, death will mark the beginning of eternal damnation for those who have rejected salvation.
It's in the Koine Greek version you don't know how to read!
;-o)
Herman Newtix. Didn't he play second base for the 1934 Phillies?
Do you suppose, *perhaps*, that the other Apostles were within earshot of the dialogue between Jesus and Peter? After all, He had asked ALL of them who they thought the Christ was. Peter alone stepped out from them with an answer. But they were ALL standing there, no? Therefore, they ALL had to be admonished not to reveal the contents of the discussion with Peter.
Your argument is a non-starter.
"Indulgences are not grounded in Scripture, or in Holy Tradition."
Oh well, not according to your interpretation, at any rate.
If you truly trust Scripture, and are cognizant of history, you can come to not other conclusion.
More specifically, not "Orthodox" interpretation.
I've made this argument several times before here on FR threads, but consider it again. The early Church - the VERY early Church - bore witness to its faith in writing starting from the end of the first Century. They discussed theology, liturgy, sacraments, and apologetics geared to hostile pagans, among other things. A collection of their writings, commonly known as The Fathers of the Church, spans the time from the end of the 1st Century right into the 8th Century.
This collection of writings gives incredible witness to modern Catholic beliefs and practices, as they can clearly be shown to form a continuum from their day to ours. At the very least, a comparison of their beliefs and practices with Protestantism will demonstrate profound differences on even many of the basics. I would strongly suggest finding the collection at nearly any library and begin reading.
Usually the collection comes in a 35-40 volume set of books, but, even with such a huge baseline, I'm not worried that you will find any patterns that deviate markedly from modern Catholic orthodoxy. Indeed, the overwhelming consistency of these early voices demonstrates not only our doctrine, but the Holy Spirit's guidance in preserving it. If such a large set seems too daunting a task to wade through, or you would like to buy something a little more affordable, there is a three volume paperback set of excerpts of the Fathers called "The Faith of the Early Fathers," by William A. Jurgens. It's *excellent* as a resource to own. Here's a link to it at Amazon.com: http:www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0814604323
If you study the Fathers, you will see what you are looking for as a ratification of and verification of the Catholic Faith. Consider that these early churchmen could NOT collectively be in error without *destroying* the very validity of Christianity. After all, if they got it "wrong" so quickly, it makes Jesus out to be a liar and a fraud, who could not even safeguard His new faith even from the beginning. In the light of Matthew 28:20, this conclusion is *inescapeable* if the early Church was so much in "error." I urge you to prayerfully consider that.
That link I posted left out the two virgules after http:
The correct link is:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0814604323
Sorry about that!
oh wow, a bunch of "Catholic writings" I'm sold
Let he who has eyes see...
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