Pre-Trib Rapture Arguments

2/24/06 | conserv 371

[conserv371]

Right now there is huge debate going on about whether the church will go through the tribulation. After studying some passages that seem to convincingly lean toward a pre-trib rapture. First of all, Jesus in Luke 17:26, states that "And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man." We learn of two key individuals during that time Enoch and Noah. Enoch who some have seen as a type of the church is translated before the Flood while Noah is delivered through the world-wide judgment.

We also find in Luke 12:37-40 gives evidence it could happen at second or third watch like a thief and to be ready since the Son of man comes at an hour when you don't think He will come. Jesus further exhorts that servants may start treating fellow servants harshly and getting drunk. The lord will come in a day when he looks not for him and at an hour when he is not aware. This seems to suggest some semblance of peace since drunkeness occurs in this case with ease. In fact, the servant has said in his heart, "My lord delays in his coming"; These give the appearance of a lack of persecution going on world-wide since the servant is not watching. With persecution, there would be no time for drunkeness since people would be hiding for their lives.

James states in 5:8b "for the coming of the Lord draws near."

In I Thess. 5:2, the Apostle Paul states that "the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night." What does a professional thief do? He plunders the house without the occupants waking up until morning to find their valuables gone. Again there is calm while the robbery is taking place. Furthermore Paul states, they shall say Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes upon them, as birth pains upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. This seems to indicate there is a them and us. Sudden destruction on them but you are not surprised. In vs. 9, 10 he states "For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. The tribulation is the wrath of the Lamb so why would the Jesus put wrath of His spiritual body after His physical body experienced God's wrath.

Also, in II Thess. we find that the Holy Spirit with whom believers are sealed with is prevent the mystery of iniquity to work fully. The Holy Spirit must be taken out of the way before the wicked one "Anti-christ" is revealed. All mention of the churches goes silent after chapter 3 of Revelation while the man of peace (Anti-christ)on the white horse shows up in Rev. 6. The last church (Laodicean church) is not looking for the rapture. Also, Christ states to the church of Philadelphia that he will keep them from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Tribulation)

No, the truth is we must watch and be ready for Christ's imminent return. I believe the rapture will be a cataclysmic event that make the world beg for a ruler of peace to calm down the world. God likes to have major events to display His power so it would seem likely that the Tribulation will begin with the vanishing of Christ's spiritual body which states in Romans 11:25 requires the fulness of the Gentiles be come in before it happens which is when God will take away the blindness of Israel. Right now, when a google search is done, one can see many people turning to christ. The harvest rate is accelerating. Jesus at Rev. 22:20 says, "Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

[GrandEagle]

HI again!

I think I understand Matt 24:39 a little differently.

It seems to me that the subject of discussion - and the reason for the comparison between the two time in history - is the suddenness and unexpectedness (not sure that is a word) of our Saviors appearance. Note:

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

It is good to chat with you again - I guess I've been away on creation/evo threads too long!

GE

[GrandEagle]

Hello Clay+Iron_Times

Again, I would repeat, any and all specific time references given in Gods word are after the tribulation. We (an I include myself because I once taught this) shuffle things around and assume things have to be this way and that way, but in the end, we have no authority it insert the way we think things ought to be into Gods word.
Use Gods word to interpret Gods word; not someones commentary.

Cordially,
GE

[GrandEagle]

Again, reasonable minds can differ on this for we only see these things dimly. Just be prepared.
On this there can be no doubt my brother (or sister) in Christ!

Have a great day!
GE

[DouglasKC]

1. The sheep and goat judgment. In Matthew, chapter 25, at the end of the tribulation period--Matthew 25, you have a judgment occurring. We know that it is at the end of the tribulation because it discusses the tribulation period in chapter 24. We know that the "abomination of desolation" occurs in the tribulation (24:15 and all these things and so forth), and then verse 31 of Chapter 25, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." Now what's that? That's not the rapture is it? That has got to be the Second Coming to set up the Kingdom--"when he comes in His glory to sit on His throne."

The "rapture" IS the second coming of Christ. This occurs, as you said, in chapter 24. The sheep and goat separation in chapter 25 is:

Mat 25:31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

It corresponds to:

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

This is the sheep and goat separation AFTER the thousand years have passed:

Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Here's the timeline. Christ returns. At his return, those who are Christians either alive, or dead, are resurrected to spirit bodies. This is the first resurrection. They live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. After the thousand years, all nations, the rest of dead, are judged by Christ, who sits on the great white throne.

You're making an assumption in Matthew 25 that no time passes between Christ's return and the judgement of the nations, non-Christians. This is shown in Revelation to not be the case.

[GrandEagle]

Here's the timeline. Christ returns. At his return, those who are Christians either alive, or dead, are resurrected to spirit bodies. This is the first resurrection. They live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. After the thousand years, all nations, the rest of dead, are judged by Christ, who sits on the great white throne.
Exactly. Thanks, I never plainly stated that.

[Uri’el-2012]

HI again! I think I understand Matt 24:39 a little differently.

It seems to me that the subject of discussion -
and the reason for the comparison between the two time in history
- is the suddenness and unexpectedness (not sure that is a word) of our Saviors appearance. Note:

Mat 24:3 6 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

................. GE 41 posted on 02/25/2006 8:34:45 AM MST by GrandEagle

Interesting that the only day that we know not the day or hour is G-d's Feast of Trumpets.
It is the first day of Tishrei( this year it begins at sundown on the September 22, 2006)

b"shem Y'shua

[ShandaLear]

The Biblical pattern does not support a pre-tribulation rapture. God does not rescue His people from adversity, He makes a way for them to go through it. This doctrine is a heresy that infilitrated the certain sects of Christianity in the 1800s. It is nothing more than wishful thinkng and escapism.

[GrandEagle]

Don't even joke about being a heretic, because you are obviously not.
Man, you should have seen the uproar when I discovered that I had been wrong!
First, let me say that I would never teach things directly contradicting my Pastor. I feel that God placed him there in our Church and he is responsible for what is being taught. I would be creating divisions in the Church and God really dislikes that.
When I first began to question, I postponed my class's study and switched to something else while I did my private study. (I teach the Adult SS class as well as being SS Superintendent.)
My Pastor, sensing something, called and asked me what was up so I discussed it with him. He in turn called two of my fellow church members and the five of us were going to have a study so I could understand the rapture. Well, it didn't quite work out that way so one of the guys was actually going to bring charges of heresy before the church and see if they would withdraw fellowship from me.
I brought out our doctrinal statement which states clearly that we believe in a PRE MELINNEAL return of Jesus Christ. We discussed it and he finally agreed that my position met the Pre Melinneal position.
Well over the next year or so my Pastor and I studied this out and he too soon saw what I saw.

It was a close call, and you are right it is no joking matter, but some are willing to take it that far.

Cordially,

[GrandEagle]

Interesting that the only day that we know not the day or hour...
It is MOST interesting!
Especially when it appears that the sound of a trumpet will announce his arrival!

GE

[Seven_0]

It seems to me that the subject of discussion - and the reason for the comparison between the two time in history - is the suddenness and unexpectedness (not sure that is a word) of our Saviors appearance. Note:

What would the thief in the night do if every eye sees him? He is only successful if no one sees him. Scripture does not come right out and say that there are two events, just as the Old Testament does not come out and say that Christ would come twice.

For me, pre-trib answers this question, but it does not leave me with no questions. By now you have probably noticed that each of the various passages of scripture used, has at least two interpretations, one for each side of the debate. I believe that God intentionally gave the scripture as written so we would need to continually search the scriptures for tiebreakers. I also believe that Israel is one of these tiebreakers, and the data are still coming in. If we look closely, we can see the hand of God in the world today.

The idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is closely tied to the restoration of Israel. Their blindness, (they can't see Christ) continues even as the storm clouds gather. Though Israel has rejected Christ, he has not rejected them. Perhaps this is God's way of showing us who he is, for if God rejected Israel, what is to stop him from rejecting me.

Seven

[Uri’el-2012]

interesting that the only day that we know not the day or hour...

It is MOST interesting!

Especially when it appears that the sound of a trumpet will announce his arrival!

More than one sounding of the trumpet ending with the final trump.

b'shem Y'shua

[blue-duncan]

" God does not rescue His people from adversity, He makes a way for them to go through it."

Then is it your opinion that the church will experience the wrath/judgments of God in the seventh seal, the seven trumpets and seven vials? I do not see where the church is mentioned in Rev. 9-16 or anyone being exempt from God's judment there. In fact it says those experiencing the judgments refuse to repent. Where is the church?
How do you interpret the rider on the white horse opening the first seal and what is His purpose?

To call those who follow a pre-trib system heretics implies that there is one true eschatological system that has been accepted by the church and I doubt that you can find any one system agreed on by all on this forum. You have labelled Harry Ironsides, Donald G. Barnhouse, Dwight Pentecost, John Walvoord and many other giants in the faith as heretics.

[GrandEagle]

To call those who follow a pre-trib system heretics
Hopefully in my posts I have not implied this.

I differ in view with my Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

GE

[William Terrell]

Biblically, it seems to me, God has never spared those whom He sets to do His will and trusts with His work from discomfort. Death? It is the end of discomfort for those of the Lord. Discomfort, including pain, is a thing of the living material body, and He uses that body to temper the soul and spirit.

The church, the bride of Christ has yet to be tempered, and who'll say that those who wish to be jerked out of the fray to avoid discomfort have the mettle to be servants of Him?

I intend to remain and wield His sword as He wills and endure hardship as He wills. In my opinion, any rapture is the removing of the deadwood so that the Lord can reign among the faithful. I personally work to not be among the former.

We all differ according to our wants. In the end there will be only one truth and it will be unavoidable.

Just my heart on the matter.

[blue-duncan]

"The church, the bride of Christ has yet to be tempered,"

Not to belabor the point, I'm sure that the church in Nigeria, Sudan, Pakistan, India, Indonesia or China might see this a little differently as will the churches of Communist countries past. But you use the phrase "bride of Christ" to describe the church. In Ephesians husbands are told to love their wives even as Christ loved the church (His Bride). Now if you are right that Christ is going to take His bride through His wrath/judgments, not just the trials and tribulations spoken of in the Epistles and James, what kind of example is that for the husband and wife relationship? Is that really a demonstration of love to expose the "weaker" spouse to the husband's wrath?

[William Terrell]

I'm sure some churches somewhere have experienced pain. But one temper doesn't trickle down to all others. It seems to me we are referring to a world event, here. I don't think we can judge God's love in human terms, or the love of Christ. Physical pain and death have meaning only in the material body.

[blue-duncan]

"I don't think we can judge God's love in human terms, or the love of Christ"

But he tells husbands to love their wives as Christ loved His church. We already have the example of God's love. The question is does that love expose the bride to the husband's wrath? My understanding is God's wrath is reserved for the unbeliever, not His bride, which would explain why there is no mention of the church during the wrath/judgments in Revelation.

[WalterSkinner]

..the resource which settled it for me some 30 years ago was "Things To Come" by J. Dwight Pentecost.

He did a fair comparison between the main rapture and millennial positions.

The pre-trib rapture and dispensational pre-millennial position is one I feel very confident in...

[GrandEagle]

My understanding is God's wrath is reserved for the unbeliever, not His bride, which would explain why there is no mention of the church during the wrath/judgments in Revelation.

I really hate to do a "hit and run" here, but I am at work so I can't fully participate here.
first, Jesus himself said:
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
I would submit to you that his wrath is not poured out on his church, but his Church is in the world where his wrath is being poured out.

Second, It is VERY dangerous to build a belief on what is NOT mentioned in Gods word.

Very cordially,
GE

[Jeremiah Jr]

Haftarah for Shabbat Erev Rosh Chodesh: (Torah section for the Shabbat)

Erev Rosh Chodesh, or when the New Moon falls on Sunday

I Shmuel (Samuel) 20:18-42 Then Jonathan said to David: "Tomorrow is the New Moon festival. You will be missed, because your seat will be empty. The day after tomorrow, toward evening, go to the place where you hid when this trouble began, and wait by the stone Ezel. I will shoot three arrows to the side of it, as though I were shooting at a target. Then I will send a boy and say, 'Go, find the arrows.' If I say to him, 'Look, the arrows are on this side of you; bring them here,' then come, because, as surely as HaShem lives, you are safe; there is no danger. But if I say to the boy, 'Look, the arrows are beyond you,' then you must go, because HaShem has sent you away. And about the matter you and I discussed--remember, HaShem is witness between you and me forever." So David hid in the field, and when the New Moon festival came, the king sat down to eat. He sat in his customary place by the wall, opposite Jonathan, and Abner sat next to Saul, but David's place was empty. Saul said nothing that day, for he thought, "Something must have happened to David to make him ceremonially unclean--surely he is unclean." But the next day, the second day of the month, David's place was empty again.

Then Saul said to his son Jonathan, "Why hasn't the son of Jesse come to the meal, either yesterday or today?" Jonathan answered, "David earnestly asked me for permission to go to Bethlehem. He said, 'Let me go, because our family is observing a sacrifice in the town and my brother has ordered me to be there. If I have found favor in your eyes, let me get away to see my brothers.' That is why he has not come to the king's table." Saul's anger flared up at Jonathan and he said to him, "You son of a perverse and rebellious woman! Don't I know that you have sided with the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of the mother who bore you? As long as the son of Jesse lives on this earth, neither you nor your kingdom will be established. Now send and bring him to me, for he must die!" "Why should he be put to death? What has he done?" Jonathan asked his father. But Saul hurled his spear at him to kill him. Then Jonathan knew that his father intended to kill David. Jonathan got up from the table in fierce anger; on that second day of the month he did not eat, because he was grieved at his father's shameful treatment of David.

In the morning Jonathan went out to the field for his meeting with David. He had a small boy with him, And he said to the boy, "Run and find the arrows I shoot." As the boy ran, he shot an arrow beyond him. When the boy came to the place where Jonathan's arrow had fallen, Jonathan called out after him, "Isn't the arrow beyond you?" Then he shouted, "Hurry! Go quickly! Don't stop!" The boy picked up the arrow and returned to his master. (The boy knew nothing of all this; only Jonathan and David knew.) Then Jonathan gave his weapons to the boy and said, "Go, carry them back to town." After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side [of the stone] and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with his face to the ground. Then they kissed each other and wept together--but David wept the most. Jonathan said to David, "Go in peace, for we have sworn friendship with each other in the name of HaShem, saying, 'HaShem is witness between you and me, and between your descendants and my descendants forever.'" Then David left, and Jonathan went back to the town.

Then Jonathan said to David: "Tomorrow is the New Moon festival. You will be missed, because your seat will be empty.

Ezel, depart.

From: Rosh Chodesh/New Moon

http://members.aol.com/gkilli/home/index.html Home

Certain Months begin with a ‘two day’ Rosh Chodesh

Rosh Chodesh

In Hebrew, Rosh Chodesh means, literally, "head of the month" or "first of the month." Rosh Chodesh is the first day of any new month. If a month is 30 days long, then the 30th day is treated as part of the Rosh Chodesh for the next month, and the Rosh Chodesh for next month extends for two days (the 30th of the earlier month and the 1st of the later month).

http://www.jewfaq.org/chodesh.htm

So the phrase, no man knows the day or hour, fits perfectly into a two day Rosh Chodesh! And after all, it’s always one of two days anywhere in the world (in Australia it’s tomorrow).