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Pre-Trib Rapture Arguments
2/24/06 | conserv 371

Posted on 02/24/2006 8:40:59 AM PST by conserv371

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1 posted on 02/24/2006 8:41:02 AM PST by conserv371
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To: conserv371
Enoch[,] who some have seen as a type of the church

Interesting. Do you believe Enoch is a type of the church? If so, is there any other basis for it, other than the fact that he was taken up before the flood?

2 posted on 02/24/2006 8:48:36 AM PST by newgeezer (Just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary.)
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To: newgeezer

Enoch's name means initiated, dedicated, disciplined. I find it interesting that it was 65 years before he started walking with God with indicates there was a time before he had the faith talked about in Heb. 11:5-6. We know he was a prophet because of Jude 14,15 which talks about the Lord coming with His saints (church and OT believers)and Paul says to the carnal church of Corinth that they were called to be saints.


3 posted on 02/24/2006 9:18:26 AM PST by conserv371
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To: conserv371
I once was a "pre-trib" person myself.
I'll give you a challenge. Find ANY reference to the return of Jesus Christ where there is a time reference that is not "After great Tribulation" or some similar statement. You will find none.
What you will find is that every time reference given is after the tribulation.

Cordially,
GE
4 posted on 02/24/2006 9:20:13 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: labette

later study ping


5 posted on 02/24/2006 9:36:03 AM PST by labette (In the beginning God created....)
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To: GrandEagle

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Where is it written that the church (believers) will wail and mourn at His second coming?


6 posted on 02/24/2006 9:59:25 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan

Believe me, I do understand.

Let me ask you this?

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Before or after the trubulation?


7 posted on 02/24/2006 10:05:14 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: blue-duncan
Obviously after:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
8 posted on 02/24/2006 10:12:04 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: blue-duncan
OOPS... Missed a part:
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
9 posted on 02/24/2006 10:13:54 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: GrandEagle
After the tribulation period. Chapter 20 describes the Millennial reign and follows chronologically the events of chapter 19. I understand the arguments for parallelism and spiritual resurrection but they don't seem reasonable to me.
10 posted on 02/24/2006 10:18:24 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: GrandEagle

Who are the 24 elders 12 tribes of Israel (OT believers)and 12 apostles (church)?
Why would the church of Thessalonika think they had missed the rapture and need the explanation of II Thessalonians 2, if the next thing we should be looking for is the anti-christ. So if we are saying mid-trib or pre-wrath, why is the Tribulation like a week? There is the marriage supper of the Lamb. I feels it makes sense that the second coming of Christ is a perfect 7 year period starting with Christ coming for His bride in the air and then ending with Christ and His bride coming back to rule the earth.


11 posted on 02/24/2006 10:40:42 AM PST by conserv371
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To: blue-duncan
I was always pre-trib. What I found when we did a study starting in Rev. is that every time reference, and I mean every single time reference when the return of Jesus is mentioned, is after the tribulation.
The typical "rapture" verse given as proof is:

1 Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice that there is no specific time reference given there either.

The thousand years in Rev 20:5 the Millennial reign true. But that is the "rest of the dead" or those who do not know Jesus as their Savior, who won't live until ater this 1000 years. This is for sure Scripture supporting a pre-Millennial resurrection. The ressurection he spoke of in verse 20 is definately after the tribulation, before the 100 year reign, and definately people who have accepted Jesus as their Savior. It is also referred to as the FIRST resurrection.

GE
12 posted on 02/24/2006 10:41:18 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: blue-duncan; GrandEagle
The chief text to refute the rapture doctrine is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

First: The Quiet Coming. Rapturists teach that they will be quietly, mysteriously taken away. Presto, they will become invisible! Actually, the second coming will be quite a noisy affair. Paul says the Lord will "descend... with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God." Peter says "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" (2 Peter 3:10/. "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." There is no room for a hushed up rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4.

Second: The Two Comings. Those pregnant with visions of rapture expect their deliverance in the first stage of a two-part coming or the first of two comings. Well, whatever. Their idea is that stage number two occurs after the seven years of tribulation when the Lord shall return to set up His kingdom on earth. (Compare that with 1 Cor. 15:24-28/. But the context of 1 Thessalonians 4 is a stubborn thing. Men divided the Bible into chapters and verses, so we often separate areas that are kin to one another. Continue reading into 1 Thessalonians 5. But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you as a thief.
Obviously, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4 is at least contextually related. Compare the comforting conclusions of 1 Thessalonians 4:18, "Wherefore, comfort one another with these words," and 1 Thessalonians 5:11, "Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do." So, when the Lord combs and the righteous are "caught up," at the same time the wicked will be overtaken and destroyed. This is also the teaching of 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10:
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe because our testimony among you was believed in that day.
God is going to repay tribulation to the troublers. He is going to repay rest (a noun, not a verb) to the troubled. But when?
(1) "When the Lord shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them (the sinners)" and (2) "when he shall be glorified in his saints. . . in that day." (3) "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col. 3:4). But what about the wicked? They are not in Colossians 3:4. Yes, but they are in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10.
(4) Both the righteous and the wicked are in Matthew 16:27. "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." So, when the Lord comes with the angels, then (not later) He shall reward every man knot part, not some/, but "then," "every man." There is no sequential, sectional coming; hence, no rapture. Truly, "there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust" (Acts 24:15).

Are you amazed, all ye that await your rapture? Well, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, into the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." >Observe that the "shout" of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is the "voice" of John 5:28. Do you see the implications of that conclusion?

Now, place all these cited and related passages together. If you come up with (1) a separate coming of the Lord for the saints only, (2) seven years of. tribulation on earth; (3) another coming of the Lord and the beginning of a 1,000 year reign on earth, then you are reading ideas for -which there are no words of the Lord.
Third: The Duration. The third rupture imagination is seen in its duration. Rapturists say the saints will soar to meet the Lord in the air for seven heavenly years before being hauled back to earth for 1,000 earthly years. That is not what 1 Thessalonians 4 teaches. It says that after the righteous are raised "so shall we ever be with the Lord." To suit their dream, it should say, "so shall we be for seven years with the Lord." As the righteous shall "ever be with the Lord," so the destruction of the wicked will be unending. The wicked "shall not escape," and they "shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord." The "everlasting destruction" (2 Thess. 1:9) is equivalent to the "ever be" with the Lord (1 Thess. 4:17). The destruction, like the deliverance, is final, total, eternal. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25:41). Fourth: The Visible Coming. The wicked will not see the Lord when He comes to rapture the righteous, or so say the premillennialists. How do we account for this blatant blindness? We are told that the Lord is coming for His saints (the rapture) and then He will come with His saints (the second coming. The first time He will not be seen or manifested, but He will be seen the second time. No such distinction is taught in the New Testament. Both the "alive and the dead" will be judged "at his appearing" (2 Tim. 4:1). Both the wicked and the righteous will see Jesus when He comes. "When he shall appear, " the righteous will see Him (Col. 3:4; 1 Pet. 5:4; 1 Jn. 2:28; 3:2). "When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven," the wicked will see Him, or else the word "revealed" means concealed.
13 posted on 02/24/2006 10:44:25 AM PST by bremenboy (if any man speak let him speak as the oracles of God)
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To: conserv371
I feels
I do understand, it felt that way to me too. But the question is what does Gods word actually SAY.
In Matt 24, this is the exact question his disciples asked. And his answer was After the Tribulation
GE
14 posted on 02/24/2006 10:44:58 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: blue-duncan
>>> before the 1000 year reign <<<

Note to self....PROOF READ!
15 posted on 02/24/2006 10:52:10 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: bremenboy
WHAM! Hit the all at one time! LOL!
I was trying to walk them through how I found, through study, that I was wrong about this "rapture" belief.
It is a very tough thing to release what you have been taught and simply trust what Gods word actually says.

I am considered a virtual heretic because I finally discovered (while studying for a class I was teaching ON that Rapture oddly enough), that the rapture simply is not supported by scripture.

It is supported by speculation, wishful thinking, etc. but not scripture.

Cordially,
GE
16 posted on 02/24/2006 10:58:29 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: bremenboy; GrandEagle

Go back to my first question in the book was written revealing the second coming.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Where is it written that the church (believers) will wail and mourn at His second coming?


17 posted on 02/24/2006 12:02:44 PM PST by blue-duncan
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Ping to read later


18 posted on 02/24/2006 12:03:48 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Colossians 4:5)
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To: blue-duncan
Nowhere that I am aware of. However,

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You will notice in verse 30 that all the tribes of earth morn when they see the Son of Man coming and THEN he gathers his elect

That still does not authorize us to insert a time frame that is never mentioned.

2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Pet 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Let me also ask of you then, where does it ever give a time of before the triblation?

Cordially,
GE
19 posted on 02/24/2006 12:12:38 PM PST by GrandEagle
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To: conserv371

All of the above passages could deal with the "Bowls of wrath" period rather than the entire tribulation. The scriptures speak of the quickness of Christ's return, not that it could occur any time. We won't know the hour, but we will know the season.


20 posted on 02/24/2006 1:00:07 PM PST by aimhigh
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To: GrandEagle
My understanding is that the tribulation period starts with the opening of the seals in Rev. 6 and the great tribulation period with the opening of the seventh seal in Rev. 8. This corresponds with Daniel's seventieth week Dan. 9:27. The seals, trumpets and vials are all judgments of God and from Rev. 9 on to Rev. 16 at least five times in the face of God's wrath the unbelievers refuse to repent and God finally says "that's enough".

The Millennial reign is the other side of God's wrath. For an extended period the unbelieving nations will experience God's peaceful reign under the governorship of believers with the presence of Jesus and in the end will still choose to follow Satan. At the Great White Throne judgment they will be without excuse and no one will say "if only I had a chance".

Again, reasonable minds can differ on this for we only see these things dimly. Just be prepared. Like Blake in "Jerusalem" (my paraphrase)

"Give me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear! O clouds unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!
I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,"
(till Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven)
21 posted on 02/24/2006 1:28:22 PM PST by blue-duncan
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To: GrandEagle
This is the first resurrection.

But then we know that this is not really the first ressurection...What about when Jesus went to Hell and unlocked the gates that were holding the Old Testament Saints...The place that was called Paradise...

The first ressurection has many parts to it...

The harvest of the Saints has three parts...The 'Firstfruits', the "Harvest", and the 'Gleanings'...Makes for a good bible study...

22 posted on 02/24/2006 4:12:13 PM PST by Iscool (Start your own revolution by voting for the candidates the media (and gov't) tells you cannot win.)
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To: GrandEagle
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice: we will meet him in the air...This is totally different than when 'all' eyes shall see him when he (and we) show up again at the end of the tribulation...

People will be saved during the tribulation...That ressurection will be the gleanings of the crop...All are 'parts' of the first ressurection, the ressurection of the church...

23 posted on 02/24/2006 4:18:14 PM PST by Iscool (Start your own revolution by voting for the candidates the media (and gov't) tells you cannot win.)
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To: bremenboy
Rapturists say the saints will soar to meet the Lord in the air for seven heavenly years before being hauled back to earth for 1,000 earthly years. That is not what 1 Thessalonians 4 teaches. It says that after the righteous are raised "so shall we ever be with the Lord." To suit their dream, it should say, "so shall we be for seven years with the Lord."

Really??? And where's the Lord going to be for that 1000 years??? He will be on earth to rule as the King of Kings with His Saints (us) at His side...

24 posted on 02/24/2006 4:30:21 PM PST by Iscool (Start your own revolution by voting for the candidates the media (and gov't) tells you cannot win.)
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To: conserv371

No matter what the arguments are, my ready answer is: God will do what God wants to do, how he wants to do it, in his time and in his way. And no matter how many hours we argue over it, nothing can change that fact.

I just want to be ready.


25 posted on 02/24/2006 4:40:51 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

Amen, FRiend!


26 posted on 02/24/2006 5:15:53 PM PST by labette (In the beginning God created....)
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To: conserv371; GrandEagle; blue-duncan; bremenboy; aimhigh; Iscool
After over 25 years, I still find these discussions fascinating.

To conserv371, blue-duncan, others;
Thank you for starting this thread. Considering my much limited understanding, I think we are in agreement. At least I am able to fit a few more pieces of the "puzzle" together using your/my interpretation of Scripture.

To GrandEagle, bremenboy, others;
Don't even joke about being a heretic, because you are obviously not. Let us also agree that which of us is wrong, it is we and our lack of total knowledge of God's Word that is wrong and that God's Word is right.

We may be "opposites". I was raised in a church that never mentioned a "rapture" or a "millennium". I literally stumbled into this way many years ago and am still excited over it. Allow me to add a couple of verses to ponder upon:

1 Thessalonians ch5 vs 9-11: "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Who died for us, that,whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

Luke ch21 vs28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Are we told to stockpile food? To build bomb shelters?
Nope. We're told to "look up", and to "fear not". Interesting. I wonder what Paul means by a mystery when he writes in 1 Corinthians ch15 vs 51 where it is written, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."
What is this "mystery"? Is something revealed here we did not know before?

Either way FRiend, avoid the temptation to view the "rapture crowd" as slightly less informed. What if we are right? {You'll be in for a pleasant surprise!} What if we are wrong? What if someday we look out our window and find ourselves in the middle of the tribulation?
Well then I suggest we are going to need people like you praying earnestly for us, since undoubtedly many will have their faith shaken.

I've ranted long enough. Let me say that I appreciate all the opinions.

27 posted on 02/24/2006 6:42:18 PM PST by labette (In the beginning God created....)
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To: labette
our lack of total knowledge of God's Word that is wrong and that God's Word is right.
On this point we are in complete agreement!
28 posted on 02/24/2006 7:59:29 PM PST by GrandEagle
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To: GrandEagle; conserv371
Hello GrandEagle

I said today I was taking a break and just read, but then I decided to type this up for you

After the Apostle Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 about the catching up of the Saints, both living and dead, he immediately tells us in 1 Thessalonians chapter 5, verses 1-2, that this catching up of the Saints is what Jesus taught about, that He would come as a thief in the night.

"But the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night"

Verse 4, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

Paul then refers to the Great Tribulation

Verse 8 "But let us who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation."

Verse 9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

The Apostle Paul clearly teaches us in this chapter, that those who are left behind are appointed unto God's wrath, but not those who are of the day. This agrees with Jesus' teachings in Matthew chapters 24 and 25

God Bless

29 posted on 02/24/2006 8:06:13 PM PST by Clay+Iron_Times (The feet of the statue and the latter days of the church age)
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To: Clay+Iron_Times
"But the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night"

Verse 4, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

These passages imply we won't be surprised by that day. They don't say we won't experience that day.

Paul then refers to the Great Tribulation
Verse 8 "But let us who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation."
Verse 9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

The wrath doesn't begin until the 1st Bowl of wrath.

The Apostle Paul clearly teaches us in this chapter, that those who are left behind are appointed unto God's wrath, but not those who are of the day. This agrees with Jesus' teachings in Matthew chapters 24 and 25.

Agreed, but that wrath (God's wrath) begins at the 1st bowl, not before.

30 posted on 02/24/2006 8:18:03 PM PST by aimhigh
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To: GrandEagle

Question

Is the rapture before or after the seven-year tribulation?

Answer

It's become kind of popular today, in the last two or three years, to believe in the rapture occurring at the end of the tribulation. There has been three positions, historically, "pre-trib," "mid-trib," and "post-trib." What that means is the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation: "post-tribulation;" the middle of the tribulation: "mid-tribulation;" the beginning of the tribulation: "pre-tribulation." Now if you wanted to catalog me I would have to claim to be a "pre-tribulationist"--I believe the Church will be taken out before the tribulation.

Now if you would like a full-length answer on that we have a series of tapes on that very subject, so I am not going into that other than to just give you two reasons, that I believe, are the most difficult arguments for a "post-tribulationalist" to deal with. If a person comes along, and this is popular today, there are a lot of people who want to go through the tribulation. We have got some sort of a martyr-complex. You know in a mechanized society, and a very high-powered society, and a very easy kind of existence, a lot of people kind of think that it is neat to go through the tribulation. They see the movie about "A Thief in the Night" and they can see themselves running from the beast and all this intrigue. Now I am saying this truly, because this is happening in the minds of--not the educational people, not the theology people, so much as it is a popular kind of a thing. I think Hal Lindsey's books, which took a firm pre-tribulational stand, forced some theologians out of the woodwork to write on a post-tribulational position. So you have the theological battle, and it is going on, on those two positions, but you have this new popular thing, and sometimes I will listen to those Christian television programs and they are talking about, "Well, you know I am not convinced that we are going to be taken out. I think we may go through....oh......." And it is all very dramatic.

Listen folks. I don't want to be there--it doesn't sound good to me at all. If I had my choice of being here with the beast or being in heaven with Jesus--it isn't even a question! Aside from that emotional argument which doesn't hold water--that's just me.

There are two primary things that you have to deal with if you are going to take a post-tribulation position:

1. The sheep and goat judgment. In Matthew, chapter 25, at the end of the tribulation period--Matthew 25, you have a judgment occurring. We know that it is at the end of the tribulation because it discusses the tribulation period in chapter 24. We know that the "abomination of desolation" occurs in the tribulation (24:15 and all these things and so forth), and then verse 31 of Chapter 25, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." Now what's that? That's not the rapture is it? That has got to be the Second Coming to set up the Kingdom--"when he comes in His glory to sit on His throne."

Now the post-tribulation position says this--watch--that at the end of the seven years there is a quick rapture and a quick return--you go through the tribulation and then "up and back." There is a big problem with that and it is this: if all the regenerate people go up and come back, then how come when Christ comes back the first thing He does is separate the sheep from the goats--who are the sheep? See? who are the sheep? They can't be Christians because there aren't any left--they all got raptured. But if you move the rapture to the beginning of the seven years, then you have a seven year period in which people will be saved that will constitute the sheep at the end of the tribulation--understand?

So if you jam it all at the end--I see that as the major problem of the post-tribulational view--where do you get the sheep for the sheep and goat judgment, because if Christ takes all of us up and comes right back, then there aren't any sheep left--it's not going to be a problem to say, "You sheep come over and go into my kingdom, and you goats here..."--there aren't any sheep left, they have already been raptured and glorified and all set. That's the first problem.

2. 2 Thessalonians 2:1. The second problem, and I think that they have to face if they take a post-tribulation view is 2 Thessalonians 2:1--these are primary arguments--there are many others, but these are just ones that I'll give you quickly. 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and I think maybe that these are the two best arguments against a post-tribulation position. Some of you don't even know what I'm talking about--you just relax and do whatever you want and we will be back in a minute.

2 Thessalonians 2:1, "Now we beseech you brethren,” now listen, “By the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.” "Jesus is coming,” says Paul to the Thessalonians, “and we will be gathered together unto him.” Episunagoge, gathering together. Its used one other time in the New Testament, that’s Hebrews 10:25. And in Hebrews 10:25 it says “forsake not the sunagogoge, the assembling of yourselves together.” It is a word reserved in the New Testament for gathering together of believers. So, the Thessalonians Christians were saying, "Oh, are we already in the time of trouble, is it already too late. And he says Now wait a minute, we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus and our, our specific gathering together to him, don’t be shaking let no man deceive you." And then he says, "I believe that after will come the day of the Lord. And then the falling away and the man of sin is revealed and all of that." But I see is the primary event the gathering together, a special gathering together, a special coming together of the church, a unique one separate from anything else. And I think Thessalonians 2:1 has a great amount of weight towards that end.

So, my belief is that the church does not go through the tribulation. And again I I would say that that’s just putting it together the best way I can, it’s a very difficult problem. There are many other reasons that I have tried to share with you and I stand on that ground and we’ll find out sooner or later. And I feel like Dr. Saucy who said, “I know there are some errors in my Theology, I just wish I knew where they were.” And there will be some somewhere and we’ll see whether that works out.


31 posted on 02/24/2006 8:52:24 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: GrandEagle; blue-duncan
Let me also ask of you then, where does it ever give a time of before the triblation?

Your using Matthew 24 to contradict the rapture, you will be successful.

Matt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It appears that here, the evil ones are taken away and the good are left behind. Contrast this to Revelation 14

Rev 14:15-20 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Here the good are taken away and the evil are left behind. If we do not distinguish these two events it is easy to understand why there is so much confusion. In Matthew 24, the evil ones are taken to judgment. In Revelation 14 the evil ones are left behind for judgment. Try to place these two events on a timeline as you see fit.

The idea of a pre-tribulation rapture came about to try to fit many pieces of scripture together. Just like any creed or doctrine, it fails when people cannot remember how it came about.

Joseph was a type of Christ. He came to rule Egypt, second only to Pharaoh in power. That Christ will reveal himself to Israel was prefigured in Joseph revealing himself to his brothers. Do you think it is significant that he sent all of the gentiles out of the room first?

Seven

32 posted on 02/25/2006 1:04:16 AM PST by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: conserv371
The harvest rate is accelerating.
Jesus at Rev. 22:20 says,
"Surely I come quickly."



"Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

33 posted on 02/25/2006 1:37:26 AM PST by .30Carbine (amen)
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To: blue-duncan

"Give me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear! O clouds unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!
I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,"
(till Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven)



That is lovely. I've never seen it before. Thank you so much for sharing it here.


34 posted on 02/25/2006 1:39:04 AM PST by .30Carbine (amen)
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To: Clay+Iron_Times
Thank you. Amen.

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance,
I also will keep you from the hour of testing,
that hour which is about to come upon the whole world,
to test those who dwell on the earth."
The Word of The Master, Jesus, Revelation 3:10

35 posted on 02/25/2006 1:42:50 AM PST by .30Carbine (amen)
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To: GrandEagle

Congrats to you for seeing the fallacy of the rapture theory.
As you are probably aware, the theory was propounded by a delusional sick woman who after getting better said it felt like an evil dream to her. Iirc, this was approx the year 1840, her name was Margeret MacDonald, iirc. Prior to this there was no such teaching as the rapture. There will be many who will fall for the "first jesus to come". Problem is that he is the wrong one. In closing, God never lets his children shirk from a fight, he expects his children to fight evil, not fly away from it.


36 posted on 02/25/2006 3:41:19 AM PST by son of caesar
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To: conserv371

hehe- I'm not even a pre-millenialist, much less pre-trib!

I prefer the view that we are here to occupy this territory until He comes. Dominion and authority, not failure and escapism.

I know I know. Flame away! :)


37 posted on 02/25/2006 3:47:47 AM PST by ovrtaxt (Join the FR folding team!! http://vspx27.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=teampage&teamnum=36120)
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To: son of caesar
Margeret MacDonald,
Yes, and if I'm not mistaken it was really made popular by Matthew Henry who though highly of Margret MacDonald.
I can really sympathize with those who defend this teaching because I was one for many, many years. Interesting to note though, I always had to have someone Elses commentary, book, etc around to help me with the scriptures, instead of using God word to interpret Gods word. It has gone so deep now that many I've talked to have their HOPE in the rapture, NOT the second coming!

I believe that this teaching is what the anti-christ will use to cause Christians to follow him. To those who believe in the rapture, the next major thing they are expecting to happen is that they will see Jesus. But, Gods word says that before Jesus will come back the anti-christ will be revealed.

2 Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In other words, they are looking for Jesus and are convinced that the anti-christ is Jesus because, according to the rapture theory, Jesus will be the next one they see.

I completely understand the difficulty in rejecting what we have been taught and simply letting Gods word speak for itself.
As I said, I was teaching a study on the rapture when 2+2 ended up being 3, or 9, or anything but 4. I had to put off the study and it took me nearly a year of study before I could turn loose of my belief in the rapture.

Cordially,
GE

I might add that there are many, many good, solid Christians who have fallen for the rapture.
38 posted on 02/25/2006 6:54:30 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: LiteKeeper
Hello again!
I do understand how we can arrange things around in scripture like we see that they should be. Without meaning to, you have partially made my point I think. Almost any study supporting a pretrib, secret, grab and run, rapture will need a supporting series of tapes, books, etc.
When you look in Gods word alone, you will never find any specific time reference to his return except after the tribulation.
There are man made assumptions like one gentleman I respect very highly told me that the tribulation was specifically set aside as the time of Jacobs trouble. And since we weren't Jewish, it doesn't pertain to us. Well, it will be the time of Jacobs trouble, but it is an ASSUMPTION that we won't be here. These are the times of the Gentiles, but there are plenty of Jews still around.

It is good to see you around again! - I guess I've been off on other threads too long.
GE
39 posted on 02/25/2006 7:23:25 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: conserv371
>whether the church will go through the tribulation

Matthew 25

"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

------------------------------------------------------------------


No one knows for sure
the theological truths
in this parable.

But one thing is clear:
The bridegroom returns at night
and shelters his brides

before the events
of the next day get started.
I think that's a clue.
40 posted on 02/25/2006 7:33:06 AM PST by theFIRMbss
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To: Seven_0
HI again!

I think I understand Matt 24:39 a little differently.

It seems to me that the subject of discussion - and the reason for the comparison between the two time in history - is the suddenness and unexpectedness (not sure that is a word) of our Saviors appearance. Note:

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

It is good to chat with you again - I guess I've been away on creation/evo threads too long!

GE
41 posted on 02/25/2006 7:34:45 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: Clay+Iron_Times
Hello Clay+Iron_Times

Again, I would repeat, any and all specific time references given in Gods word are after the tribulation. We (an I include myself because I once taught this) shuffle things around and assume things have to be this way and that way, but in the end, we have no authority it insert the way we think things ought to be into Gods word.
Use Gods word to interpret Gods word; not someones commentary.

Cordially,
GE
42 posted on 02/25/2006 7:39:24 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: blue-duncan
Again, reasonable minds can differ on this for we only see these things dimly. Just be prepared.
On this there can be no doubt my brother (or sister) in Christ!

Have a great day!
GE
43 posted on 02/25/2006 7:41:34 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: LiteKeeper; GrandEagle
1. The sheep and goat judgment. In Matthew, chapter 25, at the end of the tribulation period--Matthew 25, you have a judgment occurring. We know that it is at the end of the tribulation because it discusses the tribulation period in chapter 24. We know that the "abomination of desolation" occurs in the tribulation (24:15 and all these things and so forth), and then verse 31 of Chapter 25, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." Now what's that? That's not the rapture is it? That has got to be the Second Coming to set up the Kingdom--"when he comes in His glory to sit on His throne."

The "rapture" IS the second coming of Christ. This occurs, as you said, in chapter 24. The sheep and goat separation in chapter 25 is:

Mat 25:31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

It corresponds to:

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

This is the sheep and goat separation AFTER the thousand years have passed:

Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Here's the timeline. Christ returns. At his return, those who are Christians either alive, or dead, are resurrected to spirit bodies. This is the first resurrection. They live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. After the thousand years, all nations, the rest of dead, are judged by Christ, who sits on the great white throne.

You're making an assumption in Matthew 25 that no time passes between Christ's return and the judgement of the nations, non-Christians. This is shown in Revelation to not be the case.

44 posted on 02/25/2006 7:51:53 AM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Here's the timeline. Christ returns. At his return, those who are Christians either alive, or dead, are resurrected to spirit bodies. This is the first resurrection. They live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. After the thousand years, all nations, the rest of dead, are judged by Christ, who sits on the great white throne.
Exactly. Thanks, I never plainly stated that.
45 posted on 02/25/2006 8:03:34 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: GrandEagle; Seven_0

HI again! I think I understand Matt 24:39 a little differently.

It seems to me that the subject of discussion -
and the reason for the comparison between the two time in history
- is the suddenness and unexpectedness (not sure that is a word) of our Saviors appearance. Note:

Mat 24:3 6 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

................. GE 41 posted on 02/25/2006 8:34:45 AM MST by GrandEagle

Interesting that the only day that we know not the day or hour is G-d's Feast of Trumpets.
It is the first day of Tishrei( this year it begins at sundown on the September 22, 2006)

b"shem Y'shua
46 posted on 02/25/2006 8:07:15 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Trust in YHvH forever, for the LORD, YHvH is the Rock eternal. (Isaiah 26:4))
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To: conserv371

The Biblical pattern does not support a pre-tribulation rapture. God does not rescue His people from adversity, He makes a way for them to go through it. This doctrine is a heresy that infilitrated the certain sects of Christianity in the 1800s. It is nothing more than wishful thinkng and escapism.


47 posted on 02/25/2006 8:11:33 AM PST by ShandaLear (Announcing you plans is a good way to hear God laugh. Al Swearengen, 1877—Deadwood)
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To: labette
Don't even joke about being a heretic, because you are obviously not.
Man, you should have seen the uproar when I discovered that I had been wrong!
First, let me say that I would never teach things directly contradicting my Pastor. I feel that God placed him there in our Church and he is responsible for what is being taught. I would be creating divisions in the Church and God really dislikes that.
When I first began to question, I postponed my class's study and switched to something else while I did my private study. (I teach the Adult SS class as well as being SS Superintendent.)
My Pastor, sensing something, called and asked me what was up so I discussed it with him. He in turn called two of my fellow church members and the five of us were going to have a study so I could understand the rapture. Well, it didn't quite work out that way so one of the guys was actually going to bring charges of heresy before the church and see if they would withdraw fellowship from me.
I brought out our doctrinal statement which states clearly that we believe in a PRE MELINNEAL return of Jesus Christ. We discussed it and he finally agreed that my position met the Pre Melinneal position.
Well over the next year or so my Pastor and I studied this out and he too soon saw what I saw.

It was a close call, and you are right it is no joking matter, but some are willing to take it that far.

Cordially,
48 posted on 02/25/2006 8:21:04 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: XeniaSt
Interesting that the only day that we know not the day or hour...
It is MOST interesting!
Especially when it appears that the sound of a trumpet will announce his arrival!

GE
49 posted on 02/25/2006 8:38:26 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: GrandEagle
It seems to me that the subject of discussion - and the reason for the comparison between the two time in history - is the suddenness and unexpectedness (not sure that is a word) of our Saviors appearance. Note:

What would the thief in the night do if every eye sees him? He is only successful if no one sees him. Scripture does not come right out and say that there are two events, just as the Old Testament does not come out and say that Christ would come twice.

For me, pre-trib answers this question, but it does not leave me with no questions. By now you have probably noticed that each of the various passages of scripture used, has at least two interpretations, one for each side of the debate. I believe that God intentionally gave the scripture as written so we would need to continually search the scriptures for tiebreakers. I also believe that Israel is one of these tiebreakers, and the data are still coming in. If we look closely, we can see the hand of God in the world today.

The idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is closely tied to the restoration of Israel. Their blindness, (they can't see Christ) continues even as the storm clouds gather. Though Israel has rejected Christ, he has not rejected them. Perhaps this is God's way of showing us who he is, for if God rejected Israel, what is to stop him from rejecting me.

Seven

50 posted on 02/25/2006 8:48:56 AM PST by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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