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Pre-Trib Rapture Arguments
2/24/06 | conserv 371

Posted on 02/24/2006 8:40:59 AM PST by conserv371

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To: GrandEagle
interesting that the only day that we know not the day or hour...

It is MOST interesting!

Especially when it appears that the sound of a trumpet will announce his arrival!

More than one sounding of the trumpet ending with the final trump.

b'shem Y'shua

51 posted on 02/25/2006 9:14:50 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Trust in YHvH forever, for the LORD, YHvH is the Rock eternal. (Isaiah 26:4))
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To: ShandaLear

" God does not rescue His people from adversity, He makes a way for them to go through it."

Then is it your opinion that the church will experience the wrath/judgments of God in the seventh seal, the seven trumpets and seven vials? I do not see where the church is mentioned in Rev. 9-16 or anyone being exempt from God's judment there. In fact it says those experiencing the judgments refuse to repent. Where is the church?
How do you interpret the rider on the white horse opening the first seal and what is His purpose?

To call those who follow a pre-trib system heretics implies that there is one true eschatological system that has been accepted by the church and I doubt that you can find any one system agreed on by all on this forum. You have labelled Harry Ironsides, Donald G. Barnhouse, Dwight Pentecost, John Walvoord and many other giants in the faith as heretics.


52 posted on 02/25/2006 9:26:18 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan
To call those who follow a pre-trib system heretics
Hopefully in my posts I have not implied this.

I differ in view with my Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

GE
53 posted on 02/25/2006 9:35:39 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: blue-duncan
Biblically, it seems to me, God has never spared those whom He sets to do His will and trusts with His work from discomfort. Death? It is the end of discomfort for those of the Lord. Discomfort, including pain, is a thing of the living material body, and He uses that body to temper the soul and spirit.

The church, the bride of Christ has yet to be tempered, and who'll say that those who wish to be jerked out of the fray to avoid discomfort have the mettle to be servants of Him?

I intend to remain and wield His sword as He wills and endure hardship as He wills. In my opinion, any rapture is the removing of the deadwood so that the Lord can reign among the faithful. I personally work to not be among the former.

We all differ according to our wants. In the end there will be only one truth and it will be unavoidable.

Just my heart on the matter.

54 posted on 02/25/2006 10:31:26 AM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: William Terrell
"The church, the bride of Christ has yet to be tempered,"

Not to belabor the point, I'm sure that the church in Nigeria, Sudan, Pakistan, India, Indonesia or China might see this a little differently as will the churches of Communist countries past. But you use the phrase "bride of Christ" to describe the church. In Ephesians husbands are told to love their wives even as Christ loved the church (His Bride). Now if you are right that Christ is going to take His bride through His wrath/judgments, not just the trials and tribulations spoken of in the Epistles and James, what kind of example is that for the husband and wife relationship? Is that really a demonstration of love to expose the "weaker" spouse to the husband's wrath?
55 posted on 02/25/2006 11:08:40 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan
I'm sure some churches somewhere have experienced pain. But one temper doesn't trickle down to all others. It seems to me we are referring to a world event, here. I don't think we can judge God's love in human terms, or the love of Christ. Physical pain and death have meaning only in the material body.

56 posted on 02/25/2006 11:19:41 AM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: William Terrell

"I don't think we can judge God's love in human terms, or the love of Christ"

But he tells husbands to love their wives as Christ loved His church. We already have the example of God's love. The question is does that love expose the bride to the husband's wrath? My understanding is God's wrath is reserved for the unbeliever, not His bride, which would explain why there is no mention of the church during the wrath/judgments in Revelation.


57 posted on 02/25/2006 11:29:49 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: conserv371
..the resource which settled it for me some 30 years ago was "Things To Come" by J. Dwight Pentecost.

He did a fair comparison between the main rapture and millennial positions.

The pre-trib rapture and dispensational pre-millennial position is one I feel very confident in...

58 posted on 02/25/2006 11:30:08 AM PST by WalterSkinner ( ..when there is any conflict between God and Caesar -- guess who loses?)
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To: blue-duncan
My understanding is God's wrath is reserved for the unbeliever, not His bride, which would explain why there is no mention of the church during the wrath/judgments in Revelation.

I really hate to do a "hit and run" here, but I am at work so I can't fully participate here.
first, Jesus himself said:
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
I would submit to you that his wrath is not poured out on his church, but his Church is in the world where his wrath is being poured out.

Second, It is VERY dangerous to build a belief on what is NOT mentioned in Gods word.

Very cordially,
GE
59 posted on 02/25/2006 12:02:58 PM PST by GrandEagle
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To: XeniaSt
Haftarah for Shabbat Erev Rosh Chodesh: (Torah section for the Shabbat)

Erev Rosh Chodesh, or when the New Moon falls on Sunday

I Shmuel (Samuel) 20:18-42 Then Jonathan said to David: "Tomorrow is the New Moon festival. You will be missed, because your seat will be empty. The day after tomorrow, toward evening, go to the place where you hid when this trouble began, and wait by the stone Ezel. I will shoot three arrows to the side of it, as though I were shooting at a target. Then I will send a boy and say, 'Go, find the arrows.' If I say to him, 'Look, the arrows are on this side of you; bring them here,' then come, because, as surely as HaShem lives, you are safe; there is no danger. But if I say to the boy, 'Look, the arrows are beyond you,' then you must go, because HaShem has sent you away. And about the matter you and I discussed--remember, HaShem is witness between you and me forever." So David hid in the field, and when the New Moon festival came, the king sat down to eat. He sat in his customary place by the wall, opposite Jonathan, and Abner sat next to Saul, but David's place was empty. Saul said nothing that day, for he thought, "Something must have happened to David to make him ceremonially unclean--surely he is unclean." But the next day, the second day of the month, David's place was empty again.

Then Saul said to his son Jonathan, "Why hasn't the son of Jesse come to the meal, either yesterday or today?" Jonathan answered, "David earnestly asked me for permission to go to Bethlehem. He said, 'Let me go, because our family is observing a sacrifice in the town and my brother has ordered me to be there. If I have found favor in your eyes, let me get away to see my brothers.' That is why he has not come to the king's table." Saul's anger flared up at Jonathan and he said to him, "You son of a perverse and rebellious woman! Don't I know that you have sided with the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of the mother who bore you? As long as the son of Jesse lives on this earth, neither you nor your kingdom will be established. Now send and bring him to me, for he must die!" "Why should he be put to death? What has he done?" Jonathan asked his father. But Saul hurled his spear at him to kill him. Then Jonathan knew that his father intended to kill David. Jonathan got up from the table in fierce anger; on that second day of the month he did not eat, because he was grieved at his father's shameful treatment of David.

In the morning Jonathan went out to the field for his meeting with David. He had a small boy with him, And he said to the boy, "Run and find the arrows I shoot." As the boy ran, he shot an arrow beyond him. When the boy came to the place where Jonathan's arrow had fallen, Jonathan called out after him, "Isn't the arrow beyond you?" Then he shouted, "Hurry! Go quickly! Don't stop!" The boy picked up the arrow and returned to his master. (The boy knew nothing of all this; only Jonathan and David knew.) Then Jonathan gave his weapons to the boy and said, "Go, carry them back to town." After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side [of the stone] and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with his face to the ground. Then they kissed each other and wept together--but David wept the most. Jonathan said to David, "Go in peace, for we have sworn friendship with each other in the name of HaShem, saying, 'HaShem is witness between you and me, and between your descendants and my descendants forever.'" Then David left, and Jonathan went back to the town.

Then Jonathan said to David: "Tomorrow is the New Moon festival. You will be missed, because your seat will be empty.

Ezel, depart.

From: Rosh Chodesh/New Moon

http://members.aol.com/gkilli/home/index.html Home

Certain Months begin with a ‘two day’ Rosh Chodesh

Rosh Chodesh

In Hebrew, Rosh Chodesh means, literally, "head of the month" or "first of the month." Rosh Chodesh is the first day of any new month. If a month is 30 days long, then the 30th day is treated as part of the Rosh Chodesh for the next month, and the Rosh Chodesh for next month extends for two days (the 30th of the earlier month and the 1st of the later month).

http://www.jewfaq.org/chodesh.htm

So the phrase, no man knows the day or hour, fits perfectly into a two day Rosh Chodesh! And after all, it’s always one of two days anywhere in the world (in Australia it’s tomorrow).

60 posted on 02/25/2006 12:23:40 PM PST by Jeremiah Jr (“I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine, who grazes among the roses." Shir Hashirim 6:3)
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To: Jeremiah Jr
How does one know the day or hour?

Only when one see three stars in the sky.

What if there were a solar eclipse ?

Would you see the three stars before the beginning of the new month?

b'shem Y'shua

61 posted on 02/25/2006 12:44:08 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Trust in YHvH forever, for the LORD, YHvH is the Rock eternal. (Isaiah 26:4))
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To: labette; GrandEagle; blue-duncan; bremenboy; aimhigh; Iscool

"After over 25 years, I still find these discussions fascinating." ~ labette

This is what I find "fascinating":

Cerinthus embraced chiliasm, a form of apocalyptic vision that depicted the millennium as a physical and material period.

In North Africa there arose the Donatists, led by Tyconius, who predicted that the world would end in 380 C.E. Augustine, then Bishop of Hippo, took aim at the sect in an effort to disprove what he termed "out-dated and inappropriate dreams of an earthly paradise." After his death in 430 C.E., a council of church leaders meeting at Ephesus condemned the literalist vision of a physical, worldly millennialist utopia.

Eusebius is one of the early church fathers who most clearly denounces "chiliasm," as premillennialism was then called. In the same work he writes, "About the same time … appeared Cerinthus, the leader of another Heresy. Caius, in The Disputation attributed to him, writes respection him: ‘But Cerinthus, by means of revelations which he pretended as if they were showed him by angels, asserting, that after the resurrection there would be an earthly kingdom of Christ, and that flesh, i.e. men, again inhabiting Jerusalem, would be subject to desires and pleasures. Being also an enemy to the divine scriptures, with a view to deceive men, he said that there would be a space of a thousand years for celebrating nuptial festivals.’" Eusebius also writes of a tradition passed down by Polycarp regarding an encounter between the Apostle John and Cerinthus in a public bath, "He [Polycarp] says that John the Apostle once entered a bath to wash; but ascertaining that Cerinthus was within, he leaped out of the place and fled from the door, not enduring to enter under the same roof with him, and exhorting those with him to do the same, saying, ‘Let us flee, lest the bath fall in, as long as Cerinthus, that enemy of the truth is within.’" Tertullianus is another early church father who attributes chiliasm’s birth to Cerinthus. He writes: "They are not to be heard who assure themselves that there is to be an earthly reign of a thousand years, who think with the heretic Cerinthus. For the Kingdom of Christ is now eternal in the saints, although the glory of the saints shall be manifested after the resurrection."

http://members.aol.com/twarren19/athacreed.html

Justin Martyr (A.D.150)
CHAP. XI.--WHAT KINGDOM CHRISTIANS LOOK FOR.
"And when you hear that we look for a kingdom, you suppose, without making any inquiry, that we speak of a human kingdom; whereas we speak of that which is with God, as appears also from the confession of their faith made by those who are charged with being Christians, though they know that death is the punishment awarded to him who so confesses. For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ, that we might not be slain; and we should strive to escape detection, that we might obtain what we expect. But since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men cut us off; since also death is a debt which must at all events be paid." (First Apology of Justin Martyr, ch. 11)

"Chiliasm found no favor with the best of the Apostolic Fathers... " (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, v. 25 - 36 ).


Eusebius (A.D.325)
"This same historian (Papias) also gives other accounts, which he says he adds as received by him from unwritten tradition, likewise certain strange parables of our Lord, and of His doctrine and some other matters rather too fabulous. In these he says there would be a certain millennium after the resurrection, and that there would be a corporeal reign of Christ on this very earth; which things he appears to have imagined, as if they were authorized by the apostolic narrations, not understanding correctly those matters which they propounded mystically in their representations. For he was very limited in his comprehension, as is evident from his discourses; yet he was the cause why most of the ecclesiastical writers, urging the antiquity of man, were carried away by a similar opinion; as, for instance, Irenaeus, or any other that adopted such sentiments. (Book III, Ch. 39)

Epiphanes (315-403)
"There is indeed a millennium mentioned by St.John; but the most, and those pious men, look upon those words as true indeed, but to be taken in a spiritual sense." (Heresies, 77:26.)

The belief in the millennium was condemned as superstitious at the Council of Ephesus in 431.

"This obscure doctrine [Chiliasm] was probabally known to but very few except the fathers of the church, and is very sparingly mentioned by them during the first centuries; and there is reason to believe that it scarcely attained much notoriety, even among the learned Christians, until it was made a matter of controversy by Origen, and then rejected by the greater majority. In fact, we find Origen himself saying that it was confined to those of the simpler sort. " (Waddington's History, pg. 56)

A field guide to Heresies: http://kevin.davnet.org/articles/heresy.html
Ebionism
Ebionites considered Christianity as a sect of Judaism. The believed the Jesus was a mere man of exceptional righteousness and a superior endowment of the Spirit which came upon him at his baptism. Some Ebionites accepted, and some rejected, the supernatural conception of Christ. Ebionites were among the Judaizers who attempted to impose the Law of Moses upon Christians. Ebionites were millenialists--those who believe in a literal 1,000-year reign of Christ on Earth.

The System of Cerinthus
Cerinthus (contemporary of the Apostle John) combined Gnostic views (separating the earthly Jesus who was the son of Joseph and Mary from the heavenly Christ) with the views of the Judaizers. Cerinthus was also a millinealist (also known as chiliasm).


The Great Premillennial HOAX by Don Matzat
http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/journals/v1.htm


62 posted on 02/25/2006 12:45:19 PM PST by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: blue-duncan

It is my opinion that the church will not be made immune to the hardships to come just as they were not made immune to the hardships that came before. This is not God's way regardless of the heresies taught by Hal Lindsay and his ilk.


63 posted on 02/25/2006 2:26:27 PM PST by ShandaLear (Announcing you plans is a good way to hear God laugh. Al Swearengen, 1877—Deadwood)
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To: Matchett-PI
I followed the link...Now this fella is funny...He tried being a charismatic christian...Apparently that didn't work for him...

So then he gets a bunch of women in his congregation who apparently had never heard a lick of bible prophecy (which is odd since they were HIS congregation and he wants us to believe he is an expert at it) and tells then the night before the rapture that they are leaving...What a whacko...

And now, he claims:

The present-day nation of Israel is no more involved in God's plans for the future than is France, England, Germany, the United States, etc. The teaching of the New Testament is very clear - Jesus fulfilled everything pertaining to Israel and formed the New Israel, His church.

This guy's gotta be on drugs...If not, he should be...

64 posted on 02/25/2006 2:30:40 PM PST by Iscool (Start your own revolution by voting for the candidates the media (and gov't) tells you cannot win.)
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To: blue-duncan
I do not see where the church is mentioned in Rev. 9-16 or anyone being exempt from God's judment there.

Here are a couple references:

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. Rev 12:11

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev 12:17

It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. Rev 13:7

Here is the patience of the saints; here£ are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12

Then I heard a voice from heaven saying £to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” Rev 14:13

To write all of these references off as referring to Jews is wishful interpretation. They had the faith of Jesus. That makes them part of the church.

65 posted on 02/25/2006 2:30:58 PM PST by aimhigh
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To: ShandaLear
It is my opinion that the church will not be made immune to the hardships to come just as they were not made immune to the hardships that came before.

What do you suppose God's opinion is???

This is not God's way regardless of the heresies taught by Hal Lindsay and his ilk.

OK, I'll bite...What's God's way???

66 posted on 02/25/2006 2:34:10 PM PST by Iscool (Start your own revolution by voting for the candidates the media (and gov't) tells you cannot win.)
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To: ShandaLear
>God does not rescue His people from adversity, He makes a way for them to go through it

Oh, please . . . Do you read
the Bible while you're drinking?
God rescued the Jews

when Moses led them
out of Egypt. God rescued
the whole human race

when Noah's family
was warned and saved from the Flood.
God Saved all humans

(well, optioned us all)
when He sent Jesus to us.
God always rescues

His people. God knows
WITHOUT His help we are LOST.
Saving His people

is a Scripture riff
as far back as Genesis!
God didn't allow

Adam and Eve to
eat from the Tree of Life and
become immortal

in their Cursed bodies,
rather, He "Raptured" them out
for their own safety.

That is the pattern
throughout Scripture -- God always
Saves His own people.

67 posted on 02/25/2006 2:37:50 PM PST by theFIRMbss
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To: conserv371
Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt, and now recognize the Darby/Scholfield/LaHaye brand of snake oil as a poison that has done a great deal of harm to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank heaven, as ballyhooed milestones pass one by one, with nothing happening, a lot of saints are finding more God-honoring ways of viewing, and working to change the course of events.

A quick and useful aphorim:


68 posted on 02/25/2006 2:41:20 PM PST by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: blue-duncan
Indeed, God's wrath is reserved for the unbeliever, but God's chastisement is for the believer. A father may whip his son from love, and not whip his son from lack of love. And throw his son out on the street when it is clear that is the only way for him to learn.

But, I don't think the scriptures that guide the relationship between husband and wife are on a point to point footing with the relationship of God with His stewards.

69 posted on 02/25/2006 2:47:02 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: theFIRMbss
>Oh, please . . . Do you read / the Bible while you're drinking?


Sorry about that
"drinking" crack. It was stupid.
Again, I'm sorry.

70 posted on 02/25/2006 2:51:45 PM PST by theFIRMbss
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To: Matchett-PI; labette; GrandEagle; bremenboy; aimhigh; Iscool
It was in the Montanist movement and Papias, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Ireneaus that the literal interpretation of the millennial period was expounded. It was an extension of earlier Jewish Old Testament expectation. It was Origen and his allegorical interpretation of scriptures that started the debate against the literal interpretation of the Millennium. His disciples Pamphilus, Dionysius, Eusebius (the historian)and Augustine kept the debate going, just as it is today.

To cite Eusebius or any of the Eastern Fathers in this debate is equivalent to citing Hodge, Berkof, Lenski or Boettner against Chafer, Feinberg, Ryrie and Unger. Eschatology still remains an exercise in probabilities. Depends on the hermeneutic system you use to interpret.

By the way, Origen was labeled a heretic at the Fifth Ecumenical Council and some of his teachings at a synod in Constantinople in 543. For what it's worth the label "heretic" was loosely thrown around during the post apostolic period.
71 posted on 02/25/2006 3:46:41 PM PST by blue-duncan
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To: theFIRMbss

Maybe you thought of
chandeliers (the drinking game)
when you wrote that post.

Or could it be that
you were drinking some yourself?
Put down the Sake.

:-)


72 posted on 02/25/2006 3:53:29 PM PST by Nihil Obstat
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To: Iscool; blue-duncan
"I followed the link...Now this fella is funny...

Reality always seems funny to the uninformed/credulous.

Get up to speed.

73 posted on 02/25/2006 4:17:38 PM PST by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: Iscool
This guy's gotta be on drugs...If not, he should be...
AMEN!
74 posted on 02/25/2006 4:24:30 PM PST by GrandEagle
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To: Matchett-PI
Reality always seems funny to the uninformed/credulous.

Well, I took your advice and got informed...I followed your link...And here's what I found...

2 Peter 3:10, 12 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up...Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Problem here? No more so than it was in Olivet when we hear of the moon turning to blood and such. This is just the usual Jewish apocalyptic hyperbole, representing the refashioning of the social and political order -- not a literal description of history as it shall happen.

The author of your link doesn't believe the Bible to begin with...If you chose not to believe the book, you can make up anything you want...But hey, if this part isn't literal, how can you say for certain Jesus hung on a cross????

75 posted on 02/25/2006 5:02:58 PM PST by Iscool (Start your own revolution by voting for the candidates the media (and gov't) tells you cannot win.)
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To: conserv371
This completely slipped my mind...You pointed out in the opening thread the "Divine rescue" of Enoch and Noah. But there is yet another example in Genesis. Chapter 19-- the angels saved Lot before the sudden destruction of Sodom.
76 posted on 02/25/2006 8:02:42 PM PST by labette (In the beginning God created....)
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To: GrandEagle
In your posts there are good material for some tangential subject threads. A couple of possibilities might be:

- How narrowly should a church define the beliefs it requires of it's members?

or

- What should the believer do when his private Bible studies seem to conflict with church doctrine?

I agree. These threads are MUCH more civilized than those evolution "street fights". Maybe it's those good southern manners we were raised with?

77 posted on 02/25/2006 8:43:17 PM PST by labette (In the beginning God created....)
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To: newgeezer; conserv371

**Interesting. Do you believe Enoch is a type of the church? If so, is there any other basis for it, other than the fact that he was taken up before the flood?**

At least 669 years passed between Enoch's translation and the great flood. That's a pretty long time, IMO.

This much is clear, as bad as some of the past history has been (black plague, the potato famine, WW1, WW2, etc.) the rapture has yet to happen. I'm sure that some believers living right there, amidst those terrible and fearful times, thought, surely the Lord is coming immediately.

I pray I live and do as he wills (which, of course, includes warning of the wrath that is to come). That is all any of us can do.


78 posted on 02/25/2006 9:20:56 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: GrandEagle

Yes GE, the rapture is indeed the focal point for most Prostestant Christians today and why not? What a great majestic idea that the person as the individual is saved from going thru such a horrific time as the tribulation. Of course its appealing. And yes, most Christians I speak to dont really want to know about the second coming, but they are all waiting to be flown away.

You are well loved by God if you have come to see the truth behind this charade. Remember Jesus quote about scales on eyes? Many wish to slumber and so they shall. God is fair to all his creatures. Best wishes to you and yours.


79 posted on 02/26/2006 1:54:02 AM PST by son of caesar
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To: son of caesar; GrandEagle

Yes GE, the rapture is indeed the focal point for most Prostestant(sic) Christians today and why not? What a great majestic idea that the person as the individual is saved from going thru such a horrific time as the tribulation. Of course its appealing. And yes, most Christians I speak to dont(sic) really want to know about the second coming, but they are all waiting to be flown away.

You are well loved by God if you have come to see the truth behind this charade. Remember Jesus quote about scales on eyes? Many wish to slumber and so they shall. God is fair to all his creatures. Best wishes to you and yours.

79 posted on 02/26/2006 2:54:02 AM MST by son of caesar

Has YHvH been faithful to His wife Israel?
Will he divorce her or simply set her aside and punish her for a time?

Will YHvH force Y'shua faithful Bride through the times of Jacob's trouble?

I'm speaking of not corporations but only those faithful followers
who have a personal intimate relationship with and who do the will of Y'shua.
Only those brides who kept the wicks on their lamps trimmed will be prepared
when the Bridegroom comes unexpectedly in the middle of the night.

YHvH has said that He will restore his set-apart wife, Israel ( Naomi )
to her former place when Ruth ( the gentile bride ) marries Boez ( the Goel ).

This is all set out metaphorically in the book of Ruth.

Praise His Holy Name!

The Name above all other names.

b'shem Y'shua

80 posted on 02/26/2006 8:09:56 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Trust in YHvH forever, for the LORD, YHvH is the Rock eternal. (Isaiah 26:4))
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To: theFIRMbss

He doesn't beem them up when the going gets rough. As I recall He parted the Red Sea and made a way for them to go through. After that, they spent how many years in the wilderness before they reached the promised land? Scripture supports my view, not the escapist views of fundamentlaists.


81 posted on 02/26/2006 10:18:07 AM PST by ShandaLear (Announcing you plans is a good way to hear God laugh. Al Swearengen, 1877—Deadwood)
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To: Iscool
"The author of your link doesn't believe the Bible to begin with..."

On the contrary. Quite the opposite is the case. Look in this mirror and see your reflection:

"...engaging [in] what I will call from here on "trailer park scholarship" .... Who are these people trying to kid? Their scholarship, as a whole, is reckless and pitiable; what they know, they have learned from reading a few popular books with no conception of the broader issues and fields at hand. .. "Why did God make the Bible so hard to understand, then?" It isn't -- none of this keeps a person from grasping the message of the Bible to the extent required to be saved; where the line is to be drawn is upon those who gratuitously assume that such base knowledge allows them to be competent critics [or commentators] of the text, and make that assumption in absolute ignorance of their own lack of knowledge -- what I have elsewhere spoken of in terms of being "Unskilled and Unaware of it: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments" ["It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. .....Incompetent individuals will suffer from deficient metacognitive skills, in that they will be less able than their more competent peers to recognize competence when they see it-be it their own or anyone else's. ...] If they would at least admit that it might be a possibility that they are incompetent, then it is possible for them to educate themselves so as to be able to recognize incompetence in those they look to as "Bible teachers":

For instance, they could go here: Apologetics Index, notice some alphabet letters, and click on the L and that will link them to the Left Behind Series (Note: Due to its faulty theology, these books are not recommended by Apologetics Index).

And they could realize that there were people promoting variations of those same sorts of ideas long before Darby, LaHaye, et.al., came along.-LOL bttt

82 posted on 02/26/2006 10:51:46 PM PST by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: conserv371

There are 7 trumpets (Book of Revelations). Jesus comes back at the LAST trumpet (the 7th trumpet).

Which means all of God's people (not just Jewish converts to Christianity) will be here on earth through trumpets 1-7 (except for those, of course, who die a regular natural death and go on to be with the Lord).


During the pouring out of His wrath, God has a plan for His people to be protected, just as Noah was protected during the flood of judgment on the world.

And also Lot was protected from the wrath and judgment of Sodom, Gomorrha, and the surrounding cities (see the Book of Jude).


In both cases (Noah and Lot), they were still on the earth (did not go flying off) -- but were protected and spared by God.

Jesus specifically used the days of Noah and Lot...."as it was in the days of Noah (Lot), so shall it be in the days of the Son of Man"....(see Matthew chapter 24 and Luke chapter 17).


In both cases, the wicked were the ones TAKEN... "the flood came and took them all away.... the fire came and destroyed them all...."









83 posted on 02/26/2006 11:47:04 PM PST by Cedar
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To: DocRock

Bookmark


84 posted on 02/27/2006 12:05:59 AM PST by DocRock
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To: XeniaSt

The Ruth / Boez parallel is also interesting. I've never heard of this and hope to find study time on this subject also.


85 posted on 02/27/2006 8:12:55 AM PST by labette (In the beginning God created....)
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To: Matchett-PI

Quite an interesting post, and link...I find it fascinating that your church teaches it's members that the average Catholic can not understand the Bible...The average Catholic can not know God thru the Bible...

Superior intelligence and education are required to understand what God has to say to his people...

But the very same Bible that you claim I can't possibly understand says that Jesus provides the understanding...

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures,...

Now you're likely to tell me that in that context, the understaning was only given to apostles, bishops and popes...
But Paul however has something else to say about it...

1Co 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
1Co 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

Looks like grace has something to do with knowledge for the average Christian...

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Now Paul didn't waste 10 seconds trying to prove how smart he was by going to the original Hebrew...

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Paul, as a Christian got his knowledge from the Holy Spirit...

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God...

God reveals to us by his Spirit...Doesn't say anything about a chuch...

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

And we as saved Christians have received THAT Spirit...


1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

But we have the mind of Christ...

And one more verse that you won't find in a Catholic Bible as it's written here...

2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Study, and rightly divide the word of truth...

If you have an 8th grade education, you can know what God has to say as well as anyone whith a PHd...God did not reserve 'any' of the Bible for popes, bishops or apostles...

Study, rightly divide the word of truth, believe what you are reading (don't worry about understanding, God will provide that) and tons of prayer...

Have a nice day...







86 posted on 02/27/2006 8:40:02 AM PST by Iscool (Start your own revolution by voting for the candidates the media (and gov't) tells you cannot win.)
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To: Iscool
"I find it fascinating that your church teaches it's members that the average Catholic can not understand the Bible...The average Catholic can not know God thru the Bible..."

I find it facinating that incompetents who are't able to comprehend what they read still plow on with their inexplicable comments as they continue to make fools out of themselves. LOL

87 posted on 02/27/2006 2:16:04 PM PST by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: Matchett-PI

And I thought you catholics were full of love...Your slip is showing...

And that's a really good retort you have there...I can't comprehend what I read...Ha...

The Bible was written so that any 8th grader could get it...The problem isn't understanding it...The problem is believing it...

I encourage everyone to pick up a bible and study and with a prayerful heart, the doors will be opened...


88 posted on 02/27/2006 4:01:09 PM PST by Iscool (Start your own revolution by voting for the candidates the media (and gov't) tells you cannot win.)
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To: Iscool

I'm not Roman Catholic, so you just proved my point. You don't comprehend what you claim to have read. Anyhow, I'm outta here --- you're a one-armed boat-rower and can only go in circles. Buh bye!


89 posted on 02/27/2006 4:50:24 PM PST by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: GrandEagle

That scripture is not talking about a storm but God's goodness. God in grace treats the believer differently than the unbeliever. Example is a Sri Lankan pastor who rode out the tsunami with all staff and orphans and none of them were killed. He spoke out against the wave. Christians are favored of God, unbelievers are not even though God shows kindness.


90 posted on 03/01/2006 7:45:10 PM PST by conserv371
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

I agree totally. The interesting aspect is Christ says people will not be expecting it hence the view of eating, drinking, marrying, carrying on normal life. If Christians are engaged with running for their lives and escaping death, they would probably focused when they would escape if they hold on.


91 posted on 03/01/2006 8:06:57 PM PST by conserv371
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To: conserv371; Alamo-Girl; airborne; American in Israel; AnimalLover; auggy; backhoe; backslacker; ...
END TIMES PING LIST PING. Please let me know if you want on or off the list. THOSE already ON the list will be kept on the list unless and until I'm notified to delist them by FREEPMAIL.

Rather than start a new thread, it seems more fitting to add to this one. I mostly agree that the priority is to be ready regardless. And, I still don't think anyone has it all figured out. I was reared pre-Trib then moved to a--'God will make it all pan out, regardless' position--which I still largely hold. However, LaHaye and Jenkins are also quite convincing.

Am reading Tim LaHaye & Jerry B Jenkins: ARE WE LIVING IN THE END TIMES?

It is often contended that John Darby was the first to mention the Pre-trib perspective. Clearly, that's not so.

pp112-115:

IS THE PRE-TRIB VIEW A RECENT THEORY?

For several years opponents of the pre=Trib position have argued that it was invented by John Darby in the mid-1800s and was never mentioned before that. Quite simply, this argument is false--a fact that cost one post-Trib writer a bundle of cash. This author offered five hundred dollars to anyone who could prove that the pre-Trib Rapture theory was known before John Darby began to popularize it in the 1840s. When it was discovered that the Reverend Morgan Edwards saw it back in 1742, the writer had to pay off his costly challenge. He has since had to admit his error and withdraw his offer.

. . .

p114 Darby claimed he got the inspiration for his understanding of a pre-Trib rapture in 1828 afterhe saw the distinction between Israel and the church in his study of the book of Ephesians. Few scholars who do not make that distinction see a pre-Trib rapture of the church. In fact, separating Israel and the church is one of the major keys to rightly understanding Bible lprophecy. Second is taking the prophetic Scriptures literally whenever possible.

Grant Jeffrey, a current prophecy scholar and speaker, has done extensive research into the writings of many prophecy teachers prior to the eighteenth century. In his book Apocalypse, he quotes many who had a definite understanding of the difference between the two phases of our Lord's coming, particularly His coming for His people prior to the Tribulation and the revealing of the 'man of sin.'

Jeffrey's most important contribution was his electrifying discovery of a statement in an apocalyptic sermon from the fourth century. [Qx emphasis added, as usual] Designated Pseudo-Ephraim, there is some question that it was really written by Ephraim of Nisibis, (A.D. 306-373), a prolific Syrian church father. Some prefer a later date for this homily, called "Sermon on the End of the World," and suggest it may not have been written until A.D. 565-627. For our purpose, the real date is immaterial, for allowing its composition as late as the seventh century proves that even at this early date (eleven hundred years before John Darby), some Christians saw the Rapture occurring before the Tribulation. In challenging Christians to holy living (always a result of Rapture teaching), the ancient author wrote:

Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? . . . All the saints and elect of God are gathering together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.6

There can be no doubt that this fourth- (or at the latest, seventh-) century Bible scholar saw the saints gathered before the Tribulation. His statement has all the marks of a pre-Trib rapture of the saints distinct from the Glorious Appearing. While Ephraim (or whoever the true author was) saw the Tribulation lasting only three and a half years, the fact remains that he saw a pre=Trib rapture of the church long before that view became popular in the nineteenth century. Considering that less than 10 percent of ancient Christian documents have been preserved, we have no doubt there must have been other Bible students who also discovered the teaching of the Blessed Hope. p115

I hope that can lay to rest all this nonsense about Darby.

LaHaye and Jenkins make many good points demonstrating from Scripture that the pre-Trib rapture is the only construction on such realities that covers the most data points. I hope to post some of their points in the coming days.

92 posted on 04/30/2007 9:27:23 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix

I expect what happens will happen.

I don’t expect to be raptured out, to be honest though, but whatever God chooses is OK with me.

But I don’t lose sleep on it either way.


93 posted on 04/30/2007 10:33:38 AM PDT by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Quix
No one has mentioned Mark Chapter 13. Isn't this the ur-Gospel?

I sometimes wonder if the rapture warning isn't a parable for something else: perhaps denying Christ and getting left behind in a world without Christians.

94 posted on 04/30/2007 11:19:25 AM PDT by firebrand
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

Agreed.


95 posted on 04/30/2007 11:31:05 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: firebrand

An interesting idea.

I’m convinced at this point, it’s a literal thing.

I don’t get your meaning about Mark 13

Heading off to the college shortly.


96 posted on 04/30/2007 11:32:44 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix

Only that Mark was written first (unless further research has proved that wrong). Chapter 13 is where the “after much tribulation” phrase appears, just as it does in Matthew.


97 posted on 04/30/2007 11:36:03 AM PDT by firebrand
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To: GrandEagle

that is the difference between the second coming and the rapture.
If the Church was to go through the tribulation, it would hardly be a blessed hope to look forward to. I believe if Christ meant for the Church to go through the tribulation, there would be specific instructions how to do so.

Pauls teaching on the rapture in thessolonians tells us to comfort one another with these words, not scare the living daylights out of each other with these words
also, the church in thessolonians thought they had missed the rapture, but the trib had not happened, so they were obviously a pre-trib church, and had been taught on the end times by Paul himself


98 posted on 04/30/2007 12:32:13 PM PDT by Mom MD (The scorn of fools is music to the ears of the wise)
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To: Mom MD
Wow! Talk about a blast from the past!
This is a very interesting discussion - unfortunately I am filling in for my Pastor while he is on vacation and also having 4 children - you can imagine that there is no time left for anything! So, if I may, I would like to postpone response for a week.
I will be more than happy to discuss this with you but I don't care much for arguments. Hopefully we can discuss this as two believers in search of the truth. I certainly stand to be corrected if one can show it to me in Gods word.
99 posted on 04/30/2007 1:06:07 PM PDT by GrandEagle
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To: Quix

bookmark


100 posted on 04/30/2007 1:07:52 PM PDT by DocRock (All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52 ... Go ahead, look it up!)
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