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1 posted on 02/24/2006 8:41:02 AM PST by conserv371
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To: conserv371
Enoch[,] who some have seen as a type of the church

Interesting. Do you believe Enoch is a type of the church? If so, is there any other basis for it, other than the fact that he was taken up before the flood?

2 posted on 02/24/2006 8:48:36 AM PST by newgeezer (Just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary.)
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To: conserv371
I once was a "pre-trib" person myself.
I'll give you a challenge. Find ANY reference to the return of Jesus Christ where there is a time reference that is not "After great Tribulation" or some similar statement. You will find none.
What you will find is that every time reference given is after the tribulation.

4 posted on 02/24/2006 9:20:13 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: labette

later study ping

5 posted on 02/24/2006 9:36:03 AM PST by labette (In the beginning God created....)
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Ping to read later

18 posted on 02/24/2006 12:03:48 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Colossians 4:5)
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To: conserv371

All of the above passages could deal with the "Bowls of wrath" period rather than the entire tribulation. The scriptures speak of the quickness of Christ's return, not that it could occur any time. We won't know the hour, but we will know the season.

20 posted on 02/24/2006 1:00:07 PM PST by aimhigh
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To: conserv371

No matter what the arguments are, my ready answer is: God will do what God wants to do, how he wants to do it, in his time and in his way. And no matter how many hours we argue over it, nothing can change that fact.

I just want to be ready.

25 posted on 02/24/2006 4:40:51 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: conserv371; GrandEagle; blue-duncan; bremenboy; aimhigh; Iscool
After over 25 years, I still find these discussions fascinating.

To conserv371, blue-duncan, others;
Thank you for starting this thread. Considering my much limited understanding, I think we are in agreement. At least I am able to fit a few more pieces of the "puzzle" together using your/my interpretation of Scripture.

To GrandEagle, bremenboy, others;
Don't even joke about being a heretic, because you are obviously not. Let us also agree that which of us is wrong, it is we and our lack of total knowledge of God's Word that is wrong and that God's Word is right.

We may be "opposites". I was raised in a church that never mentioned a "rapture" or a "millennium". I literally stumbled into this way many years ago and am still excited over it. Allow me to add a couple of verses to ponder upon:

1 Thessalonians ch5 vs 9-11: "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Who died for us, that,whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

Luke ch21 vs28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Are we told to stockpile food? To build bomb shelters?
Nope. We're told to "look up", and to "fear not". Interesting. I wonder what Paul means by a mystery when he writes in 1 Corinthians ch15 vs 51 where it is written, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."
What is this "mystery"? Is something revealed here we did not know before?

Either way FRiend, avoid the temptation to view the "rapture crowd" as slightly less informed. What if we are right? {You'll be in for a pleasant surprise!} What if we are wrong? What if someday we look out our window and find ourselves in the middle of the tribulation?
Well then I suggest we are going to need people like you praying earnestly for us, since undoubtedly many will have their faith shaken.

I've ranted long enough. Let me say that I appreciate all the opinions.

27 posted on 02/24/2006 6:42:18 PM PST by labette (In the beginning God created....)
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To: conserv371
The harvest rate is accelerating.
Jesus at Rev. 22:20 says,
"Surely I come quickly."

"Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

33 posted on 02/25/2006 1:37:26 AM PST by .30Carbine (amen)
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To: conserv371

hehe- I'm not even a pre-millenialist, much less pre-trib!

I prefer the view that we are here to occupy this territory until He comes. Dominion and authority, not failure and escapism.

I know I know. Flame away! :)

37 posted on 02/25/2006 3:47:47 AM PST by ovrtaxt (Join the FR folding team!!
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To: conserv371
>whether the church will go through the tribulation

Matthew 25

"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.


No one knows for sure
the theological truths
in this parable.

But one thing is clear:
The bridegroom returns at night
and shelters his brides

before the events
of the next day get started.
I think that's a clue.
40 posted on 02/25/2006 7:33:06 AM PST by theFIRMbss
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To: conserv371

The Biblical pattern does not support a pre-tribulation rapture. God does not rescue His people from adversity, He makes a way for them to go through it. This doctrine is a heresy that infilitrated the certain sects of Christianity in the 1800s. It is nothing more than wishful thinkng and escapism.

47 posted on 02/25/2006 8:11:33 AM PST by ShandaLear (Announcing you plans is a good way to hear God laugh. Al Swearengen, 1877óDeadwood)
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To: conserv371
..the resource which settled it for me some 30 years ago was "Things To Come" by J. Dwight Pentecost.

He did a fair comparison between the main rapture and millennial positions.

The pre-trib rapture and dispensational pre-millennial position is one I feel very confident in...

58 posted on 02/25/2006 11:30:08 AM PST by WalterSkinner ( ..when there is any conflict between God and Caesar -- guess who loses?)
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To: conserv371
Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt, and now recognize the Darby/Scholfield/LaHaye brand of snake oil as a poison that has done a great deal of harm to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank heaven, as ballyhooed milestones pass one by one, with nothing happening, a lot of saints are finding more God-honoring ways of viewing, and working to change the course of events.

A quick and useful aphorim:

68 posted on 02/25/2006 2:41:20 PM PST by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: conserv371
This completely slipped my mind...You pointed out in the opening thread the "Divine rescue" of Enoch and Noah. But there is yet another example in Genesis. Chapter 19-- the angels saved Lot before the sudden destruction of Sodom.
76 posted on 02/25/2006 8:02:42 PM PST by labette (In the beginning God created....)
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To: conserv371

There are 7 trumpets (Book of Revelations). Jesus comes back at the LAST trumpet (the 7th trumpet).

Which means all of God's people (not just Jewish converts to Christianity) will be here on earth through trumpets 1-7 (except for those, of course, who die a regular natural death and go on to be with the Lord).

During the pouring out of His wrath, God has a plan for His people to be protected, just as Noah was protected during the flood of judgment on the world.

And also Lot was protected from the wrath and judgment of Sodom, Gomorrha, and the surrounding cities (see the Book of Jude).

In both cases (Noah and Lot), they were still on the earth (did not go flying off) -- but were protected and spared by God.

Jesus specifically used the days of Noah and Lot...."as it was in the days of Noah (Lot), so shall it be in the days of the Son of Man"....(see Matthew chapter 24 and Luke chapter 17).

In both cases, the wicked were the ones TAKEN... "the flood came and took them all away.... the fire came and destroyed them all...."

83 posted on 02/26/2006 11:47:04 PM PST by Cedar
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To: conserv371; Alamo-Girl; airborne; American in Israel; AnimalLover; auggy; backhoe; backslacker; ...
END TIMES PING LIST PING. Please let me know if you want on or off the list. THOSE already ON the list will be kept on the list unless and until I'm notified to delist them by FREEPMAIL.

Rather than start a new thread, it seems more fitting to add to this one. I mostly agree that the priority is to be ready regardless. And, I still don't think anyone has it all figured out. I was reared pre-Trib then moved to a--'God will make it all pan out, regardless' position--which I still largely hold. However, LaHaye and Jenkins are also quite convincing.

Am reading Tim LaHaye & Jerry B Jenkins: ARE WE LIVING IN THE END TIMES?

It is often contended that John Darby was the first to mention the Pre-trib perspective. Clearly, that's not so.



For several years opponents of the pre=Trib position have argued that it was invented by John Darby in the mid-1800s and was never mentioned before that. Quite simply, this argument is false--a fact that cost one post-Trib writer a bundle of cash. This author offered five hundred dollars to anyone who could prove that the pre-Trib Rapture theory was known before John Darby began to popularize it in the 1840s. When it was discovered that the Reverend Morgan Edwards saw it back in 1742, the writer had to pay off his costly challenge. He has since had to admit his error and withdraw his offer.

. . .

p114 Darby claimed he got the inspiration for his understanding of a pre-Trib rapture in 1828 afterhe saw the distinction between Israel and the church in his study of the book of Ephesians. Few scholars who do not make that distinction see a pre-Trib rapture of the church. In fact, separating Israel and the church is one of the major keys to rightly understanding Bible lprophecy. Second is taking the prophetic Scriptures literally whenever possible.

Grant Jeffrey, a current prophecy scholar and speaker, has done extensive research into the writings of many prophecy teachers prior to the eighteenth century. In his book Apocalypse, he quotes many who had a definite understanding of the difference between the two phases of our Lord's coming, particularly His coming for His people prior to the Tribulation and the revealing of the 'man of sin.'

Jeffrey's most important contribution was his electrifying discovery of a statement in an apocalyptic sermon from the fourth century. [Qx emphasis added, as usual] Designated Pseudo-Ephraim, there is some question that it was really written by Ephraim of Nisibis, (A.D. 306-373), a prolific Syrian church father. Some prefer a later date for this homily, called "Sermon on the End of the World," and suggest it may not have been written until A.D. 565-627. For our purpose, the real date is immaterial, for allowing its composition as late as the seventh century proves that even at this early date (eleven hundred years before John Darby), some Christians saw the Rapture occurring before the Tribulation. In challenging Christians to holy living (always a result of Rapture teaching), the ancient author wrote:

Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? . . . All the saints and elect of God are gathering together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.6

There can be no doubt that this fourth- (or at the latest, seventh-) century Bible scholar saw the saints gathered before the Tribulation. His statement has all the marks of a pre-Trib rapture of the saints distinct from the Glorious Appearing. While Ephraim (or whoever the true author was) saw the Tribulation lasting only three and a half years, the fact remains that he saw a pre=Trib rapture of the church long before that view became popular in the nineteenth century. Considering that less than 10 percent of ancient Christian documents have been preserved, we have no doubt there must have been other Bible students who also discovered the teaching of the Blessed Hope. p115

I hope that can lay to rest all this nonsense about Darby.

LaHaye and Jenkins make many good points demonstrating from Scripture that the pre-Trib rapture is the only construction on such realities that covers the most data points. I hope to post some of their points in the coming days.

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To: conserv371
Pre-Trib Rapture Arguments

There are no pre-rib rapture arguments with a scriptural basis. There are plenty of pre-trib rapture arguments that stick little bits and pieces of scripture all over themselves in the hope that it will make the argument look scriptural, but all of them depend upon having previously begged the question.
121 posted on 05/02/2007 10:22:53 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: conserv371
I believe this thread is what is known as a "kook magnet".

Excellent entertainment.


136 posted on 05/11/2007 11:26:14 AM PDT by marshmallow
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