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Mary: The Ark of the New Covenant
Catholic Culture ^ | February 24, 2006 | Steve Ray

Posted on 02/26/2006 11:29:18 AM PST by NYer

Why do Catholics call Mary the Ark of the New Covenant? Answering that question will take us on a journey through the Old and New Testaments.

For example, Luke wove some marvelous things into his Gospel that only a knowledgeable Jew would have understood — a Jew who knew Jewish Scripture and had eyes to see and ears to hear. One of the things he would have understood is typology. So what is typology?

We all know that the Old Testament is full of stories, people, and historical events. A type is a person, thing, or event in the Old Testament that foreshadows something in the New Testament. It is like a taste or a hint of something that will be fulfilled or realized. Types are like pictures that come alive in a new and exciting way when seen through the eyes of Christ's revelation. Typology is the study of these types and their fulfillment. Augustine said that "the Old Testament is the New concealed, but the New Testament is the Old revealed" (Catechizing of the Uninstructed, 4:8).

The idea of typology is not new. In his letter to the Romans, Paul says that Adam was a type of the one who was to come — Christ (Rom. 5:14). Early Christians understood that the Old Testament was full of types or pictures that were fulfilled or realized in the New Testament.

Here are a few more examples of biblical typology:

The Ark of the Old Covenant
God loved his people and wanted to be close to them. He chose to do so in a very special way. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "The prayer of the people of God flourished in the shadow of the dwelling place of God's presence on earth, the ark of the covenant and the temple, under the guidance of their shepherds, especially King David, and of the prophets" (CCC 2594). God instructed Moses to build a tabernacle surrounded by heavy curtains (cf. Ex. 25-27). Within the tabernacle he was to place an ark made of acacia wood covered with gold inside and out. Within the Ark of the Covenant was placed a golden jar holding the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant (cf. Heb. 9:4).

When the ark was completed, the glory cloud of the Lord (the Shekinah Glory) covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle (Ex. 40:34-35; Num. 9:18, 22). The verb for "to cover" or "to overshadow" and the metaphor of a cloud are used in the Bible to represent the presence and glory of God. The Catechism explains:

In the theophanies of the Old Testament, the cloud, now obscure, now luminous, reveals the living and saving God, while veiling the transcendence of his glory — with Moses on Mount Sinai, at the tent of meeting, and during the wandering in the desert, and with Solomon at the dedication of the temple. In the Holy Spirit, Christ fulfills these figures [types]. The Spirit comes upon the Virgin Mary and "overshadows" her, so that she might conceive and give birth to Jesus. On the mountain of Transfiguration, the Spirit in the "cloud came and overshadowed" Jesus, Moses and Elijah, Peter, James and John, and "a voice came out of the cloud, saying, 'This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!"' Finally, the cloud took Jesus out of the sight of the disciples on the day of his Ascension and will reveal him as Son of man in glory on the day of his final coming. The glory of the Lord "overshadowed" the ark and filled the tabernacle (CCC 697).

It's easy to miss the parallel between the Holy Spirit overshadowing the ark and the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, between the Ark of the Old Covenant as the dwelling place of God and Mary as the new dwelling place of God.

God was very specific about every exact detail of the ark (Ex. 25-30). It was a place where God himself would dwell (Ex. 25:8). God wanted his words — inscribed on stone — housed in a perfect container covered with pure gold within and without. How much more would he want his Word — Jesus — to have a perfect dwelling place! If the only begotten Son were to take up residence in the womb of a human girl, would he not make her flawless?

The Virgin Mary is the living shrine of the Word of God, the Ark of the New and Eternal Covenant. In fact, St. Luke's account of the annunciation of the angel to Mary nicely incorporates the images of the tent of meeting with God in Sinai and of the temple of Zion. Just as the cloud covered the people of God marching in the desert (cf. Num. 10:34; Deut. 33:12; Ps. 91:4) and just as the same cloud, as a sign of the divine mystery present in the midst of Israel, hovered over the Ark of the Covenant (cf. Ex. 40:35), so now the shadow of the Most High envelopes and penetrates the tabernacle of the New Covenant that is the womb of Mary (cf. Luke 1:35) (Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People, The Shrine: Memory, Presence and Prophecy of the Living God).

Luke weaves additional parallels into the story of Mary — types that could be overlooked if one is unfamiliar with the Old Testament. After Moses died, Joshua led the Israelites across the Jordan River into the Promised Land. Joshua established the Ark of the Covenant in Shiloh, where it stayed for more than 200 years. One day the Israelites were losing a battle with the Philistines, so they snatched the ark and rushed it to the front lines. The Philistines captured the ark, but it caused them great problems, so they sent it back to Israel (1 Sam. 5:1-6:12).

David went out to retrieve the ark (1 Sam 6:1-2). After a man named Uzzah was struck dead when he touched the ark, David was afraid and said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" He left the ark in the hill country of Judea for three months. David danced and leapt in front of the ark and everyone shouted for joy. The house of Obededom, which had housed the ark, was blessed, and then David took the ark to Jerusalem (2 Sam. 6:9-14).

Compare David and the ark to Luke's account of the Visitation:

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord" (Luke 1:39-45).

Here are the parallels:

It seems clear that Luke has used typology to reveal something about the place of Mary in salvation history. In the Ark of the Old Covenant, God came to his people with a spiritual presence, but in Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, God comes to dwell with his people not only spiritually but physically, in the womb of a specially prepared Jewish girl.

The Old Testament tells us that one item was placed inside the Ark of the Old Covenant while in the Sinai wilderness: God told Moses to put the stone tablets with the Ten Commandments inside the ark (Deut. 10:3-5). Hebrews 9:4 informs us that two additional items were placed in the Ark: "a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's rod that budded." Notice the amazing parallels: In the ark was the law of God inscribed in stone; in Mary's womb was the Word of God in flesh. In the ark was the urn of manna, the bread from heaven that kept God's people alive in the wilderness; in Mary's womb is the Bread of Life come down from heaven that brings eternal life. In the ark was the rod of Aaron, the proof of true priesthood; in Mary's womb is the true priest. In the third century, St. Gregory the Wonder Worker said that Mary is truly an ark — "gold within and gold without, and she has received in her womb all the treasures of the sanctuary."

While the apostle John was exiled on the island of Patmos, he wrote something that would have shocked any first-century Jew. The ark of the Old Covenant had been lost for centuries — no one had seen it for about 600 years. But in Revelation 11:19, John makes a surprising announcement: "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple?'

At this point chapter 11 ends and chapter 12 begins. But the Bible was not written with chapter divisions — these were added in the twelfth century. When John penned these words, there was no division between chapters 11 and 12; it was a continuing narrative.

What did John say immediately after seeing the Ark of the Covenant in heaven? "And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child" (Rev. 12:1-2). The woman is Mary, the Ark of the Covenant, revealed by God to John. She was seen bearing the child who would rule the world with a rod of iron (Rev. 12:5). Mary was seen as the ark and as a queen.

But does this passage really refer to Mary? Some say the woman represents Israel or the Church, and certainly she does. John's use of rich symbolism is well known, but it is obvious from the Bible itself that the woman is Mary. The Bible begins with a real man (Adam), a real woman (Eve), and a real serpent (the devil) — and it also ends with a real man (Jesus, the Last Adam [1 Cor. 15:45]), a real woman (Mary, the New Eve [Rev. 11:19-12:2]), and a real serpent (the devil of old). All of this was foretold in Genesis 3:15.

John Henry Cardinal Newman wrote about this passage in Revelation:

I would maintain is this, that the Holy Apostle would not have spoken of the Church under this particular image unless there had existed a Blessed Virgin Mary, who was exalted on high and the object of veneration to all the faithful. No one doubts that the "man-child" spoken of is an allusion to our Lord; why then is not "the Woman" an allusion to his mother?

Later in the same chapter we read that the devil went out to persecute the woman's other offspring — Christians — which certainly seems to indicate that Mary is somehow the mother of the Church (Rev. 12:17).

Even if someone rejects Catholic teaching regarding Mary, he cannot deny that Catholics have scriptural foundations for it. And it is a teaching that has been taught by Christians from ancient times. Here are a few representative quotations from the early Church — some written well before the New Testament books were officially compiled into the final New Testament canon.

Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296-373) was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: "O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides" (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin).

Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213-c. 270) wrote: "Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, 'Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.' For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary" (Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church echoes the words from the earliest centuries: "Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the Ark of the Covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is 'the dwelling of God . . . with men"' (CCC 2676).

The early Christians taught the same thing that the Catholic Church teaches today about Mary, including her being the Ark of the New Covenant.

Mary the Ark As Revealed in Mary's Visit to Elizabeth

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
The ark traveled to the house of Obed-edom in the hill country of Judea (2 Sam. 6:1-11). Mary traveled to the house of Elizabeth and Zechariah in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39).
Dressed as a priest, David danced and leapt in front of the ark (2 Sam. 6:14). John the Baptist — of priestly lineage — leapt in his mother's womb at the approach of Mary (Luke 1:41).
David asks, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9). Elizabeth asks, "Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43).
David shouts in the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:15). Elizabeth "exclaimed with a loud cry" in the presence of the Mary (Luke 1:42).
The ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months (2 Sam. 6:11). Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months (Luke 1:56).
The house of Obed-edom was blessed by the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:11). The word blessed is used three times; surely the house was blessed by God (Luke 1:39-45).
The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God's presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9-11). Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21-22).

Inside the Ark

Inside the Ark of the Old Covenant Inside Mary, Ark of the New Covenant
The stone tablets of the law — the word of God inscribed on stone The body of Jesus Christ — the word of God in the flesh
The urn filled with manna from the wilderness — the miraculous bread come down from heaven The womb containing Jesus, the bread of life come down from heaven (John 6:41)

The rod of Aaron that budded to prove and defend the true high priest
The actual and eternal High Priest



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; General Discusssion; History; Orthodox Christian; Prayer; Theology
KEYWORDS: arkofthecovenant; blessedmother; mary; newtestament; oldtestament
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Steve Ray is the author of Crossing the Tiber, Upon This Rock, and St. John's Gospel. He is also co-author of Catholic Answers' Papacy Learning Guide. You may contact him through his web site, www.catholicconvert.com
1 posted on 02/26/2006 11:29:19 AM PST by NYer
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...

Beautiful examples of typology.


2 posted on 02/26/2006 11:30:26 AM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: NYer

Thanks for posting this. I know the thread will be hammered later, but for the moment, I like to savor that image of our Lady filled with the Shekinah.

How amazing.



I see thee, little child in your mother's lap.
In you the impossible has come to be,
Creator enters creation and takes a nap
As mother you did make sings lullaby to thee.


3 posted on 02/26/2006 12:04:17 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: NYer

kewl. Mary is awesome.


4 posted on 02/26/2006 12:10:43 PM PST by the invisib1e hand ("Who is it, really, making up your mind?")
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: Invincibly Ignorant

And you -- fittingly named "ignorant," owe your own scriptural canon to the Catholic church.


6 posted on 02/26/2006 12:45:08 PM PST by AlaninSA (It's one nation under God -- brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: AlaninSA

When people want to pick on us and we know they are going to be sarcastic, we can say a prayer to our Blessed Mother, and offer up our irritations and pray for their needs.

But the Jewish people pretty much put the Old Testament scriptures together themselves. The septuagint predates the Christian church...and then later, they chose their own canon for their own reasons.


7 posted on 02/26/2006 12:52:08 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant; NYer

That didn't take long. Do you think this one will last 10 days?


8 posted on 02/26/2006 12:59:24 PM PST by Jaded (The truth shall set you free, but lying to yourself turns you French.)
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To: NYer

Agreed.


9 posted on 02/26/2006 1:04:37 PM PST by Ohioan from Florida (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.- Edmund Burke)
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To: Jaded; fatima

O Heart who knows well
how to love,
as generous as human heart
can be,
channel of God's grace
for this sad world,
ark of the covenant,
who carried within you
the one who created you,
You who offered your love,
Your generous heart
no matter the cost,
the sorrow,
the grief,
or how many swords would pass through
simply because the Lord asked it,
simply because you loved greatly,
Simply because that was you.

Mother of my Lord,
Immaculata,
Heaven's brightest rose,
Great-heart,
Full of Grace,
blessed,
Pray for us now, and at the hour of our deaths,
Amen


10 posted on 02/26/2006 1:06:02 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: AlaninSA
And you -- fittingly named "ignorant," owe your own scriptural canon to the Catholic church.

Ah..I don't think so. If you'd have paid attention you'd know I don't find NT writings to be inspired.

11 posted on 02/26/2006 1:28:34 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: AlaninSA

But I will concede that you owe the Jews a debt of gratitude for 2/3's of your canon.


12 posted on 02/26/2006 1:30:07 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

This only further demonstrates the degree of your ignorance. The writings of the OT at one time have included more and less of what we now consider canon. The Catholic Church defined what we now have in our Bibles. Protestants -- Luther, Calvin and others -- made additional changes.


13 posted on 02/26/2006 2:11:53 PM PST by AlaninSA (It's one nation under God -- brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

So whats your point?


14 posted on 02/26/2006 2:36:20 PM PST by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: NYer

"For example, Luke wove some marvelous things into his Gospel that only a knowledgeable Jew would have understood"

Your post might be better received were it not for the fact that Luke was a Greek, writing in Greek, to a friend in Greece. How would Luke or his friend have the understanding of the Hebrew language which "only a knowledgeable Jew would have understood?"


15 posted on 02/26/2006 2:41:09 PM PST by tenn2005 (Birth is merly an event; it is the path walked that becomes one's life.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

I always wonder what must motivate someone to post something in the Religion forum when they clearly intend only to insult anyone who holds faith in a Religion.


16 posted on 02/26/2006 2:47:54 PM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: tenn2005
"One of the things he would have understood is typology."

Is it your assertion then that a fluency in Hebrew is required to understand typology?

17 posted on 02/26/2006 2:51:08 PM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: FormerLib

By no means. However the article states that these things could have only been understood by a "knowledgeable Jew." Neither Luke or his friend in Greece were "knowledgeable Jews." That is the only point that I am making.


18 posted on 02/26/2006 2:55:25 PM PST by tenn2005 (Birth is merly an event; it is the path walked that becomes one's life.)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

Each week when the offerings are presented, we chant a hymn in which is this phrase .....

Mary's womb became for Me a fertile garden ....

What a beautifu typology!

Last night, on EWTN's program, Fr. Corapi talked about the human holocaust of abortion in which innocent babies are torn from what should be the safest place for them - their mother's womb.

Beautiful poem ... thanks for posting it.

19 posted on 02/26/2006 3:02:16 PM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: Jaded
Do you think this one will last 10 days?

Lol .... they're still going at it on the Protestant thread. This thread may very well fizzle, as a result. I did't post it so much for commentary as to share these symbols with the catholics in the forum.

My pastor is from the East. Each month he hosts a gospel 'soiree' - a casual evening of discussion on the Gospels. Last week he chose a parable from St. Luke which we all read silently to ourselves. He then asked us what stood out. He then reread the parable, dissecting each element as we went along. At a certain phrase he paused, cited it in Koine Greek and then gave us a fuller explanation. Like this article, he pointed out the typology in the parable and reminded us that the Gospels were written for the Jewish people.

Afterwards, I asked him about our Lord's reference to Himself as the "gate". He explained that in Jerusalem, there were many gates to the city. That is where the judges heard disagreements and made rulings. Jesus referred to Himself as the "gate" to symbolize that He is perfect Justice.

Understanding typology in the Gospels, truly opens up Scripture. It moves us backwards in time to when these parables and stories were written. As Father noted, the early christians would gather each week and recall the words of Jesus, trying to put them all into context. This was before the Gospels were written. Like a good joke, it was the most provocative and eventful stories that were eventually recorded in written form. That is why one of the Gospel writers says that if all the words of Jesus were recorded, there would not be enough books to contain them.

20 posted on 02/26/2006 3:18:23 PM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: NYer

Ping to read later


21 posted on 02/26/2006 3:18:44 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Colossians 4:5)
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To: FormerLib
I always wonder what must motivate someone to post something in the Religion forum when they clearly intend only to insult anyone who holds faith in a Religion./i>

My religious faith was insulted by the article. Is this a Catholic forum or a religious forum?

22 posted on 02/26/2006 3:34:41 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: FormerLib
I always wonder what must motivate someone to post something in the Religion forum when they clearly intend only to insult anyone who holds faith in a Religion.

My religious faith was insulted by the article. Is this a Catholic forum or a religious forum?

23 posted on 02/26/2006 3:35:04 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: tenn2005; FormerLib
How would Luke or his friend have the understanding of the Hebrew language which "only a knowledgeable Jew would have understood?"

St. Luke had a great knowledge of the Septuagint and of things Jewish, which he acquired either as a Jewish proselyte (St. Jerome) or after he became a Christian, through his close intercourse with the Apostles and disciples.

Gospel of St. Luke

24 posted on 02/26/2006 3:37:03 PM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: AlaninSA
The Catholic Church defined what we now have in our Bibles. Protestants -- Luther, Calvin and others -- made additional changes.

They have never defined what I have in my Tanahk. We didn't adopt 2/3rds of your writings, I believe it was the other way around.

25 posted on 02/26/2006 3:38:18 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: the invisib1e hand

Mary is the blessed Mother and Queen of Heaven and Earth.


26 posted on 02/26/2006 3:40:25 PM PST by rambo316 (Social engineering does not work and never will.)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

Beautiful.


27 posted on 02/26/2006 3:44:58 PM PST by fatima (Just say it if it is for love-have no regrets.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
My religious faith was insulted by the article. Is this a Catholic forum or a religious forum?

How? Explain.

28 posted on 02/26/2006 3:51:30 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
My religious faith was insulted by the article.

So you intended to improve things by insulting the Roman Catholics? I fail to see any dignity in such an approach.

Is this a Catholic forum or a religious forum?

If it were only a Catholic forum, I wouldn't be allowed to post here.

29 posted on 02/26/2006 3:53:42 PM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: AlaninSA; Invincibly Ignorant
This only further demonstrates the degree of your ignorance. The writings of the OT at one time have included more and less of what we now consider canon. The Catholic Church defined what we now have in our Bibles. Protestants -- Luther, Calvin and others -- made additional changes.

Romans 3:
[1] Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision?
[2] Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God.

But then, what does Paul know?
30 posted on 02/26/2006 3:54:34 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: NYer

In context, this can only mean that Luke had acquired knowledge of the Jewish faith. Can that be such an amazing thing? I believe the Bible tells us of such Gentiles in several places.


31 posted on 02/26/2006 3:55:28 PM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: FormerLib

The empire was full of gentiles who admired and studied the Jewish ways, and are often referred to as God-fearers. A lot of early Christians came from such backgrounds.


32 posted on 02/26/2006 4:13:52 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

What is your religious faith and how exactly was it insulted??


33 posted on 02/26/2006 4:17:10 PM PST by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: OLD REGGIE
To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God.

This means that God revealed Himself to the Hebrews first, through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Elias, and the prophets. It doesn't mean that they "regulate" what is Scripture. They don't have a Bible, only part of it. Because of the early Christians and their teachings, the rabbis of the late First Century/early Second Century A.D. finally decided what their "canon" of Scripture was, and they "conveniently" left out the part of the Old Testament that support resurrection of the dead, among other things.

34 posted on 02/26/2006 4:20:13 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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To: FormerLib

You should be on the thread that's been going on for 10 days. The same arguments and misconceptions, the same refutations. The same disagreements about interpretation. Another day, another round.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1578939/posts


35 posted on 02/26/2006 4:21:55 PM PST by Jaded (The truth shall set you free, but lying to yourself turns you French.)
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To: NYer

Thank you for this article...I was not born to Catholic parents, was never a Catholic...always was a Protestant..and yet, over the years, have come to doubt very much, that various Protestant religions actually have the whole truth within them, as they all have so many different and wildly varying beliefs...

I have long fought myself internally, regarding the Catholic religion...never did buy into the arguments that because they were supposedly around from the beginning of Christianity, and that their history, and traditions, and early church fathers, had more knowledge and more authority to speak about the truth of what the Bible said...

And yet...over the years, I have found myself drawn more and more to the Catholic faith... for a wide variety of reasons....one of those reasons, is that altho I do not participate in any of the religious threads on FR, I do manage to read almost all of them, and contemplate what is said in these threads, and pray over what I have read...

Without saying anything negative about any posters, or their postings, I will dwell on the positive...which is, that the Catholic posters, have brought forward a wealth of information, a wealth of historical information, and absolutely clear and stunning arguments and discussions for defending and supporting their faith....I am truly in awe of the Catholics who come here, and really, against some absolutely awful things being said about them, and to them, remain thoughtful, reverent, and willing to assist any and all who ask for help in understanding...

I have no doubt at this point in my life, that my further study into the Catholic religion is the direction that I should be taking...its just clearly apparent to me, that indeed, it is the Catholic religion which does hold within it, the Truth...and this is something that even just a few years ago, I would have never dreamed of saying...

So thanks to all those Catholics on these threads, who through their own diligent perseverance when under attack, are able to remain patient, helpful, and most of all, civil...and so very willing to share so much of their beliefs, their history, and their traditions...I think its their faith, in action...

So thanks to all, who have been effective evangelizers for the Catholic faith...perhaps one day, I shall be able to count myself among you...


36 posted on 02/26/2006 5:05:47 PM PST by andysandmikesmom
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To: Invincibly Ignorant; Pyro7480
My religious faith was insulted by the article. Is this a Catholic forum or a religious forum?

It's a religious forum, and Catholicism is a religion. Surprise!
37 posted on 02/26/2006 6:22:00 PM PST by Deo volente
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To: andysandmikesmom

"So thanks to all, who have been effective evangelizers for the Catholic faith...perhaps one day, I shall be able to count myself among you..."

Wonderful post! Lent is coming up, starting on Wednesday: perhaps you can journey with us as we anticipate Christ's most glorious Death and Resurrection, and use it as a time to learn more about the Faith.


38 posted on 02/26/2006 6:25:32 PM PST by tlRCta (Oh, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner!)
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To: tlRCta
"as we anticipate Christ's most glorious Death and Resurrection"

Perhaps "commemorate" would be a better word than "anticipate."
39 posted on 02/26/2006 6:27:22 PM PST by tlRCta (Oh, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner!)
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To: tlRCta

Thank you...It would be a worthwhile journey, beginning on Wed...I will be sure to read everyones comments...and pray that they lead me closer to what I have been searching for...


40 posted on 02/26/2006 6:33:10 PM PST by andysandmikesmom
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To: escapefromboston; Invincibly Ignorant

***What is your religious faith and how exactly was it insulted??***

This guy (Invincibly Ignorant)started pulling this on some of the threads I was posting on.

A search of his earlier posts to other threads shows he was a Christian who claims to have converted to Judaism.

Here is what he said on another thread...

***Posted by Invincibly Ignorant to zeeba neighba
On Religion 02/20/2006 1:05:28 PM CST · 79 of 130


You really have some kind of problem with Jews. I don't know if its a "Christ-killer" mentality or what but you should try and be more sensative.***

And another....



****Where Have All the Protestants Gone?

Posted by Invincibly Ignorant to NYer
On Religion 02/15/2006 9:05:43 AM CST · 20 of 1,889


This protestant coverted to Judaism. :-)****



So, Mr. Ignorant, I will ask you the same question I have asked before and you never answer...
What sin did Israel commit that was so bad that the jewish people have been without a temple or sacrifice for almost 2000 years?





41 posted on 02/26/2006 6:52:34 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Islam, the religion of the criminally insane.)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

some of you as yourself, are so nice in replying to others who's' understandings are different, when discussing a point of view and some throw verbal acid!

As lurker on the last thread I could not help but to respond and point out how testy many were over something that seem fraction of a hair of differences!

Discussions and exchange is nice it can cause one to think and learn or understand each other!


42 posted on 02/26/2006 7:54:42 PM PST by restornu (words of Zenock to be crucified, of Neum to be buried in a sepulcher,of Zenos three days of darknes)
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To: AlaninSA; Invincibly Ignorant
This only further demonstrates the degree of your ignorance. The writings of the OT at one time have included more and less of what we now consider canon.

The Catholic Church defined what we now have in our Bibles. Protestants -- Luther, Calvin and others -- made additional changes.

How can you say that there are millions who say the Bible is infallible?

Many here on this forum have said that over and over through the years!

You your sefl might have said it!

43 posted on 02/26/2006 8:03:05 PM PST by restornu (words of Zenock to be crucified, of Neum to be buried in a sepulcher,of Zenos three days of darknes)
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To: FormerLib

Low blood sugar!


44 posted on 02/26/2006 8:11:30 PM PST by restornu (words of Zenock to be crucified, of Neum to be buried in a sepulcher,of Zenos three days of darknes)
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To: restornu

I always thought it had something to do with lithium, but you just never know.


45 posted on 02/26/2006 8:12:59 PM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: restornu

Huh?


46 posted on 02/26/2006 8:13:29 PM PST by Jaded (The truth shall set you free, but lying to yourself turns you French.)
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To: Jaded

My point is some can be nice when having a discussion and others are very difficult of not taking on to return in kind!

Some times one can get caught up and before they know it instead of a discussion and exchanging points of view it become a free for all and very unpleasant!

some of these folks can be downright mean and insulting!


47 posted on 02/26/2006 8:21:09 PM PST by restornu (words of Zenock to be crucified, of Neum to be buried in a sepulcher,of Zenos three days of darknes)
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To: NYer

NYer Awesome post!

May Our Lady Queen of the Angels send Michael the Archangel to aid you in battle. If She hasn’t already, you do appear to be tireless in your defense of the faith.


48 posted on 02/26/2006 8:28:37 PM PST by infool7 (Ignorance isnít bliss its slavery in denial)
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To: restornu

Exactly. We can learn from each other, politely and lovingly or we can play mean games, which does little good, IMHO. Most of us are pretty solid in what we believe. We know why we believe what we believe. In our discussions, it can be useful to explain to others why we have come to the conclusions we have, but after a point, we have to agree to disagree or start bashing each other with verbal planks. What good does it do to bash each other?

IMHO, of course.


49 posted on 02/26/2006 8:44:10 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: NYer

Excellent post. Thanks!


50 posted on 02/27/2006 4:25:28 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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