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[Catholic] Tradition catching on with Baptists [Ecumenical Ash Wed. Service]
Birmingham News ^ | Wednesday, March 01, 2006 | Greg Garrison

Posted on 03/01/2006 10:35:38 AM PST by Full Court

Tradition catching on with Baptists

Protestants begin to take part in Ash Wednesday for its theological lessons
Wednesday, March 01, 2006
GREG GARRISON
News staff writer

It used to be that Baptists had nothing to do with Ash Wednesday, a liturgical holiday they associated with Catholics. No more.

"It's a good way of putting the congregation in the right mind-set to prepare for Easter," said the Rev. Christopher Hamlin, pastor of Tabernacle Baptist Church in Smithfield.

An ecumenical service at 6:30 tonight at Our Lady Queen of the Universe Catholic Church will include participation by three Baptist churches - Baptist Church of the Covenant and Trinity Baptist, both on Southside, and Tabernacle.

"For us to go to the Catholic church, that's something new as Baptists," said the Rev. Sarah Jackson Shelton, the Covenant pastor. "It unites us as the bigger church, and with a larger tradition. ... It's being part of a sacred story that belongs to all of us."

Other Baptist churches observe the tradition on their own. Fellowship of the Valley, for example, will have a service at 7 tonight at the Lake Cyrus Clubhouse in Hoover.

"It's an appreciation for the symbols of our faith, an opportunity to see, feel and touch those symbols," said the fellowship's pastor, the Rev. Michial Lewis.

Lewis said the Reformation of the 1500s, when Martin Luther led a reaction against abuses in the Roman Catholic Church, resulted in rejection of traditions such as Lent by many Protestants.

"We do emphasize that our relationship with Christ is through faith alone, and the reformers wanted to avoid the appearance that we gain acceptance with God through rituals or symbols," Lewis said. "Now, people can understand the difference. These symbols come alongside as holy reminders."

Robert Hodgson, dean of the Nida Institute for Biblical Scholarship at the American Bible Society in New York City, said many evangelicals are beginning to see the biblical roots of Lent. "Jesus goes into the wilderness for 40 days and disciplines himself with fasting and prayer."

The 40 days of Lent are preparation for Easter, when Christians celebrate the resurrection of Jesus. Easter is April 16 this year for more than a billion Western Christians and April 23 for Eastern Orthodox.

Baptists are taking an increased interest in the liturgical season for its theological lessons, Shelton said. "It's important for us to take the opportunity to confess our sin."

During many Christian observances of Ash Wednesday, the minister rubs ashes on the foreheads of congregants and says, "You are dust and to dust you shall return," quoting a verse from Genesis.

The wearing of ashes is prominent in the New Testament with John the Baptist, who called for repentance and wore sackcloth and ashes.

"It's the outward, visible symbol of something that's happening internally," Shelton said.

"We too will return to ashes," she said. "There's life beyond that, and hope beyond what we experience in this life."

E-mail: ggarrison@bhamnews.com

© 2006 The Birmingham News

© 2006 al.com All Rights Reserved.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Eastern Religions; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Humor; Islam; Judaism; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Orthodox Christian; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Religion & Science; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: ashwednesday; baptist; baptistprotestants; catholic; ecumenical; liberal; protestant; womenpreachers
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Feel free to add your own keywords. I have to email this guy and tell him that Baptists are not Protestants, but I am not sure if these groups are real baptits!!
1 posted on 03/01/2006 10:35:40 AM PST by Full Court
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To: Full Court; WKB; PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; SoothingDave; annalex; Jaded; Cronos; wmfights; ...

Ping to article.


2 posted on 03/01/2006 10:37:35 AM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum; Titanites; Nihil Obstat; NYer; Patrick Madrid; OLD REGGIE; tutstar; ...

Baptist and Catholics together ping.


3 posted on 03/01/2006 10:42:49 AM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: Full Court
Episcopalians and most protestants have always done Ash Wednesday.

My guess is that the confusion comes from the overwhelming number of Baptists of convenience in Birmingham.(they're Baptists because everyone else is and the church has nice activities)

So9

4 posted on 03/01/2006 10:43:04 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (" I am just going outside, and may be some time.")
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To: Full Court; tutstar; blue-duncan; caryatid; Nightshift; TexGuy; fortheDeclaration; DocRock; ...

Baptist Don't Miss Prayer Meeting tonight Ping


5 posted on 03/01/2006 10:46:40 AM PST by WKB
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To: Servant of the 9

This is Birmingham, Alabama. There was previously not a lot of mixing Baptists with Protestants and/or Catholic traditions.


6 posted on 03/01/2006 10:47:06 AM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: WKB

Amen about prayer meeting! My pastor is teaching through Revelations, and we are on chapter 2.


7 posted on 03/01/2006 10:47:49 AM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: Full Court

Obviously not Southern Baptist churches. A woman minister?


8 posted on 03/01/2006 10:56:32 AM PST by swmobuffalo (the only good terrorist is a dead one)
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To: swmobuffalo

They were probably SBC at one time, but are very liberal now.


9 posted on 03/01/2006 11:01:07 AM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: Full Court; american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; ...
"It's the outward, visible symbol of something that's happening internally," Shelton said.


"Remember that thou art dust and unto dust thou shalt return".

Ecumenical ping!

10 posted on 03/01/2006 11:03:44 AM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: NYer
Ecumenical ping!

But do you think that's good? After all, one group has a woman preacher.

11 posted on 03/01/2006 11:06:08 AM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: Full Court
This is Birmingham, Alabama. There was previously not a lot of mixing Baptists with Protestants and/or Catholic traditions.

And then along came ....

and Alabama changed forever. God bless Mother Angelica!

12 posted on 03/01/2006 11:09:05 AM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: Full Court
Our Lady Queen of the Universe Catholic Church

That's a mouthful of a name for a church.
13 posted on 03/01/2006 11:13:44 AM PST by JamesP81
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To: Full Court
But do you think that's good? After all, one group has a woman preacher.

Not sure what they mean by 'service', do you?

14 posted on 03/01/2006 11:15:08 AM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: Full Court
John the Baptist, who [...] wore sackcloth and ashes.

He did?

15 posted on 03/01/2006 11:15:39 AM PST by annalex
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To: NYer

Mother Angelica used to come in the card shop where I worked, back in the early 80's. The manager of the store was Catholic and would just about bust a gut when Mother Angelica came in the store. I mean, she was just beside herself.

I, being non religious at the time, sort of got confused between Mother Teresa and Mother Angelica. It all kind of ran together to me. I was far more interested in boys and rock and roll music at the time.

So the next day I told one of our co workers "Oh, by the way, that famous nun, Mother teresa came in yesterday and Mary gave her 50% discounts on everything she bought."

The stunned look on my co workers face will always stay in my memory!!!


16 posted on 03/01/2006 11:27:45 AM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: NYer

Not sure what they mean by service, no. I wonder if the lady preacher will get to participate?

I think, if the truth be known, this is more of an advancement of an intra-racial movement than a religious one.

Not that anything is wrong with that.


17 posted on 03/01/2006 11:29:39 AM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: JamesP81

When I was a kid in Catechism class, we used to make up names for churches, like: "Our Lady of Perpetual Motion", "Our Lady of the Pyrrhic Victory", "Our Lady of Bingo", etc.


18 posted on 03/01/2006 11:38:54 AM PST by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: Full Court

Yep they are liberal former SBC. They are now affiliated with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

http://www.fellowshipofthevalley.org/aboutus.html

Fellowship of the Valley is a Baptist faith community with an ecumenical perspective. Our current strategic partners are Shades Crest Baptist Church, the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, and American Baptist Churches (USA).

Baptist Church of the Covenant

http://www.bcoc.net/home.shtml

Baptist Church of the Covenant exists
To worship God.
To educate and to learn.
To serve others in the name of Jesus.
To proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ.
To welcome all who seek Christ.
To promote justice.
To love one another.


19 posted on 03/01/2006 11:39:10 AM PST by CajunConservative (Don't Blame Me, I Voted for Jindal.)
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To: Full Court
I have to email this guy and tell him that Baptists are not Protestants

***********

Why is it that you do not consider Baptists to be Protestants?

Baptists

(Greek, baptizein, to baptize).

A Protestant denomination which exists chiefly in English speaking countries and owes its name to its characteristic doctrine and practice regarding baptism.

I. DISTINCTIVE PRINCIPLES

The Baptists consider the Scriptures to be the sufficient and exclusive rule of faith and practice. In the interpretation of them, every individual enjoys unrestricted freedom. No non-Scriptural scheme of doctrines and duty is recognized as authoritative..

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02278a.htm

20 posted on 03/01/2006 11:39:22 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham
Why is it that you do not consider Baptists to be Protestants?

Cardinal Hosius (Catholic, 1524), President of the Council of Trent:

"Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112, 113.)

The "twelve hundred years" were the years preceding the Reformation in which Rome persecuted Baptists with the most cruel persecution thinkable.

Sir Isaac Newton:

"The Baptists are the only body of known Christians that have never symbolized with Rome."

Mosheim (Lutheran):

"Before the rise of Luther and Calvin, there lay secreted in almost all the countries of Europe persons who adhered tenaciously to the principles of modern Dutch Baptists."

Edinburg Cyclopedia (Presbyterian):

"It must have already occurred to our readers that the Baptists are the same sect of Christians that were formerly described as Ana-Baptists. Indeed this seems to have been their leading principle from the time of Tertullian to the present time." Tertullian was born just fifty years after the death of the Apostle John.

21 posted on 03/01/2006 11:43:58 AM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: NYer
I didn't know non-catholics could get ashes at a Catholic church, or I'd have gone to one this morning. Is this normal?

I don't know what the deal is with the Episcopal church up the street from me (not that I would have gone there). Not only do they have a female rector, they don't even have a service today. Nothing. Zip. Ash Wednesday, and the place is locked up tighter than Al Gore's wallet.

There's a Coffee House on the 11th, though. They have a sign up for that.:D

22 posted on 03/01/2006 11:47:12 AM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: PzLdr
Hey, we have a breakaway formerly Episcopal church here right along I-75. I mean, it's right on top of the road.

We call it "Our Lady of the Interstate."

23 posted on 03/01/2006 11:47:55 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Full Court
Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112, 113.)

This quote is a fake.

The Baptists you know are a Protestant tradition with roots in England.

24 posted on 03/01/2006 11:50:41 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: hellinahandcart
The deal with the Episcopal church is that they have hardly any members left -- that's why it's locked up tight.

So far as I know (but I'm a pretty new Catholic) there is absolutely no reason why a non-Catholic couldn't receive the ashes on Ash Wednesday. It's not a Sacrament like the Eucharist or Confession (you have to be Catholic to participate in a Catholic Sacrament - it could be hazardous to your spiritual welfare if you take something you don't fully believe in, plus it's a sign of solidarity and assent, which you don't want to do if you're not on board.)

. . . found the answer. You don't have to be Catholic, but you DO have to be a properly baptized Christian (i.e. baptized with water in the name of the Trinity):

Who may receive ashes on Ash Wednesday? May baptized non-Catholics receive ashes, or is such only for Catholics?

The Code of Canon Law, canon 1170 prescribes:

Can. 1170 Blessings which are to be imparted first of all to Catholics, can also be given to catechumens and even to non-Catholics unless there is a prohibition of the Church to the contrary.

This canon is under the section on sacramentals. While we know that non-Catholics cannot have access to Catholic sacraments, except for a just cause under various circumstances, sacramentals may be more widely participated in by others. Ashes are considered by the Church a sacramental. Therefore, the imposition of ashes upon non-Catholics falls under canon 1170.

According to this canon, such blessings may be given to non-Catholics unless prohibited elsewhere by law. There is no such prohibition in liturgical law, but there is a restriction. The Book of Blessings says:

The season of Lent begins with the ancient practice of marking the baptized with ashes as a public and communal sign of penance (no. 1656).

Ashes may be imposed upon baptized non-Catholics, but not unbaptized persons. Persons not yet regenerated through the Sacrament of Baptism cannot, properly speaking, do penance, nor can they share in the “communal” aspect of the sign. Baptism is the gateway to the community of God’s faithful people.

- CUF.ORG - Ash Wednesday questions

25 posted on 03/01/2006 11:54:20 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: hellinahandcart
You should still be able to make the 6 p.m. Imposition of Ashes.

Our church has FIVE services today . . .

26 posted on 03/01/2006 11:55:25 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Full Court

Interesting. I confess I know little about the subject.


27 posted on 03/01/2006 11:58:55 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: PzLdr

"Our Lady of Dormition", which I attended faithfully for two decades (before I started actually going to church).


28 posted on 03/01/2006 12:02:22 PM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: AnAmericanMother

I'm really happy for you, AAM.


29 posted on 03/01/2006 12:03:11 PM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: trisham

Those quotes are from a book called "The Trail of Blood" or something like that. It's like quoting Jack Chick.


30 posted on 03/01/2006 12:05:22 PM PST by Nihil Obstat
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To: hellinahandcart
I'm not going but to one service. . . . < g >

Our choirmaster is so laid back - last Sunday he said, "OK, anybody who wants to sing, show up for the 6 o'clock. We'll see how many show up, then we'll decide what to sing . . . "

Guess we'll see what we get. (Thank goodness I can read music . . . )

31 posted on 03/01/2006 12:05:46 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Full Court; WKB

This is surprising.


I don't think they are Southern Baptists.


32 posted on 03/01/2006 12:06:41 PM PST by dixiechick2000 (There ought to be one day-- just one-- when there is open season on senators. ~~ Will Rogers)
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To: hellinahandcart

Is "Our Lady of Dormition" really a church, or is it like the "Bedsprings United Assembly of God"?


33 posted on 03/01/2006 12:07:25 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother

LOL, no, it was a joke name. Like "St. Mattress of the Springs."


34 posted on 03/01/2006 12:09:30 PM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: Campion
Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112, 113.)

This quote is a fake.

************

Is this what you mean?

PART I. Cardinal Hosius and that infamous "statement":

Is it genuine?

The statement reads as follows:

"Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112, 113.)" Quoted in the "Trail of Blood" by J. Carroll.

Does this statement exist in his complete works? No.

The complete works of Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius were published in two volumes in 1584 in Cologne, under the title "Opera Omnia". The complete title reads as follows:

D.STANISLAI HOSII, S R E CARDINALIS, MAIORIS POENITENTIARII; ET EPISCOPI VARMIENSIS

"Opera Omnia in Duos divisa tomos, quorum primus ab ipso auctore plurimus subinde in locis, integris & dimidijs paginis sic auctus & recognitus, ut novum opus fere censeri possit. Secundum autem totus novus, nuncque primus typis excusus."

Coloniae

Apud Maternum Cholinum

Anno M. D. L XXXIIII

The purported statement is nowhere to be found in the letters of Cardinal Hosius

There is no section titled "Apud Opera" among Hosius‘ complete works. And there is no letter of that name. So the reference "Letters, Apud Opera" is apparently meaningless. Similarly, I could find no publication of his with this title.

I decided to check all of Cardinal Hosius‘ letters for references to the Anabaptists. The section in his "Opera Omnia" entitled "Liber Epistelarum" contains all of Cardinal Hosius‘ letters, 277 in total, written in Latin. I have read through all of these letters, and in only 12 of them (letters XXVIII, XLI, XLIII, CV, CXVI, CXXVIII, CXXIX, CXXXIV, CL, CLVII, CLVIII, and CLX) is there any mention of the Anabaptists. In none of them is to be found the statement cited at the top. To all intents and purposes, this statement appears to be a fake...

http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/forgeries/hosius.html

35 posted on 03/01/2006 12:16:14 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: hellinahandcart
Yeah, if it were a real church name it would probably be "The Dormition of Our Lady". . . .

The Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Damascus is "The Cathedral of the Dormition of Our Lady".

36 posted on 03/01/2006 12:17:52 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Full Court
Great story! You should read the book Raymond Arroyo wrote about her. She was determined to go to Alabama and nothing would hold her back. Raising the money to build the monastery and shrine is nothing short of a miracle. Great book! Couldn't put it down.


37 posted on 03/01/2006 12:18:05 PM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: Nihil Obstat
It's like quoting Jack Chick.

*************

So it seems. :)

Jack Chick

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jack Thomas Chick (born April 13, 1924) of Chick Publications is a comic book artist and publisher. He is known for his controversial comic-style tracts (informally known as Chick Tracts) and larger comic books for the purpose of Christian evangelism from a fundamentalist point of view. Chick is an Independent Baptist, a premillennial dispensationalist, follower of the King James Only Movement, and strongly anti-Catholic.

38 posted on 03/01/2006 12:19:37 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: PzLdr
When I was a kid in Catechism class, we used to make up names for churches, like: "Our Lady of Perpetual Motion", "Our Lady of the Pyrrhic Victory", "Our Lady of Bingo", etc.

You must read this book!

Chapters include - Questions we didn't have the nerve to ask, What to give nuns for Christmas, Father 'What a Waste' ... the book is hillarious!

39 posted on 03/01/2006 12:24:10 PM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: NYer

"God bless Mother Angelica!"

Amen and right on!


40 posted on 03/01/2006 12:26:26 PM PST by Convert from ECUSA (The "religion of peace" is actually the religion of constant rage and riots.)
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To: NYer

This is a really funny book!


41 posted on 03/01/2006 12:28:28 PM PST by Convert from ECUSA (The "religion of peace" is actually the religion of constant rage and riots.)
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To: hellinahandcart
I didn't know non-catholics could get ashes at a Catholic church, or I'd have gone to one this morning. Is this normal?

It's non sacramental - no reason why you couldn't receive ashes at a Catholic Church.

42 posted on 03/01/2006 12:28:46 PM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: NYer

Be very very careful when you say "Father What a Waste" there are some who will go nuts on you, even if you're just quoting a book or the Italian Press. ;-)


43 posted on 03/01/2006 12:34:49 PM PST by Jaded (The truth shall set you free, but lying to yourself turns you French.)
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To: Full Court
An ecumenical service at 6:30 tonight at Our Lady Queen of the Universe Catholic Church will include participation by three Baptist churches - Baptist Church of the Covenant and Trinity Baptist, both on Southside, and Tabernacle.

"For us to go to the Catholic church, that's something new as Baptists," said the Rev. Sarah Jackson Shelton, the Covenant pastor. "It unites us as the bigger church, and with a larger tradition. ... It's being part of a sacred story that belongs to all of us."

Wonderful!

44 posted on 03/01/2006 12:37:41 PM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Jaded; Domestic Church
Be very very careful when you say "Father What a Waste" there are some who will go nuts on you, even if you're just quoting a book or the Italian Press. ;-)

Can I post visual aids instead?


45 posted on 03/01/2006 12:38:19 PM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

Hey, I know that church! I travel to Atlanta fairly often, and like to stop by the "OK Cafe" to eat sometimes... :)

I think it's a beautiful church building - the kind you look at and think "they don't make 'em like that anymore..." assuming you don't realize that it's just a few years old... :)

So what kind of church is it? I've been wondering about that.


Fletcher J


46 posted on 03/01/2006 12:39:32 PM PST by Fletcher J
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To: NYer
" Can I post visual aids instead? "

LOL! You're "naughty"! Heeheehee!
47 posted on 03/01/2006 12:40:35 PM PST by Convert from ECUSA (The "religion of peace" is actually the religion of constant rage and riots.)
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To: AnAmericanMother
. . . found the answer. You don't have to be Catholic, but you DO have to be a properly baptized Christian

Cool! Thanks.

48 posted on 03/01/2006 12:41:38 PM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: swmobuffalo

I caught that too!


49 posted on 03/01/2006 12:43:29 PM PST by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or get out of the Way!)
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To: Full Court
Revelations

How many are there? :)
50 posted on 03/01/2006 12:43:49 PM PST by armydoc
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