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[Catholic] Tradition catching on with Baptists [Ecumenical Ash Wed. Service]
Birmingham News ^ | Wednesday, March 01, 2006 | Greg Garrison

Posted on 03/01/2006 10:35:38 AM PST by Full Court

Tradition catching on with Baptists

Protestants begin to take part in Ash Wednesday for its theological lessons
Wednesday, March 01, 2006
GREG GARRISON
News staff writer

It used to be that Baptists had nothing to do with Ash Wednesday, a liturgical holiday they associated with Catholics. No more.

"It's a good way of putting the congregation in the right mind-set to prepare for Easter," said the Rev. Christopher Hamlin, pastor of Tabernacle Baptist Church in Smithfield.

An ecumenical service at 6:30 tonight at Our Lady Queen of the Universe Catholic Church will include participation by three Baptist churches - Baptist Church of the Covenant and Trinity Baptist, both on Southside, and Tabernacle.

"For us to go to the Catholic church, that's something new as Baptists," said the Rev. Sarah Jackson Shelton, the Covenant pastor. "It unites us as the bigger church, and with a larger tradition. ... It's being part of a sacred story that belongs to all of us."

Other Baptist churches observe the tradition on their own. Fellowship of the Valley, for example, will have a service at 7 tonight at the Lake Cyrus Clubhouse in Hoover.

"It's an appreciation for the symbols of our faith, an opportunity to see, feel and touch those symbols," said the fellowship's pastor, the Rev. Michial Lewis.

Lewis said the Reformation of the 1500s, when Martin Luther led a reaction against abuses in the Roman Catholic Church, resulted in rejection of traditions such as Lent by many Protestants.

"We do emphasize that our relationship with Christ is through faith alone, and the reformers wanted to avoid the appearance that we gain acceptance with God through rituals or symbols," Lewis said. "Now, people can understand the difference. These symbols come alongside as holy reminders."

Robert Hodgson, dean of the Nida Institute for Biblical Scholarship at the American Bible Society in New York City, said many evangelicals are beginning to see the biblical roots of Lent. "Jesus goes into the wilderness for 40 days and disciplines himself with fasting and prayer."

The 40 days of Lent are preparation for Easter, when Christians celebrate the resurrection of Jesus. Easter is April 16 this year for more than a billion Western Christians and April 23 for Eastern Orthodox.

Baptists are taking an increased interest in the liturgical season for its theological lessons, Shelton said. "It's important for us to take the opportunity to confess our sin."

During many Christian observances of Ash Wednesday, the minister rubs ashes on the foreheads of congregants and says, "You are dust and to dust you shall return," quoting a verse from Genesis.

The wearing of ashes is prominent in the New Testament with John the Baptist, who called for repentance and wore sackcloth and ashes.

"It's the outward, visible symbol of something that's happening internally," Shelton said.

"We too will return to ashes," she said. "There's life beyond that, and hope beyond what we experience in this life."

E-mail: ggarrison@bhamnews.com

© 2006 The Birmingham News

© 2006 al.com All Rights Reserved.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Eastern Religions; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Humor; Islam; Judaism; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Orthodox Christian; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Religion & Science; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: ashwednesday; baptist; baptistprotestants; catholic; ecumenical; liberal; protestant; womenpreachers
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To: Full Court

Where is the biblical instruction for preaching from a pulpit? More to the point where is the instruction to preach from a Bible on that Pulpit? If we go by the New Testaments we should be reading from the scrolls of the Torah.


241 posted on 03/04/2006 7:50:24 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: jude24

People love to quote "judge not lest ye be judged" but neglect to quote the full chapter (start particularly with verse 15). Note, Jesus himself permits Non-self-righteous judgment. As a matter of fact, we are called to it. I'm no better than you. But we all have a right to be fruit inspectors, just not self righteously. He didn't mean no judgment period- else, by judging the person you wrote the post to you yourself are violating the very command you are trying to point out.

Matthew 7
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.


242 posted on 03/04/2006 8:19:05 PM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger
eople love to quote "judge not lest ye be judged" but neglect to quote the full chapter

I know Mat. 5 as well as you did - and I did not cite it. I cited Rom. 14:4, 10 - who are you to judge another man's servant? When we see sin, yes, we're supposed to discern that it is sin; it is forbidden to us, however, to even criticize the man who worships God in a way we don't like. Among the issues forbidden to judge in Rom. 14 is rituals that some observe, but others do not.

(Also, long cut-and-pastes of entire Biblical chapters is not useful. Pinpoint citations make for a tighter, cleaner argument.)

243 posted on 03/04/2006 8:23:53 PM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: ventana; RobbyS

You have shown a few examples where ashes are used as an expression of repentence in the OT. You have not shown at all where making a mark on ones head with ashes is anything Scriptural.

However, I have shown you that making a mark on the forehead is a pagan tradition and practice.


244 posted on 03/04/2006 8:30:48 PM PST by Full Court (Baptist History now at www.baptistbookshelf.com)
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To: jude24; ventana; RobbyS
When Catholics put that ashen mark on their head, it is a sign of repentance from their sins.

Matthew 6:2
 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee,
as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets,
that they may have glory of men.
Verily I say unto you,
They have their reward.

Matthew 6:5
 ¶And when thou prayest,
thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.
Verily I say unto you,
They have their reward.

Matthew 6:16  ¶Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites,
of a sad countenance:
for they disfigure their faces,
that they may appear unto men to fast.
Verily I say unto you,
They have their reward.

245 posted on 03/04/2006 8:35:16 PM PST by Full Court (Baptist History now at www.baptistbookshelf.com)
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To: jude24
Among the issues forbidden to judge in Rom. 14 is rituals that some observe, but others do not.

Actually that passage is only about eating meat. It doesn't talk about any rituals.

246 posted on 03/04/2006 8:47:17 PM PST by Full Court (Baptist History now at www.baptistbookshelf.com)
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To: Full Court

Wouldn't the words that Jesus use apply to John the Baptist as well? Wasn't disfigured on Ash Wednesday. Just a smudge on the forehead, about as "disfiguring" as wearing a cross around the neck. Jesus also said something about not hiding one's light under a basket. The ashes symbolize our identity That they invite the scorn of people like you is expected.


247 posted on 03/04/2006 8:49:09 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: jude24
Jesus Christ did not make you the judge of other Christians. Who are you to judge another man's servant?

if that's the case, and you really believe that, who are you to judge me?

248 posted on 03/04/2006 8:49:14 PM PST by Full Court (Baptist History now at www.baptistbookshelf.com)
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To: Full Court
Actually that passage is only about eating meat. It doesn't talk about any rituals.

It is much broader than just eating meat. It explicitly includes observance of holy days (and, by inference, the rituals that made those holy days unique).

You need to repent of your narrow-minded, hypocritical judgment of your Catholic brothers.

249 posted on 03/04/2006 8:50:01 PM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: Full Court
if that's the case, and you really believe that, who are you to judge me?

I haven't judged you - I have said that you have exceeded the scope of your authority in judging other Christians. Your spiritual state is a question above my pay grade. Your actions are self-evident.

250 posted on 03/04/2006 8:52:10 PM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: jude24
It explicitly includes observance of holy days

No, it only uses that as an example. And there is no inference of any rituals.

The true church never used or co-opted any pagan rituals such as making a mark of Shiva on the forehead.

And I am a Christian, not a catholic. So no more than they consider me a sister in their faith, so I consider them brothers in mine.

251 posted on 03/04/2006 8:55:56 PM PST by Full Court (Baptist History now at www.baptistbookshelf.com)
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To: jude24

Yeah, I knew you didn't really believe what you said about not judging.

Carry on little one.


252 posted on 03/04/2006 8:56:38 PM PST by Full Court (Baptist History now at www.baptistbookshelf.com)
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To: Full Court

That's been debunked already. It was not a Hindu ritual, rather an Indian one. I do believe the woman was a Catholic.


253 posted on 03/04/2006 9:01:53 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: Full Court
The true church never used or co-opted any pagan rituals such as making a mark of Shiva on the forehead.

Who said anything about a mark of Shiva?

254 posted on 03/04/2006 9:01:54 PM PST by Titanites (Sola scriptura leads to solo scriptura; both are man-made traditions)
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To: Full Court
Carry on little one.

Where does the Bible tell you to you, as a Christian, to act like an ass?

255 posted on 03/04/2006 9:03:24 PM PST by Titanites (Sola scriptura leads to solo scriptura; both are man-made traditions)
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To: Full Court
The true church never used or co-opted any pagan rituals such as making a mark of Shiva on the forehead.

The mark of Shiva? Why don't you ask the Catholics what it symbolizes...? The fact that Hindus have an analogous rite does not disqualify it. Or, is baptism disqualified because the ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, Mithratic cult, and the Japanese all had baptism ceremonies?

Just because pagans have an analog doesn't mean the Christian rite is derived from paganism.

256 posted on 03/04/2006 9:04:01 PM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: Full Court
It's certainly not a Biblical or Christian practice to make a mark with ash on the forehead.

1) I asked you what was Pagan, not whether it's found in the Bible.

2) As other posters have shown, there is a parallel to the Catholic practices of ashes/repentance in the Old Testament.

3) Even if not something found in the Bible, what specifically is Unchristian about a practice that calls us to repentance and back to Christ?

Just because something is not specifically in the Bible, does not make it an unChristian practice.
257 posted on 03/04/2006 9:04:19 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die

Jeremiah 10:2  Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen


258 posted on 03/04/2006 9:05:04 PM PST by Full Court (Baptist History now at www.baptistbookshelf.com)
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To: Full Court

Out-of-context prooftexts prove only that you know how to use a concordance.


259 posted on 03/04/2006 9:05:54 PM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: Titanites

I'll have to look that up, give me a few minutes. :-)

2 Peter 2:16  But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.


260 posted on 03/04/2006 9:07:18 PM PST by Full Court (Baptist History now at www.baptistbookshelf.com)
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