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(Protestant) Minister Who Had Near-Death Episode Believes In Purgatory
Spirit Daily ^ | 2005 | Michael Brown

Posted on 03/08/2006 7:22:57 PM PST by churchillbuff

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Pell and Teller on BS had very interesting and even scientific facts about NDE. Scientists have done some interesting experiments to recreate the conditions that cause the brain to shut down.


51 posted on 03/09/2006 6:11:04 AM PST by xusafflyer (Mexifornian by birth, Hoosier by choice.)
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To: RoadTest
Satan's religions appeal to the mind of man, but not the Mind of God. Purgatory is a slap in the face to Jesus who paid in full for the sins of those whose trust is in Him.

So you believe that these two people would be treated exactly the same:

1) A Mother Theresa type - spends their entire life helping others, sacrificing themselves for others, never hurting anyone and believes that Jesus is their saviour. This person dies and goes straight to heaven.
2) Adolph Hitler, seconds before his death, expresses his beleif that Jesus is his saviour. He dies and goes straight to heaven.

You really believe there is no difference between these two and they will both go directly to heaven.

Then why on earth should anyone be good? Why not be selfish and live only for pleasure - as long as you get "saved" ten seconds before you die?

That makes no sense to me at all.

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?"

"If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God."

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

"And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."

So, how many times does the bible have to tell you - faith itself is not enough?

52 posted on 03/09/2006 6:24:29 AM PST by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: churchillbuff

Protestant ministers usually can skip purgatory. They're allowed to marry...


53 posted on 03/09/2006 6:35:54 AM PST by dangus
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To: churchillbuff; HarleyD; Alex Murphy; rdb3; Dr. Eckleburg; nobdysfool
I had a long talk with a patient of mine who had not one, but two near death experiences.

During her first one, she was a Christian and saw the stereotypical light, warmth, etc.

At the time of her second one she was in a well known faith group. She relates going to hell. Interestingly, she is still in that pseudo-Christian faith group.

54 posted on 03/09/2006 6:42:09 AM PST by Gamecock (“We don’t preach the gospel clear enough for the non-elect to reject it.” ((Unknown))
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To: ExcursionGuy84
I do as well. There is No Other NAME by which we are Saved.

I don't know what you think that has to do with purgatory, since everyone in purgatory is already saved by the Blood of Christ. They are merely completing their sanctification so they can enter into the presence of an utterly righteous and perfect God, because (as Scripture says) nothing unclean can enter heaven.

55 posted on 03/09/2006 6:46:01 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: nmh
Well it's to bad the Bible says otherwise: 2Cor.5:8 [8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Again, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

The verse doesn't say that, sorry. Souls in hell are "absent from the body" but are certainly not "present with the Lord". Paul writes that he wishes to be (a) absent from the body and (b) present with the Lord; not that (a) necessarily implies (b).

Scripture doesn't do you much good if you read it carelessly and shoehorn it into your preconceived ideas of what it ought to say. Protestants consistently accuse Catholics of doing that, but I find that Protestants do it every bit as much or more.

56 posted on 03/09/2006 6:49:20 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Ready2go
How would you explain away Pam's NDE?

You sent this rather long and detailed reply to me yet I did not ask this question. Be sure you send it to the person who asked the question so they can benefit from the information.
57 posted on 03/09/2006 7:00:59 AM PST by msnimje (SAMMY for SANDY --- THAT IS WHAT I CALL A GOOD TRADE!!!)
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Comment #58 Removed by Moderator

To: RoadTest
The "works" James referred to in his epistle are the good works we have been saved unto, not pagan rites and superstitions like "masses" and "sacraments, both of which are abomination to God!

You mean according to your interpretation - which must, of course be correct because.......you say so. I'm glad that you know exactly what God meant when he inspired the bible. Too bad that billions of others are wrong and only you are right.

"Judge not lest ye be judged."

59 posted on 03/09/2006 7:15:15 AM PST by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: the invisib1e hand
wow, imagine that. dying and waking up in New York City.

"New York is a hellhole! And you know how I feel about hellholes!"
-Homer Simpson

60 posted on 03/09/2006 7:42:12 AM PST by Alex Murphy (Colossians 4:5)
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To: RobbyS
Protestant Christianity split off from the Latin Church. I doubt that many of them are even aware of the Eastern churches, or that they and Rome share much of the same beliefs.

Which isn't exactly a glowing testimony to the Eastern churches' evangelism efforts....

61 posted on 03/09/2006 7:45:35 AM PST by Alex Murphy (Colossians 4:5)
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To: Irish Rose

"Hmm. Anyone know when this doctrine first showed up, or was made official by the church? It isn't found in Scripture."

Like heck it isn't! (Heck is for people who don't believe in Gosh.)
The word purgatory is a Latin word, meaning cleansing. Like the Latin word "Trinity," the WORD doesn't exist in the bible, but the concept does.

In fact, at Worms, Martin Luther lost a debate wherein it was conclusively proven that the Books of Hebrews, the letters of Peter, Revelations, and Maccabees all refer to atonement. Luther responses by claiming that these books were not scriptural. Other Protestants movements couldn't break the Tradition of including Hebrews and Revelations; they were too well known. Maccabees, being a more obscure Old Testament book, was easier to cover up, especially since the Jews had rejected the book in AD 70 -- after Christ -- because it explicitly foretold the Resurrection.

The key thing is that Christ's atonement saves our souls from ETERNAL condemnation. That doesn't mean we don't have to live with the TEMPORAL suffering caused by our mistakes. If a man is promiscuously homosexual and catches AIDS, being saved saves his ETERNAL soul, but he still suffers the TEMPORAL consequence of the disease he has caught. If a teenage loses his leg pulling stunts on a railroad track, and is saved, it is his ETERNAL soul that is saved. He still deals with the TEMPORAL consequence of having only one leg. And no miracle worker around is going to make him grow another leg.

Likewise, when we sin, WE alienate OURSELVES from God. We know nothing impure can enter Heaven, and our shame holds us back, until we accept total forgiveness. Saints are those who are purified on this earth, and so for some time on earth experience a perfected will. Protestants insist that all who are "saved" are saints. Is that so? Can you command mountains to toss themselves into the sea? How many lepers have you healed? Are you totally without sin? Does your will confirm completely with God's? Even worse is the tendency for some brands of Protestants to establish that nothing they do can be a sin, because they still do it in spite of being saved.

So, let's see where the bible tells us of a place of suffering or incomplete beatific vision (complete spiritual intimacy with God):

Revelations depict saints and martyrs already in Heaven (such as 5:9-14). These are those who have already been made pure by the blood of the lamb (7:5-17). Those who are in Hades are resurrected only later, and they are judged according to their works (20:11-15). Are all the judged condemned? No! There exists a book of life (20:12), and only those who are not found in the book of life are condemned (20:15). THe "servants and saints" are rewarded, while the destroyers are destroyed (11:19). On that day, the Earth will be destroyed by fire. Paul writes that many will survive, but their works will be destroyed. They will survive, as one who passes through fire (1 Corinthians 3:13-15).

In 2 Maccabees, the Jews were promised that the faithful would not die in battle, but many who fought valiantly for the Lord did die. The comrades of the dead found that the dead had worn amulets, idolatry. They were so aggrieved for those they loved, that they atoned for the dead by offering up the loot from the war to the temple. "Thus he made atonement for the dead" (12:38-46). It was with this loot that the Temple was rededicated on December 25, a feast attended by Jesus (John 10:22). And when Jesus died, the Maccabees' altar and curtain were destroyed (Matthew 27:50-52).

There was no word for purgatory in the bible, simply because the Jews would not have comprehended such a word. They knew only of the grave (Sheol, translated to Hades for the Greeks). But was Hades necessarily a permanent place? Did only the eternally condemned suffer any time in Hades? Not at all! In fact, we are told that the gates of Hades will not withstand the church (Matthew 16:18). (This is unfortunately confusingly transalted as "prevail." How do gates "prevail?" The word means to "resist being thrown down.") The GATES to Hades, which enclose it, will be torn down by the church! It's a prison raid! It's right after Jesus tells Peter the church will raid the prison of Hades that Peter is given the KEYS to Heaven! (16:19) (There are other, very significant meanings to the symbolism.)

Also, the notion of a PRISON as a TEMPORAL dwelling in Hades occurs many times in the New Testament.


62 posted on 03/09/2006 7:56:49 AM PST by dangus
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To: Irish Rose

...but to answer your question more precisely, there are first-century tombstones bearing prayers and commitments to atonement for the dead, right under the still-living apostles' noses in Jerusalem and Antioch. If they had a problem with the practice, it's awfully strange that there is no biblical record of their opposition to it.

So the answer is that the doctrine was practiced in the early church in the time of the apostles exactly where the apostles preached.


63 posted on 03/09/2006 8:00:43 AM PST by dangus
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To: RoadTest
not pagan rites and superstitions like "masses" and "sacraments, both of which are abomination to God!

I can't let that statement go by without a comment. The first and most important sacrament is Baptism. So I guess you better tell John the Baptist and Jesus that they performed an "abomination to God".

And if you think that the celebration of the Mass is another "abomination" - you better inform Jesus, who after changing the bread and wine into his body and blood, said, "Do this in memory of me"

I guess he must have just been joking!

64 posted on 03/09/2006 8:05:50 AM PST by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: little jeremiah

Ping


65 posted on 03/09/2006 8:07:15 AM PST by Sam's Army (Another unsuccessful attempt to refrain from posting)
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To: churchillbuff

BTTT!

Maybe he will now become a Catholic priest?


66 posted on 03/09/2006 8:08:37 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Tokra

"not pagan rites and superstitions like "masses" and "sacraments, both of which are abomination to God!

I can't let that statement go by without a comment. The first and most important sacrament is Baptism. So I guess you better tell John the Baptist and Jesus that they performed an "abomination to God".

And if you think that the celebration of the Mass is another "abomination" - you better inform Jesus, who after changing the bread and wine into his body and blood, said, "Do this in memory of me"

I guess he must have just been joking!"

Just because Jesus baptised doesn't make the artificial, made-up "mass" legit. And when he said do this in memory of me, He meant just that. He didn't say eat me! Much of the Bible is alegorical. "I am the door" is a good example.


67 posted on 03/09/2006 8:09:20 AM PST by RoadTest ("- - a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people." - Richard Henry Lee, 1786)
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To: Mount Athos

**
the main reason why he was on the road to hell was lack of love, pride, and disbelief.**

I think we can all work on these three!


68 posted on 03/09/2006 8:11:26 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Celtic Conservative

"And heaven will be filled with some that you didn't think deserved to be there. Just remember that it's not your call, and the position of supreme being is filled."

When someone CLEARLY contradicts the Bible, it doesn't take amental giant to figure out they won't be in heaven. I dare say that Hitler, Pol Pot and others will be in hell too. I have confidence in God to make THAT call. I'm glad that He will be the one doing just that.


69 posted on 03/09/2006 8:12:04 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people believe in Intelligent Design (God))
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To: RoadTest

Actually -- no -- that is a Protestant belief. If you look hard enough, you will find Purgatory in the Bible. Not the word, Purgatory, but references to it.

Even St. Paul referred to Purgatory!


70 posted on 03/09/2006 8:15:37 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Tokra

"I'm glad that you know exactly what God meant when he inspired the bible. Too bad that billions of others are wrong and only you are right.

"Judge not lest ye be judged.""

God didn't cause his word to be written and preserved for us if He hadn't thought we could interpret it. The Spirit who wrote it interprets it to believers in Jesus Christ.

You're on the right track with the statement: "billions of others are wrong ". "Broad is the way that leads to destruction (Jesus said) and many there be that go that way"

Jesus also said, "Judge a righteous judgement". You make hundreds of judgements every day and they'd better be good ones in some cases, such as waiting to drive onto a highway if there's a double-botton gravel truck coming. Judgement: "How far away? What is its closing speed?.

Judging is part of our lives.


71 posted on 03/09/2006 8:17:07 AM PST by RoadTest ("- - a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people." - Richard Henry Lee, 1786)
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To: Irish Rose

Yes, references to Purgatory, a place of purification are in the Bible.


72 posted on 03/09/2006 8:18:45 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: All
Straight Answers: What Is Purgatory Like?
73 posted on 03/09/2006 8:19:41 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Celtic Conservative
You know if some people would take the time to read what He states, my comment wouldn't inflame anyone. Clearly hell will be a crowded place.

Matt.7:14

[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I have no doubt that who will be in heaven will deserve to be there. This guy, is preaching another Gospel that CLEARLY in NOT in agreement with the Bible. He is misleading others. He SHOULD know better than to speak lies. Do I think this pleases God? NO! Will he be rewarded and in heaven for this? Doubtful. Other verses definitely condemn this kind of stuff.
74 posted on 03/09/2006 8:21:42 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people believe in Intelligent Design (God))
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To: nickcarraway; sandyeggo; Siobhan; Lady In Blue; NYer; american colleen; Pyro7480; livius; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

75 posted on 03/09/2006 8:21:57 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Must have felt that ol pitchfork poking him in the rump.


76 posted on 03/09/2006 8:23:13 AM PST by pissant
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To: RoadTest
Jesus also said, "Judge a righteous judgement". You make hundreds of judgements every day and they'd better be good ones in some cases, such as waiting to drive onto a highway if there's a double-botton gravel truck coming. Judgement: "How far away? What is its closing speed?. Judging is part of our lives.

Of course it is - but not judging whether someone goes to heaven or hell. God reserves the right to do that. That's not what we are here for. You have no right to claim that Mother Theresa is in hell, just because you are obviously anti-Catholic.

BTW, you seem to have evaded my original question:

Do you honestly believe that someone can be as evil and cruel as possible for 75 years and then be "saved" in the last ten seconds of their life and still be treated the same as someone who led a life of self-sacrifice and doing for others? I still find that very hard to believe. If what you say is true, then what is the incentive to be good?

77 posted on 03/09/2006 8:30:26 AM PST by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: RoadTest
And when he said do this in memory of me, He meant just that. He didn't say eat me!

John 6:48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

... around Passover, exactly a year before the Last Supper.

Much of the Bible is alegorical. "I am the door" is a good example.

That's metaphor, not allegory. "Eat my flesh and drink my blood" is not metaphor, and it's not allegory either.

78 posted on 03/09/2006 8:35:02 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Campion

And don't forget what came next:

John 6:60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.


79 posted on 03/09/2006 8:48:12 AM PST by Eepsy
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To: Sam's Army

Thanks, have to run but I'll read this later.

Makes sense and agrees with the Vedas as well.


80 posted on 03/09/2006 8:57:26 AM PST by little jeremiah (Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil. CS.Lewis)
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To: RadioAstronomer

We had discussed this previously -- look at the post I'm responding to; I believe you will find it to be interesting reading.

Another anectdotal datum, I know. But an interesting read nonetheless.


81 posted on 03/09/2006 8:57:49 AM PST by L,TOWM (Liberals, The Other White Meat)
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To: Campion

"That's metaphor, not allegory. "Eat my flesh and drink my blood" is not metaphor, and it's not allegory either."

And believe me, it's not literal, either.


82 posted on 03/09/2006 9:13:04 AM PST by RoadTest ("- - a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people." - Richard Henry Lee, 1786)
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To: The Worthless Miracle

Also, God said he didn't work hard enough for Social Justice and against Global Warming.


83 posted on 03/09/2006 9:15:50 AM PST by Flavius Josephus (The only good muslim is a bad muslim)
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To: RoadTest

I suspect had you worshipped in a Jewish temple with Jesus you would also have observed "pagan rites" and ceremonies very similar to modern masses. Sad that you scorn as an "abomination" what which you obviously have not studied. Presumably you would also condemn the worship rituals of Judaism. One observer has commented that the Catholic Church has many resemblances to a synagogue, but with Jesus.

Your mindset reminds me that...the term "abomination" was also once used by men who refused to allow their wives ether during childbirth.


84 posted on 03/09/2006 9:21:39 AM PST by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: Tokra

"Do you honestly believe that someone can be as evil and cruel as possible for 75 years and then be "saved" in the last ten seconds of their life and still be treated the same as someone who led a life of self-sacrifice and doing for others? I still find that very hard to believe. If what you say is true, then what is the incentive to be good?"

Sure. Read: (II Chronicles 33:12) how God forgave King Manasseh, who had sacrificed his children to Satan, among all the other things he did leading Israel astray.

There's no sin so great that God won't forgive. But He does not honor lately-invented rites like masses and sacraments.
Those are human inventions that fly in the face of The Word Of God.

As for my judging, let me tell you what God has said "The spiritual man judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man".


85 posted on 03/09/2006 9:25:33 AM PST by RoadTest ("- - a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people." - Richard Henry Lee, 1786)
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To: Tokra
So you believe that these two people would be treated exactly the same:

1) A Mother Theresa type - spends their entire life helping others, sacrificing themselves for others, never hurting anyone and believes that Jesus is their saviour. This person dies and goes straight to heaven.

2) Adolph Hitler, seconds before his death, expresses his beleif that Jesus is his saviour. He dies and goes straight to heaven.

You really believe there is no difference between these two and they will both go directly to heaven.

Then why on earth should anyone be good? Why not be selfish and live only for pleasure - as long as you get "saved" ten seconds before you die?

That makes no sense to me at all.


Your questions interest me.

FWIW ... these are my thoughts on the subject.

First of all ... scripturally, ... there is a difference in the rewards received ... of those children of God who are more faithful ... and those children of God who are less faithful.

The passage in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 testifies to this ...
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
So ... the scriptures, themselves, testify that all believers will NOT merit the same rewards.

On the further issue of salvation itself, ... I tend to see it as a package deal.

If one is a child of God, ... then one will exhibit faith and works, ... and, not only that, ... but I believe that one will exhibit an overweening degree of desire ... for the things of God (i.e. what God has for you).

This is what I believe will ultimately keep many from coming to faith ... they simply do not desire the things of God.

This was Lucifer/Satan's issue, after all.

He preferred his own ambitions ... to the gifts (of position and service) ... which God had provided to him.

Therefore, ... he rebelled ... and fell.

When we look at these hypotheticals ... such as the possibility of a believing Hitler ... I have a hard time seeing it.

It certainly doesn't appear that Hitler had any desire for the things of God (i.e. what God would have provided to him).

So he rebelled, as well ... and his rebellion was made manifest in his attack upon a people of God (the Jews).

OTOH, I have no problem believing that a Mother Teresa clearly demonstrated a true desire for the things of God, ... and that she was, thus, a good candidate for receiving faith in God and Christ, ... and for performing comensurate good works.

It is true that we cannot see the hearts of men, ... but it is also true that we can see their actions.

Our eyes may fool us in some cases, ... but, in many cases, ... we can see the heart ... through the actions it spawns.

Nothing doctinaire ... just a rambling.

86 posted on 03/09/2006 9:29:17 AM PST by Quester
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To: nmh

To be absent from the body is to be present in eternity. Yes, the Lord is there. But so also are other states of existence, and Beings who are NOT with the Lord.

If you recite the Apostle's Creed, you state as confession of faith that after his own death, Jesus, "descended into hell..after three days he ascended into heaven". Christ Himself did not immediately ascend at the moment of His body's death..

Note that "hell" is translated from early terms more synonymous with Hades, a place of punishment based on judgement, but lacking the eternal damnation of Hell which will be brought about at the final judgement..

As one author (not a "fool" I think) has said:

"...while the notion of purgatory is foreign to Scripture, yet believers should not take lightly the possibility of great and painful losses at the judgment seat of Christ, (1 Cor. 3:11-15; 2 Cor. 5:10). None of us should presume that any of us shall enter heaven without a thorough evaluation and full disclosure of the actual quality and content of our lives since we first believed."
http://www.ldolphin.org/descend.html


87 posted on 03/09/2006 9:30:45 AM PST by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: silverleaf

"Presumably you would also condemn the worship rituals of Judaism. One observer has commented that the Catholic Church has many resemblances to a synagogue, but with Jesus.

Yes - that's a mixture, and a little leaven leavens the whole lump."

God tore up the only religion He ever recognized on the day Christ died. The veil of the temple was torn in two, signifying that the last obstacle to coming unto the Father was now removed.

Jesus never taught religion - he was constantly emphasizing a direct relationship with His Father. And He said He was the only way to Him. That's why all religion is invalid.

Men try to intersperse themselves between man and God. Jesus said just the opposite. "You have one Father, and He is in heaven". "There is one mediator between God and man; the man Christ Jesus".


88 posted on 03/09/2006 9:32:07 AM PST by RoadTest ("- - a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people." - Richard Henry Lee, 1786)
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To: dangus

"there are first-century tombstones bearing prayers and commitments to atonement for the dead"

Just because they were doing it in the first century doesn't make it right. There were a lot of things being done wrong by Christians and Paul addressed some of them but I don't think it would have been possible for him to have addressed them all.


89 posted on 03/09/2006 9:34:19 AM PST by RoadTest ("- - a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people." - Richard Henry Lee, 1786)
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To: Salvation

"If you look hard enough, you will find Purgatory in the Bible. Not the word, Purgatory, but references to it.

Even St. Paul referred to Purgatory!"

That's absolutely unfounded.


90 posted on 03/09/2006 9:35:42 AM PST by RoadTest ("- - a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people." - Richard Henry Lee, 1786)
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To: RoadTest
He does not honor lately-invented rites like masses and sacraments

I will admit that at mass, we no longer slaughter sheep and doves and kill the fatted calf. Scripturally one could argue that God appreciated those things and occasionally demanded them. Ah, for the good ol' days of traditional rituals. But mass (I assume you really mean, the Eucharist, or "communion") does reenact a very significant ritual that orginated as a Passover seder meal now known as "The Last Supper". Hence the use of unleavened wafers of bread such as the Jews prepared when running for their lives form Pharoah, and a reading of the scripture of the words of Christ as he shared it with His disciples.
91 posted on 03/09/2006 9:38:14 AM PST by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: the invisib1e hand

finding himself with a group of hideous beings who attacked him as they led him to a foggy zone that descended toward "hell."

wow, imagine that. dying and waking up in New York City.

&&
I was thinking more like the Democratic National Convention.


92 posted on 03/09/2006 9:40:47 AM PST by Bigg Red (Never trust Democrats with national security.)
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To: Ready2go

Wow! Fascinating story.


93 posted on 03/09/2006 9:49:31 AM PST by Bigg Red (Never trust Democrats with national security.)
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To: dangus

You waste your time arguing with Catholic haters such as RoadTest appears to be.


94 posted on 03/09/2006 9:58:46 AM PST by Bigg Red (Never trust Democrats with national security.)
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To: RoadTest

It was obvious from Christ's words that He knew his ministry was to be short, that He intended his followers to build a "church" (body of believers, not to be worshipped, but to teach others Who to worship and how)..it is the church that was to continue His Word, and to spread His teachings on Earth. Otherwise, few would be aware of His name and few would be able to profess Him. If this is Christianity, and not "religion" then I don't know what it is.

Matthew 16:
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

As for sacraments, in the Catholic Church (The Church founded by Peter, the Rock), there are 7:
The Seven Sacraments
Baptism
Penance/Reconciliation
Eucharist
Confirmation
Matrimony
Holy Orders
Extremunction or Anointing of the Sick

The Catholic Church says this about the sacraments:

"The great mystery of the union in Christ of a human nature with the second Person of the Godhead is that the human actions and sufferings of Christ are divine actions and sufferings. The sacraments are a living continuation of this mystery. There are earthly, external signs here which, of themselves, could never acquire any supernatural significance, but the signs of the sacraments have been made by Christ into vehicles of his grace. They effect in men the grace for which Christ made them the sign......
The Church Thus Teaches: There are seven sacraments. They were instituted by Christ and given to the Church to administer"

Abomination in the Eye of God? I'll take my chances.


95 posted on 03/09/2006 10:00:06 AM PST by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: churchillbuff; Onelifetogive; fortunecookie; ExcursionGuy84; The Worthless Miracle; xrp; ...
I don't know that any "Near-Death Experience" has ever been approved by the Catholic Church as authentic. Even when canonized saints have has visions of heaven, hell, or purgatory, the Church does not endorse these officially; I suppose because abnormal brain states and hallucination would be the more likely explanation, even when the affiant is a person of known virtue and intelligence. And there's always the possibility of demonic deception.

NDE's that are all light, with no hint of judgment or repentance, seem especially to be based on wishful thinking, and even a more dangerous kind of delusion.

I am not making a judgment in this particular case; I am just saying that even Christians --- or, especially Christians --- are justified in being sceptical of

96 posted on 03/09/2006 10:02:56 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Jesus, my Lord, my God, my All.)
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To: silverleaf

"I'll take my chances."

Even if you knew Peter never went to Rome?

You're gambling with your immortal soul.


97 posted on 03/09/2006 10:04:19 AM PST by RoadTest ("- - a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people." - Richard Henry Lee, 1786)
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To: silverleaf

"mass (I assume you really mean, the Eucharist, or "communion") does reenact a very significant ritual that orginated as a Passover seder meal"

You're letting the Catholic system put you back under the law. You need to go to Jesus and repent of ever believing Mystery Babylon, the harlot.

Do you really think Christ founded his church on Peter? Then why does it say, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."? (I Cor. 3:10)


98 posted on 03/09/2006 10:13:15 AM PST by RoadTest ("- - a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people." - Richard Henry Lee, 1786)
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To: silverleaf

"I will admit that at mass, we no longer slaughter sheep"

No, you don't. "Jesus" (if it were possible) is slaughtered, according to Catholic docrine, He who was once sacrificed for the sins of man and sat down at the right hand of God. "but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;" (Hebrews 10:12)

The Catholic "mass" purports to bring Him down to earth and re-sacrifice him, in contradiction to God's word.

It's all fakery.


99 posted on 03/09/2006 10:19:43 AM PST by RoadTest ("- - a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people." - Richard Henry Lee, 1786)
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To: RoadTest
But He does not honor lately-invented rites like masses and sacraments. Those are human inventions that fly in the face of The Word Of God.

Human inventions? Did not John the Baptist and Jesus participate in the sacrament of Baptism?

Did not Jesus say, "Do this in memory of me?" - what do you think the Mass is? It is nothing more than following the instructions of Jesus when he said to "Do this in memory of me."

How do you figure that these two things are "lately-invented"? And how does following the scriptures to be Baptised and "do this in memory of me" "fly in the face of the Word of God"? They ARE the word of God!

Don't let your hatred of the Catholic Church cloud your judgement. You may be very surprised when (or if - God does not cotton to hatred and prejudice) you arrive at the gates of St. Peter!

100 posted on 03/09/2006 10:20:55 AM PST by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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