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Some Latin set to return to Novus Ordo
CNA ^ | March 20, 2006 | Catholic News Agency

Posted on 03/20/2006 7:50:53 PM PST by NYCCatholic

Pope’s upcoming Apostolic Exhortation likely to call for increased liturgical solemnity, reintegration of Latin

(Excerpt) Read more at catholicnewsagency.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; latin
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Vatican City, Mar. 20, 2006 (CNA) - In June Pope Benedict XVI will receive the final proposal from the recent Synod of Bishops for the drafting of his Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation on the Eucharist. The commission of 12 cardinals and bishops from around the world, led by the secretary of the Synod of Bishops, Archbishop Nicola Eterovic, will meet in June to present the Holy Father a final proposal based on the 50 propositions that were made at the conclusion of last October's Synod.

According to a Vatican source, the commission will approve “a proposal and a plan for liturgical reform,” which will be made public in the Apostolic Exhortation that the Holy Father will tentatively issue in October.

The Vatican source said that the exhortation would include an invitation to greater use of Latin in the daily prayer of the Church and in the Mass—with the exception of the Liturgy of the Word—as well as in large public and international Masses.

The document would also encourage a greater use of Gregorian chant and classical polyphonic music; the gradual elimination of the use of songs whose music or lyrics are secular in origin, as well as the elimination of instruments that are “inadequate for liturgical use,” such as the electric guitar or drums, although it is not likely that specific instruments will be mentioned.

Lastly, the Pope is expected to call for “more decorum and liturgical sobriety in the celebration of the Eucharist, excluding dance and, as much as possible, applause.”

1 posted on 03/20/2006 7:50:56 PM PST by NYCCatholic
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To: NYCCatholic; GatorGirl; maryz; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; livius; ...

+


2 posted on 03/20/2006 7:54:51 PM PST by narses (St Thomas says “lex injusta non obligat”)
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To: NYCCatholic

Beautiful! Thank you for posting.


3 posted on 03/20/2006 7:59:03 PM PST by Nihil Obstat ( Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner)
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To: NYCCatholic

But, according to some of the liberal Catholics, that's all the good stuff they're throwing out!


4 posted on 03/20/2006 8:12:53 PM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
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To: NYCCatholic

The American liturgists have a lot of money at stake in the current translations, then constantly revolving misalettes, the crummy hymnals, and all the rest of it, and it seems as if the American bishops must have some stake in this too.

This is why they use the New American Bible translation rather than a decent text like the RSV--because the right people hold the copyright and get the royalties.

The same with the hymns. You can't copyright an ancient hymn or Gregorian Chant, but you can copyright and rake in money on all that 1960s schlock.

Pope Gregory will have is work cut out for him changing any of this. It's well known too that he would prefer to have the mass said by the priest facing ad orientem, but it would take a lot of head-knocking and grief to bring that back. Plus most parishes have junked the old altars, so they'd have to build them all over again.


5 posted on 03/20/2006 8:41:12 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: NYCCatholic

"Urge" or "encourage" is not going to cut it. Needs to be "command" and "mandate".

Or as St. Francis said of how his Rule was to be followed: "to the letter, to the letter, and without a gloss."


6 posted on 03/20/2006 8:46:25 PM PST by Theophane
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To: NYCCatholic
"as well as the elimination of instruments that are “inadequate for liturgical use,” such as the electric guitar or drums,"

It's all good but I am happy about the above because I complained about drums at a mass we attended months ago.

7 posted on 03/20/2006 8:50:26 PM PST by TAdams8591
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To: Theophane

I'm sure you are right.


8 posted on 03/20/2006 8:51:14 PM PST by TAdams8591
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To: narses; Theophane
This is good news, and long overdue.

But I agree with Theophane, it needs to be mandated.

And the liberals be damned.

9 posted on 03/20/2006 9:16:39 PM PST by kstewskis ("I don't know what I know, but I know that it's big".....Jerry Fletcher)
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To: Cicero

Benedict


10 posted on 03/20/2006 9:26:15 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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To: NYCCatholic

I hope my Bishop gets the memo! He recently commanded my priest to cease and desist using "extraneous " Latin in the Mass. :(


11 posted on 03/20/2006 9:30:21 PM PST by Americanchild (..and deliver us all from Islam! Amen!)
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To: Americanchild
I hope my Bishop gets the memo! He recently commanded my priest to cease and desist using "extraneous " Latin in the Mass. :(

No Hosanna?

12 posted on 03/20/2006 9:40:50 PM PST by freedumb2003 (American troops cannot be defeated. American Politicians can.)
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To: Theophane

I agree. I've heard exhortations like this before somewhere. Still holding my breath, sadly.

patent


13 posted on 03/20/2006 9:46:25 PM PST by patent (A baby is God's opinion that life should go on. Carl Sandburg)
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To: patent

How about simply junking the Novus Ordo altogether? It has been a bit like the laboratory experiment that got loose.


14 posted on 03/21/2006 12:58:13 AM PST by pravknight (Christos Regnat, Christos Imperat, Christus Vincit)
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To: pravknight

No, I like it, I am drawn closer to the Lord by it. This is the Mass I love.


15 posted on 03/21/2006 1:38:51 AM PST by Talking_Mouse (Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just... Thomas Jefferson)
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To: pravknight; Cicero; NYCCatholic

I just read an excellent book by a Fr. Robinson, an Oratorian priest, who analyzes the failure of the NO and the philosophical problems that led to its creation. However, he doesn't think it would be possible or desirable to restore the Old Mass, as he calls it, because we have a whole generation who have grown up without it and therefore the link with tradition is broken. He feels that its restoration would cause great upset among the people (like the imposition of the NO didn't cause upset????). He's probably right, though, because one of the problems is that our clergy is too theologically ignorant and litugically badly trained to be able to bring it back in the first place or explain it to the people and encourage them in the second.

That said, his suggestions are: More Latin in the NO (the entire Canon in Latin, for example); the priest should face ad orientem during the Canon and any parts of the Mass not actually directed at the people; the cycle of readings should be revised to make the readings not just a three-year trudge through the OT, but memorable and intelligible passages that are repeated on a yearly cycle, as they used to be in the Old Mass; the restoration of Gregorian chant; and the removal of "options" from the rite, whether they are optional readings, Canons, things to be omitted, etc.

I think this would clean it up and might help people to refocus on worship of God as being the purpose of the Mass, rather than "fellowship," feeling good, or any of the other horrible things that have crept in. I'm not sure it's the ultimate solution though, because the NO is about the flattest and least liturgical of all the liturgies found in the liturgical churches (such as the Orthodox Church).


16 posted on 03/21/2006 2:09:05 AM PST by livius
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To: Theophane; kstewskis; patent

Agreed. An "invitation" just ain't gonna do it. I think this is partly out of ill-will on the part of the clergy, control mania on the part of the "liturgy committees," and vested interests such as the OPC (Oregon Catholic Press), etc.

However, I think a lot of it is because many priests, even those who might be willing to do all these things, lack the training to be able to do so. They simply don't have any Latin, they have very little knowledge of Catholic music, and they are theologically too weak to be able to explain things to their congregations or fight for such changes. Believe me, they'd have to fight to be able to get the Mass out of the grip of the "Eucharistic ministers" and others who essentially control the liturgy nowadays.

I think he should mandate these changes, but first he should mandate studies for all of the priests in the Church - one year of liturgical Latin with study of the Old Mass to give modern priests a better foundation in tradition, combined with an introduction to chant and Catholic music and art. And he should do it in such a way that any bishop who refuses to obey should have to go out and find himself a job flipping burgers at McDonald's to pay for his retirement.


17 posted on 03/21/2006 2:18:42 AM PST by livius
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To: livius
"I think this would clean it up and might help people to refocus on worship of God as being the purpose of the Mass, rather than "fellowship," feeling good, or any of the other horrible things that have crept in. I'm not sure it's the ultimate solution though, because the NO is about the flattest and least liturgical of all the liturgies found in the liturgical churches (such as the Orthodox Church)."

I agree with you,though I would still prefer the "old Mass". I made my first communion in 1963. We still used Latin, though the priest read the readings in English. My mom used her missal (which she still has) The choir sang in Latin, and the atmosphere of reverence was so beautiful. That is all gone now. This Sunday, in church, before the priest came in, (he's new to our church), we were all told to stand up and greet each other. It was like an "I'm ok, you're ok" session! It sounded like an auditorium. I wanted to walk out. I've never liked the 'sign of peace' in the mass in the first place - and now this!

I have always believed, in my heart, that we would see a growth in numbers of men entering the priesthood if the Mass was restored to what it should be. Why bother becoming a priest if you can already 'concelebrate' the mass, in a sense, from the 'stands'. The emphasis on the Eucharist - shoved off in a corner somewhere - is gone. Our church is locked so that you can't even visit and spend time with the Lord. I have so much more to rant on, but I get upset as I type and try to put it into words. I know that it would be difficult to bring back the old mass, but I would love to see at least one mass a month in the Latin, in each parish. Or, insert more and more Latin into the mass, and bring the mass back to where it was intended to be. Also, a sincere emphasis MUST be placed on the Eucharist. so many don't believe in the Real Presence! No wonder the church sounds like an auditorium before a school assembly! No one genuflects. The 'altar' is nothing more than a stone slab (artfully arranged, mind you).

Enough. I have already whined enough.

God bless Pope Benedict. May God guide him and give him wisdom.

18 posted on 03/21/2006 3:34:16 AM PST by sneakers
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To: sneakers
I have always believed, in my heart, that we would see a growth in numbers of men entering the priesthood if the Mass was restored to what it should be.

Interestingly, this was one of the points made by Fr. Robinson. He says there's no reason for men to bother entering the priesthood now. Since it has lost its liturgical function, to a great extent, the priesthood is viewed as just another semi-therapeutic "helping profession," and there are certainly other places one can do that, without having to put up with bishops, Eucharistic ministers, etc.

19 posted on 03/21/2006 3:56:03 AM PST by livius
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To: NYCCatholic; marshmallow; randog; wideawake; Jersey Republican Biker Chick; martin_fierro; ...

There have been rumors about this since before the death of +JPII. I hope that those rumors will come true shortly.


20 posted on 03/21/2006 5:12:22 AM PST by markomalley (Vivat Iesus!)
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To: NYCCatholic
There is no reason at all why the Confiteor, the Gloria, the Credo, the Preface, the Pater Noster and the Agnus Dei should not be in Latin or the Kyrie in Greek.

Any Catholic who attends Mass every Sunday from childhood should be able to learn and sing these quite easily.

21 posted on 03/21/2006 5:21:26 AM PST by wideawake
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To: NYCCatholic

I have a friend who will love the "applause" thing. She hates it when people applaud at the end of a Mass.


22 posted on 03/21/2006 5:23:54 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYCCatholic

Maybe next they could think about reinstating:
Kneelers,
Tabernacles within the area of the alter,
The Eternal Flame,
unleavened bread,

If your church has been built in the last 10 years and still has these things, consider yourself lucky!


23 posted on 03/21/2006 5:37:48 AM PST by G Larry (Only strict constructionists on the Supreme Court!)
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To: Talking_Mouse; pravknight
This is the Mass I love.

Latin does have its advantages. Some time ago, I was sitting next to a couple obviously fresh in from Mexico. The wife was struggling to keep up with the missalette. The husband obviously had no clue.

I thought then that if we at least could all say our basic prayers in Latin, we would both know what we are saying and we could do it together.

Most of us can comprehend the meaning of "Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus" without a single lesson in Latin. Liturgical Latin is really not that difficult.

24 posted on 03/21/2006 5:40:51 AM PST by siunevada (If we learn nothing from history, what's the point of having one? - Peggy Hill)
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To: freedumb2003

I think Hosanna is Hebrew.


25 posted on 03/21/2006 5:55:07 AM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
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To: Salvation
She hates it when people applaud at the end of a Mass.

Do you know that in Rome, at the end of the Mass when the Pope is processing out, the congregation always claps and cheers him on. Quite enthusiastically, too. And it's not just the Pope. I went to a Mass celebrated by Cardinal Ruini and they did the same thing with him.

26 posted on 03/21/2006 5:59:55 AM PST by Carolina
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To: livius

You do have to keep in mind that there is "invitation" and there is INVITATION, "encourage" and "ENCOURAGE." Church-speak has inflections and tones and bishops are for the most part not tone-deaf. The words don't matter very much, what matters is whether bishops think Benedict XVI really means it or not.

And that will be signaled by deeds, not words. He has made two or three highly eloquent moves in the Curia--demoting the one guy (I forget his name and position) to an embassy in Jordan or somewhere in Nowheresville instead of promoting him to what he thought was his rightful next post in the Curia. In other words, he turfed him out of the Curia. Then he brought in the new guy for the Congregation for Divine Worship--a pro-Latin, pro-Tridentine character. That speaks volumes more than the words in this statement alone. What's crucial now is to see what happens to Sodano who seems to have tried to lead a palace revolution and failed.

The statement on which this thread's responses comment is important because it puts the bishops of the world on notice. They can't say they don't know what Benedict wants them to do. His actions will tell them whether there will be any consequences for not doing it.

Not that Benedict will sack those who don't get with the program. No, it sends signals to their fellow bishops about what Benedict wants and strengthens their hands in the national conferences of bishops where these things get thrashed out. Up to now the efforts by the reform of the reform reformers have been stymied in the NCCB because the block of resisters is about half to two/thirds of the NCCB. But of that half to two-thirds, some are hard core resisters who will never change their tune, others are winnable. All that has to happen is for the halfhearted resisters to see the handwriting on the wall and fold their cards.

Will it happen? I won't hold my breath. But is it impossible? No. So take heart, be en-couraged, and pray.


27 posted on 03/21/2006 6:04:22 AM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
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To: NYCCatholic; american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; ...
Catholic Ping - Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


28 posted on 03/21/2006 6:11:47 AM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: G Larry

In montgomery country pa, St. Helena has built a new church that was consecrated on Oct. 31, 2004. I must say that when you walk into it, you feel like you are in a church that has been there for the last 50+ years. All the furnishings are from a church that closed in Philadelphia in 2003. Everything from the Reredos, the altar and stations are beautifull! They even left our ugly carpeting!


29 posted on 03/21/2006 6:14:37 AM PST by JustMytwocents70
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To: Theophane
"Urge" or "encourage" is not going to cut it. Needs to be "command" and "mandate".

Pope Benedict proposes, ICEL disposes.

30 posted on 03/21/2006 6:19:45 AM PST by Dumb_Ox (http://kevinjjones.blogspot.com)
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

To: Cicero
Plus most parishes have junked the old altars, so they'd have to build them all over again.

Nah, all you need is a couple of floor jacks and some spackle. Just roll the altar back to the east wall where it belongs!

There's a historical church downtown here (Immaculate Conception) where they still have the original reredos with niches for statues of saints and the Tabernacle. Moving the Tabernacle (which is stuck in a corner over to one side), the altar and a few floor tiles would do it.

Even our parish church, which is of recent construction, could be reworked pretty easily. You could even add an altar rail without much trouble, and rearrange the chairs along the sides. There's even a rudimentary choir already in place (between the two sets of steps). The architect was very consciously looking backwards in the design.

Our Tabernacle would fit nicely in the central niche of the reredos. (It's currently at the head of the aisle on the decani side.)

32 posted on 03/21/2006 6:25:01 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Dionysiusdecordealcis
He has made two or three highly eloquent moves in the Curia--demoting the one guy (I forget his name and position) to an embassy in Jordan or somewhere in Nowheresville instead of promoting him to what he thought was his rightful next post in the Curia. In other words, he turfed him out of the Curia. Then he brought in the new guy for the Congregation for Divine Worship--a pro-Latin, pro-Tridentine character.

Abp Michael Fitzgerald whom everyone expected to get a red hat is now sojourning in the desert. Abp. Patabendige Don from Sri Lanka is now the Secretary for Divine Worship who has a strong affinity for TLM. (Papa transferred the former secretary Sorrentino, who was problematic, out of this position to Assisi where he is under the watchful eye of Cdl. Ruini).

33 posted on 03/21/2006 6:26:49 AM PST by Carolina
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To: NYCCatholic
as well as the elimination of instruments that are “inadequate for liturgical use,” such as the electric guitar or drums, although it is not likely that specific instruments will be mentioned.

I can't stand when the Vatican is ambiguous. If the Vatican does not define what is "inadequate for liturgical use" the current abusers of liturgical music will rationlize their way out of it and everything will continue as it was.

Not defining things = no one obeying.
34 posted on 03/21/2006 6:30:59 AM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: thehairinmynose

LOL


35 posted on 03/21/2006 6:31:55 AM PST by Theoden (Fidei Defensor - Deus vult!)
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To: Cicero
it seems as if the American bishops must have some stake in this too.

I believe I read on FR that the USCCB holds the copyright on that awful translation they use in the missalettes (NAB?).

36 posted on 03/21/2006 6:32:21 AM PST by maryz
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To: livius

I'd like a "market-based" approach. Set the Traditional Latin Mass free, restoring the right for any priest to offer it without having to get permission.

Perhaps also allow the 1965 Missal. Let them all co-exist, and see what results.


37 posted on 03/21/2006 6:34:25 AM PST by B Knotts
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To: Cicero

Such musical schlock has miserably failed the test of time.

Most church musicians are incapable of singing the music - and forget about the people singing along. Yet the songs are supposedly designed to be sung by the people.

Unless the song is a true classic, I simply smile silently.
I will no longer participate in the charade.

I gave it a good try, but if you combine the subversive newage feminist political lyrics of so many of the songs with the low quality of the music and style not suitable for liturgical worship, the music is just crapola (latin for crap).

I don't like to stand in church with crapola coming out of my mouth.


38 posted on 03/21/2006 6:37:36 AM PST by Notwithstanding (I love my German shepherd - Benedict XVI reigns!)
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To: NYCCatholic


Looks like the liturgy will "rise again from ashes" (to steal a line from one of the merrie melodies we are bombarded with this time of year).

Thank you, Papa Ratzi!


39 posted on 03/21/2006 6:39:28 AM PST by Notwithstanding (I love my German shepherd - Benedict XVI reigns!)
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To: wideawake

I think the Confiteor should stay in the vernacular. People need to be reminded that they personally are sinners who need prayer and forgiveness.


40 posted on 03/21/2006 6:43:12 AM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: NYCCatholic

All I can say is: Please don't wait till October!!!!!

Since we're not allowed to use the "A" word during Lent, how about Laus tibi, Domine, Rex aeternae gloriae?

By the way, memo to one poster whose name I forget: the Pope is Benedict, not Gregory.

And isn't it amazing how converts, God love them and we all welcome them = but why do they waste time tracking down gossip about various people in and out of the Vatican and then violate charity by posting it?


41 posted on 03/21/2006 6:44:38 AM PST by TaxachusettsMan
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To: Salvation

If Mass is not made into a theatrical performance, there won't be applause.

This applies equally to those who want to see Opera House Mozart Masses performed in the Old Rite as to those who make the Novus Ordo into a stage act.


42 posted on 03/21/2006 6:44:57 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker

Well said. The simple joy of a Low Mass devoutly celebrated according to the 1962 Missale Romanum is unequalled.


43 posted on 03/21/2006 6:51:15 AM PST by wideawake
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To: livius; Theophane; patent
Believe me, they'd have to fight to be able to get the Mass out of the grip of the "Eucharistic ministers" and others who essentially control the liturgy nowadays.

Isn't that the sorry truth!

I think he should mandate these changes, but first he should mandate studies for all of the priests in the Church - one year of liturgical Latin with study of the Old Mass to give modern priests a better foundation in tradition, combined with an introduction to chant and Catholic music and art.

Very sound, solid, and sensible approach. I hope we see this in the near future. I wonder if today's "current" priests would be required to go back and learn (and/or review) these studies...kind of like "continuing education?"

And he should do it in such a way that any bishop who refuses to obey should have to go out and find himself a job flipping burgers at McDonald's to pay for his retirement.

Love it! LOL

44 posted on 03/21/2006 6:52:28 AM PST by kstewskis ("I don't know what I know, but I know that it's big".....Jerry Fletcher)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker

Oh quit it with that common sense.


45 posted on 03/21/2006 6:54:59 AM PST by Notwithstanding (I love my German shepherd - Benedict XVI reigns!)
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To: NYCCatholic
More Latin would be excellent and I agree that the readings should remain in the vernacular. If I read Scripture at home as part of my daily spiritual exercises, I read it in my mother tongue so there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to hear it in the same tongue at Mass.

However, there's one other thing which I'm looking for which will really show that the counter-revolution has begun in earnest and that is to turn the priest around and make him face away from the people and toward Jesus in the tabernacle. That one thing alone would do more to cripple the "I'm an entertainer" mentality so common among today's priests, than anything else of which I can think.

46 posted on 03/21/2006 6:57:48 AM PST by marshmallow
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To: NYCCatholic
The document would also encourage a greater use of Gregorian chant and classical polyphonic music; the gradual elimination of the use of songs whose music or lyrics are secular in origin,

Huzzah!!!!

as well as the elimination of instruments that are “inadequate for liturgical use,” such as the electric guitar or drums, although it is not likely that specific instruments will be mentioned.

Better be specific, Your Holiness. Give the "liturgists" a nanometer, and they'll take a lightyear.

47 posted on 03/21/2006 6:58:27 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: JustMytwocents70; G Larry; AnAmericanMother; NYer; Cicero
Yes, we are so fortunate here in Philadelphia to have a diocese with good taste and Catholic faith.

Here's new St. Helena's, one of several beautiful new parishes recently erected in the diocese.


48 posted on 03/21/2006 6:59:26 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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Comment #49 Removed by Moderator

To: wideawake; NY Catholic
There is no reason at all why the Confiteor, the Gloria, the Credo, the Preface, the Pater Noster and the Agnus Dei should not be in Latin or the Kyrie in Greek.

Agreed. And I also see no reason why the Confiteor be left out period each week by a number of priests where I (occasionally) attend the N.O.

Or, is there a reason many will do this?

50 posted on 03/21/2006 7:05:03 AM PST by kstewskis ("I don't know what I know, but I know that it's big".....Jerry Fletcher)
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