Seminaries Full in Southern India (despite new anti-conversion law)

Zenit News Agency ^ | April 11, 2006

[NYer]

KOENIGSTEIN, Germany, APRIL 11, 2006 (Zenit.org).- Vocations in India seem to be booming as increasing numbers of young men stepping forward to prepare for the priesthood.

In a recent interview with the international charity Aid to the Church in Need, Father Ignatius Prasad, rector of the Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Chennai (formerly Madras), gave this optimistic assessment of the Church.

The priest explained that his seminary now has 286 students and that -- due to a lack of space -- he had to turn away 23 candidates, who have been forced to continue their training elsewhere.

The seminary is one of four in southern India with a combined total of almost 800 students from 28 dioceses. More than 60 of them are due to be ordained to the priesthood next month.

In Chennai, there were now more than 30 students in each year-group in the seminary's theology section, double the number in the late 1980s, Father Prasad said.

"Vocations are going up; this has been the case for the last five years or so," the rector said. "We find it difficult to admit all the applicants and set a tight deadline for them to get their papers in on time."

Father Prasad revealed that there was growing "political pressure" to limit the growth of the Church with a new anti-conversion law introduced in the state of Tamil Nadu: Preaching in public is forbidden and would-be converts to Christianity now face a barrage of paperwork thrust upon them by government officials.

Retreats, sodalities

The seminary rector said that people were turning to the Church in protest against the new regulations.

"The more pressure they put on people, the more they feel like proclaiming their faith," he said.

The priest went on to explain that lively youth programs were drawing people to the faith and encouraging men to discern a possible vocation to the priesthood. Retreats, sodalities and altar serving had all helped to boost the number of seminarians.

He also praised the work of Aid to the Church in Need, describing how the charity had supported key training for seminary staff, Mass intentions, library books and a generator.

"What we feel is so important," Father Prasad added, "is to help the students to realize what they are learning about is not so much an academic subject but a mystery, something that is very personal and with a strong human dimension to it."

[Old_Mil]

For us hindus , our country is always more important than our faith.

If you'd think about that statement for a minute, you'd see how utterly ridiculous it sounds. Religious Faiths, by its very nature, deals with things eternal that surpass and extend beyond the affairs of this world. Meanwhile, countries, governments, constitutions, rise and fall. A faith that is subservient to a nation-state is truly one that is bankrupt and has nothing of worth to say to anyone.

[Cronos]

Religious Faiths, by its very nature, deals with things eternal that surpass and extend beyond the affairs of this world. Meanwhile, countries, governments, constitutions, rise and fall. A faith that is subservient to a nation-state is truly one that is bankrupt and has nothing of worth to say to anyone.

You are trying to ascribe to Hinduism the limitations of "religions of the book" -- namely CHristianity, Judaism, Sikhiism, Islam, which have clearly defined structures.

[Old_Mil]

You are trying to ascribe to Hinduism the limitations of "religions of the book" -- namely CHristianity, Judaism, Sikhiism, Islam, which have clearly defined structures.

Not really. You're right in saying that to one degree or another, anything goes in Hinduism. Nevertheless, it - unlike Islam which makes no bones about its desire to set up a temporal calphate by the power of the sword - is a religion that traffics in spiritual affairs.

The original poster had stated that a Christian's first allegiance was to his God, and then to his nation as if this was a flaw. In reality, it's the sign of a mature religious faith.

[CarrotAndStick]

The original poster had stated that a Christian's first allegiance was to his God, and then to his nation as if this was a flaw. In reality, it's the sign of a mature religious faith.

The original issue was the said poster's claim of him being an Indian citizen, while pleading allegience to the Portuguese flag. Religion wasn't involved in this.

[CarrotAndStick]

If we had the same poster in mind, that is. Otherwise, I've made a faulty assumption.

[Upbeat]

You are absolutely correct. We do want to convert everyone to Christ, but we do it, or at least should do it, by love not by terror.

[Upbeat]

My intent was not a blanket condemnation of an Indian culture. I agree with almost all that you said. India is a growing capitalistic democracy and the murderer of Staines was convicted in a secular court. The problem is that a small terrorist minority within the Hindu religious party has created terror among some of those who would preach the Gospel. Remember that India has a parliamentary system of government and it's comparitively easy in that system for a minority to leverage power and I believe that is what is being attempted.

[Cronos]

The problem is that a small terrorist minority within the Hindu religious party has created terror among some of those who would preach the Gospel. Remember that India has a parliamentary system of government and it's comparitively easy in that system for a minority to leverage power and I believe that is what is being attempted.

And I for my part agree with your points. I think our Hindu friends here also agree with the fact that there IS a small terrorist minority (which they do condemn), but they will get quite irritated if we condemn ALL Hindus for the acts of these unwanted bad apples (and this is quite different from Islam where jihadis are feted and considered as saints with a one-way express ticket to 70 odd virgins and 30 odd young boys)

[CarrotAndStick]

Yes of course. Everyone has their extremists. And they must be removed, no matter what the cost, with impartiality.

[Upbeat]

I thought the jehadis were supposed to get 72 Virginians.

[Cronos]

Or 72 Vegans.

[Upbeat]

I surrender. I can't top that one.

[sukhoi-30mki]

A little bit of reality about Goa-it's been a Hindu majority state long before India annexed it & the folks who supposedly had loyalties to Portugal(anglo-Indians) consisted a neglible chunk of the population.Often they are confused with the larger westernised Marathi ,Konkani & Mangalorean Christian catholics.

[sukhoi-30mki]

Umm Tuesdays have some significance for hindus where I live in Del.I think it's got something to do with Hanuman & I usually find non-veg serving restaurants closed on that day.

[CarrotAndStick]

Also a day for female deities. This draws large Hindu crowds who pay reverence to Mother Mary.

[dangus]

>> The PORTUGUESE were interested in spreading the word of God. <<

I don't know about that. I'm not sure about Portuguese intents in the 19th century, but in the 16th century, the Protuguese rulers were pretty much the pariahs of the "Catholic" world, for being godless. OTOH, they certainly seemed to have converted more than the British did.

[dangus]

Don't throw me into this! I have said over and over and over again how much I admire the Indian culture. I just got into this to defend a guy I saw savagely attacked on this web site.

[dangus]

Please see, for instance, post #210.

[dangus]

>> Chutch = Church. Lord, forgive me! :) <<

For What? For writing with Tom Keane's NJ accent?

"Na Juhzzie and you, Puhhfect tigethuh" :^D

[CarrotAndStick]

With the Portuguese, it was a convert-or-cie affair. The Goa Inquisition.

The Goa Inquisition was the office of the Inquisition acting in the Indian city of Goa and the rest of the Portuguese empire in Asia. Established in 1560, it was aimed primarily at Hindus and wayward new converts and by the time it was suppressed in 1774, the inquisition had had thousands of people executed and tortured.

Christian missionary St. Francis Xavier, in a 1545 letter to John III, requested for an Inquisition to be installed in Goa. However, it was not installed until after eight years of Francis Xavier's death in 1552.

The first inquisitors, Aleixo Dias Falcão and Francisco Marques, established themselves in what was formerly the sultan of Goa's palace, forcing the Portuguese viceroy to relocate to a smaller residence. The inquisitor's first act was forbidding Hindus from practising their faith through fear of death. Sephardic Jews, many of whom had fled the Iberian Peninsula to escape the excesses of the Spanish Inquisition to begin with, and living in Goa were also persecuted.

In 1599 under Aleixo de Menezes the Synod of Diamper converted the Saint Thomas Christians with the Roman Catholic Church. Unfortunately, the synod enforced severe restrictions on their faith and practice using Syriac/Aramaic. Those Kerala Nasrani who resisted the conversion to Latin rite faced persecution.

A large number of restrictive religious laws were enacted, including the banning of Hindu musical instruments, dhoti, betel leaves and cholis. Many Hindu temples were converted or destroyed, and Christian churches built in their place, often from the materials of the temples they replaced. Throughout this period several important Hindu texts were burned to saturate the area with Christian religious texts. Most notably, the Kama Sutra increased in infamy with its lewd alternatives to the endorsed Missionary position.

The condemned Hindus were publicly burned at the stake in the square outside the Sé Cathedral in batches during ceremonies known as auto da fé (Portuguese: act of faith). Those who confessed to their accused heresy would be strangled prior to the burning.

Though officially repressed in 1774, the last vestiges of the Goa Inquisition were not finally swept away until the British occupied the city in 1812.


References
Streatfeidl-James, Douglas and Thomas, Bryn. Lonely Planet - Goa. Lonely Planet Publications, 1998.
Henry James Coleridge, ed. The Life and Letters of St. Francis Xavier. 2d Ed., 2 Vols. London: Burns & Oates, 1890.

[CarrotAndStick]

convert-or-cie die affair.

"Na Juhzzie and you, Puhhfect tigethuh"

(Repeating to self):Gotta stop typing with elbow resting on a pillow...Gotta stop typing with elbow resting on a pillow...Gotta stop typing with elbow resting on a pillow...Gotta stop typing with elbow resting on a pillow...Gotta stop typing with elbow resting on a pillow.

:^)

[Conservative til I die]

With your 'my relgion superior to yours attitude' , you will lose a lot of friends.

Hmmph. I don't see where I told you my religion is better than yours. I certainly do believe that, but I didn't say that to you.

With your sort of presumptupousness, maybe it's no wonder if you're losing friends whenever you talk about religion.

[dangus]

Thanks Cronos; I'd like to say one thing to all the participants of this debate:

There are several participants who insist on turning everything into "Hindus are all wonderful, and Christians are all evil" or "Christians are all wonderful, and Hindus are all evil."

Anybody who has ever read my posts knows I'm no syncretist. In fact, next to Islam, Western syncretism is one of the religious impulses I respect the least. (There are syncretic aspects of Hindu, but that actually stems from a paticular religious belief, unlike Western syncretism which is essentially a lazy agnosticism; I pick out Islam because it is the one religion which was created with an explicitly anti-Christian and explicitly violent purpose.)

I think it is pretty ridiculous to say "Christians are all..." or "Hindus are all..." Both religions are very diverse, and both can be represented by people merely on the basis of cultural identification. (The person who said many Hindus [and I would add many Christians] would kiss the secular ass of anyone who help them get food on the table, that person, was very correct.) Good and evil souls exist within both religions. There are faithful members of both religions, and people who simply use it as a tool.

My interest in this is purely a response to some savage and disgusting attacks I read, early on this thread, which disgraced Free Republic. One poster expressed that he has experienced anti-Christian discrimination in India. I know for a fact that Christians are seen in some parts of India as subverting the caste system, and therefore, they are very much disliked by those who benefit from the caste system at the expense of the "untouchables."

The existence of untouchables is a horrible shame on the religion of Hinduism. My own religion, Catholicism, has its own horrible shames. Pop culture in America has wildly exaggerated some of these: the inquisition, for instance, gets blamed for all the abuses that it was created to end; and the Crusades saved Western Civilization by resisting a deadly aggressor which is characterized as hapless nice guys. But some are undeniable, and much more relevant, such as the pedophilia scandals. The inquisition was pretty damned ugly, especially by modern standards. "Saving" the Spanish Jews by expelling them before the crowds could kill them is hardly a just way of dealing with the problem, and those crowds were Catholic, also. And while the armies which sacked Constantinople had been excommunicated for their belicose actions, no-one can deny that there was great fault with Catholic leaders for having contributed to those circumstances.

Further, I recognize that the phenomenon of the untouchables and the caste system is endorsed only by certain minority sects of Hinduism. The fact that it benefits the wealthy and the powerful makes it easy to understand as a corruption of Hinduism.

I find that there are serious flaws with Hinduism (that should be obvious by the fact that I have not become Hindu): A religion which finds everything sacred finds nothing particularly sacred, and is inherently vulnerable to denigrating beliefs, such as the worship of cattle above people and the existence of a caste system.

I find very serious flaws with Protestantism, too. And I have no doubt that Protestants will have no trouble pointing out what they believe are serious flaws with Catholicism, even in its ideal state. And frankly, as a Christian, I find most Hindus easier to get along with and work productively with than just about any culture.

These facts are irrelevant to the facets of the debate I have entered.

What is relevant is that coerced religious identification is disgusting. It is counter-productive to the group that practices it.

Some of the statements I have read on this thread are disgusting.

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. And everyone is entitled to believe that there are flaws in everyone else's beliefs. And everyone should recognize that if they think their beliefs are perfect, they are really screwed up. To not disagree with anyone is to be mindless and weak. What is important is how we conduct ourselves and treat others in the presence of such disagreements.

[dangus]

A flag goes up when the principle source of a Wikipedia article is a travelogue series whose only other publication is about Siberia...

...but I found out this much:

That an inquisition occured is very plain. But a true inquisition SHOULD be a strictly internal affair, aimed at routing out heretics, not apostates or non-Christians. As noted recently on this thread by me, the term "inquisition" has been applied to the horrific actions that were exactly what the real inquisition was founded to put an end to.

Essentially, an inquisition is about "brand-name protection": We don't care what you believe in, but just don't call it Christianity. We're the Christian church, and you ain't us. The result of what St. Francis Xavier had called for was a reunification of the Syro-Malabarese church with the Catholic church.

What was the nature of the Goa inquisition? Plainly it was a true inquisition in that it was established by Rome. Did it commit horrible atrocities? Did it become a tool of the Portuguese royalty, permitting the Portuguese Royalty to commit horrible atrocities? Did it oppose horrible atrocities by the Portguese royalty? Did anyone actually commit horrible atrocities in the first place?

Unfortunately, the internet appears insufficient in addressig these questions.

That Rome was not pleased with later developments out of the office of the Goa inquisition is very plain. The Portuguese who ran Goa were essentially considered atheists by Rome, and St. Francis Xavier himself left Goa years before the arrival of the inquisition because he found the Goan Portuguese to be wholly godless. At first, the Inquisition was staffed with people from Rome and Rome was quite pleased. In the end, Rome declared the Portuguese unfit for missionary activity, and sent non-Portuguese in to fix the mess.

Apparently what happened in Goa is very debated within India. The Sangh Parivar (a group) in 1998-1999 launched a series of violent attacks against Christian communities, justifying themselved with alleged atrocities during Portuguese rule. Official government reports concluded that this was a manufactured issue, designed to create an enemy for Parivar's nationalist-socialist ideology. (The West has a famous acronym for nationalist-socialist, taken from German: NaZi.) And the Parivar, who was cited as a major source by much of what I *could* find on the web, was commonly accused of instigating, aiding, and abetting the anti-Christian terrorism which did occur in Goa.

This does not mean that there were not atrocities during Portuguese rule. Unfortunately, it does mean that given the dearth of information about it on the internet, it's impossible to know how fair or accurate the information available on the web is. Minor authors from unesteemed sources (A Siberian travelogue?) simply are unreliable; given a dearth of information, Wikipedia will publish anything; and although slander related to the Inquisition is foundational to American Protestantism, at least in the case of Goa, the mainline Protestants sided with the Catholics, while condemning derogatory missionary tactics by rogue, unaffiliated Christian groups. On the other hand, in the case of Goa, it was actually in their self-interest to side with the Catholics.

[CarrotAndStick]

Although the post I placed was from Wiki, I did take care to add in the citation for the article below it.

Streatfeidl-James, Douglas and Thomas, Bryn. Lonely Planet - Goa. Lonely Planet Publications, 1998.

Henry James Coleridge, ed. The Life and Letters of St. Francis Xavier. 2d Ed., 2 Vols. London: Burns & Oates, 1890.

I was of the opinion the two citations above are pretty reliable. But you also have a point. Also note that the second citation dates back to 1890. I doubt the 'Parivar' existed back then.

Anyway, I will be searching for the title on the British Library catalogue, and if I find anything, I'll ping you to it.

[CarrotAndStick]

Just found this:

Burns & Oates is a British publishing house which now exists as an imprint of Continuum. It was founded by James Burns in 1835, originally as a bookseller. Burns was of Presbyterian background and he gained a reputation as a High Church publisher, producing works by the Tractarians.

In 1847 his business was put in jeopardy when he converted to Roman Catholicism, but the firm was fortunate to receive the support of John Henry Newman chose the firm to publish many of his works. There is a story that Newman's novel Loss and Gain was written specifically to assist Burns.

After a while trading as Burns, James Burns took a partner, renaming the company Burns & Lambert. In 1866 they were joined by a younger man, William Wilfred Oates, making the company Burns, Lambert & Oates and later Burns & Oates. Oates was another Catholic convert, and had previously co-founded the publishing house of Austin & Oate,s based in Bristol. Burns & Oates passed to his son Wilfred Oates, whose sister Mother Mary Salome became one of the firm’s most successful authors.

In the USA the company's agent was The Catholic Publications Society of New York.


Bibliography
Wilfred Wilberforce, The House of Burns and Oates, London: Burns and Oates, 1908

Early Chapters in the History of Burns and Oates, No Location: Privately Printed, 1949

[CarrotAndStick]

Found this Jewish site, via www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

http://www.saudades.org/memoirsofgoa.html


Apparently, the literature here makes the 'Parivar' version tame in comparison.

And I will admit this site could be biased.

[CarrotAndStick]

The Inquisition

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html

---

The Inquisition was a Roman Catholic tribunal for discovery and punishment of heresy, which was marked by the severity of questioning and punishment and lack of rights afforded to the accused.

While many people associate the Inquisition with Spain and Portugal, it was actually instituted by Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) in Rome. A later pope, Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition, in 1233, to combat the heresy of the Abilgenses, a religious sect in France. By 1255, the Inquisition was in full gear throughout Central and Western Europe; although it was never instituted in England or Scandinavia.

Initially a tribunal would open at a location and an edict of grace would be published calling upon those who are conscious of heresy to confess; after a period of grace, the tribunal officers could make accusations. Those accused of heresy were sentenced at an auto-da-fe, Act of Faith. Clergyman would sit at the proceedings and would deliver the punishments. Punishments included confinement to dungeons, physical abuse and torture. Those who reconciled with the church were still punished and many had their property confiscated, as well as were banished from public life. Those who never confessed were burned at the stake without strangulation; those who did confess were strangled first. During the 16th and 17th centuries, attendance at auto da-fe’ reached as high as the attendance at bullfights.

In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews. However, disputes about Maimonides’ books (which addressed the synthesis of Judaism and other cultures) provided a pretext for harassing Jews and, in 1242, the Inquisition condemned the Talmud and burned thousands of volumes. In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake took place in France.

In 1481 the Inquisition started in Spain and ultimately surpassed the medieval Inquisition, in both scope and intensity. Conversos (Secret Jews) and New Christians were targeted because of their close relations to the Jewish community, many of whom were Jews in all but their name. Fear of Jewish influence led Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand to write a petition to the Pope asking permission to start an Inquisition in Spain. In 1483 Tomas de Torquemada became the inquisitor-general for most of Spain, he set tribunals in many cities. Also heading the Inquisition in Spain were two Dominican monks, Miguel de Morillo and Juan de San Martin.

First, they arrested Conversos and notable figures in Seville; in Seville more than 700 Conversos were burned at the stake and 5,000 repented. Tribunals were also opened in Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia. An Inquisition Tribunal was set up in Ciudad Real, where 100 Conversos were condemned, and it was moved to Toledo in 1485. Between 1486-1492, 25 auto-da-fes were held in Toledo, 467 people were burned at the stake and others were imprisoned. The Inquisition finally made its way to Barcelona, where it was resisted at first because of the important place of Spanish Conversos in the economy and society.

More than 13,000 Conversos were put on trial during the first 12 years of the Spanish Inquisition. Hoping to eliminate ties between the Jewish community and Conversos, the Jews of Spain were expelled in 1492..

The next phase of the Inquisition began around 1531, when Pope Leo X extended the Inquisition to Portugal. Thousands of Jews came to Portugal after the 1492 expulsion. A Spanish style Inquisition was constituted and tribunals were set up in Lisbon and other cities. Among the Jews who died at the hands of the Inquisition were well-known figures of the period such as Isaac de Castro Tartas, Antonio Serrao de Castro and Antonio Jose da Silva. The Inquisition never stopped in Spain and continued until the late 18th century.

By the second half of the 18th century, the Inquisition abated, due to the spread of enlightened ideas and lack of resources. The last auto-da-fe in Portugal took place on October 27, 1765. Not until 1808, during the brief reign of Joseph Bonaparte, was the Inquisition abolished in Spain. An estimated 31,912 heretics were burned at the stake, 17,659 were burned in effigy and 291,450 made reconciliations in the Spanish Inquisition. In Portugal, about 40,000 cases were tried, although only 1,800 were burned, the rest made penance.

The Inquisition was not limited to Europe; it also spread to Spanish and Portugese colonies in the New World and Asia. Many Jews and Conversos fled from Portugal and Spain to the New World seeking greater security and economic opportunities. Branches of the Portugese Inquisition were set up in Goa and Brazil. Spanish tribunals and auto-da-fes were set up in Mexico, the Philippine Islands, Guatemala, Peru, New Granada and the Canary Islands. By the late 18th century, most of these were dissolved.

---

Sources: "Inquisition." Encyclopedia Judaica.LINK
"The Spanish Inquisition Gates to Jewish Heritage". LINK
The Sephardic Jews in PortugalLINK

[dangus]

I would definitely say the second source would certainly not be biased against Catholicism! But the first source seems to be the primary source; consider, for instance, how the article deals with St. Francis Xavier: one would get the idea he was calling for Jihad against the Hindus, when really what he was trying to do was establish what issues might complicate a return of the Malabarese to full communion with the Catholic Church!!!

It's "Lonely Planet" which I believe is the dominant source, and the one which provides for the basic tone of the article... Turns out that Lonely Planet was a BBC (ugh!) TV series; although Streatfeidl's only other book was Siberia, the series did journey to manu other destinations: Paris, Beijing, Thailand, Uzbekistan, Papua New Guineas, Hawaii, and South Africa, as well as other regional guides (Central Asia, US cities, Western Europe, etc.)

Despite being a spinoff of a BBC (ugh!) TV series, I don't know its inherently hateful, but I am suspicious that a Siberian expert with no other writing history is sent to a place experiencing a Marxist revolution, during the midst of anti-Christian pogroms; and then of the fact that whoever write the Wikipedia article thought this little snippet was essentially all he needed to know about Goa.

[CarrotAndStick]

Perhaps.

I did notice however, the issue is pretty sensitive in Jewish circles.

Most Jews in India have left for Israel since that country was established (however they retain their ties with India, and many still speak Indian tongues in Israel, and come to visit friends they left behind in India).

So, I have very little Indian Jewish sources to quote from.

The links and excerpts I posted earlier were from Jewish sources, mostly based in the US and/ or Israel.

[The Lion Roars]

To say that christianity has always been peaceful in india is not true. Read this report on nagaland. Incidentally some missionaries and some lobby groups in congress condone this murder as a fight for freedom!!

http://www.dailyherald.com/special/passagefromindia/nagaland.asp

And to answer the question on the portugese inquisition in goa please read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition

The first inquisitors, Aleixo Dias Falcão and Francisco Marques, established themselves in what was formerly the sultan of Goa's palace, forcing the Portuguese viceroy to relocate to a smaller residence. The inquisitor's first act was forbidding Hindus from practising their faith through fear of death. Sephardic Jews, many of whom had fled the Iberian Peninsula to escape the excesses of the Spanish Inquisition to begin with, and living in Goa were also persecuted.

this is the synagogue in kerala that the portugese tore down. for the jewish people india was one of the few countries that gave them freedom to worship until the portugese came.

[pganini]

"In China - foreign missionaries are not allowed entry. Chinese pastors are routinely imprisoned , tortured"

Leave it to an Indian nationalist to redirect a criticism against India to China :)

You guys have a huge inferiority complex. Not sure why, but every criticism of India results in some comparison on China. I am surprised ya'll haven't called TBP a chicom yet.

[pganini]

"When India gained independence, it wanted European colonies out of the Indian continent -- just as the USA's Monroe Doctrine prescribed no foreign involvement in North OR South America."

really..? So you'd support Indian's forcible occupation of Goa? Does that mean you'd support China's policy on Taiwan?

You can't have it both ways.

[The Lion Roars]

really..? So you'd support Indian's forcible occupation of Goa?

Yes

Does that mean you'd support China's policy on Taiwan?

dont you claim to be taiwanese?? lol. anyways the answer is NO. any invasion on taiwan will lead to a massive counter attack on all chinese cities. the chicoms better remember that. start behaving. the world is getting tired of your arrogant dictatorship and you have managed to rub off a lot of countries on the wrong side - japan, india, mongolia, vietnam, taiwan to name a few. the noose is tightening acround the chic(ken)coms.

[CarrotAndStick]

Ha ha ha! Taiwan is independent. And democratic. It is free.

China is as free as a dog tied to an iron leash.

Taiwan is not under foreign occupation. Goa was.

[Antoninus]

Yawn. A monkey with a keyboard could write a better screed than that.

[SaltyJoe]

I admire your tenacity and enjoy your posts.

Ever notice a poor tactic of inflaming emotion? Some have tried to accuse me of a "temper" problem when none was given by me. I notice that this "you have a temper problem" is especially used when a debater has lost substance on the subject. For example, "My, you have lost your temper again. Thus, you must be wrong."

This was especially so when I had 3 "Catholic" room mates trying to convince me that abortion was a good thing. When I refused to submit to Satan and his works, all of them said that I had a temper problem. How does it compute that if I disagree with a position, it must mean that I'm prone to losing my temper? What a sham. I got a Mass intention for the each of them instead of playing into their domination games. Perhaps they have married and have children. They surely have the means to see into the womb. Upon looking at their unborn child on a video screen, how would they hold onto a pro-abortion opinion now? Thus, I don't hold a grudge for their hostility against me.

Fly your ethnic flag if you like. It wouldn't (or shouldn't) ever bother an American to see someone display their ancestor's heritage. Most of us in the U.S. know enough that we're all a bunch of mutts anyway. Doesn't the rest of the world know that most of humanity doesn't suffering inbreeding?

I'd trust your opinion before others in your present neighborhood...but don't take that as credit because I'm just a mere mortal. Human respect should be loathed. Remaining in Communion with Christ is the ONLY thing that concerns us. Nationality, culture, ethnic heritage...this is all trivial when compared to being in God's Grace.

Upon seeing the Face of God, all arguments dissolve. Politics is a diabolical tactic to pit human effort against each other. Please recall, too, that even the Apostles suffered "sibling" rivalry in trying to gain Jesus' favor. But Jesus exclaimed emphatically that we are not to be like worldly rulers who use their power to lord it over us. Instead, the greatest among us must be servant to the least. Going further, Jesus showed his Apostles exactly what He meant by washing each of their feet.

So, in debate where searching and sometimes competing wills confront, the challenge of spiritual conscience is to draw out the evil cloaked in human flesh so that the human heart can discern, with unmasked evidence, what is good and what is evil. Jesus did this for all of us by dying on the Cross. That's why the Crucifix is such an important instrument, and indeed a weapon against evil when in the hands of an Exorcist. A devil can surely see the Spiritual Truth of Christ on the Cross. Seeing the Crucified Christ announces the impending doom of the demonic's eternal punishment. Holy Water has similar effect. Yet, as wondrous these sacred objects, they aren't nearly as powerful as the Sacraments of Reconciliation and Holy Eucharist.

Many here have, at one time, been the object of ridicule and suffering. It's very difficult to find peace amidst such an assault. But if die in a State of Grace, then we'll remember these trying moments with the greatest of satisfaction that it was in these painful episodes that we were closest to the Love of Christ and indeed shared in His Glory.

[Upbeat]

Unless Bobby Jindal has experienced a "second conversion", he is still a Catholic, not a "hard core baptist".

[dangus]

>> Likewise in the US, , Bobby Jindal , born to high caste hindu parents , becomes a hardcore baptist to enhance his chances as a Republican Congressman in the Bible Belt. This is a rarity because an overwhelming majority of the 2.4 million strong Indian-Americans in the US are highly devoted to hinduism. Guess thats because the management at Microsoft or IBM dont care too much about the religious affiliation of their employees.) <<

I've decided not to communicate with you, but for the sake of Bobby Jindal:

I've met Mr. Jindal. I presume you haven't. He is born in America. AND HE'S NOT BAPTIST! He's Catholic. Funny how you are so arrogant and bigoted you can presume you know why someone converted despite not even knowing what religion he is. And you may just want to check your stats before asserting that the "overwhelming" majority of Indians in America are Hindu.

Being Catholic, and going to Catholic Universities, it's hard for me to know how representative the people I know are, but huge portions of Catholic University attendees are non-Catholic, and the majority of Indians I've met are Christian.

[Raj13008]

Baptist/Catholic/whatever - I am just a monkey god worshipper. All mean same to me. I dont know what short of group you live in , probably some crazy relgious bunch , but the very fact that you say that majority of Indians you meet in US are x'tian means you need to go out a lot more. You know - all those people with those funny accents , motel owners , doctors , silicon valley geeks - they are all mostly hindus. And make a lot of $$$.

But to give you credit , I guess one of my heroes , Vivek Paul , the ex-VP of Wipro and now with TPG is probably an x'tian ....Great chap. Dont think you have heard of him though. Dont think he is much of a church goer.Too busy making big bucks for that.

[Raj13008]

Just wanted you ton know my pagan soul is available for hire or harvesting or whatever.....

$250k. Thats the starting price. Baptist/ Catholic/ Lutherian/ Whatever. Please save my soul....

[dangus]

"Initially a tribunal would open at a location and an edict of grace would be published calling upon those who are conscious of heresy to confess; after a period of grace, the tribunal officers could make accusations. Those accused of heresy were sentenced at an auto-da-fe, Act of Faith. Clergyman would sit at the proceedings and would deliver the punishments. Punishments included confinement to dungeons, physical abuse and torture. Those who reconciled with the church were still punished and many had their property confiscated, as well as were banished from public life. Those who never confessed were burned at the stake without strangulation; those who did confess were strangled first. During the 16th and 17th centuries, attendance at auto da-fe’ reached as high as the attendance at bullfights."

For the record, these are the offenses the Inquisition was founded to put an end to. Those found innocent of an Inquisition were set loose; their major hardship being their lost productivity. However, because of the Protestant perception that the Church and State are one, many actions of the State are routinely lumped together as "THE Inquisition," presumed to be conducted by the Catholic church.

For instance, the practice of burning at the stake stems from superstitions alien to Catholicism, and was not done by the Inquisition. Furthermore, to the State, non-Christians were often treated as suspicious, in some cases because of smoldering hostilities (Moors in Spain), but in other cases due to ignorance. The actual Inquisition dealt exclusively with professing Catholics. Of course, that doesn't mean it was simple to avoid unjust persecution; if the State is persecuting non-Catholics to rid itself of "foreign subversives," it would seem to make sense to proclaim oneself Catholic out of fear... and then make yourself a target of the Inquisition.

Many of the most famous "Inquisitions" were no inquisitions at all: The relatively uniquely British custom of burning witches, the explusion of Jews from Spain, etc. But that doesn't mean that they were unrelated to the Inquisition:

Spain had been occupied by Islam. After it was returned to Christianity, Muslim subversives claimed Catholicism. (Poorly understood, this is actually something the Muslim faith would prescribe to conquered peoples: you don't have to BELIEVE in Islam, just act like you do.) Amidst a constant campaign to restore Christianity, the public got the very strong message that non-Christians were likely subversives trying to return to Muslim domination. Tragicly, the biblical language for dealing with those "who denied Christ" (as the Muslims did) was often expressed in the terms of Jews.

With outbreaks of violence occuring against the Jews in Spain, heightened by the results of inquisitions and The Inquisition, the Spanish royalty explained to Rome that they could no longer protect the Jews from the crowds. In one of the worst cases of punishing the victims, Rome consented to permitting the expulsion of the Jews "for their own safety". None of this happened through the actual Inquisition, but it certainly demonstrates that a claim that something was not actually The Inquisition does not at all whitewash the Catholic church!

However, in many other cases, all sorts of violent oppressions were conducted by kings who claimed Catholicism, often with the explicit condemnation of Rome and the Catholic Bishops, or using methods which were considered even then to be barbaric and gravely sinful. Threats of excommunication, perdition and eternal damnation could not sway their practitioners from their use. In cases such as these, the use of the term "Inquisition" is a distortion of history, made from a combination of simple-mindedness and deliberate bias.

Incidentally, the head of the REAL Inquisition was just elected Pope (although John Paul had changed the title).

[Conservative til I die]

You know - all those people with those funny accents , motel owners , doctors , silicon valley geeks - they are all mostly hindus. And make a lot of $$$.

Who cares. What does money have to do with any of this discussion.

And I see you haven't learnred your lesson yet. I foresee another ban in your future.

[Conservative til I die]

After life or salvation are very abstract concepts and I would be surprised if that was the basis on which people chose the faith they wised to follow. The only life that matters is 'this life' , not 'after-life'

That's very saddening you think this way. Money is all you care about. And many religionsists would disagree with you about which life matters most.

(Likewise in the US, , Bobby Jindal , born to high caste hindu parents , becomes a hardcore baptist to enhance his chances as a Republican Congressman in the Bible Belt.

Jindal's a Catholic. Please get your facts straight before insulting a person's integrity.

The rest of your post was to disgusting and insulting to my intelligence for me to waste my time on it.

[pganini]

Goa wasn't under "foreign occupation" Goa BELONGED to Portugal.

You guys are hilarious - you'd support your own country's aggression against another for "foreign occupation" reasons but when similar situation is in another country, you'd automatically raise the flag "it's the CCP it's the CCP!"

The same deal goes with your arrogance on the Christianity issue being persecuted in India.

Funny, i was expecting more Hindu nationalists to jump on me - i guess they must have problem getting to work in Bangalore from the riots and the police using DEADLY force (like China) and shot to death 5 protestors, eh?

[CarrotAndStick]

Goa wasn't under "foreign occupation" Goa BELONGED to Portugal.

Are you mad?

[The Lion Roars]

Are you mad?

worse. he s a chicom troll.

[The Lion Roars]

but huge portions of Catholic University attendees are non-Catholic, and the majority of Indians I've met are Christian.

if you go to a christian school you will meet christians. funny to assume that a majority of indians are christian.

[The Lion Roars]

Funny, i was expecting more Hindu nationalists to jump on me - i guess they must have problem getting to work in Bangalore from the riots and the police using DEADLY force (like China) and shot to death 5 protestors, eh?

considering that china had 75000 riots last year and that has prevented chicom trolls disguised as "taiwanese in texas" to post here....i think the bangalore incident wont be a stopper.