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Easter as a Meaingful Holiday Lays a Colored Egg?
Biblestudy.org ^ | Unknown | Barbara Fenney

Posted on 04/14/2006 6:32:26 PM PDT by DouglasKC

Easter as a meaningful holiday lays a colored egg?

I have been interested in ancient Greek, Roman and Egyptian mythology since early teenage. The problem was that the stories became repetitive; each culture had its own versions of the basic legends. No matter into which part of the world I extended my studies, the underlying stories remained the same.

It was only when I came into contact with the true God that I realized these legends all came from a single counterfeit religion originating in ancient Mesopotamia.

In this article I do not intend to cover the Easter controversy, concerning the change from Passover to Easter. This is well documented in encyclopedias, church histories and Sabbatarian literature. I will, however, attempt to explain where some of the current traditions have come from.

The legend

Easter is an ancient festival, involving the death and resurrection of the husband or lover of the Great Earth Mother goddess.

Before I explain the details, it might be useful to list some of the equivalent gods and goddesses involved, since every country and often each city-state within that country had its own form of the same divinities, with local variations.

In most cases the husband is also the son or half-brother of the goddess.

  • Assyria: Semiramis and Ninus.
  • Babylon: Ishtar and Tammuz.
  • Egypt: Isis and Osiris
  • Syria: Astarte and Bel or Baal (Marduk) (later Venus Urania and Adonis).
  • Greece: Aphrodite and Adonis.
  • Rome: Kybele and Attis (or Venus and Adonis).

The actual legend is a bit muddled depending on which version you choose but basically goes like this Egyptian one:

The goddess Isis was married to her brother Osiris. The latter was killed by Set, who sent pieces of his body all over the land of Egypt.

Isis set out on a journey to recover the pieces. Having found them, she spent a night and day casting spells to bring Osiris back to life.

In spite of her great powers, she only partially succeeded but was allowed one last night with her husband, during which she conceived her son Horus.

The following morning at dawn Osiris rose to take his place in the heavens alongside his father, the sun god Ra. Having thus received eternal life, he became ruler of the underworld, judging the dead.

What might appear at first glance a simple and noble love story turns out to be anything but that on closer examination. Based on fact, the original so-called goddess, Semiramis, a woman of dubious parentage but great beauty, became queen of Assyria by marrying King Ninus (one of several men she married).

Later she was accused of being involved with his death.

His resurrection into the heavens was an ideal explanation for the disappearance of his body. Her motives seem to have been purely political, to gain control of the kingdom.

To placate her husband's supporters she declared him to be a god and instituted his worship. However, as the supposed god's wife and claiming celestial parentage herself, she soon became the center of worship, reducing the status of Ninus.

Her lovers, it is claimed, were buried alive all over western Asia, yet she managed to retain her role as a mother goddess.

Ishtar (another supposed incarnation of Semiramis) tried to seduce her own son, Gilgamesh, again to retain power. The picture is really one of seduction, incest and murder.

The time of year

The son of Isis, Horus was claimed to have been born Dec. 25. Forty weeks back from that (an average length of pregnancy) brings us to March 21, the vernal or spring equinox.

It is around this date that the ancient celebrations of the death and resurrection of the pagan gods were claimed to have taken place. It is also now used for the dating of Easter.

Yet God makes no mention of the equinox in relation to the timing of Passover, only of the new moon and the beginning of the spring harvest. Neither can Easter claim to be the time of Christ's conception, His birth coming in the autumn (3312 years before His death in the spring).

Duration of the festival

The length of the festival varied greatly from five days in Rome to 11 in Mesopotamia and included the ancients' New Year's festivals. Some involved a week of fasting and purification before the festival proper began.

As mentioned, the actual rites of Isis lasted one day and two nights. In Byblos the death of Adonis was mourned for two days by Venus Urania before he was resurrected and ascended into heaven, accompanied by great joy. Kybele mourned for Attis for two days before finding him and celebrating throughout the third day.

Christ's only sign of his Messiahship was that He would be in the earth (that is, buried) for three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40). As He stated that there are 12 hours in a day, then night comes (John 11:9-10), so there were 12 hours in a night, giving 24 hours in a day.

Therefore three days and three nights equals 72 hours. This clearly distinguishes Him from any of the other so-called gods of the time. The timing of the resuscitation and resurrection of Osiris exactly mirrors modern-day Easter celebrations.

Easter

The name Easter is the modern form of the Anglo-Saxon Earth Mother goddess Eostre (pronounced eestra.) Her festival was celebrated on or near the vernal (spring ) equinox

I haven't found any proof, but I suspect there is a connection between this name and the word oestrus, from which we get estrogen, the female sex hormone.

The name Eostre appears to be a corruption of Astarte, the mother goddess of the ancient Assyrians, also known as Ishtar. The worship of Astarte and her male counterpart Bel (or Baal) was introduced into Britain by the Druids. One of her titles was Frau or Lady. The date of her festival was March 25, which in some lands still bears the name Lady Day.

The word Easter appears only once in some versions of the Bible but is a mistranslation of the Greek word for Passover.

Lent and Easter eggs

Still associated with Easter and the Easter season is Lent. In Babylon Tammuz, husband of Ishtar, was killed by a wild boar, and 40 days of weeping and fasting was ordained for each of the years of his life.

His wife, Ishtar, visited the underworld and by her grief claimed to have been able to revive him. Often the fast included going without meat, poultry and dairy products, as well as eggs.

The custom of giving something up for Lent remains. Sometimes it is claimed that Lent represents Christ's 40 days of fasting before His ministry began. However, since He began His ministry around age 30 and it lasted 3 1/2 years, His fast must have taken place in the autumn. There is no indication in Scripture of any similar fast before His death.

Eggs are a long-standing symbol of creation, fertility, renewed life and resurrection. They have been used at spring festivals since ancient Egypt and Persia, when eating colored eggs was part of their rituals.

The Syrian goddess Astarte was believed to have been hatched from a huge egg that fell into the Euphrates.

Eggs were considered sacred to her and were not eaten for the period of mourning-which corresponds with Lent-for her husband, Bel. They were all eaten up before this period on what we now call Pancake Day or Shrove Tuesday (Mardi Gras) and did not appear again until the joyous celebrations of his resurrection, when they appeared in a riot of colors (the Persians dyed theirs red) and became the object of various games. That they should now be made of chocolate is, I suspect, a marketing ploy!

Hot-cross buns

Hot-cross buns are eaten throughout the spring season, but in ancient Babylon the Chaldeans used to offer them to the queen of heaven (Ishtar) on the day now known as Good Friday.

Similar wheat cakes, marked with a cross, were offered to or eaten in honor of Apollo, Diana, Hecate and the moon (the latter also being Diana's symbol).

The cross represents the four seasons, or the four phases of the moon, and are on the sacrificial bread of the lunar goddesses of many cultures. They are found from Egypt to the Aztecs of Mexico. A circle with a cross (the female symbol) was often set up on top of a pillar (representing the male)-the whole representing union or fertility. It is also interesting that the biological symbol for female remains a circle with a cross beneath.

In Jeremiah 7:18; 44:19, 25, the baking and offering of these cakes to the queen of heaven (Ishtar or Astarte) are mentioned as being part of the apostasy of the people of Judah.

Rabbits and hares

A lesser custom, at least in the United Kingdom, is the idea of the Easter Bunny. Rabbits and hares, prolific breeders, have been a symbol of fertility since antiquity. In Teutonic myth it was a hare that supposedly laid the Easter egg. Hares were the sacrificial victims of the goddess Eostre.

Sunrise services

Sunrise services are a tradition in parts of Europe and America, but not in the United Kingdom as a whole. In the North of Scotland it was supposed that the sun would dance on Easter morn for joy that the savior was risen.

The question is, Which savior? As I stated earlier, Christ was to be in the earth three days and three nights. Since He was put in the earth (buried) on a Wednesday at sunset (as a careful reading of a correct translation of Mark 12:1, Luke 23:56 and Matthew 28:1 reveals), He must have been resurrected three days and three nights later at sunset on the end of the weekly Sabbath, at the same time the wave-sheaf was being cut (Leviticus 23:10-11).

This sheaf would be offered to God the following morning. When the women arrived at Christ's tomb towards dawn on Sunday, He was already risen (Mark 16:2-6), but when he met Mary Magdalene a little later in the garden (presumably after sunrise) He had still not ascended to His Father (John 20:17).

Sun worship was one of the earliest religions. In ancient Babylonia the sun was personified as Tammuz, the returning lover of Ishtar. It was at dawn that the Egyptian Osiris rose to join the sun god in the sky. Even today in Britain Druids hold sunrise services on the summer solstice.

Sunrise has long been the traditional time for sun worship, and Ezekiel 8:16 describes such a service. As if to clarify the season, verse 14 tells us that the women were weeping for Tammuz.

We know therefore that these things occurred at the time of the death and resurrection of Tammuz; that is, at what we now call Easter.

Aphrodite in Scripture?

There is a somewhat oblique reference to Earth Mother cults in the New Testament. This is found in 2 Corinthians 6:15, where Paul asks: What agreement has Christ with Belial?

Vine's Expository New Testament gives Belial in this context as being the cult of Aphrodite. Aphrodite was the Greek equivalent of the Syrian Astarte, renowned for being promiscuous herself and the patron of prostitutes.

In Deuteronomy 12:30-32 God warns His followers not to pollute His worship with customs used to worship pagan gods.

This is wholly understandable when it is realized that most pagan celebrations have strong sexual connotations and look to the mother goddess (queen of heaven) as the supreme deity.

Easter specifically also seems to celebrate political corruption, murder and incest.

With this in mind, surely Christians should be careful to avoid being drawn into keeping customs that God has not sanctioned.

Apart from anything else, such customs may take our minds away from the realization of our need for the death and resurrection of Christ and for our reconciliation with God the Father.

Bibliography

  • Classic Ancient Mythology, Patrick and Croft.
  • The Year of the Goddess, Durdin-Robertson.
  • The Silver Bough, Vol. 2, McNeill.
  • The Aquarian Dictionary of Festivals, Cooper.
  • Myth and Mystery, Jack Finnegan.
  • Myths of Assyria and Babylonia, Mackenzie.
  • Myths of Mesopotamia, Dalley.
  • Vine's Expository New Testament.

Written by: Barbara Fenney



TOPICS: General Discusssion; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: easter; eastereggs; eggs; mythology
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Interesting read on where customs orginated.
1 posted on 04/14/2006 6:32:28 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

Not a mention of Demeter (who's golden hair falls in rich
plaits as only a goddess' does) or the Eleusinian Mystery.

Drink the Kykeon, BECOME Epoptes!


2 posted on 04/14/2006 6:42:28 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: DouglasKC
Presumably Spring festivals have been held since time immemorial.

This is not exactly news.

Not too long ago it finally dawned on me that the story about Moses being pulled from the rushes in the river was the same as the story about Sargon being pulled from the rushes in the river.

One supposes these stories derive from the characteristic of major rivers, e.g. the Nile and the Euphrates, to rise in the Spring due to rains in the uplands.

Or, the stories could be about real events.

I know people who celebrate Easter by killing a baby sheep, roasting it whole, and then eating it. Frankly, I've never appreciated the taste of mutton, nor of rabbit - just keeping my eyes out for a religious subgroup that has some sort of holiday and ceremony focused on fried squirrel.

3 posted on 04/14/2006 6:43:13 PM PDT by muawiyah (-)
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To: muawiyah
One supposes these stories derive from the characteristic of major rivers, e.g. the Nile and the Euphrates, to rise in the Spring due to rains in the uplands.
Or, the stories could be about real events.

Personally I believe that the biblical stories are true and that the pagan myths and legands that are similar are counterfeits created to discredit these events.

4 posted on 04/14/2006 6:48:40 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Why?

The pagans who "invented" the Sargon story lived a thousand years before Moses?

Were the pagans more prescient than the Jews, or modern Christians?

5 posted on 04/14/2006 6:53:37 PM PDT by muawiyah (-)
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To: DouglasKC

Shabbos. Gotta' go. See y'all tomorrow evening.


6 posted on 04/14/2006 6:56:27 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: muawiyah
Why? The pagans who "invented" the Sargon story lived a thousand years before Moses?
Were the pagans more prescient than the Jews, or modern Christians?

The power behind the pagans was Satan, the "prince of this world". Satan has the power to foresee earthly events and foresaw biblical events. He then created myths and legends to discredit and confuse these future events.

7 posted on 04/14/2006 6:58:15 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
How about this as a thesis ~ that God hears Mankind quite readily. You have but to pray, and there He is.

When it comes time for God to speak to Mankind, He is very hard to hear. For one thing, He places His messages in the hands of mere humans. Sometimes He comes in person, but in ages without good transportation systems, He really doesn't get around all that well.

So, pitiful human beings, faced with the nearly incomprehensible message from Almighty God, write it as they see it ~ and the result is a miniscule portion of the message gets through to be passed on elsewhere.

Still, anything is better than nothing ~ and God's message, in whatever form, however limited it might be, is an Amnesty from Oblivion for the human beings who get the message, and grasp it to whatever degree they are capable given their time in history, and their position in that time.

That's a little sermon based on my understanding that way beyond creating the Heavens and the Earth, all good is authored by God.

In this way Sargon's exemplary tale, first written down by the Sumerians, and known for thousands of years before by their ancestors, becomes an exemplary tale for God's own prophet on a different river in a different, and later, civilization.

I really don't quite understand this need to claim that Satan was the primary influence on the Sumerians.

8 posted on 04/14/2006 7:05:16 PM PDT by muawiyah (-)
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To: muawiyah
In this way Sargon's exemplary tale, first written down by the Sumerians, and known for thousands of years before by their ancestors, becomes an exemplary tale for God's own prophet on a different river in a different, and later, civilization.
I really don't quite understand this need to claim that Satan was the primary influence on the Sumerians.

Well, I take the bible pretty literally and believe that the orginal writings were inspired by God.

I think that God, when he chooses to reveal himself, is pretty unmistakeable, at least according to biblical accounts.

I basically agree with your thesis that God hears prayer readily, although I would qualify that by saying that he only hears the prayers of the righteous. I would agree that it's rare today for God to reveal himself so powerfully, but today i think he primarily uses scripture to speak to us.

9 posted on 04/14/2006 7:19:44 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

Interesting thing: only in the German, Norse, and English speaking worlds do they even have these types of customs.

Also: in any other language that I've seen/looked up, the holiday is known by a local transliteration of "passover"

A joyous Solemnity of the Resurrection of the Lord to you and yours!


10 posted on 04/14/2006 7:22:59 PM PDT by markomalley (Vivat Iesus!)
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To: DouglasKC
Naw, God hears everything ~ but does He care, eh?!

Right at the moment I'm wondering if God heard the "sound" of that last supernova that served to compress the blown off shell material into a band out of which planets can arise.

Pretty sure He heard it.

11 posted on 04/14/2006 7:32:14 PM PDT by muawiyah (-)
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To: DouglasKC; kerryusama04; XeniaSt
Good article....enjoyable read. Thank you Douglas. I would take exception with her timing of the Firstfruits. I believe the First Sabbath of Unleavened Bread (leviticus 23:) on the 15th of the first month would be the Sabbath preceding that spoken of in Leviticus 23:11. Consequently the Firstfruits would be on different days of the week year to year such as Passover is today. Firstfruits would then be on the 16th.

three days and three nights later at sunset on the end of the weekly Sabbath, at the same time the wave-sheaf was being cut (Leviticus 23:10-11).

12 posted on 04/14/2006 7:34:12 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: DouglasKC
Douglas isn't trying to post "interesting" information about where "Easter came from."

He is a crackpot cultist trying to tear people away from their Christian denominations so they will join his cult.

This nonsense has already been posted to multiple threads, but Doug has to continue to spread his gospel of hate, sh!tting all over people's festivities.

Hey, guess what Dougie? Pagans had sex. I guess that means Christians who have sex are committing idolatry.
And pagans had children. I guess that means Christians who have children are committing idolatry.
And pagans invented geometry, algebra and calculus. I guess that means Christians who do High School math are committing idolatry.

A brief summary of the REAL truth:

Easter eggs come from the Catholic tradition of fasting from meat during lent. They could choose when to kill their animals, and therefore not kill anything during lent, but they couldn't get their chickens to stop laying eggs during lent. So they'd save them up all Lent, and then break the fast by eating them. The ancient Jews used eggs in their passover ritual, representing new life. Why? Because they were following some pagan gods? No! Duh, because it's an obvious representation of new life.

The name "Easter" is unique to Anglo-Saxons. It's not likely to have anything to do with Eostre, directly. Rather, it's named after a month, named after a direction, named after Eostre. Eostre is a goddess of war, not of fertility as falsely claimed. There is no connection between Eostre and any of the Easter festivals. Asserting Easter is pagan is like asserting Holy Thursday is pagan, because its name stems from the Norse god of thunder, Thor. Outside of Anglo-Saxon culture, Easter is still universally known by a word stemming from "passover."

The cross on hot cross buns represents the cross. Duh.

The closest thing to pagan is the notion of the Easter Bunny. When Protestants wanted to continue the tradition of Easter eggs, they were at a loss for how to explain their significance. A common bird in Germany builds a nest very much like hares do. Many people searching for hares would come across what they presumed to be hares' nests, and found them full of eggs. So started the German notion of hares (not bunnies; that's a British morphing of the tradition) mysteriously bringing eggs.

Did other German religions create stories for why hares had eggs. You betcha. Did people create Easter Bunnies as a way of preserving pagan religions? No way.

We know for a fact that the cult of Eostre was long dead by the time Christians arrived in England, and the practices of Eostre had died with it, and those practices had nothing to do with the Easter practices.

13 posted on 04/14/2006 9:28:21 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

Just in case you missed it, this is what Doug's cult says about the time of the birth of Christ:

>>Neither can Easter claim to be the time of Christ's conception, His birth coming in the autumn (3312 years before His death in the spring).<<

He also says:

>> Yet God makes no mention of the equinox in relation to the timing of Passover, only of the new moon and the beginning of the spring harvest. <<

... and Easter starts, not in relation to the equinox, but in relation to the first new moon after the equinox. If it started in relation to the equinox, it would be on the same day every year. The lunar calendar is tied to the solar calendar by the equinoxes, so no, God didn't mention the equinoxes. But what defines a lunar month?

>> The length of the festival varied greatly from five days in Rome to 11 in Mesopotamia and included the ancients' New Year's festivals. <<

Funny. Three is less than five to 11. What's the connection.

>> Some involved a week of fasting and purification before the festival proper began. <<

Yes, fasting exists in nearly every culture. (Pagans eat; I guess eating must be pagan, too.) But how does one week of fasting relate to 40 days? It doesn't.

>> As mentioned, the actual rites of Isis lasted one day and two nights. In Byblos the death of Adonis was mourned for two days by Venus Urania before he was resurrected and ascended into heaven, accompanied by great joy. Kybele mourned for Attis for two days before finding him and celebrating throughout the third day.<<

When Jesus died, the sky turned black. Day became night. Even pagan observers wrote, bewildered at the occurence. Then daylight broke again. Then "normal night" came. Then daylight broke again. Then another normal night. Then daylight broke again. And with the break of dawn, Jesus rose from the dead. This sounds odd, but it reconciles what would otherwise be a conflict in the scriptures: some places say he rose on the third day. Others said he would rise after three days. But "on the third day," means at most two days.

>> Easter specifically also seems to celebrate political corruption, murder and incest. <<

Huh? I'll leave it up to y'all to decide if your Easter observances celebrate corruption, murder and incest.


14 posted on 04/14/2006 9:47:02 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

Where does the date of Easter come from? Well, since it NEVER falls as early as March 21, that's an odd explanation that Doug has. And of course, there's no historical record of when Jesus was born. But we actually do know when he died: March 25th (or April 6th, according to the Julian calendar, IIRC). So figure Easter was on the third day after that, and you get March 27th.

But the li'l cultist isn't completely off the mark, for the dates of Easter and Christmas are, in fact, related. It was a commonly held notion of the ancient Jews that great prophets died on the day of their conception. Hence, March 25th (and NOT March 21st!) is also held by the Catholic Church to be the date of the conception of Jesus. Count nine months forward, and you get to December 25th. (40 weeks was a little advanced for a primitive culture which could not detect the moment of conception. So, they counted estrous cycles, starting from the skipped one.)

Now it so happens that December 25th is also the date of the re-dedication of Solomon's Temple. Now, if a Protestant wants to reject the book of Maccabees which explains this in detail, I can't stop him. But, for the record, this is the Feast of the Dedication, which *IS* in Protestant bibles. Now, the temple was held to be the divine presence of God dwelling among Man. Jesus claimed HE was the temple. So again, it's a good guess (albeit hardly proof) that he was born on Dec. 25th. A good enough guess anyway that in the absence of any concrete knowledge, the early Christians could suppose it was then better than any other date.

Was Jesus born in the fall? I've never heard that. Usually, I've heard he was born in the Spring. This notion is based on the fact that the shepherds were in the fields, keeping night watch over their flock (Luke 2)... and supposedly they would only do that in the Spring. Sorry, but I've heard too many cases wherein bible "experts" asserted what the ancient Jews would or would not have done... and they've almost always been proven wrong. But maybe he was born in the Spring. Or the fall. Big deal... we know why the early Christians supposed he was born in December; even if thet were wrong, their reasoning was still pius.


15 posted on 04/14/2006 10:03:41 PM PDT by dangus
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To: DouglasKC
There are plenty of them around, that's for sure.

Easter is about the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Nothing else. It has nothing to do with passover, which is mainly about the Exodus of Jews from Egypt. It is not a "change from passover to easter".

Passover rarely even falls at the same time because it's based on the 15th day of the Jewish calender month of Nissan.

16 posted on 04/14/2006 11:40:54 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: muawiyah
"When it comes time for God to speak to Mankind, He is very hard to hear. For one thing, He places His messages in the hands of mere humans."<"i>

He places his messages in the Word. He's very easy to hear through his word.

"Sargon's exemplary tale first written down by the Sumerians, and known for thousands of years before by their ancestors"

Is written nowhere. Thousands of years of ancestors? Where did they come from? How did they survive the flood?

17 posted on 04/14/2006 11:52:17 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: muawiyah
"I'm wondering if God heard the "sound" of that last supernova that served to compress the blown off shell material into a band out of which planets can arise.

Pretty sure He heard it. I doubt he heard fictional theories. Besides, sound doesn't travel in space.

Anything 'blowing up' would not form planets, no matter how many billions of years you give it. All those little particles would be drawn to the sun. tiny particles all moving at different rates would never gather together and form planets. they would just bounce off each other. The laws of gravity apply, and the laws of gravity in the presence of a large body such as the sun apply as well.

You are just going to have to accept the fact that God created the universe and everything in it.

Nothing can't explode and make something. Nor can a random explosion achieve perfect balance. It's beyond impossible billions of times over.

God told you how and why he created the universe. He created it using his own energy, converting it to matter and spread it out. He created it for a single purpose, to create us.

18 posted on 04/15/2006 12:11:23 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: DouglasKC
Might be more interesting if it avoided some obvious errors:

The name Easter is the modern form of the Anglo-Saxon Earth Mother goddess Eostre (pronounced eestra.) Her festival was celebrated on or near the vernal (spring ) equinox

This might be relevant if Easter originated in Anglo Saxon and if almost all other languages didn't use variations of Pascha (from passover) as the name of the holiday.

But it didn't and they do. This is a very sloppy piece of work: agenda posing as scholarship.

19 posted on 04/15/2006 1:09:09 AM PDT by D-fendr
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To: dangus
One thing I've always noticed about Doug's post is that he always backs up his theology with scripture. In this particular instance these customs, superstitions and traditions have nothing to do with scripture.

Is this....He is a crackpot cultist trying to tear people away from their Christian denominations so they will join his cult .....the best you can do? Can't you quote anything Biblical to support your position? You sound very angry.

20 posted on 04/15/2006 8:30:54 AM PDT by Diego1618
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To: Diego1618

Actually, there is one single verbatim scripture quote in the entire post. All he does is say that such-is-such is what some verse really meant. For instance, he claims that Jesus died on a Wednesday, and provides three apparent scripture references, based on an insistence that Passover was on a Thursday, not on a Friday.

The simple explanation: Jesus did, in fact, celebrate Passover earlier than the Pharisees did, as there WAS a disagreement as to how to count the days.

The Pharisees' passover began on Friday evening. This was the passover that they were trying to get Jesus dead by. Jesus, following the Essenses (as references to the way he celebrated it make clear), celebrated the passover, beginning on a Thursday evening; and died on the day of that passover (Friday day), and not on the day of preparation for that passover, (Wednesday day).

No need to join any cults that declare 99.999999% of all Christians throughout history to be idolators.


21 posted on 04/15/2006 9:27:07 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Diego1618

... but then, you've been following Doug around from thread to thread for so long, affirming his wacko cult, haven't you?

If anyone thinks I'm being harsh calling them a wacko cult, I appeal to you to observe that during this holiest of holy times, Diego and Doug are accusing (through the sum total of their deceptively scattered posts) all the great saints, and pretty much every Christian you've ever known of loved, to be hell-bound idolators. Just a little doubt sown here, a little there, and the entire Christian church is under attack. Please note this:

>> Neither can Easter claim to be the time of Christ's conception, His birth coming in the autumn (3312 years before His death in the spring). <<

Where, oh, where is the biblical basis that Christ was born 3312 years before his crucifixion? Why were there people who, at the time of his ministry, clearly remembered his birth?

Diego and Doug are not Christian. They are tools of Satan, having come to spawn division and confusion among Christians.


22 posted on 04/15/2006 10:06:01 AM PDT by dangus
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To: DouglasKC

Give it a rest for a few days. It was Good Friday when you posted this. Focus on the death and resurrection of Christ.


23 posted on 04/15/2006 10:06:41 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: DouglasKC

Give it a rest for a few days. It was Good Friday when you posted this. Focus on the death and resurrection of Christ.


24 posted on 04/15/2006 10:08:17 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: dangus
Douglas isn't trying to post "interesting" information about where "Easter came from." He is a crackpot cultist trying to tear people away from their Christian denominations so they will join his cult.
This nonsense has already been posted to multiple threads, but Doug has to continue to spread his gospel of hate, sh!tting all over people's festivities.

I do seem like a crackpot cultist to you...and that's okay. You think I am because you do not accept the word of God, but instead embrace that which is not of God. You reject God's holy days which are clearly outlined by the God of the universe and accept your own holidays, which are clearly manmade in origin and steeped with pagan customs and traditions. . You can't handle the truth, so you lash out with anger and ridicule.

I will gladly point out that these "festivals" are just that, festivals masquerading as real holy days.

Deu 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
Deu 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

25 posted on 04/15/2006 11:11:57 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Nathan Zachary
Easter is about the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Nothing else. It has nothing to do with passover, which is mainly about the Exodus of Jews from Egypt. It is not a "change from passover to easter".

Passover is the day that Christ was killed for our sins. It is the day that Christ specifically told his followers to remember his sacrifice on. Most of the Christian world has rejected Passover in favor of the the manmade tradition of Easter. Furthermore, the religious world mixes with the secular, which embraces idolatrous symbols, in celebrating Easter.

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

26 posted on 04/15/2006 11:19:02 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

So you admit your agenda. Fine. Let everyone read, however, that you weren't posting it simply because you found it interesting, but because you were advancing the agenda of your cult.

We all believe it's bad to commit idolatry. Where you are a crackpot is in reaching the conclusion that there is some biblical basis for establishing that Easter Sunday is idolatry because somehow the Christian Church was unanimously deceived into celebrating the festival of an Anglo-Saxon goddess, centuries before they set foot in the land she was worshipped in, and centuries after all worship of her ceased. Yet you promote the bizarre notion that Jesus walked the Earth for over 3000 years.

P.S. I'm not talking TO you; I'm talking ABOUT you.


27 posted on 04/15/2006 11:29:26 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
>> Neither can Easter claim to be the time of Christ's conception, His birth coming in the autumn (3312 years before His death in the spring). << Where, oh, where is the biblical basis that Christ was born 3312 years before his crucifixion? Why were there people who, at the time of his ministry, clearly remembered his birth?

You know...I think maybe they mean 33 1/2 years. I could be wrong.

You still sound angry.

28 posted on 04/15/2006 11:39:51 AM PDT by Diego1618
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To: dangus; Diego1618
If anyone thinks I'm being harsh calling them a wacko cult, I appeal to you to observe that during this holiest of holy times,

This is a holy time, but only by coincidence. We are in the 7 day period of the feast of unleavened bread, one of God's ordained feast periods:

Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 In the first day ye shall have a holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Lev 23:8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is a holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

Only God can make something holy. Easter and Good Friday are manmade inventions and thus are not holy.

Diego and Doug are accusing (through the sum total of their deceptively scattered posts) all the great saints, and pretty much every Christian you've ever known of loved, to be hell-bound idolators. Just a little doubt sown here, a little there, and the entire Christian church is under attack. Please note this:

I haven't, and I know diego hasn't, accused any Christian of being "hell-bound". I think most Christians are sincere, but misguided. I think that those who are celebrating pagan holidays are mostly ignorant of scripture and are immersed in a satanic deception, but I'm confident that the truth of God will win out in the end.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

>> Neither can Easter claim to be the time of Christ's conception, His birth coming in the autumn (3312 years before His death in the spring). <<
Where, oh, where is the biblical basis that Christ was born 3312 years before his crucifixion? Why were there people who, at the time of his ministry, clearly remembered his birth?

Ummmm...I'm fairly sure that's a typo. The author probably had written 33 1/2 years before his death in the spring.

Diego and Doug are not Christian.

I know for a fact that I'm a Christian. I was baptized into the body of Christ and have had hands laid on me for the imparting of God's spirit. I can't say for sure whether diego is or not because I've never discussed it with him. But surely he has God working in his life because he has a great understanding of scripture and seems to have Godly character.

They are tools of Satan, having come to spawn division and confusion among Christians.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I believe that Jesus is the messiah. He came to earth in the flesh and died for our sins.

1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is the first born of God. He sits on the right hand of God on his throne.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

29 posted on 04/15/2006 11:43:09 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: dangus
We all believe it's bad to commit idolatry. Where you are a crackpot is in reaching the conclusion that there is some biblical basis for establishing that Easter Sunday is idolatry because somehow the Christian Church was unanimously deceived into celebrating the festival of an Anglo-Saxon goddess, centuries before they set foot in the land she was worshipped in, and centuries after all worship of her ceased. Yet you promote the bizarre notion that Jesus walked the Earth for over 3000 years.

It's a typo, as pointed out in the last two posts. 33 1/2 years is what the author probably meant. Sorry you couldn't see that.

30 posted on 04/15/2006 11:45:20 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: dangus
So you admit your agenda. Fine. Let everyone read, however, that you weren't posting it simply because you found it interesting, but because you were advancing the agenda of your cult.

My "agenda" is this:

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

That's all.

31 posted on 04/15/2006 11:48:03 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: dangus; Diego1618

No need to join any cults that declare 99.999999% of all Christians throughout history to be idolators.

21 posted on 04/15/2006 10:27:07 AM MDT by dangus

Y'shua said :

Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do
to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and
broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life,
and only a few find it.

b'shem Y'shua
32 posted on 04/15/2006 12:18:27 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings)
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To: Nathan Zachary

How did anyone conduct civilization "before the Flood". Certainly you do not dispute the existence of civilization at that time.


33 posted on 04/15/2006 12:21:47 PM PDT by muawiyah (-)
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To: DouglasKC
I think most Christians are sincere, but misguided.

And I think you're a nice guy but completely wacko with some esoteric mumbo-jumbo.

34 posted on 04/15/2006 12:23:30 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: Nathan Zachary
Gee whiz, guy, they found a ring of debris that's busy coalescing into planets AROUND the remains of a relatively recent super nova.

Seems that when the core collapses and material falls in, it compresses enough to carry sound, albeit on a vast scale.

Sound travels through that material. Then, when the infalling material is then blasted out into space by reactions at the core, it eventually reaches a point where it is not dense enough to carry sound waves.

Uhhh, you did understand that stars carry sound. Right?

35 posted on 04/15/2006 12:24:36 PM PDT by muawiyah (-)
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To: D-fendr
I think most Christians are sincere, but misguided. And I think you're a nice guy but completely wacko with some esoteric mumbo-jumbo.

I'll take that. I used to think it was pretty weird too. But once you accept the fact that God really, truly did create holy days and called them "his" you begin to see that the man made ones are cheap imitations.

36 posted on 04/15/2006 12:30:18 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

If you're going to be jewish, then be jewish.


37 posted on 04/15/2006 12:36:57 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: DouglasKC

Boo. Hiss. Garbage article without any historical veracity.


38 posted on 04/15/2006 12:37:51 PM PDT by Maeve (Chaplet of the Divine Mercy)
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To: D-fendr
If you're going to be jewish, then be jewish.

Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

These are the feasts of the Lord, Jesus Christ. They are the same feasts he observed while on earth:

Joh 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

They are the same feasts kept by Paul and the same one's Paul told his congregations to keep:

1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Being Jewish has nothing to do with it.

39 posted on 04/15/2006 12:45:10 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Maeve
Boo. Hiss. Garbage article without any historical veracity.

Everyone's a critic....:-)

40 posted on 04/15/2006 12:45:58 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

Yes, Jesus was a jew and his earliest disciples were jews.

So, you gonna be a jew too?

Or are you simply lost in the time warp?


41 posted on 04/15/2006 12:56:52 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: D-fendr
Yes, Jesus was a jew and his earliest disciples were jews.
So, you gonna be a jew too?
Or are you simply lost in the time warp?

Actually Jesus and his followers made a significant break with the Jewish religion of the time. Like Christianity today, Judaism had come to rely more upon it's own traditions rather than scripture:

Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

There are many more examples. The Jewish hierarchy of the day rejected Christ and persecuted his followers. Paul says:

1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God

Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it

Today's Jews are descendent's of those Jews who persecuted the church of God.

Observing God's holy days has nothing to do with being Jewish.

42 posted on 04/15/2006 1:03:41 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

Ah.. A member of the Time Warp Church.

What's the name of the group you follow and who started it?


43 posted on 04/15/2006 1:10:13 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: D-fendr
Ah.. A member of the Time Warp Church.

If you mean that I follow scripture rather than tradition then I plead guilty...gladly.


What's the name of the group you follow and who started it?

I follow Jesus Christ. The group is the body of Christ, or the church of God as it's called in scripture. I fellowship with and attend services with United Church of God

. It was formed as a corporate entity in 1995 and was started by a large group of ministers who were formerly associated with the World Wide Church of God. They left when the WWCG began to teach non-scriptural doctrines, such as the violation of the 4th commandment.

How about you? What's the name of the group you follow and who started it?

44 posted on 04/15/2006 1:17:56 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

I'm quite familiar with WWCG. I live not far from what used to be their college campus. And a close friend of mine went through the break-up and fragmentation of the church. Armstrong basically put his own spin on the old debate of how jewish should Christianty be? It's an attractive formulation.

You realize, no, likely you don't, that the debate on how "jewish" christianity should be was a major one in the decades after Christ's crucifixion.

It was thought, or hoped, by many apostles that Judaism would become Judaism with Christ. However, the bulk of jews did not follow, and even threw out the Christian ministers. Now what were they to be?

So, jewish or gentile, how much or how little was a decision and a turning point for Christianity. It could no longer be Judaism with Christ as it was when He was alive.

Orthodoxy can be seen as answering this question - among others including the nature of Christ in monotheism.

Some wish to go back to that time, when Christ was a jew and Christians were observant jews who believed in Christ.

But you cannot go back, cannot freeze time and pretend the decision doesn't exist. Hence I call them "The Church of the Time Warp."

To answer your question: The group I follow is called the Catholic Church and it was started by Jesus of Nazareth.


45 posted on 04/15/2006 1:44:58 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: DouglasKC

"Satan has the power to foresee earthly events and foresaw biblical events."

Where in the Bible did you get this information from? Only God can see the future. Satan can only guess. That's why God says you will know a true prophet of God from a false prophet is that EVERY prophecy he makes comes true, but a false prophet (from Satan) will only have only a very few come true because he is only guessing.


46 posted on 04/15/2006 1:55:23 PM PDT by Iam1ru1-2
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To: D-fendr
You realize, no, likely you don't, that the debate on how "jewish" christianity should be was a major one in the decades after Christ's crucifixion.

Oh yes, I'm pretty familiar with the reasoning behind why these decisions were made. I don't agree with them.

It was thought, or hoped, by many apostles that Judaism would become Judaism with Christ. However, the bulk of jews did not follow, and even threw out the Christian ministers. Now what were they to be?

I'm afraid that you're under the impression that I'm advocating Judaism. I think you may even be under the impression that Judaism today adheres to scripture more than tradition.

Orthodoxy can be seen as answering this question - among others including the nature of Christ in monotheism.

Unfortunately orthodoxy went to far.

Some wish to go back to that time, when Christ was a jew and Christians were observant jews who believed in Christ. But you cannot go back, cannot freeze time and pretend the decision doesn't exist. Hence I call them "The Church of the Time Warp."

Nonsense. Rome doesn't have a monopoly on God or how God is worshipped. Scripture shows how God wants to be worshipped.

To answer your question: The group I follow is called the Catholic Church and it was started by Jesus of Nazareth.

My usual practice is not to engage in debate with those who claim membership in the Catholic church. We have no common ground. I believe that God speaks to his people through scripture. My understanding is that tradition can supercede scripture in the Catholic church. I know it has on the sabbath issue. In other words tradition plays as much a part in what you believe as scripture does. Tradition is great, but when it disagrees with scripture I'm sticking with scripture.

47 posted on 04/15/2006 6:26:06 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Iam1ru1-2
"Satan has the power to foresee earthly events and foresaw biblical events."
Where in the Bible did you get this information from? Only God can see the future. Satan can only guess. That's why God says you will know a true prophet of God from a false prophet is that EVERY prophecy he makes comes true, but a false prophet (from Satan) will only have only a very few come true because he is only guessing.

Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness because he knew what his plan was. If not, there as no reason to tempt him.

Another interesting case in the bible was this encounter with demons:

Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

This indicates that demons know their fate on judgment day:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Are demons all powerful and able to tell all the future? Maybe, maybe not. But they know enough to trick people into using them for such things as fortune telling, seances and what not.

48 posted on 04/15/2006 6:33:41 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Oh yes, I'm pretty familiar with the reasoning behind why these decisions were made. I don't agree with them.

Yes, you would agree more with the side that were called "Judaizers."

Unfortunately orthodoxy went to far.

Yes, that's what they would say.

I'm afraid that you're under the impression that I'm advocating Judaism.

No, just the Judaism at the time of Christ - something that cannot be unless one can, or tries to, freeze time.

My understanding is that tradition can supercede scripture in the Catholic church.

Not supercede. They both share the same source.

Tradition is great, but when it disagrees with scripture I'm sticking with scripture.

Yes, that's what one does according to your tradition.

However, disagreement is in the eyes of the beholder. For example, in my eyes, your sola scriptura disagrees. And you follow your tradition instead of scripture in this case.

49 posted on 04/15/2006 6:37:47 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: D-fendr
Yes, you would agree more with the side that were called "Judaizers."

Nope. What you call "Judaizers" were those who wanted to impose all the Pharasetical, non-biblical rules and regulation that had accumulated over the centuries.

No, just the Judaism at the time of Christ - something that cannot be unless one can, or tries to, freeze time.

Not correct. Christ didn't even agree with the Judaism of the time:

Mar 7:2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
Mar 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
Mar 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brazen vessels, and of tables.
Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoreth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

This are the "Judaizers" you're worried about, not those who follow the commandments of God in scripture. You're failing to discern the difference.

50 posted on 04/15/2006 6:50:07 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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