Posted on 04/14/2006 6:32:26 PM PDT by DouglasKC
Yes, Jesus was a jew and his earliest disciples were jews.
So, you gonna be a jew too?
Or are you simply lost in the time warp?
Actually Jesus and his followers made a significant break with the Jewish religion of the time. Like Christianity today, Judaism had come to rely more upon it's own traditions rather than scripture:
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
There are many more examples. The Jewish hierarchy of the day rejected Christ and persecuted his followers. Paul says:
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God
Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it
Today's Jews are descendent's of those Jews who persecuted the church of God.
Observing God's holy days has nothing to do with being Jewish.
Ah.. A member of the Time Warp Church.
What's the name of the group you follow and who started it?
If you mean that I follow scripture rather than tradition then I plead guilty...gladly.
What's the name of the group you follow and who started it?
I follow Jesus Christ. The group is the body of Christ, or the church of God as it's called in scripture. I fellowship with and attend services with United Church of God
. It was formed as a corporate entity in 1995 and was started by a large group of ministers who were formerly associated with the World Wide Church of God. They left when the WWCG began to teach non-scriptural doctrines, such as the violation of the 4th commandment.
How about you? What's the name of the group you follow and who started it?
I'm quite familiar with WWCG. I live not far from what used to be their college campus. And a close friend of mine went through the break-up and fragmentation of the church. Armstrong basically put his own spin on the old debate of how jewish should Christianty be? It's an attractive formulation.
You realize, no, likely you don't, that the debate on how "jewish" christianity should be was a major one in the decades after Christ's crucifixion.
It was thought, or hoped, by many apostles that Judaism would become Judaism with Christ. However, the bulk of jews did not follow, and even threw out the Christian ministers. Now what were they to be?
So, jewish or gentile, how much or how little was a decision and a turning point for Christianity. It could no longer be Judaism with Christ as it was when He was alive.
Orthodoxy can be seen as answering this question - among others including the nature of Christ in monotheism.
Some wish to go back to that time, when Christ was a jew and Christians were observant jews who believed in Christ.
But you cannot go back, cannot freeze time and pretend the decision doesn't exist. Hence I call them "The Church of the Time Warp."
To answer your question: The group I follow is called the Catholic Church and it was started by Jesus of Nazareth.
"Satan has the power to foresee earthly events and foresaw biblical events."
Where in the Bible did you get this information from? Only God can see the future. Satan can only guess. That's why God says you will know a true prophet of God from a false prophet is that EVERY prophecy he makes comes true, but a false prophet (from Satan) will only have only a very few come true because he is only guessing.
Oh yes, I'm pretty familiar with the reasoning behind why these decisions were made. I don't agree with them.
It was thought, or hoped, by many apostles that Judaism would become Judaism with Christ. However, the bulk of jews did not follow, and even threw out the Christian ministers. Now what were they to be?
I'm afraid that you're under the impression that I'm advocating Judaism. I think you may even be under the impression that Judaism today adheres to scripture more than tradition.
Orthodoxy can be seen as answering this question - among others including the nature of Christ in monotheism.
Unfortunately orthodoxy went to far.
Some wish to go back to that time, when Christ was a jew and Christians were observant jews who believed in Christ. But you cannot go back, cannot freeze time and pretend the decision doesn't exist. Hence I call them "The Church of the Time Warp."
Nonsense. Rome doesn't have a monopoly on God or how God is worshipped. Scripture shows how God wants to be worshipped.
To answer your question: The group I follow is called the Catholic Church and it was started by Jesus of Nazareth.
My usual practice is not to engage in debate with those who claim membership in the Catholic church. We have no common ground. I believe that God speaks to his people through scripture. My understanding is that tradition can supercede scripture in the Catholic church. I know it has on the sabbath issue. In other words tradition plays as much a part in what you believe as scripture does. Tradition is great, but when it disagrees with scripture I'm sticking with scripture.
Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness because he knew what his plan was. If not, there as no reason to tempt him.
Another interesting case in the bible was this encounter with demons:
Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
This indicates that demons know their fate on judgment day:
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Are demons all powerful and able to tell all the future? Maybe, maybe not. But they know enough to trick people into using them for such things as fortune telling, seances and what not.
Yes, you would agree more with the side that were called "Judaizers."
Unfortunately orthodoxy went to far.
Yes, that's what they would say.
I'm afraid that you're under the impression that I'm advocating Judaism.
No, just the Judaism at the time of Christ - something that cannot be unless one can, or tries to, freeze time.
My understanding is that tradition can supercede scripture in the Catholic church.
Not supercede. They both share the same source.
Tradition is great, but when it disagrees with scripture I'm sticking with scripture.
Yes, that's what one does according to your tradition.
However, disagreement is in the eyes of the beholder. For example, in my eyes, your sola scriptura disagrees. And you follow your tradition instead of scripture in this case.
Nope. What you call "Judaizers" were those who wanted to impose all the Pharasetical, non-biblical rules and regulation that had accumulated over the centuries.
No, just the Judaism at the time of Christ - something that cannot be unless one can, or tries to, freeze time.
Not correct. Christ didn't even agree with the Judaism of the time:
Mar 7:2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
Mar 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
Mar 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brazen vessels, and of tables.
Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoreth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
This are the "Judaizers" you're worried about, not those who follow the commandments of God in scripture. You're failing to discern the difference.
Do you think Pharisees were the only jews at the time? Or the Sadducees? Far far from it.
I don't think that at all. But I do think that they were the ones that were primarily what you called "Judaizers", the ones who persecuted the church of God.
But to say Jesus disagreed with Judaism is a bit silly I think.
Easter Eggs for Geeks...
http://www.eeggs.com/
http://www.pcworld.com/howto/article/0,aid,109378,00.asp
I'm wondering about - as far as your particular offshoot - whether you still follow the other teachings of Armstrong.
I believe the current larger group has dropped the Arianism bits and I know you're keeping the Seventh-day teaching.
How about the Armstrong's Anglo-Israelism and Pyramidology? Is that gone for your group also?
No it's not. He disagreed strongly with what had become the predominant religion of what claimed to be the religion of the true God. Most importantly, he didn't disagree with anything that was scriptural, such as the holy days or the sabbath, but only the traditions and attitudes of those who practiced it.
No, no, no. Gosh no. Not the Pharisees at all. I'm using the term as it's used in Christian history. These were Christians who believed that gentile followers of Jesus needed to become Jewish proselytes and observe the requirements of Judaism.
First of all I would disagree that Armstrong created anything new. For example, most of the doctrine he espoused can be found in the writings of people throughout the centuries. For example, E.W. Bulling printed "The Companion Bible" in the late 1910's (I believe). It is essentially a study bible. His notes echo many of the doctrines that Armstrong later was led to.
Armstrongs greatest work was to publish and preach the gospel. I think his organization was effective in that regard, but was lacking in fulfilling the spiritual needs of those under his care. I don't think that was his fault, but was more of a function of people trying to gain power within the organization.
As far as beliefs, United publishes The United States and Great Britain in Bible Prophecy which does propose that the descendents of Israel exist today primarily as the people of Great Britain and the United States. I think it makes sense.
I wasn't aware that Armstrong embraced Pyramidology and don't recall ever reading about it either. In either case, United doesn't have any doctrine concerning it.
The booklet Fundamental Beliefs should address any other doctrinal questions you have.
I'd call 1910 "new," but I maybe I'm picky.
Is your group not aligned with this one: http://www.wcg.org ?
Who were originally of the Pharisaic sect and still considered their allegiance to the beliefs of the sect for salvation rather than the the sacrifice of Christ.
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
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