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Judas Saves;Why the lost gospel makes sense.
Slate ^ | April 13, 2006 | Christopher Hitchens

Posted on 04/15/2006 7:21:06 PM PDT by Lorianne

I don't normally mind offending holy men, but I can remember feeling absolutely aghast at the injured look that spread across the fine features of the Coptic Archbishop of Eritrea as we sat in his quarters in Asmara in 1993. Was it true, I had asked him, that in the Coptic Christian tradition Judas was considered to be a saint? He jumped like a pea on a hot shovel and, when he had regained his composure, demanded to know how I could possibly have heard such a wicked rumor. Nothing more profane could be imagined than this perversion of the Easter story. (Looking back, I think I may have misunderstood something I read in Graham Greene.)

Nonetheless, the idea of a sacred Judas always seemed rational to me, at least in Christian terms. The New Testament tells us firmly that Jesus went to Jerusalem at Passover to die and to fulfill certain ancient prophecies by doing so. How could any agent of this process, witting or unwitting, be acting other than according to the divine will? It did seem odd to me that the Jewish elders and the Romans required someone to identify Jesus for them, since according to the story he was already a rather well-known figure, but that was a secondary objection.

(Excerpt) Read more at slate.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events
KEYWORDS: antichristian; atheism; christianbashing; christianity; christians; controversy; easter; gospelofjudas; history; hitchens; judas; liberalbigot; mediabias; mockingfaith; religion; religiousintolerance; slatedotcom; theology

1 posted on 04/15/2006 7:21:07 PM PDT by Lorianne
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To: Lorianne

Old Hitch, stirring the pot again for mischievious reasons.


2 posted on 04/15/2006 7:23:09 PM PDT by spyone
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To: Lorianne

yeah, people will do anything to convince us the bible as we know it is wrong, or incomplete, or translated badly. people run so hard to escape the reality that doesn't fit their life choices.


3 posted on 04/15/2006 7:24:03 PM PDT by driftdiver
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To: Lorianne

Taken from the article "Two millennia of stupidity and cruelty and superstition dissolve in an instant when we notice that even some early believers were shrewd enough to see though the whole sham. On this weekend of official piety, let us all therefore give thanks for our deliverance from religion,"

So if the source being slate wasn't enough of a clue this pretty much proves its a worthless article. An intolerant person spreading their hate. ( to use their terminology)

The pedigree of this "finding" is also suspect since it spent many years in questionable hands. The group credited with writing this document are well known among bible scholors and rarely given much credence.


4 posted on 04/15/2006 7:29:30 PM PDT by driftdiver
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To: Lorianne

The entire question of whether Judas was in a back handed way doing God's 'dirty work' is a subset of a much larger question to which we will never have the answer on this side.

Theodicy.

What is the role of evil in the Divine Plan ?


5 posted on 04/15/2006 7:33:40 PM PDT by Sam the Sham (A conservative party tough on illegal immigration could carry California in 2008)
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To: driftdiver

Take it from the source: Hitchens is a man who sees what he wants to see...especially when it comes to spiritual things. Look what he's said about Mother Teresa.


6 posted on 04/15/2006 7:57:04 PM PDT by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Lorianne

This and the Da Vinci Code will lead many astray. It's all lies designed to undermine Christianity!!


7 posted on 04/15/2006 8:04:07 PM PDT by Fruit of the Spirit
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To: Lorianne
The New Testament tells us firmly that Jesus went to Jerusalem at Passover to die and to fulfill certain ancient prophecies by doing so.

It's also in the Old Testament, notably in the early chapters of the Book of Genesis.

8 posted on 04/15/2006 8:08:48 PM PDT by BigSkyFreeper (There is no alternative to the GOP except varying degrees of insanity.)
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To: Sam the Sham
Theodicy

Chris Hitchens is a theodiot.

9 posted on 04/15/2006 8:11:16 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 4:5)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

"Take it from the source: Hitchens is a man who sees what he wants to see"

I'm not familiar with his writing so if this is an example I evidently haven't missed much.


10 posted on 04/15/2006 8:18:03 PM PDT by driftdiver
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To: driftdiver

He will come out from time to time and call looney leftwing behavior looney on some issues, but he has a hard time understanding the true motives behind committed spiritual people.


11 posted on 04/15/2006 8:23:54 PM PDT by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Lorianne

It takes a neo-pagan to know a old pagan. What barf!


12 posted on 04/15/2006 8:37:33 PM PDT by AZhardliner
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To: spyone

Hitch is an idiot. He can't decipher between knowing the future and forcing it to happen.

Cheap shot for the sake of it. As he doesn't mind offending hoy men, I hope he makes a tour of the Islamic world soon.


13 posted on 04/15/2006 8:50:34 PM PDT by SampleMan
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To: Sam the Sham

A much more interesting lesson about Judas is, "Why?"

Judas had seen the miracles. The money was really no great sum, and he couldn't bring himself to keep it. So why?

The best explanation that I've heard, is that Judas truly did believe that Jesus was the Christ. His betrayal was designed to force Jesus' hand. In essence, he had a vision of what the Christ was to be, and he wanted to force Jesus into this role. The role of an earthly king, who would throw off Roman rule.

Judas could not ultimately accept God on God's terms. It is instructive as well that unlike Peter, Judas did not repent for his failings, despite knowing that he had failed.


14 posted on 04/15/2006 8:58:14 PM PDT by SampleMan
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To: Sam the Sham
The entire question of whether Judas was in a back handed way doing God's 'dirty work' is a subset of a much larger question to which we will never have the answer on this side.

Theodicy.

****

What is the role of evil in the Divine Plan?

In the Garden of Eden Lucifer Tempted Eve which Heavenly Father predicted would happen for Evil always trys to spoil good!

The Garden of Eden was a kingdom where one could stay for ever or if they violated the laws of the kingdom they would have to vacate!

So once Adam and Eve paetaken of the tree of Good and Evil they were in danger of eating from the tree of Life!

Which means they could not be tested and would be in the garden for ever, never to be able to have joy nor procreate!

***

Even Jesus had to be tested and Satin did that and Jesus honored the Father so Satin could not cause Jesus to stumble

The world of evil operates on "The End Justifies the Means!"

But as a Child of God I know that my Heavenly Father nor the Son Jesus Christ uses those methods!

What I am saying is at no time did Jesus nor the Heavenly Father have an prearrangement with Judas!

Heavenly Father know all our hearts and minds, yet we come to earth to prove ourselves worthy or an unfaithful servant!

Many over comes weakness and grow in the ways of the Lord, some will always be the Sons of Perdition!

15 posted on 04/15/2006 9:16:58 PM PDT by restornu (Sick Birds don't fly far, Dead Birds don't fly- Bird Flu Hype.com)
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To: Sam the Sham

As far as Judas goes I like to think he had a conscience afterwards and was very ashamed he was used by the Devil and that is why he retrun his 30 pieces of Silver and ended up in Potter Field!

****

Matt. 27: 3
3 ¶ Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Matt. 27: 5
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Matt. 27: 6
6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.




16 posted on 04/15/2006 9:23:54 PM PDT by restornu (Sick Birds don't fly far, Dead Birds don't fly- Bird Flu Hype.com)
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To: spyone

Good commentator, but nutty and bad when he gets on his Christian rants ... I'm not going to bother.


17 posted on 04/15/2006 9:57:38 PM PDT by WOSG (http://freedomstruth.blogspot.com/)
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To: Lorianne
So Christianity couldn't have formed and perpetuated without Judas.

And America couldn't have been founded without Christianity.

So?

18 posted on 04/15/2006 10:07:44 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: Lorianne

I read the New Yorker article by Adam Gopnik on this, and just by his relating what is in this "gospel" (ignoring his commentary), it is obvious that it is more of the same old Gnostic stuff -- salvation by knowledge instead of grace, with a big ol' helping of wild-eyed "gods" and so forth thrown in. I am really a bit surprised at Hitch and his take on this. The Gnostics were interesting as a sect, but I believe their stuff was all thrown at at the Coucil of Nicaea. This new "gospel" is interesting historically, but how could you possibly regard it as part of the original story? Stick to commenting on the war effort, Hitch....


19 posted on 04/15/2006 10:39:25 PM PDT by Hetty_Fauxvert (Kelo must GO!! ..... http://sonoma-moderate.blogspot.com/)
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To: SampleMan

"Judas could not ultimately accept God on God's terms. It is instructive as well that unlike Peter, Judas did not repent for his failings, despite knowing that he had failed."

****

Scripture says different...

Matt. 27: 3
3 ¶ Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Matt. 27: 5
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.


20 posted on 04/16/2006 1:14:27 AM PDT by restornu (Sick Birds don't fly far, Dead Birds don't fly- Bird Flu Hype.com)
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To: Lorianne
OK, well, I'm going to issue a fatwa on Hutchins. Of course, since Christianity isn't the death cult Islam is it just means we should pray for him.
21 posted on 04/16/2006 1:28:16 AM PDT by highlander_UW (I don't know what my future holds, but I know Who holds my future)
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To: Lorianne

What is a greater question is this.

Judas was called a disciple, was sent out with the 40 and was given kingdom authority to cast out demons.

Yet he has fallen from grace, how doest this affect the 5 pointers out there?


22 posted on 04/16/2006 1:56:32 AM PDT by John 6.66=Mark of the Beast?
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To: SampleMan

Judas died alone how does one know that at that last moment he did not repent and call out God?

Only God knows


23 posted on 04/16/2006 2:30:24 AM PDT by John 6.66=Mark of the Beast?
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To: restornu
Happy, glorious Easter.

I don't want to get into a religious debate on Easter, so let me begin by saying you may be right about Judas' redemption, and let's hope you are.

But "redemption" in the context used does not correlate to religious redemption from God. Indeed no one can redeem themselves in such a fashion, they can only seek or be granted redemption.

But in the vernacular, even back in the 1600's, "redemption" meant what it still does today, which is an effort by someone to make up for a bad action.

Now Judas returned the silver, but did he ask for forgiveness or did his pride fail him? If he came right with the Lord, why did he commit suicide?
24 posted on 04/16/2006 6:07:35 AM PDT by SampleMan
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To: John 6.66=Mark of the Beast?

That's basically where I tend to leave it. In the hands of God, where it belongs.


25 posted on 04/16/2006 6:09:15 AM PDT by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Lorianne

The writers of this gospel of Judas were not "early believers" or "early christians" - they were gnostics.
They were known to the early church but their beliefs were always rejected as heretical.

St. Ignatius knew all about this gospel of Judas and he dismissed it.

Somehow I find Ignatius to be a much more reliable source on this than Christopher Hitchens.


26 posted on 04/16/2006 7:32:05 AM PDT by Scotswife
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To: Lorianne

Hitch is a militant athiest that reallly hates Christianty and has no problem admitting it.


27 posted on 04/16/2006 8:46:59 PM PDT by therut
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To: SampleMan

"Now Judas returned the silver, but did he ask for forgiveness or did his pride fail him? If he came right with the Lord, why did he commit suicide?"

****

that statement in (Matt. 27: 3) is not clear

when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself,

I can only think he was rack with so much Guilt and pain for what he caused he could not face Jesus nor live with him self!

I would say in that state of mind his reasoning was greatly impaired!

It seems Judas was a tool for Satin to use!

There is no more information given how Judas got from step A to step B?

We only have a vague knowledge of the ending?

In the scripture we are all warn

24 For there shall arise false Christs,
and false prophets,
and shall shew great signs and wonders;
insomuch that, if it were possible,
they shall deceive the very elect.


they shall deceive the very elect.

Judas was part of the elect and the reason I bring this up is that not to fall prey to the opposition one must Keep the Lord Commandments!

Its been a long time but I beleive somewhere in the scripture Judas allowed doubt take root and canker his soul!

For he preceived he was being slighted!


28 posted on 04/16/2006 10:00:23 PM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu

IMHO, when Scripture doesn't speak more to a particular issue, then perhaps our attention is misdirected from a more important issue being revealed in Scripture.

Accordingly, I tend to believe Judas' status is between him and Christ and will be resolved at the bema seat or the Great White Throne Judgment.

If Judas was saved, then he may have slipped into the sin unto death, wherein he served no more useful purpose prior to his first death here on earth. If he remained condemned from birth, then it's a moot point and he'll suffer the Great White Throne Judgment.

I don't find any redemption through Judas.


29 posted on 04/16/2006 10:08:25 PM PDT by Cvengr
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To: SampleMan

Evil, especially the deepest kind, is ultimately banal.

Judas didn't need a profound rationale (which the gospel writers never mention or even come close to inferring), 30 pieces of silver was plenty of motivation.


30 posted on 04/16/2006 11:04:53 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: Cvengr

You don't have to wait for judgement day to know the fate of Judas. The gospel writers are universal in their description that there was no repenetance, and therefore no salvation for Judas. It's a very sad story, but true.


31 posted on 04/16/2006 11:07:12 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: AnalogReigns

Our salvation isn't conditioned upon our postsalvation status. If it were, the consequences for Christ in heaven would become just as temporal.


32 posted on 04/17/2006 1:02:02 AM PDT by Cvengr
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To: restornu
24 For there shall arise false Christs,
and false prophets,
and shall shew great signs and wonders;
insomuch that, if it were possible,
they shall deceive the very elect.

they shall deceive the very elect.

Come on Resty, read the entire passage, slowly. "if it were possible" The point is it ain't possible, but if it were.....


33 posted on 04/17/2006 1:04:52 AM PDT by Gamecock ( "I save dead people" -- God (Eph 2:5)
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To: AnalogReigns
Judas didn't need a profound rationale (which the gospel writers never mention or even come close to inferring), 30 pieces of silver was plenty of motivation.

Perhaps. I agree that no profound rationale is required. But the experience of my own life and his return of the silver leads me to think that Judas made a horrible calculation based on self-pride. I don't think that my postulation would make Judas' sin any less banal. Thinking that his error may have been in trying to mold God to his purpose is more profound to me though.

34 posted on 04/17/2006 4:51:45 AM PDT by SampleMan
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