Skip to comments.Nephilims and the Mormon Church?
Posted on 04/27/2006 7:47:46 AM PDT by Hammerhead
What are your thought on the Nephilims and the secondary tie-in to the Mormon Church. I find this subject fascinating....if not VERY creepy.
I think manbearpig is a much greater threat.
As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man.
The nephilim settled down and became Democrats.
It is something I was amazed at when I became and ex-mormon/born again Christian.
Nephil - Root word "fallen one"
So the Book of Mormon, recorded by Nephi (fallen one)...perhaps.
"Nephilim" is a plural, so "nephilims" is a plural-plural, like "all y'all."
I visited the Mormon Temple in MD during Christmas.
I have to say, it was DEFINETLY one of the most creepy experiences I have ever experienced. Something VERY false about it all. Just past all the glitter and gold, there was an emptiness that made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
I got almost the same feeling as when I visited the Masonic Lodge in Old Town Alexandria VA.
There was an 'emptiness' there too.
"As Chris and I discussed Genesis 6:1-5, the word Nephilim shot into my mind like a sniper bullet piecing a steel plate. To my complete amazement, Chris told me the suffix 'lim' in Hebrew is the plural form of the word. Therefore, the direct translation is 'Nephis' or as the Book of Mormon renders NEPHITES. I then remembered the words of Jesus about the days of Noah. It suddenly dawned on both Chris and myself that these Nephilim in Genesis 6:1-5 are the same false angels who appeared to Joseph Smith in fulfillment of Jesus own word that history would repeat itself before His return. The Spirit of God touched my mind. I suddenly saw all the giant, golden statues of angels on top of the LDS temples. 'These angels want to be recognized and worshipped!' I said. And their name? These false angels were so vain, they could not resist putting their own names as major characters of the Book of Mormon. It contains four books of Nephi!
"The spirit of the Nephilim is a false, arrogant, and self-righteous spirit that imitates the gospel of Jesus Christ so closely, it is difficult to detect the errors without a strong Biblical foundation. The Nephilim spirit produces 'spiritual giants' among men, those of 'renown' who are of 'old' who are VERY IMPRESSIVE human beings. The essential claim proposed is that 'secret knowledge' and understanding possessed in ancient times has been 'lost', and these impressive men of renown, according to their great light and revelation and spiritual abilities, have brought back the truths that existed in ancient times. Such is the need to declare universal apostasy and error, thus creating a false need to believe in these glorious messengers, the sons of God, who claim to restore truths that have been lost. Every Christian and Mormon should praise God for leaving such a clear scripture in the Bible to expose these false messengers that dominate and control the LDS religion. The entire paradigm of the LDS Church claims that angels 'restored' the 'old' truths of God that have been lost. Joseph Smith became a 'spiritual giant' in the eyes of his people. Can any other scripture be so clear in the description of Joseph Smith and Mormonism?
"Now look carefully again at Genesis chapter 6:1. What did these 'sons of God' or fallen angels lust for what? Beautiful women! And thus we see these identical abnormal desires appear in the early history of the LDS faith. This is no coincidence! What is the biggest controversy the LDS Church has every known? It was the sexual practices of the leader, Joseph Smith. He was sealed to at least twenty-seven women, one of which was only 14 years of age! And some of the wives Joseph had intercourse with were married women!"
Ping to the thread.
I believe I mentioned this subject to you once. IIRC you dismissed it because Sons of God could not be read as "angels" Angels do not have bodies and could not therefore breed with the daughters of men. Am I remembering correctly?
Some commentaries, for this reason, suggest demon-possessed men--demons who earmarked the seven-footers of their day--whose control was so eminent that what marked these beings was not only their size but the spirit-beings' personalities.
man, this is all over the place now.
FWIW, consider that the Holy Spirit IS the personality of God, not a personality apart from the Father, but the very personality of the Father -- a personality revealed by and through the Son, (the person of God made manifest) and reveals the NATURE of the Father to man and reveals the manifestor as the Son of God, as Peter and others found out and testified to.
If you will, the personality of God is the attractor of man to God -- the magnet, in the same way that your personality attracts, or repels others to you or away from you by revealing your nature and who you are. Its the same method of response, albeit somewhat inferior in our un-regenerated state, for we are created in his likeness with a similar equation of 'one-ness' within ourselves.
The three are One. Father (Nature); Son (Person); Holy Spirit (Personality). God is One, as in 1 x 1 x 1 = 1, the whole of God, for besides Him, there is no other.
1 + 1 + 1 + 3 creates a pantheon. Something the Nephilim were apparently unaware of, for in their desire to imitate and displace God and lord over man and each other they created an hierarchical pantheon -- though not even of three, but of twelve.
I don't recall discussing it, but you did articulate my position reasonably well (except I don't recall believing, nor arguing that "angels don't have bodies" with anyone). The setup in Genesis 6:2 just smacks too much of passages like Numbers 25:1, Deut 7:3, and Judges 3:6, wherein Israel married Canaanite women in violation of God's prohibition found in Exodus 34:16. In short, I believe that entirely too much is read into the phrase "sons of God" used in Genesis 6:2,4, and that a better exegesis would be that the "sons of God" were those who were obedient to God, and the "daughters of men" were the daughters of disobedient families and nations. That's not to say that I could be wrong on the matter, and the "angels cohabiting with women" camp could be right. I just think my position is more consistent with the rest of the Pentateuch and Joshua/Judges.
But then what of the Nephalim? Where did they come from? That there at least three groups of real, literal giants in the Old Testament (the Nephalim, the Anakim, and the Rephaim/ Emim) I have no doubt. But I don't think Genesis 6:1-4 demands that these giants - the Nephalim themselves, anyway - were the result/offspring of these intermarriages. Instead, it sounds as though they were already present when the intermarriages occurred. But these are all my personal opinions and private thoughts on the matter. Take from them whatever you will.
Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them,
that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
- Genesis 6:1-4, NASB
"There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight."
- Numbers 13:33
'Where can we go up? Our brethren have made our hearts melt, saying, "The people are bigger and taller than we; the cities are large and fortified to heaven. And besides, we saw the sons of the Anakim there."'
- Deuteronomy 1:28
(The Emim lived there formerly, a people as great, numerous, and tall as the Anakim.
Like the Anakim, they are also regarded as Rephaim, but the Moabites call them Emim.
- Deuteronomy 2:10-11
Then Joshua came at that time and cut off the Anakim from the hill country, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab and from all the hill country of Judah and from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua utterly destroyed them with their cities.
There were no Anakim left in the land of the sons of Israel; only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod some remained.
- Joshua 11:21-22
When I was young I was able to go through the open house of the Washington D.C. temple. It was a wonderful, indescribable experience. I felt the Spirit very strongly there and it was one of the reasons that, while my later teen years saw me not quite attending Church or living all of its teachings, I remained close to the Church. As an early teen I was able to go back a couple of times to the Washington, DC temple to be baptized as a proxy for ancestors who have died. It was a similarly spiritual experience.
In 1990, I was privileged to attend the Temple with my wife and to be sealed to her. It was, again, a wonderful, inspiring, spiritual experience meer words can't ever describe. I've had the privilege to go back to the Temple many times since and desire to go back as often as possible. I've been to Temples all across this nation and the Spirit, the truth and light, attending each was just as strong.
In January, I was able to return to the Washington, DC temple 30 years after I first attended the open house. It was an awesome experience. I wish that there was a way I could share with you the Spirit, the joy, that I have felt in the Temple.
As for "glitter and gold", there is little of that. I ask how you would choose to outfit the House of the Lord? What decor would be more appropriate?
1. Jude quoted from the Book of Enoch which expounds upon vividly the supposed events surrounding Genesis 6. Also saying angels not keeping their first estate left their habitation and are now reserved in chains for punishment.
2. Paul advised women to wear something on their heads because of the angels (Book of Enoch says the angels were attracted to women's hair).
3. Peter said God didn't spare the angels that sinned and like Jude said they were in chains waiting for punishment.
I really don't give a twit about debating either side of the issue. But my two cents is that its not a position held exclusivley by Mormons.
"I have to say, it was DEFINETLY one of the most creepy experiences I have ever experienced. Something VERY false about it all. Just past all the glitter and gold, there was an emptiness that made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up."
My mother said the EXACT SAME THING! She was very uneasy and uncomfortable.
In the Book of Mormon, Nephi, the son of Lehi, is a prophet and founder of the Nephite people. He is also the author of First and Second Nephi, the first two books of the Book of Mormon. For other people by the name of Nephi that appear in the Book of Mormon,....
Nephi's father had a vision that Jerusalem would be destroyed, so he and his family left the city and went into the wilderness of the Arabian Peninsula. By the seashore, Nephi was commanded by God to build a ship, and though his brothers ridiculed him, Nephi did.
With the help of a compass called the Liahona, Nephi, his family, and his friends traveled across the oceans to the Americas.
Nephi was made ruler over the people, who were called the Nephites after him, and succeeding kings were called Second Nephi, Third Nephi, etc., after him.
The origin of the name Nephi is uncertain. It is not an attested Hebrew name, but some LDS apologists have speculated that it may be a Hebrew form of the attested Egyptian name Nfr. In Phoenician and Aramaic inscriptions of Egyptian names containing nfr, the nfr element is rendered npy, and the closely related Hebrew language would presumably transcribe the name the same way. (See A Note on the Name Nephi)
Alternatively, both believers and skeptics have occasionally proposed a connection between Nephi and the biblical Nephilim, the singular of which would be Nephil.
The name "Nephi" also appears in the Apocrypha, in 2 Maccabees 1:36 "And Neemias called this thing Naphthar, which is as much as to say, a cleansing: but many men call it Nephi." In this context it refers to naphtha.
Also some of the earliest recordings of Joseph Smith's first vision report that he was visited by an angel named Nephi...could it have been a fallen angel that "restored" the Church to the Latter Day Saints?
Early testimony that the name of the angel who appeared to Joseph was Nephi, not Moroni.
"He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 53 (1842)
"Again, when we read the history of our beloved brother, Joseph Smith, and of the glorious ministry and message of the angel Nephi" Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 71 (1842)
Joseph Smith - "When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." 1851 Pearl of Great Price, p. 41 (1851)
Joseph Smith - "He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 753 (1842)
Well how about a house made directly by the Lord, totally unmade by mere mortal hands? Why do LDS temples have the inscription on them that read, "The House of the Lord," when the apostle Paul said that "...the Lord of heaven and earth...does not live in temples made with hands?" And, later, "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God"?
I know folks can find almost anything on blogs, and that blogs don't carry "invincible truth"...but they can be as testimonial as the testimonies that LDS missionaries bear door to door. For example, note these two stories whereby women inside the temple mention "creepy" feelings:
"As a convert, I always knew not everything was '100%true', I just wanted so badly to be part of the group. Also, they don't tell you all the weird stuff right away. For my husband who was born into it...We hated the temple ceremony always, because it was so creepy. I think that was the beginning of the end for me. I was so disturbed, I wish I had walked out when they asked me to take off all my clothes and put that sheet on. EEEEEWWWW. I'm so embarassed that I did that!!! I mean, I'm a rational, normal person and yet I didn't walk out when I KNEW something was VERY wrong. I feel like I will never recover from my experience with Mormonism........." [This was found on a blog: http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/archive/index.php/t-44.html ]
In 1990, I was privileged to attend the Temple with my wife and to be sealed to her. It was, again, a wonderful, inspiring, spiritual experience meer words can't ever describe.[Spiff]
Well, from other blogs, this is not a universal "feeling" you experienced. Note this written in a UK religion thread as espoused by an LDS temple bride:
"...go to this room, go in the cubicle and take everything off... I felt so self-conscious and mortally embarrassed to be wearing not a stitch under the shield'. (A ghost-like sheet that I clutched both sides closed on) I stayed in that dressing room for a long time. I was willing myself to have the courage to leave... With tears of embarrassment and shame in my eyes I emerged from that little stall and led to a room with a curtain with a short round little old lady on a stool. She took my package of garments, handed them to another lady who disappeared behind another curtain. She tried to reassure me and then quietly started saying some stuff really quietly... then she proceeded to touch different parts of my skin, in short, made me feel downright creepy. Violated... She then led me to another room where there was another lady on a stool. She started doing the same thing but with oil. I remember closing my eyes, clenching my teeth and willing myself to stay there and endure this. My future marriage depended on my enduring this. After this, I noticed my garments, opened, and hung over a bar on the wall. Instead of allowing me to be a dignified adult, they PUT these on me! Yes, they held them open, just as I hold underpants and pants open for my 3 year old child. And being in a trance like state, I stepped in. They could tell I think, that I was stunned into silence because they said, 'normally we take the shield off of you and then put your garment top on, but we'll let you step into it.' So like a robot I stepped into my garment top and they shimmied it up my body. I inquired whether I could go put clothes on and they said yes. Finally, I had passed one of the tests of the temple: enduring the washing and anointing. For the record, I will NEVER in my life do that again. On we went to the little chapel where I was relieved to finally see my fiancé. He knew how bad all of that was for me and hugged me for a long time. I wanted to leave. I felt just awful inside, like this was all wrong. But I had been told my whole life that the endowment was to be looked forward to, so I pressed on. We walked into the endowment room... I felt baffled that I was sitting across the aisle from my future eternal companion.' I remember we moved from room to room and getting to briefly see my fiancé as we moved to different rooms. I remember thinking how funny he looked in that baker's hat, but then repenting of my light minded ness because I was in the temple. And most of all, I remember it being over and being relieved to get back in the car and leave the place. We ate at a little Subway on the way home. What a way to celebrate a major life moment!"
And related comments such as: "My experience was the same as yours, except mine was 'pre-1990' so it was even more bizarro. Suffice it to say that I was so stunned I remember little but slashing my throat in pantomime..."
My experiences in the St. George temple were very disturbing....it was probably the beginning of the end for me.
So then what yer saying is nephilims is correct usage ?
( As one who's been heard to utter all y'all on more than one occasion........ ).
Interesting Nephi stuff but what of my observation that this particular angelology isn't exclusive to Mormons?
LOL! I spent my formative years in the "southwestern midwest," so I'm likely to say "all OF y'all."
I really was curious about your position, you being former LDS and all, about the angels and men in Genesis Chapter 6. Whether or not you thought it was a Mormon only position or if there was room for other Christians to take the same postion. Guess you're not up to it.
Years ago, in the 1970's, Dwane Edward Spencer (Word Keys which Unlock Scripture radio program out of WOAI in San Antonio, Tx) had an interesting take on Nephilim and "giants".
He said the "Sons of God" were men who were believers in God, and the "Daughters of men" were daughters of those who did not follow God.
The children born of them were fierce warriors who were honored in their tribes as "demi-gods" because of their fighting ability. Tall of stature they were the "giants" but not what we would consider giants.
The Israeli spys were so frightened by them they exaggurated their height. "We were as grasshoppers before them!"
I don't know anything about it really. It's just wild speculation. What exactly is your question?
Mormons have a central character named Nephi. Perhaps this same Nephi returned as an angel to Joseph Smith (as I referenced in my previous posts to this thread,) and restored the LDS Church.
Nephilim (plural) are referenced in Genesis 6:4 "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-- and also afterward-- when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."
Are Nephilim "fallen ones?" Does the word Nephil in Hebrew mean fallen one? You have probably studied Hebrew, I have not.
Did a "fallen one" bring the LDS Church to Joseph Smith? Is it just a coincidence that seems to link the Book of Mormon to the Bible? I don't know. What do you think?
Check out my post #18 to you. Check out the portions of NT writings that hint strongly that 1st Century Christians were of the opinion angels and men co-habitated. I guess instead of asking you I should comment that I know many Christians that accept the same and that the doctrine is not excluse to the Mormon religion.
I have no idea.
Is it just a coincidence that seems to link the Book of Mormon to the Bible?p>Naw probably no coincidence but I don't think I'd be afraid to study and perhaps stake out a non-mainstream Christian position in one area just because somebody might think it smacks of LDS theology.
all i know is to trust my gut. And the feeling I got when I visited the Mormon Temple during Christmas was something TOTALLY false.
So? I don't care how ya feel about the Mormon Church. I wasn't defending them. I'm just saying the evidence is there that some 1st century Christians including Jesus' brother Jude believed Angels and men co-habitated. The Christian/Mormon polemic doesn't interest me.
Which Temple was that?
And what are we going to do with another one called Tephi?
Was she a daughter of one of the Nephilim?
I don't know what to do about Tea Tephi. Was her last name Green? If so, then you and I could be descended from the same tribe. ;-o
**What are your thought on the Nephilims and the secondary tie-in to the Mormon Church.**
It seems to me the Sons of God were of the line of Seth* and the daughters of men were of the line of Cain.
*Genesis 4:26 To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time people began to call upon the name of the Lord. (In Scripture those who call on the name of the Lord are called Sons of God)
NIV Matthew 22:29-30
29. Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
30. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Genesis 6:4. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
Topics: Nephi'limText: Gen. 6:4; Num. 13:33, R.V.), giants, the Hebrew word left untranslated by the Revisers, the name of one of the Canaanitish tribes. The Revisers have, however, translated the Hebrew gibborim, in Gen. 6:4, "mighty men."
Just what I found in the Book.
Oh I'm sorry. You must mistakenly believe I'm actually attempting to make a case for the existence of Nephlim (as offspring of fallen angels). Merely pointing out that in your uninspired NT writings the argument for angels boinking daughters of men is stronger than the argument for unregenerate men doing the same in this instance. Thanx for listening. Personally I believe it to be a myth myself. Not unlike most everything else in the NT.
Could you illustrate the EVIDENCE that makes this argument?
I'm just saying the evidence is there that some 1st century Christians including Jesus' brother Jude believed Angels and men co-habitated.
(It helps to actually READ the quoted article in the initial post of a thread.)
“I prayed again earnestly for an answer, but this time God led me to my Bible. “
Interesting take on the NT.
Even Joseph Smith didn't dis it this badly.
HE merely claimed some TRANSLATION errors...
Exactly. Not only did Jude quote and read from the book of "Enoch" there is ample evidence Jesus did too. The concept of the "elect" came from Enoch. "Abraham's boosom" is an idea that came from the book of Enoch. The first quarter of the book of Enoch is all about angels co-habitating with men. If there were leatherbound copies of Enoch in the first century Jesus would have been carrying it and putting many notches into it. Again, just another example that the argument of the myth is a stronger "pro" heavenly beings leaving their "first habitation" than "con".
All this coming from an outside impartial observer. The Spirit didn't inspire my interpretation or position. He apparently only speaks with you since you're always right and everyone else wrong.
The three are One. Father (Nature); Son (Person); Holy Spirit (Personality). God is One, as in 1 x 1 x 1 = 1, the whole of God, for besides Him, there is no other.
Yes, the Trinity..the basics of Christianity...
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Jhn 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
Jhn 1:8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.
Jhn 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-14
And the Word was made flesh and was named JESUS...
Jesus was there as the Word at the creation...
In the beginning, God...Genesis 1:1
Jesus is God...
And the only begotten son of God...John 3:16
And the only flesh born who had a mother who was a virgin... Isaiah 7:14
Mary never had sex with a man or a “god” in order to get pregnant with Jesus ...
Is any thing impossible with God ??? Luke 1:37