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The misunderstood 11th commandment: Thou shall not judge
Alain's Newsletter ^ | April 29 2006 | Robert E. Meyer

Posted on 05/02/2006 3:49:33 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan

Regardless of the level of theological sophistication, we can always be sure the critics "know" one thing: The Bible says that we should not judge one another. Anyone who would do so is clearly being un-Christian. Such obtuse reasoning is employed against Christians who offer a negative commentary on certain cultural trends, behaviors or lifestyles. Still, I wonder how many people have taken this concept to its logical conclusion?

We now hear that in our modern times, John 3:16 has been replaced by Matthew 7:1, as the most often quoted scriptural passage. This is clearly because we have taken the focus off of what the Creator has done for us, and placed it on the creatures do for themselves. We have taken the emphasis off of grace, and have instead made the approval of moral pluralism the quintessential virtue of the age.

The very idea that all judging is wrong, is an illegitimate synthesis between Christianity, moral relativism, and the contemporary perspective on "tolerance." These ideas have been wedded together to conjure up witch's brew of self-contradictory sophistry.

Christianity has traditionally viewed "tolerance" through a prism of scriptural precept that parallels the garden variety dictionary definition. The scriptures say things like, "Love endures all things," and "As much as it depends on you, live peacefully with all men." The traditional definition is that "tolerance" is graciously enduring those who you disagree with.

Today, "tolerance" has been reconstructed to mean something entirely different. Essentially it means that all ideas, lifestyles and truth claims, are deemed equally valid. Christian author and speaker Josh McDowell refers to this phenomenon as "negative tolerance"(permission) versus "positive tolerance" (approval). One can readily see how this new definition of tolerance circles back to the claim made about judging. If nobody has a superior moral position, then nobody has the standing to "judge" anything in terms of ethical hierarchy.

But does the use of Matthew 7:1, as a stand-alone quotation, bring contextual justice to the point Jesus is making? Of course not. Later in the passage, Christ refers to certain people unable or unwilling to assimilate spiritual things. He refers to them figuratively as "pigs" and "dogs." That sounds a bit like judging to me! In the book of John, Jesus talks of rendering a "righteous judgement," rather than none at all. The point was never that we should not make moral judgments, or employ an ethical hierarchy in being discreet about evaluating "right" and "wrong." The idea was that there should be no "double-standards." We should not judge others by a standard we would not want to be judged with ourselves. This is how we avoid "judgmentalism" and cronin fault-finding. We are exhorted to correct our own hypocrisies before reforming the world.

Now that is very different from telling someone that they shouldn't dare to call anything wrong. In fact, such reasoning will ultimately lead to calling evil good and good evil. This is because evil cannot be called evil, since such labeling is judgmental. Good is considered evil, because those who are endeavoring to do good by calling something else wrong, are guilty of judging. How could any court of justice operate if all judgment without exception were considered wrong? All criticisms of anything would have to be withheld on the basis that such critiques are judgmental in nature.

Christian apologist Greg Koukl offers us the perfect antidote to this apparent logical dilemma. He says that we must be egalitarian in terms persons, but elitist in reference to ideas. That principle is embodied in the old ecclesiastical adage that we are to hate the sin, yet love the sinner. This is a perfect expression of "righteous judgment," but it is a posture that would be condemned today as grossly judgmental. And yet in effect, is it any different from saying, "We support the troops, but oppose the war(We have concern for the person, but disapprove of the cause)?" The latter position is assumed to be accepted as valid without question, despite the fact that the former is seen as intolerant. Interesting paradox.

Last year an editorial writer to my local newspaper made a preposterous claim. He declared that the only hope for the peaceful co-existence of mankind, was that each of us must accept and respect the other guy's truth. We can't be dogmatic and say the other guy is wrong. But in articulating such a standard, the writer himself is engaged in judging, not to mention being dogmatic. Applying Koukl's axiom to this situation, we might say that all people deserve respect because of their unique position as reflecting the image of God. But in the process of evaluating the cogency of ideas, the writer clearly is confused, as he seeks to reconstruct the term "truth," by making it tantamount to opinion.

The idea that we can never judge about anything is patently absurd. To say that we can never judge is to wander aimlessly. The scriptures tell us that we should reprove each other, speaking the truth in love. What our society lacks is righteous judgment. What we have an abundance of is knit-picking and indifference. Neither of those two alternatives promotes justice and righteousness.


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I decided this needed posting, because some people on the thread about Cheney's homosexual daughter led to some to keep discouraging, attacking, and trying to silence those that think it is immoral behavior worthy of being condemned as sin.

SOME VERSES

Genesis, Book of (Old Testament)
Chapter 19, Verses 1-13 (NIV)

The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning." "No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square." But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof." "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door. But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door. The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.

Leviticus, Book of (Old Testament)
Chapter 18, Verse 22 (NIV)

Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus, Book of (Old Testament)
Chapter 20, Verse 13 (NIV)

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Deuteronomy, Book of (Old Testament)
Chapter 23, Verses 17-18 (NIV)

No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute. You must not bring the earnings of a female prostitute or of a male prostitute [a] into the house of the LORD your God to pay any vow, because the LORD your God detests them both.

Judges, Book of (Old Testament)
Chapter 19, Verses 22-23 (NIV)

While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing.

1 Kings, Book of (Old Testament)
Chapter 14, Verses 22-24 (NIV)

Judah did evil in the eyes of the LORD. By the sins they committed they stirred up his jealous anger more than their fathers had done. They also set up for themselves high places, sacred stones and Asherah poles on every high hill and under every spreading tree. There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.

1 Kings, Book of (Old Testament)
Chapter 15, Verses 11-12 (NIV)

Asa did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, as his father David had done. He expelled the male shrine prostitutes from the land and got rid of all the idols his fathers had made.

1 Kings, Book of (Old Testament)
Chapter 22, Verses 45-46 (NIV)

As for the other events of Jehoshaphat's reign, the things he achieved and his military exploits, are they not written in the book of the annals of the kings of Judah? He rid the land of the rest of the male shrine prostitutes who remained there even after the reign of his father Asa.

2 Kings, Book of (Old Testament)
Chapter 23, Verses 5-7 (NIV)

He did away with the pagan priests appointed by the kings of Judah to burn incense on the high places of the towns of Judah and on those around Jerusalem—those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun and moon, to the constellations and to all the starry hosts. He took the Asherah pole from the temple of the LORD to the Kidron Valley outside Jerusalem and burned it there. He ground it to powder and scattered the dust over the graves of the common people. He also tore down the quarters of the male shrine prostitutes, which were in the temple of the LORD and where women did weaving for Asherah.

Romans, Book of (New Testament)
Chapter 1, Verses 18-27 (NIV)

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

1 Corinthians, Book of (New Testament)
Chapter 6, Verses 9-11 (NIV)

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Timothy, Book of (New Testament)
Chapter 1, Verses 8-11 (NIV)

We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law[a] is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

Jude, Book of (New Testament)
Chapter 1, Verses 5-7 (NIV)

Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

1 posted on 05/02/2006 3:49:34 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Ping for later read.


2 posted on 05/02/2006 3:53:58 PM PDT by Paddlefish ("You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help.")
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
Soon after Christ says "Judge not lest ye be judged" in Mathew, he asks his followers to 'beware of wolves in sheeps clothing". Now, how can you determine wolves from sheep without judging?

The admonition not to judge applies to judging others' motivations, which we cannot know, and to judging others' salvation, which is not ours to determine. It does not apply to judging actions, we we can all plainly see.

3 posted on 05/02/2006 3:54:07 PM PDT by keithtoo ("Drilling in ANWaR is OK with us" - Alaskan Caribou Benevolent Association.)
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To: keithtoo

Well said.


4 posted on 05/02/2006 3:55:58 PM PDT by Imgr8t
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
Excellent post with follow up....thank you for the post. I am looking forward to the comments.
5 posted on 05/02/2006 3:57:21 PM PDT by Kimmers (If you want peace you must be prepared for war......)
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To: meandog; edcoil; bannedfromdu; zerosix; dinoparty; MineralMan; mlc9852; DJ MacWoW; ...

PING!!


6 posted on 05/02/2006 3:59:52 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Thanks for the post.


7 posted on 05/02/2006 4:00:42 PM PDT by TXBubba ( Democrats: If they don't abort you then they will tax you to death.)
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To: keithtoo
Matthew 7:1 & Capital Punishment ("Judge not??)

"...The wider context makes the true meaning clear: “For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get” (v. 2). That is, one should not expect to be judged by God by a different standard than one customarily uses to judge others. Clear enough, and fair enough! This has no bearing, however, upon the undeniable necessity to judge others. Indeed, such judgment is something which Moses, Jesus, and Paul regularly do. Nonetheless, the Bible stresses that judicial decrees within Israel must be fair and equitable. For example, “You shall appoint judges . . . and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment” (Deut. 16-18)."
8 posted on 05/02/2006 4:02:37 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Great Post! I appreciated it.


9 posted on 05/02/2006 4:04:20 PM PDT by dfwright (The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left (Eccl. 10:2, NIV))
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To: keithtoo
You sure got that right.
To fail to judge between right and wrong is cowardice;
to fail to judge between truth and falsehood is collusion;
to fail to judge between duty and preference, is treason.
10 posted on 05/02/2006 4:10:22 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Nothing human is alien to me.)
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To: Sunsong; little jeremiah

11 posted on 05/02/2006 4:12:56 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Thanks for the ping!


12 posted on 05/02/2006 4:22:39 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

The greatest love there is: The truth.


13 posted on 05/02/2006 4:50:23 PM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light..... Isaiah 5:20)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
I have found the handiest reply to "who are you, to judge" is "who are you to say that I can't."

It is not immediately obvious to many people, but logically inescapable if one follows the reasoning to its conclusion, that claiming some holy person does not speak for God is the same as the speaker claiming speak for God.

It's the same conceit as that which robs atheism of intellectual legitimacy.

14 posted on 05/02/2006 4:53:12 PM PDT by papertyger (Our Constitution isn't perfect, but it's better than what we have right now.)
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To: keithtoo

Everyone loves to quote, "You who are without sin cast the first stone." What everyone forgets is, THEY WERE REAL STONES. She was receiving a death sentence at the hands of men guilty themselves. There is a difference between speaking the truth and exacting a punishment.


15 posted on 05/02/2006 4:54:08 PM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light..... Isaiah 5:20)
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To: keithtoo
Soon after Christ says "Judge not lest ye be judged" in Mathew, he asks his followers to 'beware of wolves in sheeps clothing". Now, how can you determine wolves from sheep without judging?

In this case we are not "judging", we are "discerning" !!

:)
16 posted on 05/02/2006 5:11:28 PM PDT by Zetman (This secret to simple and inexpensive cold fusion intentionally left blank.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Fine essay. It is the great and malignant lie of the left that it the right of each person to define his own morality and the sole duty of everyone else to celebrate it or keep silent.


17 posted on 05/02/2006 5:12:05 PM PDT by JCEccles (Kitzmiller Syndrome: anger and paranoia that someone is harboring critical thoughts about darwinism.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Why are you pinging me? I never said that sin should not be judged. I said that there lots of sin as serious as homosexual behavior, and that it takes a small man to disown his child for acting as a homosexual. How does this article contradict my claims?


18 posted on 05/02/2006 5:14:36 PM PDT by dinoparty
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Um... exactly why am I being pinged and what ping list are you pinging? I only know of two lists I belong to so...


19 posted on 05/02/2006 6:15:47 PM PDT by trashcanbred (Anti-social and anti-socialist)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
So I ask you a third time, do you believe that sinners and homosexuals are your enemy?
20 posted on 05/02/2006 6:32:56 PM PDT by Sunsong
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: Mrs. Don-o
Excellent thoughts

Dr. Laura said, We do need to judge, without judgment it leads to lawlessness and lawlessness leads to anarchy."

I do not think our society will be brought down by bombs or violence. I have always felt our lack of a moral compass will be our own destruction.
22 posted on 05/02/2006 8:25:22 PM PDT by Kimmers (If you want peace you must be prepared for war......)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
Luke 12:54-57
54 He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. 55 And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. 56 Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time? 57 "Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?
23 posted on 05/02/2006 9:04:33 PM PDT by TradicalRC (No longer to the right of the Pope...)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come. 33 Either make the tree good and its fruit good: or make the tree evil, and its fruit evil. For by the fruit the tree is known. 34 O generation of vipers, how can you speak good things, whereas you are evil? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of a good treasure bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of an evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

-Matthew 12:32-37

24 posted on 05/02/2006 9:11:19 PM PDT by TradicalRC (No longer to the right of the Pope...)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Excellent CCF! Very well said, and very much needed.


25 posted on 05/02/2006 9:21:54 PM PDT by ladyinred
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
great Post

All should read and accept the Truth there in
26 posted on 05/03/2006 6:20:40 AM PDT by bremenboy (Medicare Part D Expert)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
Thank you for the ping. Let me guess you pinged me based on a few things I said on the thread on the Cheney and his lesbian daughter?

Ain't Luv grand?
27 posted on 05/03/2006 9:53:44 AM PDT by iluvlucy (swim the Tiber, the water is fine)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
I'm not sure what lord you serve. But my L-rd commands me to judge.

John 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
b'shem Y'shua

28 posted on 05/03/2006 10:17:05 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings)
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To: dinoparty

I was just inviting you to read the article...I was only in conflict with Annie...sinks...and a one other person.


29 posted on 05/03/2006 2:42:44 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Sunsong
I'm going to post from II Peter, Chapter 2. I want you to read this very carefully, okay? For Heaven's sake read this and repent your ways.

1 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 - And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3 - 3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4 - For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 - And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 - And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

7 - And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 - (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

9 - The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

10 - But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

11 - Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

12 - But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

13 - And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

14 - Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

15 - Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

16 - But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

17 - These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

18 - For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19 - While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20 - For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 - For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 - But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

30 posted on 05/03/2006 2:51:45 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Sunsong

P.S. - you say you asked me three times...I've responded every time you've asked...how many times must I dance in a circle with you?


31 posted on 05/03/2006 2:52:44 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: TradicalRC
See Post 30.
32 posted on 05/03/2006 2:54:14 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past

Well said.


33 posted on 05/03/2006 3:00:37 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter (The Stations of the Cross in Poetry ---> http://www.wayoftears.com)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Thanks for the ping, I hope you understand that my posts were to show that Christ also advocated judging as well as charity.


34 posted on 05/03/2006 3:06:33 PM PDT by TradicalRC (No longer to the right of the Pope...)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
You have not answered the question. So I ask you a fourth time. Do you believe that sinners and homosexuals are your enemy?

How many times will it take for you to answer a simple question???

35 posted on 05/03/2006 4:04:54 PM PDT by Sunsong
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To: Sunsong
Okay, you first asked me this question on the “Dad Was Fine When I came Out of the Closet” thread about Cheney’s dyke daughter and her tell all book and asked me this question on Post 200.

Do you consider homosexuals and sinners your enemy? Or do you just condemn them?

I answered this with a very simplistic reply to a question that wasn’t very serious, but for some reason you hang your entire dialogue on this false notion that your question hasn’t been answered - see Post 205.

Homosexuals are sinners...sin is of Satan...and Satan is the enemy of God and mankind.

The next post you offered didn’t ask me this question and instead said, “You gave nothing regarding the matter. You claimed you could produce something in God's own words. Point out, in God's own words, what will get you damned.” –see Post 246.

I will point you to Post 135.

Now, on Post 317, the second time you asked, you obviously don’t care about my answer and by this point I was already logged off. So when I log on the next day, don’t take it personally if I view new posts to you, and out of the large lot I don’t make it you – your microcosm and egoism don’t make much of an impression.

By Post 323, you were just making asinine statements bore out of nothing but stupidity. You made the following point, “I think that is called creating God in their own image(g). Some people really, really, really want God to be mean and punitive I think.” God created the human race, but man fell by way of original sin, and man by his own free will either chooses to remain obedient to God and the Law, or you choose transgress and sin. Your remark is amazingly arrogant and horribly wrong at the same time.

Now I have you on this thread asking the same question. Sin brings death, so of course I’m an enemy of Sin, but I can only be an enemy through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, and the Apostle Paul made quite clear that those who sin deserve to die:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. This was from Romans, Chapter One. So, do you want chapter and verse on one hand, and then don't want it on another. Did you read Chapter 2 of II Peter? I'm sure you didn't...the answer is there...right there on your screen...I can only lead a horse to water...but I CAN'T MAKE IT DRINK!!!

36 posted on 05/03/2006 5:01:48 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
Unless you are a perfect person, it is not wise to present yourself as superior. You may make a mistake and show yourself to be merely another fool. I asked you a question (post #200) – which you admit, you did not answer with much seriousness. Certainly not very kind of you. I hope you would agree.

I did not ask you again until post #317 – at which time I asked you once more to answer the question. You never did.

You erred when you ascribed post #246 to me. Check again who is the author of that post. An apology would be forthcoming from a decent human being.

This statement which I wrote to sinkspur and included your name on (because it was in regard to something you said):

[[[“I think that is called creating God in their own image(g). Some people really, really, really want God to be mean and punitive I think.”]]]

is true. Some people very much create God in their own image. Perhaps you do? And there are unfortunately many who really, really want God to be mean and punitive. It is truth that I spoke and reaffirm here. The Islamists want to believe that God asks them to be cruel and murderous. They believe in a God who condones suicide bombing and flying planes into buildings. Others, who call themselves Christians believe in a God who punishes and seeks vengeance. In all these cases – it is their choice. A tragic choice. A harmful choice. But their choice.

Next you ping me to this thread which you started to defend your view of judgement. I had not spoken to you of judgment – but you felt, for whatever reason, that I should be pinged to read your view. So, of course, I asked you a third time to answer my question. Which you did not do – but claimed to have done everytime I asked you. That is obviously an untruth from you. Wouldn’t that be a sin in your ideology?

Now you give this answer:

Sin brings death, so of course I’m an enemy of Sin

That does not answer the question as to whether you see sinners (the individuals) and homosexuals (the individuals) as your enemy.

I assume that you do. Are you your own enemy? Or do you claim to be without sin?

And do you, as Jesus teaches, love your enemies?

I have indeed read your long scriptural lectures. They are the sort of thing that reinforces for me the belief that the Bible is not the literal word of God. They are a good example of what I wrote to sinspur about – those who wish to create God in their own image – those who really, really want God to be punitive and cruel. Those who worship the wrath of God and the gleeful expectation of their brothers and sisters (as children of God) being burned in everlasting hell – have their reward, don’t they. What I would call a negative ego hit of feeling better than.

I pray that it will be soon that you turn from hatred to love, from condemnation and attack to helpfulness and peace.

37 posted on 05/03/2006 6:02:23 PM PDT by Sunsong
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To: Sunsong
Others, who call themselves Christians believe in a God who punishes and seeks vengeance. In all these cases – it is their choice. A tragic choice. A harmful choice. But their choice.

So you believe that God will not judge humanity and that there is no hell?

38 posted on 05/03/2006 8:07:57 PM PDT by TradicalRC (No longer to the right of the Pope...)
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To: TradicalRC
Here is your quote:

[[[Others, who call themselves Christians believe in a God who punishes and seeks vengeance. In all these cases – it is their choice. A tragic choice. A harmful choice. But their choice.]]]

Do you equate judgement of humanity and the existence of hell as being punishing and seeking vengence?

39 posted on 05/03/2006 8:10:55 PM PDT by Sunsong
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To: Sunsong

Yes.


40 posted on 05/03/2006 8:52:40 PM PDT by TradicalRC (No longer to the right of the Pope...)
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To: TradicalRC
Interesting. Do you see your beliefs as being very different from the Islamists?

I think this world - with all the pain, misery, war, judgment, hatred, blame, rage, despair, starvation, envy, cruelty etc etc is hell enough.

41 posted on 05/03/2006 8:59:17 PM PDT by Sunsong
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To: Sunsong
Interesting. Do you see your beliefs as being very different from the Islamists?

Yes. Aside from monotheistism, Abrahamic descent and a similar sexual ethos, we are quite different.

I think this world - with all the pain, misery, war, judgment, hatred, blame, rage, despair, starvation, envy, cruelty etc etc is hell enough.

This sweet old world also contains happiness, peace, tolerance, love, responsibility, benevolence, hope, feasting, admiration, kindness, etc., etc., etc.,. That should be Heaven enough for anyone but for those who lack the Grace to see it...

42 posted on 05/03/2006 9:30:41 PM PDT by TradicalRC (No longer to the right of the Pope...)
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To: TradicalRC
Yes. Aside from monotheistism, Abrahamic descent and a similar sexual ethos, we are quite different.

I was referring to the cruelty you ascribe to God - you and the Islamists - the desire for vengence and death and everlasting hell. You seem more similiar in that respect than different to me. You are not as barbaric, I'm sure, as the Islamists - but the error is the same. You believe, don't you, in vengence and killing for God?

That should be Heaven enough for anyone but for those who lack the Grace to see it...

How so, by denying the pain and suffering of billions? I would say that those who find heaven by denying or enjoying the incredible suffering of billions - have not found heaven - they have found sadism.

43 posted on 05/03/2006 9:40:39 PM PDT by Sunsong
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To: Sunsong
You believe, don't you, in vengence and killing for God?

No. "Vengeance is mine," sayeth the Lord.

How so, by denying the pain and suffering of billions? I would say that those who find heaven by denying or enjoying the incredible suffering of billions - have not found heaven - they have found sadism.

I do not deny pain and suffering. They are part of reality too. Part, not all. We are meant to bear suffering gracefully. Much suffering would disappear if we simply followed the Ten Commandments. If people practiced self-restraint, we wouldn't have to worry about STD's or abortion etc. More suffering has been caused by those who want Heaven on Earth than by those who believe in the God who will Juge All.

44 posted on 05/04/2006 5:37:32 AM PDT by TradicalRC (No longer to the right of the Pope...)
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To: iluvlucy

I pinged you because I Love Lucy....apologies..


45 posted on 05/04/2006 2:11:40 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: TradicalRC
This sweet old world also contains happiness, peace, tolerance, love, responsibility, benevolence, hope, feasting, admiration, kindness, etc., etc., etc.,.

Your list contains things that I think would be universally accepted as desirable states. I find it interesting – that you did not include, judgement, condemnation, punishment etc – those qualities that you assign to your God. It seems to me that you do intrinsically know the difference between what are beautiful states of mind – such as happiness, love, peace and being kind and those that are undesirable – such as hatred, condemnation, punishment wrath etc.

I do not deny pain and suffering. They are part of reality too. Part, not all. We are meant to bear suffering gracefully. Much suffering would disappear if we simply followed the Ten Commandments. If people practiced self-restraint, we wouldn't have to worry about STD's or abortion etc. More suffering has been caused by those who want Heaven on Earth than by those who believe in the God who will Juge All.

I believe in a loving God – not a wrathful, vengeful, eager to punish one. That doesn’t even make sense to me. I have known humans on this earth who were so loving, forgiving and kind and helpful to others that it was/is a joy and an honor to know them. God’s Love is so far beyond what any of us humans can yet imagine or perceive. God loves us, all of us, more than we will ever know….more than we can begin to try to dream of.

I find it sad that so many prefer to believe in a punitive, wrathful God. The Islamists justify their savagery, hate and murder by creating God in their own image. It is their claim that God wants them to kill and to torture because of the sinful ways of the infidels. I see far too much correlation to the Islamists in those Christians who seem to froth at the mouth over the possibility of someone they don’t approve of being punished by their big, bad God. I find that sad and, yes, tragic.

Jesus said, “Love one another as I have loved you”. That is, to me, sacred scripture. Not those who quote the Bible to justify being unloving.

46 posted on 05/06/2006 5:10:16 PM PDT by Sunsong
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To: Sunsong
I find it sad that so many prefer to believe in a punitive, wrathful God.

Islamists have a God without mercy, unlike the Christians. Bishop Sheen said years back that the fundamental difference between the Soviet Union and the United States is that the Soviets want the Cross without Christ, while Americans prefer Christ without the Cross. I believe that The God who is love is also Truth and Justice, to divide Him into His parts and just select the parts we like is to re-create Him in our own image. It rather reminds me of P.J. O'Rourke's preface to Parliament of Whores:

"God is a Republican and Santa Claus is a Democrat.

God is an elderly or, at any rate, middle-aged male, a stern fellow, patriarchal rather than paternal and a great believer in rules and regulations. He holds men strictly accountable for their actions. He has little apparent concern for the material well-being of the disadvantaged. He is politically connected, socially powerful and holds the mortgage on literally everything in the world. God is difficult. God is unsentimental. It is very hard to get into God's heavenly country club.

Santa Claus is another matter. He's cute. He's nonthreatening. He's always cheerful. And he loves animals. He may know who's been naughty and who's been nice, but he never does anything about it. He gives everyone everything they want without thought of a quid pro quo. He works hard for charities, and he's famously generous to the poor. Santa Claus is preferable to God in every way but one: There is no such thing as Santa Claus."

47 posted on 05/07/2006 10:48:03 AM PDT by TradicalRC (No longer to the right of the Pope...)
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To: keithtoo

Exactly! I have been having this argument for years with my sister. Of course we can not judge who is saved and who isn't, or why people do what they do. But god gave us Eyes and Ears and a Brain in between for a reason. And one of those reasons is to call a spade a spade.


48 posted on 05/08/2006 5:07:39 PM PDT by spikeytx86 (Pray for Democrats for they have been brainwashed by there fruity little club.)
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