Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Catholic Caucus: It's the Church's Bible
CatholicCulture.org ^ | 05-05-06 | by Dr. Jeff Mirus

Posted on 05/06/2006 11:42:13 AM PDT by Salvation

It's the Church's Bible

by Dr. Jeff Mirus, special to CatholicCulture.org
May 5, 2006

In a recent issue of First Things editor Richard John Neuhaus criticized the New American Bible and commented on some problems plaguing modern Biblical translations in general. One of the contributors to the revised NAB wrote in to defend the scholarship of the translators. Fr. Neuhaus replied that the Bible is “the Church’s Bible, not the Bible of the academic guild.” What can this possibly mean?

Determining Meaning

One of the examples Fr. Neuhaus used was Genesis 1:1-3. What has been traditionally rendered as “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” has recently been changed to “In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,” which fails to capture the full force of the Christian understanding of “the beginning”. Of course, this is not so much a quarrel over the translation of a particular verse as over a trend. For example, we see a similar loss of force in the Christian understanding of Psalm 23:6. In this verse, “I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever” becomes “I will dwell in the house of the Lord for years to come.”

Richard J. Clifford, SJ of the Weston Jesuit School of Theology, the defender of the NAB in this instance, argues that scholars rightly based their new Genesis translation on such things as “the phraseology of comparable Near Eastern cosmogonies, and the Masoretic vocalization” of the text. He further notes that at the time of the psalms, Israel “had no belief in life after death in a modern sense”, and one cannot push later interpretations onto early texts. “Tradition,” says Fr. Clifford, “should not determine biblical translation.” This seems quite sound.

A Unique Text

But is it really? It is certainly true that a translator ought not to impose on the text a meaning that it cannot bear, no matter what his theological presuppositions lead him to prefer the text should say. But when the language used can admit of a variety of interpretations, or when the meaning simply isn’t completely clear, translators face an unusual challenge with Scripture. The challenge is to remember that the Holy Spirit is the primary author. It is, therefore, the Holy Spirit’s mind the translator must ultimately try to read, not the mind of the human agent who drafted the text.

With apologies to Fr. Clifford, tradition can and must affect how Scripture is translated. Tradition is reflective of Faith which, in turn, is reflective of the mind of the Holy Spirit. Knowing more about the truths the Holy Spirit wishes to convey than did the original human authors of the Old Testament, the Church sometimes comes to see a particular fullness of meaning in a Scriptural verse which a good translator is bound to respect. In other words, the role of the translator is not to do his best to return us to the understanding of reality held by the human agent who penned each ancient book. Rather, the translator must attempt to translate in such a manner that the greatest possible range of meaning inspired by the Holy Spirit is conveyed.

This is a daunting but not an impossible task. It is possible precisely because “it is the Church’s Bible, not the Bible of the academic guild.” In other words, what may sound to some like petulance on the part of Fr. Neuhaus is not petulance at all. It is, in fact, the sine qua non of Biblical translation. Without this precise attitude, the Bible becomes just another book, one of a great many interesting products of the human mind.

For Years to Come

Take the translation of Psalm 23:6. The verse employs a Hebraism perhaps best translated as “for length of days”, which is not an idiomatic expression in English, though it can be (and has been) translated that way, with perhaps not unsatisfactory results. Now, among many possible choices for translation of this Hebraism, let us consider two: “forever” (the traditional translation) and “for years to come” (in the NAB). Which is better?

Admittedly, the question is not simple. It seems reasonable that the Hebrew refers to a great length of time. But if we consider the sketchy understanding of the after-life in those days, we naturally think a little harder about whether it really means “forever”. Given the Hebrew propensity for poetic intensification or even hyperbole, however, we can see that “forever” might well have been understood at the time in an accommodated sense, even without a full theological understanding. Thus, for example, on our wedding days we all expect to be married forever. Even, perhaps, forever and a day.

What to do? Well, the Church knows something about the mind of the Holy Spirit that the human author didn’t know. The Church knows that we will ultimately dwell in the house of the Lord forever in the fullest eschatological sense, and the Church also knows that this is one of several layers of meaning the Holy Spirit intended in this text. Because the Church knows this, as reflected in the tradition of her interpretation, it is the translator’s job to select a phraseology which is faithful to the literal text without unnecessarily obscuring this richer meaning.

Clearly, then, the translation “for years to come” fails. And it fails precisely because it divorces Scripture from the mind of the Holy Spirit, insisting instead that its meaning is exhausted by the conceptual limitations of the human agent who penned the words in a particular time and place. The translation “forever”, in contrast, leaves the text open to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to whom all the sequential stages of Revelation are equally present. And it does this without imposing upon the actual words a meaning which they cannot bear.

The Church’s Bible

I’ve emphasized several times in other contexts (with no originality whatsoever) that the Bible must be interpreted in the heart of the Church. Because no language, especially no ancient language, can be translated into another with exact correspondence, translation is in part an act of interpretation. The richer the text, the more difficult it becomes to convey in the new language all the shades of meaning present in the original. This task becomes even more difficult when the translator himself, perhaps inevitably, does not perceive all the meanings the text contains.

In dealing with the works of a living author, of course, the translator should consult the author. But this is also possible with Scripture, for which purpose there is only one way to consult the Holy Spirit. Now we understand what Fr. Neuhaus means when he says: “It’s the Church’s Bible.”

Send Your Feedback to Us!

Please send us your opinions. Click here to comment.

© Trinity Communications 2006.



TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Eastern Religions; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Islam; Judaism; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Orthodox Christian; Other Christian; Other non-Christian; Prayer; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Religion & Science; Skeptics/Seekers; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: greek; hebrew; language; translations
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-66 next last
**tradition can and must affect how Scripture is translated. Tradition is reflective of Faith which, in turn, is reflective of the mind of the Holy Spirit.**

Catholics, please share your thoughts.

1 posted on 05/06/2006 11:42:18 AM PDT by Salvation
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: All
About the author

Dr. Jeffrey A. Mirus
Founder and President

Dr. Jeffrey A. Mirus has been a leader in Catholic education and the dissemination of Catholic information for over 30 years. He has co-founded a Catholic college, authored and published books, pioneered Catholic Internet services, founded a non profit corporation to advance the Catholic Faith through education and the media (Trinity Communications), and established a computer consulting enterprise (Trinity Consulting).

In addition to his apostolic and career accomplishments, Dr. Mirus is the father of six children. He and his wife Barbara currently reside in Northern Virginia.

 

Chronology:

1985-Present: Founder and Director of Trinity Communications
Purpose: To advance the Catholic Faith through communications
Oct. 2003: World-wide release of CatholicCulture.org
2000-03: Partnered with the Knights of Columbus to provide a web site and services for the Supreme Council
1997-Present: Founded PetersNet (web site), partnered with various other Catholic organizations to maintain Internet infrastructures, including Catholic World News
1996: Established EWTN Online Services for Mother Angelica
(Merged CRNet with EWTN, put it on the Internet)
1993-96: Created The Catholic Resource Network (CRNet) (pre-web online services)
1985-92: Published books, audio tapes and video cassettes
1977-85: Co-founder of Christendom College
Professor and first Director of Academic Affairs
Founder of the Apologetics Program

Founder and Director of the Christendom Press
Co-authored and published the apologetics text Reasons for Hope

1978: Book The Divine Courtship published by Franciscan Herald Press
1975: Founded and edited the Catholic interdisciplinary journal Faith & Reason
1973: Ph.D. in Intellectual History from Princeton University in 1973, with a dissertation focusing on Dominican Reform & Defense of the Papacy (prior to the Protestant Revolt)

2 posted on 05/06/2006 11:43:34 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: nickcarraway; sandyeggo; Lady In Blue; NYer; american colleen; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

3 posted on 05/06/2006 11:46:27 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

KJV-only attacks begin in 5-4-3-2...


4 posted on 05/06/2006 11:55:52 AM PDT by AlaninSA ("Beware the fury of a patient man." - John Dryden)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: AlaninSA; Salvation; NYer; Nihil Obstat; Coleus; BearWash

Dear Freepers in Christ,

Just my two cents here. I hope and pray that there will not be another "Anti- Catholic Flame War" on this Thread.

I for one, am immensely fed up with the Anti- Catholic Flame Wars I have either experienced, observed, or read here on FR Since January 2006.

I am still recovering from some or rather a series of Anti-Catholic Comments made by a Freeper to me regarding "Prostitution and the Catholic Church in Germany".

Why is it that "The Catholic Church is painted constantly as some Big Bad Wolf or werewolf so to speak ?

I just cannot understand some Folks here at FR ?

While, living in Atlanta some years back-- I had a number of Conservative Baptist and Presbyterian Friends who were either younger or a bit older than me and they always respected my Catholic Faith and taught me much about the Bible specially "The Old Testament".

I will just pray that no nasty comments will be posted on this Thread today. I am weary and tired as a result of Chronic pain and Health Issues and from stuff I have seen in the last week on a number of Threads.

IN THE RISEN LORD JESUS CHRIST,


5 posted on 05/06/2006 12:06:55 PM PDT by MILESJESU (CATHOLICISM ROCKS. BLESSED BE JESUS CHRIST, TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN IN THE BLESSED SACRAMENT.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: AlaninSA; Religion Moderator

LOL! That's why I marked it Catholic Caucus -- so it could be a Catholic Discussion.


6 posted on 05/06/2006 12:11:11 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: MILESJESU

**Why is it that "The Catholic Church is painted constantly as some Big Bad Wolf or werewolf so to speak ? **

Because the Catholic Church has stood firm for over 2000 years on issues of abortion, contraception, euthanasia, etc. And many put the Catholic Church down, thinking they might succeed in raising their denomination up.

However, the Catholic Church is still here and growing!


7 posted on 05/06/2006 12:14:53 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Salvation; NYer; Coleus; Nihil Obstat

Dear Salvation,

You are the best. You are on the money as always.

Yes, you are quite right with regard to the Anti- Catholicism that exists not only on FR but also on other Public Forums and in the Pagan Secular World.

I do agree with your last statement that the Catholic Church is still here and growing and I can certainly witness to that fact not only in India but also in a host of countries in Asia like Vietnam, Myanmar, even in Communist China -- The Catholic Faith it seems is spreading like wild fire.

I strongly believe that in 2-5 years "Vietnam will become a Major Bastion of Catholicism in South- East Asia".

Conversions to Catholicism in Vietnam are taking place at a quick pace or should I say that the Catholic Faith is spreading like "Wild Fire There".

In the United States too, I know that the Catholic Church is growing in mnay areas even in some areas in the Southern United States.

Finally, Yes -- The Catholic Church has stood firm while a lot of denominations have changed rules on a host of issues.


8 posted on 05/06/2006 12:24:49 PM PDT by MILESJESU (CATHOLICISM ROCKS. BLESSED BE JESUS CHRIST, TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN IN THE BLESSED SACRAMENT.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

I don't use the NAB for personal reading or study, because I've had the RSV since I learned to read. However, I thought Fr. Neuhaus's criticisms in the recent "First Things" were goofy.

You say tomAYto, I say toMAHto ...


9 posted on 05/06/2006 12:49:45 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Dump the 1967 Outer Space Treaty! I'll weigh 50% less on Mars!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

I hate the NAB's awkward translations which sometimes undercut Catholic teaching or at least the long term interpretation of things.

They sold out to a modern critical approach (whose scholarly proponents often don't believe in God) a touch of inclusivism, and had a tin ear to the sound of the language, to boot.


10 posted on 05/06/2006 1:00:17 PM PDT by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MILESJESU

We are growing...

I've lived all over the nation due to my long-tenure in the US Army. This has taken me to Wisconsin, New Jersey, Kentucky, Alabama, Georgia, Washington (state) and California. I've also lived in North Carolina and Texas (where I live now -- and hopefully forever).

While the Church is "down" in the "blue state" areas I've lived in -- just like every other denomination -- it's booming in the red states...just like every other denomination.

Mass is always standing room only...get there early to get a decent spot. We're doing fine...despite what seems to be a focused attack strategy.


11 posted on 05/06/2006 1:08:31 PM PDT by AlaninSA ("Beware the fury of a patient man." - John Dryden)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Tax-chick

RSV is my main study bible, but I will use all of them sometimes to shed light.

A couple of online favorites (both with the deuterocanonical books:)

http://www.ebible.org/web/indexfr.htm

This is a reworking of the ASV, using the Byzantine Majority Text as its stanardized text, which is cool, I think.

The NET bible (which has lots of translators notes and is elegantly worded, although I don't always agree with their decisions on interpreting)

http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm

RVS is online at:
http://etext.virginia.edu/rsv.browse.html


12 posted on 05/06/2006 1:19:20 PM PDT by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Knitting A Conundrum

Thanks! I'm not usually at the computer - more likely on the sofa feeding the baby.


13 posted on 05/06/2006 1:22:16 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Dump the 1967 Outer Space Treaty! I'll weigh 50% less on Mars!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Tax-chick

I have gotten to where I don't do much bible reading unless I am online with a keyword search any more...shame on me, but it's true...Of course I have something like 25 or 30 copies of the Bible in different translations floating around, being compulsive...so I am always within easy reach of one.

(And don't begin to ask me how many rosaries I have. We won't even talk about me buying the cheapie ones in 50 count packages from Autom to keep and give away.....)


14 posted on 05/06/2006 1:25:59 PM PDT by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: AlaninSA

Dear AlaninSA,

Many Thanks for your message. I strongly feel that the Catholic Church is growing to a considerable extent in the Southern United States as well as in the South- West United States.

Since, you are Minnesota born and raised and a Proud Catholic -- May I add you to my Ping List for the Homilies of Father Robert Altier that I have been posting for the past month here on FR.

Father Robert Altier is a Conservative/Orthodox Catholic Priest who preaches awesome Homilies on the Blessed Sacrament, Our Lady, The Spiritual Life, etc.

He is also the Assistant Pastor of Saint Agnes Catholic Church in Minneapolis, Saint Paul.

Their web site http://www.stagnes.net


15 posted on 05/06/2006 1:28:07 PM PDT by MILESJESU (CATHOLICISM ROCKS. BLESSED BE JESUS CHRIST, TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN IN THE BLESSED SACRAMENT.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

CCC 113 Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word........

I own the NAB and read it. Before I bought it one of the verses I looked at was Lk 1:28. That told me all I needed to know about the translation.

I had just read an article about the title, in Greek I believe it is kecharitomene, that Gabriel uses when addressing Mary. Apparently, it's a unique word.

I sort of hold it at arm's length if there is a phrase I find disconcerting. Possibly a translation choice that might not be quite on the mark. And the notes? Once they get past basic definitions of words it is pretty swampy.

Maybe I should get a copy of the RSV. I also like the Douay-Rheims on line.


16 posted on 05/06/2006 1:33:41 PM PDT by siunevada (If we learn nothing from history, what's the point of having one? - Peggy Hill)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Knitting A Conundrum

**I hate the NAB's awkward translations which sometimes undercut Catholic teaching or at least the long term interpretation of things.

They sold out to a modern critical approach (whose scholarly proponents often don't believe in God) a touch of inclusivism, and had a tin ear to the sound of the language, to boot.**

Agree with the sound of the language and the awkwardness of the translations. Many prefer the Douay-Rheims for that reason.

Also, I detest the inclusiveness language.


17 posted on 05/06/2006 1:34:47 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: annalex

Where do you get your side by side tanslations of the Bible? D-R and Vulgate, correct?


18 posted on 05/06/2006 1:37:14 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
I'm surprised the author didn't bring up the historical situation of the Greek Septuagint version vs St. Jerome translating the Old Testament into Latin directly from the Hebrew. Caused a major commotion at the time.

St. Augustine had the Holy Spirit in mind when commenting on those places in Scripture where the Greek Septuagint and Hebrew differed.

In any event, my preferred English text is the RSV-CE. The NAB is flat. The RNAB is horrible.

19 posted on 05/06/2006 1:41:52 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Christos Voskrese!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: siunevada

Thank you for the CCC reference. Sometimes we forget about the heart of the message and get all bothered by some little details. I know I am guilty of that.


20 posted on 05/06/2006 1:41:53 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Knitting A Conundrum

We have lots of rosaries, too! The children are given them at church all the time, or they come with the schoolbooks. We hang them on a key rack in the front hall.

I'm the opposite with Bibles. I have my one (new last year) Ignatius RSV sitting on top of the TV cabinet with the daily lectionary, and everyone uses it for every project. I take it to church to use with my Sunday School class, bring it to the computer if I'm in a discussion and need chapter and verse, etc.


21 posted on 05/06/2006 1:42:40 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Dump the 1967 Outer Space Treaty! I'll weigh 50% less on Mars!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: siunevada; Salvation
An original "Jerusalem Bible" (not the "New Jersusalem Bible") has excellent notes for a single bound Bible.

Also, the Navarre Bible series from Sceptre Publishing (the Opus Dei publishing arm) has excellent footnotes. Each book of the Bible is seperate with the latest Latin Vulgate text and the RSV-CE used for the English translation. This is the preferred English translation of the Holy Scriptures for the English translations of official documents emanating from the Holy See.

The footnotes are those used by 'Salvation' in her posts of the daily Readings.

I know that they have the complete New Testament available, and are probably finished with the Old Testament by this time as well.

22 posted on 05/06/2006 1:53:00 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Christos Voskrese!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Tax-chick

As a lector I know exactly what he is getting at. The NAB language only its translators can love. Reading it outloud is hard, because its English style is flat at best and much like that of someone to whom English is a second language. I recall when it was first published, Wm. Buckley commented on its banality. You use the RSV. So do I. From time to time, when I had to deliver a particular bad line, I would substitute another translation. They say that lectors should says it as if we meant it? How can we do that when we don't know what it means, even with a commentary to help?


23 posted on 05/06/2006 1:56:56 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: TotusTuus

**and are probably finished with the Old Testament by this time as well.**

They are making progress on the other books of the Old Testament. They had already footnoted the Septuagint. I was delighted this year that they had all the footnotes on Isaiah during Lent.

Let me know if you discover the Navarre commentary is completed.

Unfortunately, the Old Jerusalem study Bible is not being printed. Bah! My loss.


24 posted on 05/06/2006 2:01:23 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

**They say that lectors should says it as if we meant it? How can we do that when we don't know what it means, even with a commentary to help?**

Good point. Makes me want to send the url of this thread to the USCCB.


25 posted on 05/06/2006 2:02:56 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: TotusTuus; annalex

**The footnotes are those used by 'Salvation' in her posts of the daily Readings.**

I really like offering as many translations as possible. I post the NAB, Navarre is the RSV as you state, and annalex posts the Douay-Rheims and the Vulgate daily. We can pick and choose!


26 posted on 05/06/2006 2:06:23 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Tax-chick

I keep a tab open to the RSV online open all the time...I have a great memory for passages, but often forget where they are at!


27 posted on 05/06/2006 2:09:36 PM PDT by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: MILESJESU
I strongly believe that in 2-5 years "Vietnam will become a Major Bastion of Catholicism in South- East Asia".

That's nice, but unfortunately, what is being marketed as Catholicism in many instances these days is not authentic. It is a corrupted, modernist, populist, and sometimes charismatic version, particularly with respect to The Mass.

I'm going to head back to my trad forums.

28 posted on 05/06/2006 2:11:17 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

Please keep me on the ping lists, including Father Altier's homilies. Have seen much inspiring, holy, and traditional material on them. Thanks.
29 posted on 05/06/2006 2:19:43 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: MILESJESU

I prefer not to be added to that ping list, thank you. My ties to Minnesota are no longer strong, and I have some issues with Father Altier's actions. Nothing personal, just that I'm not interested.


30 posted on 05/06/2006 2:28:44 PM PDT by AlaninSA ("Beware the fury of a patient man." - John Dryden)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: AlaninSA

Dear AlaninSA,

Many Thaks for your message. I know that some Catholics have issues with him regarding his stance on "Communion in the Hand" but I feel that he is entitled to his opinion and he has not broken any canon law by speaking out on that Topic.

I thought that Father Altier was much loved by Conservative/Traditional Catholics.

You seem to be giving me another spin on Father Altier.

Also, you made the following comment that you have some issues with Father Altier's Actions.

Could you spell ou what they are either on this Thread or via Freepmail to me as I am interested in knowing what is it that ticks you off about him.

Personally Speaking, if it was not for Father Altier's Homilies I would have joined the Baptist Church or perhaps some Bible Based Pentecostal Church.

His Homilies were "Life Giving" to me in more ways than one.

IN THE RISEN LORD JESUS CHRIST,


31 posted on 05/06/2006 2:41:22 PM PDT by MILESJESU (CATHOLICISM ROCKS. BLESSED BE JESUS CHRIST, TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN IN THE BLESSED SACRAMENT.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: MILESJESU

"Ticks off" is a bit strong a term for my feelings. I'm not harboring anything big, I just don't care to read his homilies.

My issue with him is his public disobedience.

That's all.

Remember, I'm a KofC member. Obeying the magisterium is a big deal to me.


32 posted on 05/06/2006 2:46:30 PM PDT by AlaninSA ("Beware the fury of a patient man." - John Dryden)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: siunevada

"I had just read an article about the title, in Greek I believe it is kecharitomene, that Gabriel uses when addressing Mary. Apparently, it's a unique word."

Not quite unique. It also appears once in Sirach (it's unique to non Catholics). In that case the RSV-CE translates it as justified, and does not refer to an actual person, but an ideal. Can you tell me the name of the article/publication you read, or provide a link? I'd like to read it.

Thanks
v


33 posted on 05/06/2006 2:48:57 PM PDT by ventana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: BearWash

Dear BEARWASH,

Many Thanks for your message.

However, and this is my personal opinion that in a Country like Vietnam -- The Catholicism being promoted is of the Traditional/Conservative Variety as is the case in some other countries in South-East Asia.

I do agree with you that in a number of countries in Europe as well as in North America -- A Modernist Version of Catholicism is being promoted.

I will keep you on the Ping List of Father Altier's Homilies.



34 posted on 05/06/2006 2:49:36 PM PDT by MILESJESU (CATHOLICISM ROCKS. BLESSED BE JESUS CHRIST, TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN IN THE BLESSED SACRAMENT.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: MILESJESU
The Catholicism being promoted is of the Traditional/Conservative Variety as is the case in some other countries in South-East Asia.

That's truly wonderful and I would not have expected it. I learn new something every day.

Thanks for letting me know. Your contributions continue to excel as always.

35 posted on 05/06/2006 2:53:36 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: MILESJESU

Sorry for the assumptions I made -- just a bad mood, I guess.

Feeling a lot better now!


36 posted on 05/06/2006 2:56:12 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: AlaninSA

Dear AlaninSA,

You are obviously unaware that he has been censored by The Ultra- Liberal Archbishop of Minneapolis -- Harry Flynn.

Also, I fail to see how Father Altier is disobedient -- His Homilies and Talks are no longer available on "A Voice in the Desert".

You may not agree with me, but there are many Cardinals and Archbishops in the Catholic Church in the United States and Europe who are "Wolves in Sheep's Clothing".

Examples are Cardinal Mahoney, Archbishop Flynn, etc who have been promoting all kinds of Ultra-Liberal Catholicism and have been endangering the Catholic Faith among the Catholic Faithful for a number of years.

Some of these Cardinals and Archbishops are even opposed to the "Traditional Teaching of the Magisterium".

I for one, would never obey an Archbishop or Cardinal who endorses Immorality or Ultra- Liberal Catholicism or is a Practicing Homosexual like Archbishop Rembert Weakland of Milawaukee.

Since, Tomorrow is Good Shepherd Sunday-- I just have one question for you -- Could you please name any Cardinals or Archbishops in the Catholic Church in the United States who are "True Shepherds".

Only a few come to mind. Like Archbishop Chaput of Denver, Bishop Robert Vasa of Baker, Oregon, Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz of Lincoln, Nebraska etc.

Also, you have said that obeying the Magisterium is a big deal for you. Yes, it is for me too.

But we need to discern between "True Shepherds" and those who just claim to be Shepherds but are far from it.

I believe that Father Altier speaks the truth regarding the current situation in the Church and that has ticked off Archbishop Flynn as well as some other Priests from the Archbishop's Office.

In anycase, I respect your views on this matter. I have a high regard for the KOFC.


37 posted on 05/06/2006 3:04:09 PM PDT by MILESJESU (CATHOLICISM ROCKS. BLESSED BE JESUS CHRIST, TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN IN THE BLESSED SACRAMENT.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: BearWash

Dear BearWash,

Many Thanks for your message. Now, let me also clarify something that I did not really get into in my last Post with you and that is what is going on in some Cities in India in the Catholic Church.

The Catholicism that is unfortunately being promoted in some cities in India by a number of Ultra-Liberal Jesuits is of the Modernist Kind and has led many Catholics in places like Bombay, Bangalore, etc to leave the Catholic Church and seek solace in Bible- Based Pentecostal Churches that seem to be sprouting everywhere in Cities throughout India.

The situation in South- East Asia is quite different from what is happening in India and that I suspect is because the Religious Orders engaged in Missionary or Pastoral Work in countries like Vietnam or Myanmar are by and large Conservative and Traditional.

Your bad mood is forgiven. It happens sometimes -- nothing really to worry about.

Tomorrow is "Good Shepherd Sunday". Let us pray for True Shepherds in the Catholic Church whether they are Priests, religious, Bishops, etc.


38 posted on 05/06/2006 3:14:08 PM PDT by MILESJESU (CATHOLICISM ROCKS. BLESSED BE JESUS CHRIST, TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN IN THE BLESSED SACRAMENT.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

I'm not Catholic, but I am Christian. Let me just add my own 2-cents worth. Without the promise of everlasting life, neither Christianity, not any other religion, have anything to offer mankind. We might all as well become socialists, or robbers.


39 posted on 05/06/2006 3:45:21 PM PDT by chesley (Liberals...what's not to loathe?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
The dansangel page linked from the bottom of your profile page is nice. Somehow I missed it before.
40 posted on 05/06/2006 5:25:15 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AlaninSA
KJV-only attacks begin in 5-4-3-2...

I wouldn't have said anything bus since you brought it up...There are well over 100 English translations of the bible already...Makes sense to me that if the people haven't got it by now, it's time to give up...

It is interesting to me that the King James bible is known as the Reformation bible...And scores after scores of bibles make the claim that they are an improvement over the King James, and they keep trying and trying...

41 posted on 05/06/2006 5:43:34 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the whole trailer park...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

Excellent points. My family memorizes from the RSV, and the kids often mention how strange the NAB translations sound, when we hear a passage we know during Mass.


42 posted on 05/06/2006 5:48:28 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Dump the 1967 Outer Space Treaty! I'll weigh 50% less on Mars!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Salvation; TotusTuus
I post daily from Douay-Rheims and Latin Vulgate on your thread.

I use Unbound Bible for all analytical work.

The NAB translation is in my opinion pretty bad. It basically follows the Protestant obfuscatory model in several key passages; I very much hope the Church moves away from it to something more reflective of the original Gospel.

43 posted on 05/06/2006 7:02:11 PM PDT by annalex
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BearWash

Thanks, It wasn't there at the very beginning of that FR of the Day thread. dansangel had it saved with another company as I recall and was able to retrieve it.


44 posted on 05/06/2006 7:37:53 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: annalex

Thanks, annalex, for the links.

**I very much hope the Church moves away from it to something more reflective of the original Gospel.**

Agree with you completely here.


45 posted on 05/06/2006 7:40:08 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

Useless. It's their baby even though it has two heads. The bishop who heads the liturgical committee is fighting like heck to keep Rome from changing its diaper.


46 posted on 05/06/2006 8:50:09 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: ventana
Can you tell me the name of the article/publication you read, or provide a link? I'd like to read it.

Sorry, I have no idea. It's been quite a while.

47 posted on 05/07/2006 5:40:49 AM PDT by siunevada (If we learn nothing from history, what's the point of having one? - Peggy Hill)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
I do not have a problem with the Catholic church in General, nor do I wish to trash the Catholic church. I do however have a problem with the concept that the only way to Christianity is to submit yourself to the authority and teachings of the Catholic church, and the Pope. I personally have served in several different denominations, and currently serve in a Baptist church. As well I have several Catholic friends, and we share a deep mutual respect to each others religious values, as well as several doctrinal similarities. My concept is as long as you can respect me as a Christian, I respect you as a Christian, when one attempts to exclude me as a Christian solely because I worship under a different church sign, then they exclude only themselves. "Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." My deepest regards, and I hope we can come to terms on this point.
48 posted on 05/07/2006 6:45:43 AM PDT by whispering out loud (the bible is either 100% true, or in it's very nature it is 100% a lie)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Knitting A Conundrum
I have the old Challoner Douai Rheims, the Navarre Bible collection, and, bestof all imo, Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, the 1952 edition edited by Dom Orchard. Its great and can be found doing a search on used books. I got my copy from Australia years ago
49 posted on 05/07/2006 7:17:57 AM PDT by bornacatholic (Pope Paul VI. "Use of the old Ordo Missae is in no way left to the choice of priests or people.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: whispering out loud

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html


50 posted on 05/07/2006 7:26:28 AM PDT by bornacatholic (Pope Paul VI. "Use of the old Ordo Missae is in no way left to the choice of priests or people.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-66 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson