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Separation of church and State, Does the Left Really Want It?
May 31, 2006 | conserv 371

Posted on 05/31/2006 3:47:32 PM PDT by conserv371

I read much on the internet about the desire for the separation of church and state but do the liberals really want the results. One need to go to the New Testament to learn what is a time where there was this divide.

So let's suppose suddenly any link there is, is severed. First of all, you will get a pure church. People who are scared of persecution will not come. The church will view the world system as something to totally avoid. Members will be willing to go to jail and even die for their beliefs. There will be a fervency to win the lost and convert them to be disciples. Spiritual warfare will be employed and prayer will be powerful. There will be a hatred of sin but love of holiness. People in the church will take joy in persecution.

Right now, there is not a true separation of church and state. One must go to china where millions of Christians secretly meet and their numbers multiply. So does the left really want a separation of church and state?


TOPICS: Activism; Current Events; General Discusssion; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: church; left; separation; state

1 posted on 05/31/2006 3:47:33 PM PDT by conserv371
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To: conserv371
Some good points, but what the left (as a group) is completely failing to accept is the power of God and the sovereignty of His work on Earth through the Church... in fact, they could deny that last statement on many levels, saying:
1) There is no God.
2) Even if there _is_ a God, nobody can know His will because the Bible being translated/edited/revised/lies/whatever is not an accurate representation of His will.
3) The Church is corrupt/fake (as we know from the DaVinci Code), and so its leaders are working against God and the members are only hopeless dupes for mindlessly following along.

Needless to say that their perceptions do not match reality. However, like you pointed out, if persecution were to happen we would be left with people in the Church who were themselves strong in faith.
2 posted on 05/31/2006 3:57:38 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.)
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To: conserv371
Right now, there is not a true separation of church and state. One must go to china where millions of Christians secretly meet and their numbers multiply.

You're confusing separation of church and state with war between church and state.

Separation of church and state means the church does not rule over the general public or have authority in matters of government. Which is as it should be. It doesn't mean church and state at war; it means church and state addressing separate concerns.

3 posted on 05/31/2006 3:59:00 PM PDT by Darkwolf377 (All Hail Buah The Wasp Killer!!!!!)
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To: Darkwolf377
It doesn't mean church and state at war; it means church and state addressing separate concerns.

And as soon as the State gets its damn nose out of the Church's concerns (reproduction, family, welfare, etc) and acknowledges the Church as a separate, co-equal entity, I'll believe we have such a separation today.

4 posted on 05/31/2006 4:10:59 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 4:6)
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To: conserv371

http://www.persecution.com/ has a publication that it sends out, which has, on occasion, profiled people in France who are being persecuted for being Christian.

My point is that the time is about here--especially since teachers and administrators for schools cannot wear crosses, and Christmas carols are verboten--and Easter break is known only as spring........


5 posted on 05/31/2006 4:33:10 PM PDT by combat_boots (Dug in and not budging an inch. NOT to be schiavoed, greered, or felosed as a patient)
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To: Alex Murphy
And as soon as the State gets its damn nose out of the Church's concerns (reproduction, family, welfare, etc) and acknowledges the Church as a separate, co-equal entity, I'll believe we have such a separation today.

Very well stated. (I would add education to your list.)

Remember the Brezhnev Doctrine? It held that once a country had fallen under the heel of the Communists it was forever to remain so. In other words, what's ours is ours; what's your is negotiable.

Those who call for separation of Church and State practice their own form of the Brezhnev Doctrine. That is, once the State muscles in on part of the Church's domain, the Church is supposed to retreat forever.

6 posted on 05/31/2006 4:35:58 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Darkwolf377

Yeah. European countries without separation of church and state have watched as Leftist parliamentarians have exerted their influence to destroy the state churches.

The Church of Sweden's 1950s march into the ordination of women and radical feminism was mandated by the Socialists in the Swedish parliament. Socialism+state churches=dead churches.


7 posted on 05/31/2006 8:35:38 PM PDT by pravknight (Liberalism under the guise of magisterial teaching is still heresy)
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To: pravknight

Separation of Church and State in Europe means the regulation of the Church by state agencies, as in the 1905 law in France.


8 posted on 05/31/2006 8:52:51 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: pravknight
Socialism+state churches=dead churches.

Yup--they rightly see that where government has lost the moral leadership role the church grows more powerful, because it MEANS more (or at least more people see it as meaning more to their moral lives).

9 posted on 05/31/2006 11:18:20 PM PDT by Darkwolf377 (All Hail Buah The Wasp Killer!!!!!)
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To: conserv371; Alex Murphy; Logophile

Sounds like you are emhasizing the removal of God from the "State" and implying that the reverse would prevail (the State's imposition upon the Church).


conserv371:"Right now, there is not a true separation of church and state. One must go to china where millions of Christians secretly meet and their numbers multiply. So does the left really want a separation of church and state?"

I think one critical element you are forgetting is the common grace and blessing that God bestows upon this country because of it's godly leadership. Not that I believe all the leaders in the USA are godly, but that many of our principles are fundamentally of Christian origin.

God still has a presence in our nation's government and without this, I think our position would be much more grave than it already is...


10 posted on 06/01/2006 6:55:59 AM PDT by visually_augmented (I was blind, but now I see)
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To: visually_augmented

I am not saying I do not enjoy having Christians in politics. What I am saying it appears that when Christians face open persecution (jail, torture, martyrdom), then it seems to take the church to whole different level. When there is not separation, the Gospel can easily be watered down and God is Santa Claus and Jesus is just a buddy. A movie star can say they become a Christian and have no qualms starring in an X-rated film. A graphic illustration would be a guy taking the girl who he slept with the night before to church where they sing in the choir and take communion. Sunday becomes the day to pacify God.
I truly believe the day is coming in our country when the government will ask "Are you a follower of Jesus Christ?"
People will have to choose between persecution and comfort.
The hatred is growing not because of government but because liberals are scared that the majority desire Christianity.
The theocracy that they are scared of is people-driven not government-driven.


11 posted on 06/01/2006 8:24:00 AM PDT by conserv371
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To: Logophile
That is, once the State muscles in on part of the Church's domain, the Church is supposed to retreat forever.

This is true. Witness welfare, it used to be that the Church handled all the welfare in the country. (Feed the hungry, clothe the poor, etc.) But suddenly something happened that made that infeasible, that is the Great Depression. In the Great Depression, virtually everyone needed help. So, it was this extreme case which the church was unable to adequately address. Well, after the Depression left, people started turning to the state to try to make sure that things like that didn't happen again. And it was in this atmosphere that the state-sponsored welfare came into being.

And now we have a totally out-of-control welfare system in which the general citizenry (and the illegal immigrants, too) are convinced that they have a 'right' to.

12 posted on 06/01/2006 9:35:34 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.)
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: conserv371

Where exactly in the New Testament does it talk about a time where there was no separation of church and state? I would like to read about it.


14 posted on 07/21/2006 9:53:31 AM PDT by MuddyWaters2006
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To: conserv371

The left wants separation against those it wishes to suppress, and cohabitation with those it seeks to promote.


15 posted on 07/21/2006 10:31:56 AM PDT by ichabod1 (I have to take a shower.)
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