Posted on 06/11/2006 4:21:52 PM PDT by DouglasKC
A drunken driver loses control of his car and careens headfirst into a van, killing a family. A mother dies of breast cancer, leaving confused children and a grieving husband. An infant boy succumbs to a birth defect. A gentle, elderly lady dies quietly in her sleep. A desperate, depressed teenager commits suicide.
Maybe death would be different if it were predictable or consistent. But death can be so capricious. It hardly seems fair.
To us life is precious. But death is everywhere! We don't want to die. We don't want to see our loved ones die.
Self-preservation is a powerful instinct. We design special diets and exercise programs to keep us young and fit. Through medical science we seek to isolate the gene that makes us age, hoping somehow to eliminate death. A few have even arranged for their bodies to be preserved cryogenically in the hope that they can be brought back to life when the cure for what killed them is finally discovered.
Yet, for all our efforts, hopes and wishes, death is the one thing in life that remains certain. Whether through old age, illness, accident or violence, whether we are rich, poor, male or female, no matter if we're good or bad, all of us regardless of race or creed-die.
Scientists cannot tell us what happens after death. Too many aspects of life itself are intangible-too elusive to measure and record. Philosophers disagree on death and the afterlife.
Religions also disagree. Traditional Christian denominations generally teach that the souls of the dead live on in a place or condition of heaven or hell. Many non-Christians believe in the transmigration or reincarnation of souls at death. Still others believe the dead will never live again, that this life is all there is.
What really happens at death? Why do we even have to die? Can we know if there is life beyond the grave? Where can we go for meaningful, believable answers?
Only the Creator of life can reveal its purpose and the state of the dead. By looking into the Word of God for answers to our questions about death, we can learn a great deal about both life and death.
Join us now for a look at what God, our Creator, says about life and death in His inspired Word, the Bible. You may be both surprised and challenged by what you learn.
How are you going to read it without including the 'are'...Doesn't make a bit of sense without it...
"The wicked will experience eternal death because death is the most merciful fate a loving God could impose"
What you are not taking into consideration is that in the judgment of those whose names are not found in the book of life, God is not acting as a "merciful, loving God" but as a just and righteous judge who is meeting out the penalty just as He warned He would. In Rev. 16:17 the fateful phrase "it is done" ends His grace and mercy for those who haven't trusted Christ for salvation. Now they get what they deserve just as those who have trusted Christ get what they don't deserve. Both get eternal life, just as they wanted.
Gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. This was in the same "Valley of Hinnom" where the idolizing Israelites threw their children into the "Fires of Molech" in Old Testament times. During the first century this valley still had ever burning fires as it was used for refuse and even dead bodies of indigents and criminals were cast in there to be rid of them.
Gehenna....... A mis translation into the word "Hell" has caused a lot of confusion over the years.
Perhaps the most famous verse in the Bible. John 3:16. What does the word "perish" mean to you?
As I read it we receive either life or...... death.
I can just as easily insert the word "were" instead of "are" because neither appear in the Greek. If you use the word "were" it now makes more sense since we both know that flesh and blood being thrown into a "Lake of Fire" would be consumed and burned up.
[John 3:16] The choice is still "life or death".
And I suppose that, conversely, "hand" refers to help around the ranch.
Why is this a difficult concept for you? The Lord is saying, "If you have a hand or foot that causes you to sin, watch out!" If they are still attached you might be thrown into the Gehenna fire with all of the other criminal refuse. If you cut them off and throw them in....maybe the rest of your body will escape, entering the Kingdom of God maimed and crippled.....but entering nevertheless.
The fires of Hell are eternal.
You can, of course, provide scripture to support this position. I shall eagerly await its arrival.
However, if you're right, then you'll need to produce for me evidence of an actual "worm that does not die".
The only thing you have posted as evidence so far is [Mark 9:42-43] in post #20. I refuted that argument (post #23) that the word "Gehenna" that Jesus spoke was in no way the "Hell" that your church has instilled in your mind.
"Hell" is a mistranslation for the words "Gehenna"/garbage dump; "Tartarus"/gloomy dungeon of sinning Angels; and of course good old "Hades"/earthly grave. The only fiery end in scripture is the "Lake of Fire" [Revelation 20:14], the second death.
Some organizations have used the terror of an ever burning (unscriptural) hell to keep their folks in line. This would include the Protestants as well. It is false teaching and cannot be supported by any scripture. It has been perpetuated by an ignorant clergy with no thought for truth.
If you continue to throw dead bodies in a trash heap some may not burn immediately.....others not at all. Maggots (worms) will thrive....also continually. This was the "Gehenna" of the first century that Our Lord spoke of.
C'mon Diego, quit beating around the bush. Tell us what you really think. :)
Let's try a little experiment using natural language. Somehow you hear a sermon of Jesus today and He says:
"And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands to go into A BURNING GARBAGE DUMP, into unquenchable fire: Where there worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished."
(Mark 9:42, 43)
Hmmmmm, it would seem if God the Son Himself says "unquenchable fire" and a "worm that dieth not" it modifies His use of the word "BURNING GARBAGE DUMP." Clearly it is an analogy, easily understandable by those of the day--as a place of eternal punishment (since those garbage fires were forever burning)...for offending an eternally righteous Being.
This is what 99% of Christians have understood from this (and various other) words of Jesus for 2000 years. The soldier out of step is the "Church of God," not orthodox Christianity. There are very good reasons why that denomination is so tiny.
I'll take the words of Jesus over the arrogance of a rebellious sect any time.
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
My Bible software uses "damnation" for the KJV, but "condemnation", "judgment", and "accusation" are synonyms. But what is the opposite of life? Is it life with an eternal torment clause or eternal not-life or death?
I'll take the words of Jesus over the arrogance of a rebellious sect any time.
Somehow, I heard James Earl Jones in my head when I read that. I wonder why?
This is your answer for that pearl of wisdom Notice it is the many who are mis lead....not the few.
The Church of God was always portrayed in scripture [ Luke 12:32 ] as anything but a large, wealthy, politically influenced, worldly organization.
As in my response to reductio in post #27.....why is it hard for you to believe the Lord was speaking here, using an analogy. In your vision of an eternal hellfire and little fork tailed devils running around, how would it be a worm would survive? Would they have received eternal life also as you think the wicked are to receive?....contrary to all scripture. My scriptures say the wicked will receive death. [Rev. 21:8][Psalm 37:20][Romans 6:23] You can spin it until the cows come home but you cannot show me any scripture that says the wicked will live forever in an eternal hell fire. It is poppycock..... and most thinking adults should realize this.
Relishing and reality are two very different things. When Timothy McVeigh was excuted I, and I'm sure most of FR, didn't relish it, but we certainly did acknowledge that justice was done--and justice in itself is a good thing.
I for one cannot imagine what heaven is like...and the bible just gives us hints--telling us about the gates, the foundations and the streets, but that is it. We apparently don't have the capacity to take it all (or even some) in right now. We will though, see the unbelieveable righteousness of God, and, the totally just judgements from His hand...therefore the knowledge of hell itself will be right--as all will bend the knee to Christ.
No Christian "relishes" an idea hell (and Jesus Himself seemed to shudder at His own words), even though it surely seems Hitler, Stalin and Mao belong there...and that may well be exactly what they wanted...to their eternal pain. I can't imagine seeing anyone but the worst in such a situation though and agreeing (now) with the justice of it, but the reason I cannot, is my mind is darkened about the incredible goodness of God. Only when we understand the righteousness of God can we really understand the horror of sin (and therefore the justice of its punishment)...and today we all see in a glass darkly. Then we shall see face to face.
(by the way, as an evangelical conservative Anglican I regard (most) C of God folk as my Christian brethren, even if they can't return the favor.)
Shalom.
Again, it is the considered opinion now, and through all of history that scripture completely contradicts your (rare) view. When the direct quotes of Jesus are given, you just talk around the obvious adult meaning understood in normal language. No serious scholar taught, (nor does scripture) the charicature of "fork tailed devils" that is your attempt to make orthodoxy look absurd, they only read the natural meaning of exactly what Jesus said.
The ancient creeds (Apostles and Nicene) ALL acknowlege the physical resurrection of ALL the dead, NOT just Christians. Christians' bodies rise to eternal life, and non-Christians rise to eternal punishment. It is the C of God that has left orthodoxy, not visa versa.
If I were part of a church in which on a basic issue differed from 99% of Christians now, and throughout history, I would be defensive too.
Ancient Christian orthodox doctrine is not spin, it is the considered judgement of (many, many) devout scholars over the centuries on exactly what the Bible teaches.
But hey, I don't condemn all denominations but my own. Do you?
I understand your thinking on this and it does represent the thinking of most of the "Mainstream Church". I am not trying to be defensive, but you have to admit most folks would reply that "fork tailed devils" would be the order of the day for "their" view of hell.
If as you say, all the dead will be resurrected....where are those wicked dead right now? Are they asleep in their graves.....or are they receiving a preview of hell fire and damnation?
I am not a member of any church and I don't condemn anyone.
Just because a lot of people do something, that doesn't make it right. How many people voted for Gore? How many people voted for JohnvietnamKerry?
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You see, I used to believe as you; that souls are immortal and that the resurrection was either irrelevant or only relevant for some people to come at a later date. Then I read the Bible.
(by the way, as an evangelical conservative Anglican I regard (most) C of God folk as my Christian brethren, even if they can't return the favor.)
Dude, you tore into the Church of God just a minute ago and now you consider them brothers? Sheesh, what kind of dysfunctional family do you come from? Personally, I try my hardest not to judge people, but to identify evil and distance myself from that. That being said, I was beaming the day Zarkie got his. But I know that he sleeps now, and he may even have a chance to repent, depending on how you read the second resurrection. Here is another text you might want to meditate on:
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
That's what the "Nicest Boy In Kansas" told Perry Smith whle they were both on Death Row.
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