Posted on 06/11/2006 4:21:52 PM PDT by DouglasKC
There's no such thing as "mainstream Christianity". There's just Christianity. Christianity teaches that Hell is eternal, complete with a real burning fire. What is "unBiblical" is to state otherwise, because the Scriptures teach there's a Hell, people go there, it's got fire in it, and lasts forever.
Look, if Hell isn't, or, will eventually cease to exist, then there's no point to salvation. None. There's no need for a Savior, and Christ died in vain. However, He clearly did not die in vain, and anyone who claims that Hell isn't is just trying to talk people out of Christianity. No-brainer.
For enlightenment press here
If I wanted "enlightenment", I'd go join the Freemasons and, behind closed doors, wear aprons with other men. But see, engaging in such embarrassment would be far to high a price to pay for any so-called "enlightenment" I might receive.
"Enlightenment". Mmm-HM.
From the Catholic Catechism:
"1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":621
Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.622"
Try to copy and paste to your URL. It has more information.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/index/a.htm
26 Beautiful One-liners
1. Give God what's right -- not what's left.
2. Man's way leads to a hopeless end -- God's way leads to an endless hope.
3. A lot of kneeling will keep you in good standing.
4. He who kneels before God can stand before anyone.
5. In the sentence of life, the devil may be a comma--but never let him be the period.
6. Don't put a question mark where God puts a period.
7. Are you wrinkled with burden? Come to the church for a faith-lift.
8. When praying, don't give God instructions - just report for duty.
9. Don't wait for six strong men to take you to church.
10. We don't change God's message -- His message changes us.
11. The church is prayer-conditioned.
12. When God ordains, He sustains.
13. WARNING: Exposure to the Son may prevent burning.
14. Plan ahead -- It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark.
15. Most people want to serve God, but only in an advisory position.
16. Suffering from truth decay? Brush up on your Bible.
17. Exercise daily -- walk with the Lord.
18. Never give the devil a ride -- he will always want to drive.
19. Nothing else ruins the truth like stretching it.
20. Compassion is difficult to give away because it keeps coming back.
21. He who angers you controls you.
22. Worry is the darkroom in which negatives can develop.
23. Give Satan an inch & he'll be a ruler.
24. Be ye fishers of men -- you catch them & He'll clean them.
25. God doesn't call the qualified, He qualifies the called.
26. Read the Bible -- It will scare the hell out of you.
To me "Mainstream Christianity" is the Protestant and Catholic movements. This is not the "Church of God" spoken of in the New Testament.....twelve times.
because the Scriptures teach there's a Hell, people go there, it's got fire in it, and lasts forever.
You keep making this assertion but have yet to show me a scripture that will support it.
Look, if Hell isn't, or, will eventually cease to exist, then there's no point to salvation.
The fact that your organization teaches false doctrine should be a concern to you. It has been explained numerous times on this thread that we are given the choice of eternal life....or eternal death. John 3:16 tells us that those not given eternal life will perish. Now, if you have trouble comprehending what that word means....I cannot help you. If you do understand that the word perish means to die.....then we have common ground.
The scriptures teach that we will die....once....some twice. [Rev. 20:14] The ones that don't die twice will receive eternal life. The ones who receive the second death will receive eternal death. [Romans 6:23] Those who have died know nothing, feel no pain, have no thoughts. [Ecclesiastes 9:5] Those who will die the second death will also have no thoughts, feel no pain.....but will never participate in another resurrection to life as they will be destroyed in the "Lake of Fire".
Now, if you can show me a scripture that refutes exactly what I have just told you....fine, we'll continue. But, if all you are going to do is spout off some non Biblical doctrine that some unlearned clergy has taught you over the years.....then we have nothing more to discuss.
{Revelation 20:5-6] (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
In the above verses "the rest of the dead" are referring to those who did not take part in the first resurrection, verse 4. These are the folks who never had a chance during their lifetime to know the "Word". During their next lifetime they will indeed be given the opportunity to understand God's plan (second chance) for them and they will choose between eternal life......or eternal death. If you think about it, many folks who do not understand the Bible and unfortunately have learned false doctrines during their lifetimes, never really had a first chance....did they?
[Then death and Hades (the grave) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.] [Revelation 20:14-15]
Your eternity is fixed at the moment of your death.
Are you certain of this?
The Catholic Church isn't moving anywhere.
You keep making this assertion but have yet to show me a scripture that will support it.
I gave you one, and then another. If I keep giving you more, you'll find a way to explain them away.
The fact that your organization teaches false doctrine should be a concern to you.
Not according to you. According to you, why should I be concerned if it is true what you say, that there is no Hell, or, at least a Hell that doesn't last forever? I'd say it's the other way around: the person who ought to be concerned is the one who has been told that Hell is real, eternal, and hot, but chooses to imagine it isn't.
"It has been explained numerous times on this thread that we are given the choice of eternal life....or eternal death. John 3:16 tells us that those not given eternal life will perish. Now, if you have trouble comprehending what that word means....I cannot help you."
I'm impossible to help, because I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a Hell, with fire, and eternal, and that souls go there. I believe this with more certainty than that the sum of two and two are five. Four! Sorry, four.
Those who have died know nothing, feel no pain, have no thoughts. [Ecclesiastes 9:5] Those who will die the second death will also have no thoughts, feel no pain".
If so, then what's to be a-feared of? Where's the sense of urgency?
Now, if you can show me a scripture that refutes exactly what I have just told you....fine, we'll continue."
Alright, here's another... the Scripture where Christ says of Judas "better if he had not been born". I'm too lazy to look it up, but you know of if I'm sure, being part of the Church of God and stuff. It's simple, watch: if, as you say, the unsaved-dead feel no pain, think no thoughts, know nothing, and if it is also the case that the not-born feel no pain, think no thoughts, and know nothing, then it is impossible that for one to be better off not being born, as both not-born and unsaved-dead states are the same. Simple.
But, if all you are going to do is spout off some non Biblical doctrine that some unlearned clergy has taught you over the years.....then we have nothing more to discuss.
Ah see, now you're allowing yourself to get upset about this. Take a few deep breaths, bring the pride down a couple chunks and let's continue.
Whether there is "fire" or not, suffice it to say, it will be a place of great suffering.
Years ago, I read the Diary of Sr. Faustina, a recently cannonized saint. She was polish nun who received apparitions and locutions from our Lord. She recorded in her diary that Jesus took her to Hell so that she could warn sinners. I'll have to go get it for the exact wording but the two things I remember about it were, one, many souls that were there, did not believe in Hell when they lived on earth, and second, she saw many "pits of torture".
I remember getting the chills after reading it.
Also, you should also google "children of Fatima" they had a vision of Hell and described an eternal fire so terrifying, that after the vision, they begged the Blessed Virgin that our Lord would bring them to heaven, it so terrified them. I'll try and find it.
Okay, found it, here is a snipet...
At Fatima, the Blessed Virgin Mary told the three child seers that many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray or make sacrifices for them. In her Memoirs, Sister Lucy describes the vision of hell that Our Lady showed the children at Fatima:
"She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear."
marker, just a place marker
Clearly the latter, love, is better than the former; more pure, more perfect. It is also clear that one can begin on the path of salvation motivated by fear, but complete that road motivated by love, as the beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord.
According to your position so far, however, no positive motivation has been fleshed out, and the negative motivation has been abandoned altogether.
Why, then, would anyone need to enlist with your Church except for the motivation of NOT belonging to another one that teaches seemingly irksome truths?
Here:
"But I noticed one thing: That most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell." (Diary 741)
People choose what they will believe and what they will not believe, but even the ancient pagans knew of Hades.
What Happens After Death?
No one knows...................
But, just prior to death, everyone craps their pants.
Thanks Matt & Trey!
Oh, did you get that online or do you have the book?
Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
I'm not sure how that proves the point. Like everyone, Judas will be resurrected. He will go through a judgement period. No doubt it will be harsh and quite a mental torment. Imagine KNOWING that you had a hand in killing the messiah, the saviour. Imagine the guilt, the shame, maybe anger, frustration. He will then have to complemplate that his friends and family will have eternal bliss, while his fate will be to be the lake of fire to be burned up, possibly alive.
Indeed, it would have been better for him if he had not been born.
It doesn't! And that is why I gave up on any future discourse unless some admissions were made which were very plain in scripture. When scripture says something very specifically.... but one's theology contradicts that scripture, I can understand how it would be difficult to face that reality. I think we have witnessed a great case of difficulty.
By the way....I forgot to thank you for this thread. it has been a delightful read.
"Seeing it is a just thing with God to repay tribulation to them that trouble you: And to you who are troubled, rest with us when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, with the angels of his power: In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power: When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be made wonderful in all them who have believed; because our testimony was believed upon you in that day."
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