What Happens After Death?

Goodnews Magazine ^ | 1997 | Various

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal!

[reductio]

Where did I do that?

[Religion Moderator]

First sentence, first paragraph, post 80 - reading the correspondent's mind, e.g. "A pretend concern..." "How would you twist ..."

[Diego1618]

Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

As I have stated in other posts, the second death will be eternal (everlasting) death (destruction) and eternal separation from God. Here are eight different translations for you and I believe they all say the same. Eternal (everlasting) death (destruction) with no hope of a physical resurrection. I cannot see any eternal fiery Hell in these words.

The Douay-Rheims also says Eternal destruction. The punishment is eternal separation from God. This does not say eternal agony in the flames of Hell.

[reductio]

How is it a punishment if the one who is punished can't think any thoughts or feel any pain, and in short, cease to exist as you claim? One who has ceased to exist isn't being "eternally punished". It makes no sense whatsoever.

[Diego1618]

One who has ceased to exist isn't being "eternally punished".

He's not? 23rd Psalm. I guess to me it all about not dwelling in the house of The Lord......forever.

[reductio]

On the contrary, if one takes your view, there is no glory. No glory is possible. If placed in purely humanistic terms so as to allow for a parallel, if one goes to war where there is no death, no horrible consequence, no bitter alternative, then there is no reason for glory if one is victorious in battle. As it is in the natural, so much more so is it in the supernatural. The Scriptures speak to us in this same type.

I say that your ideas would let souls to hope for non-existence, will motivate no one towards anything lofty at all but will rather give false reason for souls not to try to attain the Beatific Vision of God as He is. Why, when the alternative is a non-threatening non-existence. It is not a biblical view, but rather an entirely pagan assumption concerning reality.

The primary reason for rejection of your view is the pure and complete retention of the truth. An ancillary reason has been provided above.

[Diego1618]

If placed in purely humanistic terms so as to allow for a parallel, if one goes to war where there is no death, no horrible consequence, no bitter alternative, then there is no reason for glory if one is victorious in battle.

Being thrown alive into a lake of fire.......to be destroyed, never again resurrecting to life, eternally separated from the glory of God would be: deadly (where there is no death), a sentence for lawbreaking (a horrible consequence), and complete, eternal apartness from God's glory (a bitter alternative).

A belief in the immortality of the soul is your stumbling block. Only once in scripture is anyone called immortal....and that is Christ. [2 Timothy 1:10]

[DouglasKC]

A belief in the immortality of the soul is your stumbling block. Only once in scripture is anyone called immortal....and that is Christ. [2 Timothy 1:10]

A great verse that bears repeating, but it's 1 Timothy 6:16 you're probably thinking of:

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

NASB:

1Ti 6:15 which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

According to the bible, there's no such thing as an immortal soul, except for Christ's soul. That will change at the return of Christ.

[Diego1618]

A great verse that bears repeating, but it's 1 Timothy 6:16 you're probably thinking of:

You are correct. Thank you for posting that as I'm sure some would wonder what I was talking about????? LOL

Thanks again for a great thread.

[reductio]

Being thrown alive into a lake of fire.......to be destroyed, never again resurrecting to life, eternally separated from the glory of God would be: deadly (where there is no death), a sentence for lawbreaking (a horrible consequence), and complete, eternal apartness from God's glory (a bitter alternative).

How can one in "complete, eternal apartness" from God's glory, be sentenced, involved in a bitter alternative, or otherwise in a bad way if they no longer exist?

What's there to risk if I were to believe what you believe?

[Diego1618]

What's there to risk if I were to believe what you believe?

You risk eternal death. You do not risk burning forever "alive" in a hellfire because that is a fairy tale.

[reductio]

So if I don't believe that Hell is not eternal, I'll anger God so much that I will suffer eternally but won't know it?

[reductio]

What exactly do you mean when you use the word immortality?

[DouglasKC]

What exactly do you mean when you use the word immortality?

I didn't use the word. The bible did. Here's the greek word that's translated as "immortality" in the bible:

From Thayers Lexicon:

athanasia
Thayer Definition:
1) undying, immortality, everlasting

Strongs G110:

athanasia
From a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and G2288; deathlessness: - immortality.

This same word is used by Paul in 1 Corinthians.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality , then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

So you see, there is nobody immortal, not subject to death, except for Christ. Christians become immortal at the return of Christ (at the last trumpet, reference Rev. 11:15). That's what the bible says. Traditional Christianity teaches that the saved and the unsaved are already immortal.

Another scripture that I found today:

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Note that God says that the fate of the wicked IS death, while the fate of the saved is to live. Clearly both the wicked and the saved die a physical death. But the saved go on to immortal life, while the wicked go to the second death.

The wicked SURELY die.

[reductio]

So you see, there is nobody immortal, not subject to death, except for Christ.

Christ died.

Seems you're simply not distinguishing between the death of the body and the death of the soul.

[DouglasKC]

So you see, there is nobody immortal, not subject to death, except for Christ. Christ died.

Christ became the man Jesus, a mortal, subject to death the same as we are. He really did die. He was resurrected and became immortal and now lives. That's why the bible says he alone has immortality. Nobody else has been resurrected to immortality:

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Seems you're simply not distinguishing between the death of the body and the death of the soul.

Souls die:

Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

[reductio]

Christ became the man Jesus, a mortal, subject to death the same as we are.

But of course, the Scriptures state that the wages of sin is death; death is the consequence of sin. Therefore, to say that Christ was subject to death just as we sinners are is to posit that Christ was a sinner, which clearly is not the case.

Christ is both true God and true man, was sinless, and would not have died unless it was by violent action enacted upon Him by others.

[reductio]

Souls die:

Eternal death, yes. Do you believe that this death of soul equates to a ceasing-to-be?

[DouglasKC]

But of course, the Scriptures state that the wages of sin is death; death is the consequence of sin. Therefore, to say that Christ was subject to death just as we sinners are is to posit that Christ was a sinner, which clearly is not the case.

Christ, being the saviour sent to save us from our sins, was a propitiation for sin:

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He took on the penalty for our sins, all of us, all of them, everyone who ever lived and will live, all were assigned to him:

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

So although he didn't personally sin, all of our sins were imputed to him and he died because of it.