Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Mary and the Muslims (an eye opener)
Catholic Military ^ | Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

Posted on 06/26/2006 6:15:02 PM PDT by NYer

Muslimism is the only great post-Christian religion of the world. Because it had its origin in the 7th century under Mohammed, it was possible to unite within it some elements of Christianity and of Judaism, along with particular customs of Arabia . Muslimism takes the doctrine of the unity of God, his majesty and his creative power, and uses it, in part, as a basis for the repudiation of Christ, the Son of God. Misunderstanding the notion of the Trinity, Mohammed made Christ a prophet announcing himself (Mohammed) just as to Christians, Isaiah and John the Baptist are prophets announcing Christ.

The Christian European West barely escaped destruction at the hands of the Muslims. At one point they were stopped near Tours and at another point, later on in time, outside the gates of Vienna . The Church throughout northern Africa was practically destroyed by Muslim power, and at the present hour, the Muslims are beginning to rise again.

If Muslimism is a heresy, as Hilaire Belloc believes it to be, it is the only heresy that has never declined. Others have had a moment of vigor, then gone into doctrinal decay at the death of the leader, and finally evaporated in a vague social movement. Muslimism, on the contrary, has only had its first phase. There was never a time in which it declined, either in numbers, or in the devotion of its followers.

The missionary effort of the Church toward this group has been, at least on the surface, a failure. For the Muslims are so far almost unconvertible. The reason is that for a follower of Mohammed to become a Christian is much like a Christian becoming a Jew. The Muslims believe that they have the final and definitive revelation of God to the world and that Christ was only a prophet announcing Mohammed, the last of God's real prophets.

At the present time, the hatred of the Muslim countries against the West is becoming a hatred against Christianity itself. Although the statesmen have not yet taken it into account, there is still grave danger that the temporal power of Islam may return, and with it, the menace that it may shake off a West which has ceased to be Christian, and affirm itself as a great anti-Christian world power. Muslim writers say, "When the locust swarms darken countries, they bear on their wings these Arabic words: We are God's host, each of us has ninety-nine eggs, and if we had a hundred, we should lay waste the world, with all that is in it."

The problem is, how shall we prevent the hatching of the hundredth egg? It is our firm belief that the fears some entertain concerning the Muslims are not to realized, but that Muslimism, instead, will eventually be converted to Christianity--and in a way that even some of our missionaries never suspect. It is our belief that this will happen not through the direct teachings of Christianity, but through a summoning of the Muslims to a veneration of the Mother of God. This is the line of argument:

MARY

The Qu'ran, which is the Bible for the Muslims, has many passages concerning the Blessed Virgin. First of all, the Qu'ran believes in her Immaculate Conception, and also in her Virgin Birth. The third chapter of the Qu'ran places the history of Mary's family in a genealogy which goes back through Abraham, Noah, and Adam. When one compares the Qu'ran's description of the birth of Mary with the apocryphal Gospel of the birth of Mary, one is tempted to believe that Mohammed very much depended upon the latter. Both books describe the old age and the definite sterility of the mother of Mary. When, however, she conceives, the mother of Mary is made to say in the Qu'ran: "O Lord, I vow and I consecrate to you what is already within me. Accept it from me."

When Mary is born, the mother says: And I consecrate her with all of her posterity under thy protection, O Lord, against Satan!"

The Qu'ran passes over Joseph in the life of Mary, but the Muslim tradition knows his name and has some familiarity with him. In this tradition, Joseph is made to speak to Mary, who is a virgin. As he inquired how she conceived Jesus without a father, Mary answered:

Do you not know that God, when he created the wheat had no need of seed, and that God by his power made the trees grow without the help of rain? All that God had to do was to say, 'So be it, and it was done.'

The Qu'ran was also verses on the Annunciation, Visitation, and Nativity. Angels are pictured as accompanying the Blessed Mother and saying: "Oh, Mary, God has chosen you and purified you, and elected you above all the women of the earth." In the nineteenth chapter of the Qu'ran there are 41 verses on Jesus and Mary. There is such a strong defense of the virginity of Mary here that the Qu'ran, in the fourth book, attributed the condemnation of the Jews to their monstrous calumny against the Virgin Mary.

FATIMA

Mary, then, is for the Muslims the true Sayyida, or Lady. The only possible serious rival to her in their creed would be Fatima, the daughter of Mohammed himself. But after the death of Fatima, Mohammed wrote: "Thou shalt be the most blessed of all women in Paradise , after Mary." In a variation of the text, Fatima is made to say, "I surpass all the women, except Mary."

This brings us to our second point: namely, why the Blessed Mother, in the 20th century, should have revealed herself in the significant little village of Fatima , so that to all future generations she would be known as "Our Lady of Fatima." Since nothing ever happens out of Heaven except with a finesse of all details, I believe that the blessed Virgin chose to be known as "Our Lady of Fatima" as a pledge and a sign of hope to the Muslim people, and as an assurance that they, who show her so much respect, will one day accept her divine Son too.

Evidence to support these views is found in the historical fact that the Muslims occupied Portugal for centuries. At the time when they were finally driven out, the last Muslim chief had a beautiful daughter by the name of Fatima . A Catholic boy fell in love with her, and for him she not only stayed behind when the Muslims left, but even embraced the faith. The young husband was so much in love with her that he changed the name of the town where he lived to Fatima . Thus, the very place where our lady appeared in 1917 bears a historical connection to Fatima, the daughter of Mohammed.

The final evidence of the relationship of Fatima to the Muslims is the enthusiastic reception which the Muslims in Africa, India , and elsewhere gave to the pilgrim statue of Our Lady of Fatima. Muslims attended the church services in honor of our Lady, they allowed religious processions and even prayers before their mosques; and in Mozambique, the Muslims who were unconverted, began to be Christian as soon as the statue of Our Lady of Fatima was erected.

MISSIONARIES

Missionaries in the future will, more and more, see that their apostolate among the Muslims will be successful in the measure that they preach Our Lady of Fatima. Mary is the advent of Christ, bringing Christ to the people before Christ himself is born. In an apologetic endeavor, it is always best to start with that which people already accept. Because the Muslims have a devotion to Mary, our missionaries should be satisfied merely to expand and to develop that devotion, with the full realization that Our Blessed Lady will carry the Muslims the rest of the way to her divine Son. She is forever a "traitor," in the sense that she will not accept any devotion for herself, but will always bring anyone who is devoted to her to her divine Son. As those who lose devotion to her lose belief in the divinity of Christ, so those who intensify devotion to her gradually acquire that belief.

Many of our great missionaries in Africa have already broken down the bitter hatred and prejudices of the Muslims against the Christians through their acts of charity, their schools and hospitals. It now remains to use another approach, namely, that of taking the 41st chapter of the Quran and showing them that it was taken out of the Gospel of Luke, that Mary could not be, even in their own eyes, the most blessed of all the women of Heaven if she had not also borne One who was the Savior of the world. If Judith and Esther of the Old Testament were pre-figures of Mary, then it may very well be that Fatima herself was a post-figure of Mary! The Muslims should be prepared to acknowledge that, if Fatima must give way in honor to the Blessed Mother, it is because she is different from all the other mothers of the world and that without Christ she would be nothing.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; History; Islam; Judaism; Ministry/Outreach; Prayer; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: archbishopsheen; bvm; crushislam; imams; iraq; islam; mary; muslims; waronterror
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-60 next last

1 posted on 06/26/2006 6:15:05 PM PDT by NYer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...

A bit dated but totally on target!


2 posted on 06/26/2006 6:16:07 PM PDT by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Well, it looks like the good Archbishop was ahead of everybody else . . .


3 posted on 06/26/2006 6:27:32 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: NYer

as soon as I learned that Mary is revered by Muslims, I believed that she would somehow be the key to peace.


4 posted on 06/26/2006 7:26:32 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (orwell's watching)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: the invisib1e hand

Lets hope Mother Mary The Blessed Virgin helps the world as a guide to peace. Ops4 God Bless The World!


5 posted on 06/26/2006 8:07:09 PM PDT by OPS4 (Ops4 God Bless America!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: NYer
First things first, I agree with Hillaire Belloc. Everything else is moot.
6 posted on 06/26/2006 8:12:29 PM PDT by BIGLOOK (Keelhauling is a sensible solution to mutiny.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

The False Prophet is easily identified as Mohammed.


7 posted on 06/26/2006 8:18:17 PM PDT by shield (A wise man's heart is at his RIGHT hand; but a fool's heart at his LEFT. Ecc. 10:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: shield

I'm in 100% agreement with that.


8 posted on 06/26/2006 8:22:24 PM PDT by glaseatr (Proud Father of a Marine, Uncle of SGT Adam Estep A. 2/5 Cav. KIA Thurs April 29, 2004 Baghdad Iraq)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Convert from ECUSA; Dajjal; warriorforourlady

Ping!


9 posted on 06/26/2006 8:33:56 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you wish to go to extremes, let it be in... patience, humility, & charity." -St. Philip Neri)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: the invisib1e hand
I believed that (Mary) would somehow be the key to peace.

I do too.


10 posted on 06/26/2006 8:44:40 PM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: the invisib1e hand; murphE
Here's another piece of the puzzle:


St. John Bosco's Dream of Two Pillars: One of Mary, and One of the Eucharist.

11 posted on 06/26/2006 8:49:24 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you wish to go to extremes, let it be in... patience, humility, & charity." -St. Philip Neri)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: OPS4
Lets hope Mother Mary The Blessed Virgin helps the world as a guide to peace.

Only by guiding the muzzies to her Son, Jesus Christ. IOW, by leading them to become Christians. As long as they hold on to the mohammedan faith, there'll be trouble.

12 posted on 06/26/2006 9:21:23 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Incredibly prophetic, let's hope it will happen this way. We may need another apparition to get it started, however, possibly in a predominately Muslim country.
13 posted on 06/26/2006 10:32:18 PM PDT by Ronaldus Magnus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: murphE
I have G.K. Chesterton's poem, Lepanto in my profile. The power of the rosary, and the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary is absolutely amazing.

Glory be to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

14 posted on 06/27/2006 5:27:59 AM PDT by Theoden (Liberate te ex inferis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: NYer
A bit dated but totally on target!

Catholics and Muslims, harmonizing their beliefs by rallying around the central figure of Mary. I couldn't agree more.

15 posted on 06/27/2006 5:29:12 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luk 24:45)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

http://www.soufanieh.com/menuenglish.htm


16 posted on 06/27/2006 5:39:56 AM PDT by Nihil Obstat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD; NYer
Catholics and Muslims, harmonizing their beliefs by rallying around the central figure of Mary. I couldn't agree more.

Jews, Christians and Muslims are in full agreement about Moses and the Ten Commandments as well, I guess you would now dispute the validity of that.

17 posted on 06/27/2006 5:41:35 AM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
Catholics and Muslims, harmonizing their beliefs by rallying around the central figure of Mary. I couldn't agree more.

Dear Sir, I find your statement above curious for a number of reasons, namely:

1. The above article contains no indication of Catholics "harmonizing" their beliefs with Muslims. It contains reports of ways the Blessed Virgin Mary has brought followers of Islam to embrace the Lord Jesus as their Saviour, and no information whatsoever concerning Catholics embracing Mohammad.

2. After positing that this article shows "Catholics and Muslims harmonizing their beliefs," you go on to say, "I couldn't agree more."

If it is, in fact, your point that the Archbishop is "harmonizing" beliefs this way, why on earth would you agree with that? What you seem to be saying, Sir, is that you "couldn't agree more" that a group of your Christian brothers and sisters, who have accepted the Lord Jesus as their Saviour, are in your, (I believe erroneous,) view moving further towards the edges of renouncing Him in favour of the faith of the Muslims.

I can hardly understand this from a position of Christian charity, so I must beg your pardon and request your clarification.
18 posted on 06/27/2006 5:55:46 AM PDT by Lilllabettt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Although the statesmen have not yet taken it into account, there is still grave danger that the temporal power of Islam may return, and with it, the menace that it may shake off a West which has ceased to be Christian,

Exactly.

This is why I just can't get enthused about the war on terror, the invasion of Iraq, al-Qaeda, the hunt for Osama and all the other supposed hot issues which government keeps in front of us.

The answer to these problems will not be found in bombs and bullets. It will come when we have a change of heart and turn once again to the Christian message.

Do we seriously expect to live in peace while we wage war on the unborn, for instance, and our own hands are dripping with blood? Are we going to come before God and ask him to protect us from the Muslim murderer while we ourselves are busy butchering his own children in the womb?

Hardly.

19 posted on 06/27/2006 6:13:37 AM PDT by marshmallow
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BIGLOOK

Hillaire Belloc is spot on the money.


20 posted on 06/27/2006 6:36:27 AM PDT by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Lilllabettt; wagglebee
1. The above article contains no indication of Catholics "harmonizing" their beliefs with Muslims.

"...is that you "couldn't agree more" that a group of your Christian brothers and sisters, who have accepted the Lord Jesus as their Saviour, are in your, (I believe erroneous,) view moving further towards the edges of renouncing Him in favour of the faith of the Muslims."


21 posted on 06/27/2006 6:58:39 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luk 24:45)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Theoden

Hey, thanks for posting Chesterton's poem. It's awesome.


22 posted on 06/27/2006 7:08:37 AM PDT by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: bboop

Your welcome.


23 posted on 06/27/2006 7:46:16 AM PDT by Theoden (Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum europe vincendarum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD; Lilllabettt
I believe the veneration of Mary to be in serious error.

Perhaps because you cannot distinguish between veneration and worship.

I cannot imagine John preaching the veneration of Mary while in prison in the last stages of his life, can you?

Actually I can, I would assume that the Beloved Disciple came to know the Blessed Mother very well as he was entrusted with Her care by our Lord, this was necessary because our Savior had no siblings to care for His Mother.

24 posted on 06/27/2006 7:56:23 AM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Northern Yankee; Victoria Delsoul; NYer

Another Bishop Fulton J. Sheen winner of a "ping!"


25 posted on 06/27/2006 8:08:47 AM PDT by kstewskis ("Aim small, miss small...." Benjamin Martin to Nathan and Samuel)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ronaldus Magnus; murphE; Pyro7480
We may need another apparition to get it started, however, possibly in a predominately Muslim country.

Actually, this has already happened. In 2000, the Blessed Mother appeared at Zeitoun, Egypt.

You can watch video clips of the event at the following link.

Apparitions Of Virgin Mary At Zeitoun Church

26 posted on 06/27/2006 8:26:54 AM PDT by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD; wagglebee
Rather it is through the veneration of "the Mother of God" people will be saved.

Harley, we've had these discussions before. Catholics and Orthodox venerate Mary. She can save no one. What she can and often does, is lead men to salvation in her Son. The expression in Latin is Ad Jesum per Mariam - to Jesus through Mary.

27 posted on 06/27/2006 8:31:48 AM PDT by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: NYer
The Mother Of All Religions?
Commentary by Rojer Oakland

One final question: Will the statements made at the “Future of God” Congress held in Fatima , Portugal in October of 2003 be fulfilled? From a biblical perspective, the answer is, yes. We are living in the very period of time the Bible reveals would occur before the return of Jesus Christ.

If current events such as we have been describing are shocking to you, get ready there will be a lot more ahead. Jesus said that “many” would be deceived by “many”. Wake up. Don’t be a part of that group.

28 posted on 06/27/2006 11:50:59 AM PDT by Sopater (Creatio Ex Nihilo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
As those who lose devotion to her lose belief in the divinity of Christ, so those who intensify devotion to her gradually acquire that belief.

I have absolutely no devotion to the mother of Jesus...

So what will unite Catholics and muzlims are apparitions and ghosts and the Queen of Heaven...

And we non-Catholic Christians will still be infidels to the Catholic/Muzlim alliance and still be 'anethema' to them...

Jesus Christ as God (a third of the Trinity) has no Mother...

29 posted on 06/27/2006 11:54:06 AM PDT by Iscool (I spent MOST of my MONEY on cold beer and hot women...The REST, I just wasted ...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Upon learning this, the Nuke Mecca crowd immediately moves to take out Fatima, Guadeloupe and Lourdes...


30 posted on 06/27/2006 11:55:54 AM PDT by zimdog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Sopater
The other religious traditions in the world are part of God's plan for humanity and the Holy Spirit is operating and present in Buddhist, Hindu and other sacred writings of Christian and non-Christian faiths as well. The universality of God's kingdom permits this, and this is nothing more than a diversified form of sharing in the same mystery of salvation. In the end it is hoped that the Christian will become a better Christian and each Hindu a better Hindu.

From your link and a Catholic Cardinal...

So this is what Catholics mean by a 'universal' church...How much more proof do we need that we are NOW in the end times???

31 posted on 06/27/2006 12:04:01 PM PDT by Iscool (I spent MOST of my MONEY on cold beer and hot women...The REST, I just wasted ...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Iscool
Jesus Christ as God (a third of the Trinity) has no Mother...

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

32 posted on 06/27/2006 12:25:01 PM PDT by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: kstewskis
Thanks Karen...

Talk to you later.

33 posted on 06/27/2006 12:34:48 PM PDT by Northern Yankee ( Stay The Course!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

So before Jesus was born in the flesh, there was only a Duopoly??? I don't think so!

Jesus as God was there to take part in the Creation...The Trinity has always been there...

There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the

I don't see any logic there...If you are a father, your son's mother does not become your mother...Your son is part of you but his mother is not...Where is that illogical???

34 posted on 06/27/2006 12:48:35 PM PDT by Iscool (I spent MOST of my MONEY on cold beer and hot women...The REST, I just wasted ...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Sopater

"If current events such as we have been describing are shocking to you, get ready there will be a lot more ahead. Jesus said that “many” would be deceived by “many”. Wake up. Don’t be a part of that group."
____________________________________________

Thank you for the link.


35 posted on 06/27/2006 1:08:13 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Iscool
So before Jesus was born in the flesh, there was only a Duopoly??? I don't think so!

Of course not. There always was a Trinity. Motherhood involves a person-to-person relationship with the child, not the mere act of conceiving offspring. Since Mary had a mother-son relationship with with the Second Person of the Trinity made flesh, she is truly the Mother of God.

36 posted on 06/27/2006 1:13:29 PM PDT by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Iscool; NYer; Convert from ECUSA; Dajjal; Maeve
And we non-Catholic Christians will still be infidels to the Catholic/Muzlim alliance and still be 'anethema' to them...

A Catholic/"Muzlim" (sic) alliance? LOL! Tinfoil alert!

Saying Jesus is a "third" of the Trinity doesn't make sense either. Each person is fully God, though there is only one God. It is more accurate to say that He is the Second Person of the Trinity.

37 posted on 06/27/2006 1:23:31 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you wish to go to extremes, let it be in... patience, humility, & charity." -St. Philip Neri)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: NYer
"Since Mary had a mother-son relationship with with the Second Person of the Trinity made flesh, she is truly the Mother of God."
_____________________________

I read in the Chicago Tribune, sunday Perspective dated 6/25/06 that "American bishops voted to change the words that the faithful have said in mass for decades. Instead of saying that Jesus was "born of the Virgin Mary" Roman Catholics will now recite that he was "incarnate of the Virgin Mary".

Is this true and if so does it change your position that Mary was the "Mother of God"?
38 posted on 06/27/2006 1:24:51 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: NYer
"Since Mary had a mother-son relationship with with the Second Person of the Trinity made flesh, she is truly the Mother of God."
_____________________________

I read in the Chicago Tribune, sunday Perspective dated 6/25/06 that "American bishops voted to change the words that the faithful have said in mass for decades. Instead of saying that Jesus was "born of the Virgin Mary" Roman Catholics will now recite that he was "incarnate of the Virgin Mary".

Is this true and if so does it change your position that Mary was the "Mother of God"?
39 posted on 06/27/2006 1:25:47 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: NYer
"Since Mary had a mother-son relationship with with the Second Person of the Trinity made flesh, she is truly the Mother of God."
_____________________________

I read in the Chicago Tribune, sunday Perspective dated 6/25/06 that "American bishops voted to change the words that the faithful have said in mass for decades. Instead of saying that Jesus was "born of the Virgin Mary" Roman Catholics will now recite that he was "incarnate of the Virgin Mary".

Is this true and if so does it change your position that Mary was the "Mother of God"?
40 posted on 06/27/2006 1:26:06 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: NYer
"Since Mary had a mother-son relationship with with the Second Person of the Trinity made flesh, she is truly the Mother of God."
_____________________________

I read in the Chicago Tribune, sunday Perspective dated 6/25/06 that "American bishops voted to change the words that the faithful have said in mass for decades. Instead of saying that Jesus was "born of the Virgin Mary" Roman Catholics will now recite that he was "incarnate of the Virgin Mary".

Is this true and if so does it change your position that Mary was the "Mother of God"?
41 posted on 06/27/2006 1:26:12 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Sorry for the triple post, my computer must be acting up.


42 posted on 06/27/2006 1:27:33 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Iscool
Let's consider the age-old heresy of Nestorius. He was a bishop who claimed that the Blessed Virgin bore only Christ's human nature in her womb.

This heresy would have divided Christ into two separate persons, one human and one divine, only one of which was carried in the womb of the Blessed Virgin.

The Council of Ephesus, in the year 431 AD, defined that Mary can be referred to as the Mother of God, not meaning that she is older than God or His source, but in the sense that the person she carried in her womb was, truly in fact, God incarnate, God enfleshed.

Note that this ecumenical decree is just as much about Jesus as it is about Mary. It was designed to protect the sacred truth that Christ is one Divine person with two natures.
.
This is a very ancient heresy, a very ancient Council. Theotokos, or God-bearer is a very ancient Marian title. The vast majority of Christians, from the earliest days of the Church until now, have confessed it.

Even today, those who wish to be provacative and incendiary where Christology is concerned, don't want to be anything as stale and dusty as Nestorian heretics.
43 posted on 06/27/2006 1:33:59 PM PDT by Lilllabettt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow

>>>Do we seriously expect to live in peace while we wage war on the unborn, for instance, and our own hands are dripping with blood? Are we going to come before God and ask him to protect us from the Muslim murderer while we ourselves are busy butchering his own children in the womb? <<<

An Amen from the Protestant corner.


44 posted on 06/27/2006 1:35:43 PM PDT by investigateworld (Abortion stops a beating heart)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: wmfights; Iscool
Is this true and if so does it change your position that Mary was the "Mother of God"?

It doesn't change the belief it all. It's just a better translation, instead of the slightly dumbed-down "born of the Virgin Mary." The line in the Latin text (the origin Creed text was in Greek) is incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto ex María Vírgine: Et homo factus est. This translates as, "[He] And He became flesh by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary: and was made man." Earlier in the Creed, Catholics (along with the Eastern Orthodox and some Protestant denominations) state their belief in "one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God. Born of the Father before all ages. God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God. Begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father."

45 posted on 06/27/2006 1:37:36 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you wish to go to extremes, let it be in... patience, humility, & charity." -St. Philip Neri)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Grig; Utah Girl; T. P. Pole; TChris; Reaganesque
MARY The Qu'ran, which is the Bible for the Muslims, has many passages concerning the Blessed Virgin. First of all, the Qu'ran believes in her Immaculate Conception, and also in her Virgin Birth. The third chapter of the Qu'ran places the history of Mary's family in a genealogy which goes back through Abraham, Noah, and Adam.

When one compares the Qu'ran's description of the birth of Mary with the apocryphal Gospel of the birth of Mary, one is tempted to believe that Mohammed very much depended upon the latter.

Both books describe the old age and the definite sterility of the mother of Mary. When, however, she conceives, the mother of Mary is made to say in the Qu'ran: "O Lord, I vow and I consecrate to you what is already within me. Accept it from me."

When Mary is born, the mother says: And I consecrate her with all of her posterity under thy protection, O Lord, against Satan!"

The Qu'ran passes over Joseph in the life of Mary, but the Muslim tradition knows his name and has some familiarity with him. In this tradition, Joseph is made to speak to Mary, who is a virgin. As he inquired how she conceived Jesus without a father, Mary answered:

Do you not know that God, when he created the wheat had no need of seed, and that God by his power made the trees grow without the help of rain? All that God had to do was to say, 'So be it, and it was done.'

The Qu'ran was also verses on the Annunciation, Visitation, and Nativity. Angels are pictured as accompanying the Blessed Mother and saying: "Oh, Mary, God has chosen you and purified you, and elected you above all the women of the earth." In the nineteenth chapter of the Qu'ran there are 41 verses on Jesus and Mary. There is such a strong defense of the virginity of Mary here that the Qu'ran, in the fourth book, attributed the condemnation of the Jews to their monstrous calumny against the Virgin Mary.

***

Moses 3
God created all things spiritually before they were naturally upon the earth—First man and first flesh created—Woman a help meet for man.

But they ignore that Jesus was the Only Begotten Son of Heaven Father!

46 posted on 06/27/2006 2:39:34 PM PDT by restornu (Could Harry Reid be a descendant of King Noah? Mosiah 7-29)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: wmfights
I read in the Chicago Tribune, sunday Perspective dated 6/25/06 that "American bishops voted to change the words that the faithful have said in mass for decades. Instead of saying that Jesus was "born of the Virgin Mary" Roman Catholics will now recite that he was "incarnate of the Virgin Mary".

Is this true and if so does it change your position that Mary was the "Mother of God"?

Do you understand the word "inarnate"? It means "made flesh".

By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.

47 posted on 06/27/2006 3:53:48 PM PDT by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: NYer; wagglebee
Harley, we've had these discussions before.

Yes, I don't wish to discuss the veneration of Mary (at least not now). I'm simply trying to point out that nowhere in the article does this author talk about "preaching Christ crucified" as a method of bring Muslims to salvation. You may think some will make the connection between Mary and Christ. I do not.

48 posted on 06/27/2006 5:33:38 PM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luk 24:45)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Our Lady of Zeytoun, pray for us.


49 posted on 06/27/2006 5:53:56 PM PDT by Maeve
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: NYer
As those who lose devotion to her lose belief in the divinity of Christ, so those who intensify devotion to her gradually acquire that belief.

True.

50 posted on 06/27/2006 7:18:15 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-60 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson