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To: pravknight; dixiechick2000
Oh dear, this is getting tiresome and more than a little ridiculous; to say the least.

First of all, Freemasonry is NOT a religion, a religious organization, and therefore, has ALWAYS been tolerant of people who are of different religious beliefs. Of course they deny that there is one and only only one "true religion" and HOOOOOOOOOORAY for them, for that!

If your ancestor personally met Madame Guillotine, it was because he was an aristo...NOT because he was a Catholic Bishop and the Masons had NOTHING at all to do with that; unless you want to blame ALL Masons for Guillotine's invention, since he was a Mason. He was also a Catholic, BTW.

It would really help you, if you actually knew and understood factual history, before you posted. First of all, There was a JACOBITE movement, in England, which had to do with the Revolution of 1688. most Jacobite were ROMAN CATHOLIC! Though some were indeed Masons, they had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the French Revolution! The Jacobites wanted to restore the Stuart Monarchy to the English throne. And FYI...The Jacobite Movement was added and abetted by the Vatican and Jesuits, who the last time I looked, were part of the Catholic church.

It was these Jacobite Masons, who fled to Holland, which actually began the anti-Masonic junk, because the Dutch were troubled by them and that they were meeting to thrown a spanner in the works, with the Duke of Orange, who was then sitting on the throne of England. This then led to what I'll call "uneasiness" within the realms of some of the crowned heads of Europe and the Catholic church.

Just as there are good and bad apples in every race, religion, ethnicity, and social groups, you shouldn't blame an entire group for a few bad apples. Have there been "bad" , IRREGULAR ( which means Masons in name only and even that, not legit! )"Masonic groups"? Yes, there have been and that is exactly what was the genesis of the first Papal Bull, written by Pope Clement XIX, in 1738 based on Cardinal Corisini's input. OTOH, the original Bull WAS probably written against one or two Italian Masosnic groups. It is still questionable that it was meant for all of Freemasonry.

And to prove this point, I offer you the words of Cardinal Corisini, whose letter to the Grand Duke of Tuscany said that "Freemasonry had begun in England as an amusement or decent diversion but...has degenerated in Italy, and has become a school of ungodliness." He was BTW, referring to their habits OUTSIDE of Masonry.

Yet, it was and apparently still is, for some, the fact that Freemasonry has always espoused freedom of association, tolerance, and free speech, that drove the RCC to distraction. You just can't have any of THAT, now can we. LOL

After escaping to England, from France, a French priest, Abbe Barruel was the first, in a landslide of books and pamphlets for and against the proposition that the French Revolution was started by Masons. John Robinson was another pamphleteer, who stated that this was true. Reynold's Wrap hadn't been invented yet, but both of these men were wrapped, mummy-like, in it! Diederot had been a Mason, but Marat, Danton, and Robespierre weren't and nothing any of these men did, has anything to do with Freemasonry.

No serious historian believes that Mason started and carried out the French Revolution; not a one! This is as nutty and spurious as any Stone conspiracy movies and the blasted PORTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION!

Your last sentence is false, disgusting, vile, libelous, and beneath contempt! You owe every single Mason, living and dead, and every member of their extended families, a public apology.

Gee dixie, I guess you were right...that history lesson had to be rewritten. :-)

33 posted on 07/19/2006 5:59:54 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons

"I guess you were right...that history lesson had to be rewritten. :-)"


I had a feeling it would still be fresh in your mind. ;o)
Thank you for your lesson.


115 posted on 07/20/2006 2:39:44 PM PDT by dixiechick2000 (There ought to be one day-- just one-- when there is open season on senators. ~~ Will Rogers)
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To: nopardons

You Freemasons remind me of the James Carville types during the Clinton era. Deny, Deny, Deny.

Do we not have the right to believe that the Catholic religion is the only true religion under our Constitution? After all, all religions contradict each other. If the statement, all religions are true is true, then the fact not all religions believe this disproves this because of the philosophical law of noncontradiction.

Freemasonry, by contrast believes that no religions are absolutely true, and requires everyone to believe likewise. Actions speak far louder than words. The Americans United for Separation of Church and State was founded by the Scottish Rite Freemasons, and BTW, the KKK was founded by Freemasons.

Gotta love your tolerant Fraternity.

I would suggest you research the role the Grand Orient Lodge played in the French Revolution. Stop denying the role your murderous little fraternity has played in world history.

My ancestor met the guillotine due to the Masonic ideology of the French Revolutionaries. I shouldn't waste my time with an ignorant fellow such as yourself.


160 posted on 07/20/2006 3:54:34 PM PDT by pravknight (Liberalism under the guise of magisterial teaching is still heresy)
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To: nopardons

Yet, it was and apparently still is, for some, the fact that Freemasonry has always espoused freedom of association, tolerance, and free speech, that drove the RCC to distraction. You just can't have any of THAT, now can we. LOL

Whose free speech? or free association? Certainly not those who were faithful to the Catholic Church. Masonry always have shown intolerance to Catholics wherever it has held sway. Just do a search under anticlericalism and freemasonry.

It's obvious Masonry's actions speak louder than its empty words.
http://www.trosch.org/bks/freemasonry.html
France. Freemasonry crossed the English channel in 1721; the first Continental lodge was chartered at Dunkirk. The lodges in France dallied with occultism and inspired dozens of new degrees and rites, most of which have fallen into disuse. Facing the hostility of the Church, the French lodges tended to atheism and anticlericalism from the beginning. French Freemasons honor Voltaire as one of their brothers. When the grand master of the grand orient, Philippe-Egalité, resigned his position in 1793, French Masonry suffered a serious blow. Modern historians agree that the role of Masonry in the French Revolution has usually been exaggerated. Napoleon sought to harness the lodges to his service, although whether he was a Mason is doubtful. He did appoint his brother Joseph to be grand master in 1805. From the fall of the MacMahon government in 1877 to the start of World War II, Masonic politicians controlled the French government. They passed anticlerical laws designed to restrict the Church's influence, especially in education. Marshal Pétain closed the lodges; and although they were again free after the war, they have not regained their former influence in national life.

Germany and Scandinavia. A veneer of Christianity tinged with anti-Semitism has covered most German and Scandinavian lodges, which usually refuse to initiate Jews or non-Christians. Their rituals include more allusions to Christianity than would be considered appropriate in the English, American, or grand orient lodges. The first German lodge was established in Hamburg in 1737. For a time Frederick the Great dabbled in Freemasonry, and a number of the Hohenzollern family and Prussian officers took Masonic degrees. German Freemasons fostered the Kulturkampf and helped further the dominance of the Prussian state. German Masonry has always been fragmented. At one time nine independent grand lodges claimed the loyalty of 85,000 members. These were obliterated by the Nazis, but after World War II, German lodges were reestablished by American army officers and now number about 250.

In Scandinavia the kings have been the hereditary grand masters and patrons of Masonry. As elsewhere in Europe the lodges enroll an elite who undergo lengthy indoctrination and enter the higher degrees only after strict surveillance and by invitation. The grand lodges in Sweden, Norway, and Denmark have been recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England, although the Christian and sometimes Swedenborgian elements in their rites are foreign to an Anglo-American or grand orient Mason.

Belgium. The grand orient of Belgium has long been known for deep involvement in politics and a virulent anti-Catholicism. Many other Masonic jurisdictions have severed relations with the Belgians for these and other reasons. The first Belgian lodge was opened in 1765. Belgian Masons founded Brussels University (1834) to counteract the influence of the Catholic University of Louvain. A recent schism in Belgian Freemasonry has resulted in a grand orient and a grand lodge. The latter has been recognized by most grand lodges in the U.S.


226 posted on 07/20/2006 6:24:38 PM PDT by pravknight (Liberalism under the guise of magisterial teaching is still heresy)
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