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Traditional Latin Mass - filmed 1941 Our Lady Sorrows Chicago, narrated by Bishop Sheen
You Tube ^

Posted on 08/07/2006 12:10:17 PM PDT by NYer

Naturally, the film is in black white but is an absolute treasure. Enjoy!


Our Lady of Sorrows

LINK


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; History; Prayer; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; latin; mass; sheen; tlm; tridentine
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To: NYer

Well, I'd hope they wouldn't use the really nice, antique ones. Some of these recent one that look like they were decorated with felt, elmers glue, and sequins by the Sunday school classes would do well to be buried. Although I'm not sure it would be respectful to saddle the Priest's earthly remains with some of them. OTOH, some of them deserve it.

As I say, the pink thing was horrid, just hideous... then there's the permanent deacon that assists Father, and he had a pink sash... err stole.


41 posted on 08/08/2006 10:17:23 AM PDT by ichabod1 (Clam down and try to enjoy the rest of your day.)
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To: ELS
Hmm, that picture doesn't show the high altar

Take another look at the picture. This is a 'restoration' not a 'renovation'. Big difference. That photo was taken by the company retained to 'restore' the Church. Here is a link to the basilica's web site.

OLS

42 posted on 08/08/2006 11:55:16 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer

Whether it's a restoration or renovation is irrelevant to the fact that the photo you posted doesn't show the high (main) altar of the church. The right side of the photo shows the back of the church and the left side of the photo shows a SIDE altar of the church. There is no information in that photo about the main altar. The site you linked to doesn't have any photos of the main altar, either.


43 posted on 08/08/2006 12:41:48 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: ELS

True ... but the side altar is intact and in any 'authentic' restoration, all aspects must be 'restored' to their original state. Hence, one must conclude that the main altar is probably intact. No proof; just deductive reasoning.


44 posted on 08/08/2006 1:16:46 PM PDT by NYer
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To: ichabod1

I was just listening to Bishop Sheen talk about the consecration... the "ancient and unchanging sequence of prayers" and it strikes me that they've really destroyed the consecration by eliminating all of the prayers that were always said... is it really still a consecration with the little 2 minute schpiel they give?


45 posted on 08/08/2006 3:00:08 PM PDT by ichabod1 (WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH)
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To: kosta50

"Our usual liturgy (of St. John Chrysostom) is 1600 years old. So, if I see similarities in the Tridentine Mass it must contain elements that are at least as old."

The Tridentine Mass, though named after a Council of the Catholic Reformation, has roots dating back to Pope St Gregory the Great.


46 posted on 08/08/2006 5:33:22 PM PDT by tlRCta (St. Joseph, pray for us!)
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To: tlRCta
The Tridentine Mass, though named after a Council of the Catholic Reformation, has roots dating back to Pope St Gregory the Great

Wow, that explains a lot. Besides, I imagine tat both are drawn from the older versions, yet, of St. Basil and St. James.

So, where did the Novus Ordo come from? Or is ti just made eup of various litrugical traditions?

47 posted on 08/08/2006 6:30:26 PM PDT by kosta50 (Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: NYer

WONDERFUL!


48 posted on 08/08/2006 10:32:02 PM PDT by Maeve (St. Rafqa, pray for us.)
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To: Pyro7480; All

Thanks, Pyro, but I have dial-up and the link says it will take 22 hours to download this one!! The first video takes my computer +/- 30 seconds to download two seconds of video - so only 2 seconds at a time can be watched. (frustrating and impossible) I figured that one would take about 13 1/2 hours to download.

Does anyone know where I might purchase a video or dvd of a TLM?


49 posted on 08/09/2006 6:31:16 AM PDT by nanetteclaret (Our Lady's Hat Society)
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To: nanetteclaret
Tradition: The Latin Mass with Gregorian Choir
The solemn high Mass offered by the Very Rev. Josef Bisig, then Superior General of the Fraternity, at the Church of St. Mary–St. Anthony in Kansas City, Kansas, with music by the seminary Schola and commentary by F.S.S.P. priests. Filmed with state-of-the-art camera and audio equipment under the direction of Mr. Jack Cashill. 55-minute Video $20.00 (Scroll all the way to the bottom of the page)
The Most Beautiful Thing This Side of Heaven
"The primary aim of the video is to assist priests...and it will certainly achieve this....But the appeal of the video extends far beyond its immediate purpose. There cannot be a layman who would not be inspired by it, learn from it, and have his faith and devotion to tradition deepened by it. The video was made by a professional camera crew to the highest possible technical standards. It was filmed in a parish church in Dublin, and the commentary by Kieron Wood, formerly religious correspondent for RTE, is masterly. While explaining the rubrics of the Mass in the clearest possible manner, his commentary manages not to obtrude upon the unfolding of the majesty and mystery of the traditional rite." -Michael Davies. Every video comes with a free booklet which follows the video in text. 52 min. Color Video. ITEM #30179 $34.95 (From Catholic Treasures)
The First Mass of Fr. Fryar's (what an appropriate name)
The twin DVD package of Summi et Aeterni Sacerdoti (Fr. Fryar's First Solemn Mass) comes with an entire DVD's worth of bonus material, INCLUDING the entire Mass as seen through the eyes of Fr. Fryar. This special package can be ordered for just $18.95 (plus $1.50 shipping).

The bonus material is something which has never before been available: a newly ordained priest's reflections and thoughts during his first Mass. Neither do I know of any other DVD's or VHS recordings of a polyphonic Mass setting composed specifically for a priest's first Mass.


50 posted on 08/09/2006 8:11:22 AM PDT by Carolina
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To: Carolina

Thank you so much! I really appreciate your research!


51 posted on 08/09/2006 8:25:30 AM PDT by nanetteclaret (Our Lady's Hat Society)
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To: kosta50

Sorry for the delayed reply; I have been putting in many overtime hours at work, and haven't quite felt up to many of my usual distractions (read: FR)

"Wow, that explains a lot. Besides, I imagine tat both are drawn from the older versions, yet, of St. Basil and St. James."

You are quite right in saying that the Mass of Gregory and Pius the Greats has older antecedents. After a cursory reading of the Liturgies of St Basil and St James, it looks like the Mass of Trent has a little more in common with James than it does with Basil. This is mostly a gut feeling, but parts of James, like the references to pre-Christian Patriarchal sacrifices have, seem to have more in common with the Roman Mass, which often draws out the way the Mass is the fulfillment of the pre-Christian worship--Abel, Abraham, Melchisedech. The Catholic Encyclopedia does a good job of examining the historical development, especially the early and Eastern Christian roots of the Roman Canon alone: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03255c.htm

"So, where did the Novus Ordo come from? Or is ti just made eup of various litrugical traditions?"

You have just opened a whole can of worms, that the Lord, in his infinite mercy, spared the Orthodox Church. If you search the net, you will find so much of the material about this is highly polemical. I have, in going a away to college for the first time this year, just recieved a revival, so to speak, of faith and have just started examining liturgy in terms of history, theology, etc; so, in short, I think I'm trying to say, is, with me, the jury's out on pinning down the exact genesis of the Novus Ordo.

But I do have a few observations based on experience, and my own limited reading:

As for "liturgical traditions," certainly the new Mass contains ancient items such as the Kyrie, and the Creed, etc. However, I'm not sure if the Fathers who wrote it sat down and said "Let's put this here, because it is here in the Liturgy of St. So-and-So." Frankly, I'm not sure about stuff like that.

We can't really say the new Mass has its basis in the Tridentine Mass--it is a sharp break with the Mass that had been 15 and 16 hundred years in the making. However, in '65 there was an intermediate missal which simplified and shortened many of the prayers and introduced certain practices as options which have become essentially ubiquitous. (The text here: http://www.coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/)

However, this is not to say that the new Mass is totally without reference to the Tridentine. For instance for the Penitential Rite, the priest has the option of using part of the old dialogue: "Lord, show us your mercy...And grant us your salvation" or with the Sprinkling Rite: "Cleanse me with a hyssop"/"I saw the water flowing." And the Roman Canon is the only Eucharistic prayer permissible on all occasions. This being said, items such as these are optional in the Novus Ordo, whereas in the old, were (more or less) unchangeable. Moreover, these ancient and venerable parts are rarely used: I am a cradle Catholic and never even heard of the Roman Canon until this year at school when I went to Mass offered by an older priest. Also, for a Solemn Novus Ordo, the pattern for incensation are largely vestiges of the Tridentine Mass, but you will seldom find a Solemn Mass with the Novus Ordo (again, I had never seen one until this year).

Here is a great site which has the texts of the two Masses: http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Texts/Index/4

Forgive me the length of the post, and any errors contained herein. This is really my first foray into any sort of organized examination of the two Masses, so please be patient. I'm just beginning to read Pope Benedict's "The Spirit of the Liturgy," so I figure I'll have a better idea afterwards.


52 posted on 08/13/2006 7:52:51 PM PDT by tlRCta (St. Joseph, pray for us!)
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To: tlRCta
Thank you for you informative reply and references (one of which – the intermediate Mass of 1965 – is a dead link, unfortunately).

Not so long ago, I purchased a book The Mass of the Early Christians (Mike Aquilina, Sunday Visitor Publishing), which actually contains parts of the Liturgy of St. James and others. It is a great book (just 200 pages in length, inexpensive) and I highly recommend it.

Based on the text supplied, the Great Litany starts with words resembling the Roman Mass "Peace be with you, and with your spirit, The Lord bless us all and sanctify us..."

The rest, however, is almost word by word as it is in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (In peace let us pray to the Lord, Lord have mercy,From the peace that is from on high..." including the Trisagion (Holy God, Holy mighty, Holy immortal, have mercy on us" and close similarities, almost identical, are in the Eucharistic Prayer, the Communion Prayer ("Let us bow our heads to the Lord, To you O Lord,...One is Holy, one Lord Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father, to whom be the glory to all eternity..."), all these are still to be found in the Orthodox Divine Liturgy unchanged.

So, while some parts of the Novus Ordo are to be found in the ancient Liturgy of St. James (such as "Holy, Holy, HOly, Lord Savaoth (of hosts), heaven and earth are full of Thy glory, Hosanna in the Highest. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, Hosanna in the highest.") which is also found in Orthodox Divine Liturgy preceding Holy Communion, I am not sure which other parts, save for the introductory Kyrie eleison or God have mercy (which we Orthodox repeat constantly), are from St. James.

Again, the Tridentine Mass which NYer was kinf to include, had numerous elements that were clearly recognizable as one and the same Divine (Holy) Liturgy, which is not the case with NO, although allegedly NO (by content) doe snot resemble much of the Eastern tradition internally or externally (repeated signs of the cross, signing the entire Service, kissing the hand of the priest, holding tall candles during the reading of the Gospels, three steps to the altar, priest facing ad orientem, etc.)

If you learn more about this (and undoubtedly you will), sharing your knowledge will be most appreciated. One would imagine that the Western fathers in the 1960's stated good reasons how and why the Mass was changed. I am not sure where they are to be found.

53 posted on 08/13/2006 8:46:11 PM PDT by kosta50 (Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

Hello kosta,

I think a parentheses got attached to the original link for the '65, thus creating the dead link. Here is the link to the Mass of '65; I hope it will work: http://www.coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/

I haven't read much of Aquilina, but what I have read is good. Thanks for the suggestion.

"Again, the Tridentine Mass which NYer was kinf to include, had numerous elements that were clearly recognizable as one and the same Divine (Holy) Liturgy, which is not the case with NO, although allegedly NO (by content) doe snot resemble much of the Eastern tradition internally or externally (repeated signs of the cross, signing the entire Service, kissing the hand of the priest, holding tall candles during the reading of the Gospels, three steps to the altar, priest facing ad orientem, etc.)"

It is amazing how two very different liturgies could have so many similarities; even in a Low Tridentine Mass, without all the "bells and whistles" I'm sure you would still recognize so many of the externals. I've only been to one Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St John Chrystomos and did notice the elements more prominent in the Tridentine, but not as much in the NO (crossing, incense, etc.) However, it was only an accident that I was there, due to an odd situation of chapel-sharing at school, so I wasn't able to observe with my full attention. (I have seen an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy on the internet, but the video quality was quite poor). Both the Mass of St Pius and the Litugy of St John Chrystomos are still very different, but both gorgeous, and I think I'd prefer either to an everyday NO.

"One would imagine that the Western fathers in the 1960's stated good reasons how and why the Mass was changed. I am not sure where they are to be found."

I suppose we could go to the source...Paul VI: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6missal.htm
It's an interesting little document, wherein Paul promulgated the use of the NO; he cites, among other things, the desire to correct what was seen as deviations from the "traditions of the Fathers." It is a curious little point I will have to examine further.

The post-Conciliar Popes on the liturgy has always been such a fascinating topic. I mean, how many times on FR alone have we seen rumors of the liberalization, by the Pope(s) of the use the Tridentine Mass? Paul VI spoke highly of that Missal. Benedict, as a Cardinal, said it in public on multiple occasions. JPII, of blessed memory, regularly said it in his private chapel in the Vatican.

However, later this year there is supposed to be a document coming out from BXVI about new directives for the NO. I'm not sure what it will entail but here is an interesting quote from his "Spirit of the Liturgy" (written as a Cardinal) about his idea of papal stewardship of the Mass: "The pope's authority is bound to the Tradition of faith, and that also applies to the liturgy...Even the pope can only be a humble servant of its lawful development and abiding integrity and identity." (166)

Here's an interesting article about the Pope and the liturgy, from Ignatius Press, his English-language publisher: http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/clark_benedictliturgy_apr05.asp

And, if you are so inclined, Fr Jim Tucker, keeper of the "Dappled Things" blog has a great compilation of links of items relating to the Tridentine Mass; he also has a great photo collection of all things liturgical: http://donjim.blogspot.com/2006/08/traditional-liturgy-videos-and.html


54 posted on 08/16/2006 8:20:59 AM PDT by tlRCta (St. Joseph, pray for us!)
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To: tlRCta
Thank you, tlRCta, for the li nks. I will comment more when I read them. I did not want to give the impresison that there was a lot of recogizabable similarity between the Estern Orthodox and NO services, bt there are many recognizable elements between the Tridentine and EO servcies.

I am particularly interested in reading your link on Pope Paul VI because I would imagine most non-Catholics do not know much about what transpired at the Vatican II. All we can see are the effects of it, not whether they are the intended changes or the unintended ones.

Today most of the Catholics do not even remember the "old" Mass, as those who were old enough to remember the Mass vaguely even as children are now over 50. Of course, the Tridentine Mass was not the Mass served in Florence, two hundred years prior, or the Mass served in the first millennium, so even the Tridentine Mass was something "new" at one time before it became a tradition.

What puzzles me personally is why is there a need to change anything? The Divine Liturgies of SS James, Basil and Chrysostom are only variations of each other, not new, especially not radically new ways of serving a Mass. The only thing that essentially changed is the length (that's important because in Orthodox Churches outside of America there are no pews and we stand throughout the service, even in some "real" :) Orthodox churches in America).

The Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, which is shorter than that of St. James, is about 4 hours long! So one can see the need to shorten the service without sacrificing essential elements, which is what the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is, which lasts about an hour and a half to two hours, depending on such things as commemorations (panikhidas), chrismations, baptisms, etc.

But my point is: why change? The EO system shows that there is no need to change.

55 posted on 08/16/2006 9:09:22 AM PDT by kosta50 (Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

"I did not want to give the impresison that there was a lot of recogizabable similarity between the Estern Orthodox and NO services, bt there are many recognizable elements between the Tridentine and EO servcies."

This goes without saying. In the two Divine Liturgies I've seen (one EO, one EC) I never expected the priest to be wearing a fiddleback and biretta.

"I am particularly interested in reading your link on Pope Paul VI because I would imagine most non-Catholics do not know much about what transpired at the Vatican II. All we can see are the effects of it, not whether they are the intended changes or the unintended ones."

The Council met over the course of a couple of years, with a number of sessions, where the bishops produced 16 major documents: now we have aging, bizarre, upper-middle class women prancing around the altars in tutus; priests preaching all sorts of drivel from the pulpits; and nuns running about in polyester pants-suits colored in hues not found on God's green Earth. After all that work by the bishops, this is the best we came up with? Let alone non-Catholics, I think most Catholics don't even know what it was about. I have to do far more reading, delving into it, to see what it's all about.

"Of course, the Tridentine Mass was not the Mass served in Florence, two hundred years prior, or the Mass served in the first millennium, so even the Tridentine Mass was something "new" at one time before it became a tradition."

There was a book written 2 years ago "The Organic Development of the Liturgy" by one Dom Alcuin Reid, OSB; it's on my wish-list, as it tracks the Roman Mass from its origins up to the eve of V2. It tracks, as you mention, the formation and the rise to prominence of the Roman Mass--here's an interesting little tidbit on the latter: even before Trent the Mass across Europe became a lot more standardized, because the Franciscans would bring the Roman Mass with them as they crossed Western Europe and it was often adopted by local churches. This of course is only a partial reason for the near universal use of the Roman Mass in the Latin Church.

"But my point is: why change?"

Beats me. There were many things that needed reform prior to V2; there are many things now needing reform. The desire of the Fathers to speak with new vigor to the modern world was all well and good; however, it was not necessary, strictly speaking to rewrite, and remove, the greatest treasure of the Church, the centuries old Mass, from plain view. Perhaps scholars (though not bad in and of themselves), and not saints were in charge of liturgical reform. I think that Western Christians ought to pay much more attention to the way the Orthodox jealously defend the tradition of their Liturgies.

Hopefully, Benedict will facilitate the more liberal use of the Tridentine Mass, and the reform of the NO into a line more in keeping with the historical voice of Latin Christianity.


56 posted on 08/16/2006 2:26:09 PM PDT by tlRCta (St. Joseph, pray for us!)
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To: tlRCta
I never expected the priest to be wearing a fiddleback and biretta

I have to admit, I had to look up the words. I have never heard of an Orthodox priest wearing a biretta, and fiddleback just doesn't yield anything religious in my search. Maybe you can enlighten me.

Whatever changes are needed, I hope the Catholics do what the Orthodox do when faced with such dilemma: look back! We always revert to patristic teahcings and traditions. Pope Benedict XVI seems to be one such Christian who seeks solutions in patristic traditions.

My personal impression is that somehow the Vatican II promoted changes that at least externally approached the Protestants, perhaps to make Catholicism appear more agreeable to them.

57 posted on 08/16/2006 2:41:52 PM PDT by kosta50 (Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: tlRCta
I never expected the priest to be wearing a fiddleback and biretta

I have to admit, I had to look up the words. I have never heard of an Orthodox priest wearing a biretta, and fiddleback just doesn't yield anything religious in my search. Maybe you can enlighten me.

Whatever changes are needed, I hope the Catholics do what the Orthodox do when faced with such dilemma: look back! We always revert to patristic teahcings and traditions. Pope Benedict XVI seems to be one such Christian who seeks solutions in patristic traditions.

My personal impression is that somehow the Vatican II promoted changes that at least externally approached the Protestants, perhaps to make Catholicism appear more agreeable to them.

58 posted on 08/16/2006 2:41:56 PM PDT by kosta50 (Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

"I have to admit, I had to look up the words. I have never heard of an Orthodox priest wearing a biretta, and fiddleback just doesn't yield anything religious in my search. Maybe you can enlighten me."

Perhaps I was unclear, I should have written "I knew I would never see an EO priest wear a biretta or fiddleback."

The fiddleback is a nickname for the Roman Chasuble, one of the three types of Chasubles worn by Latin priests. Here is a nice spread of pictures, courtesy of Fr Tucker of Dappled Things: http://dappledphotos.blogspot.com/2005/03/fiddleback-chasuble-sightings.html

"Whatever changes are needed, I hope the Catholics do what the Orthodox do when faced with such dilemma: look back! We always revert to patristic teahcings and traditions. Pope Benedict XVI seems to be one such Christian who seeks solutions in patristic traditions."

In his VII declaration on the Eastern Catholic Churches (I know it's a very touchy subject with the Orthodox, but I'll leave it at that) Paul VI gave exactly that advice to them: Go back, rediscover the beauty of your traditions! It's a wonder the West wasn't given that same advice.

"My personal impression is that somehow the Vatican II promoted changes that at least externally approached the Protestants, perhaps to make Catholicism appear more agreeable to them."

Yes, I have to say that I agree with that. You probably missed it, but sometime last week or the week before that, a FReeper posted a meta-analysis, where a liturgically right wing priest criticized the commentary of a liturgically horrible priest who was criticizing a beautifully done Solemn Novus Ordo Mass on EWTN. In this one Mass they broke out the incense and bells and Latin, etc.; the left wing priest criticized it, saying it would alienate our Protestant brethren.


59 posted on 08/16/2006 2:56:56 PM PDT by tlRCta (St. Joseph, pray for us!)
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To: tlRCta
Oh, now I see what you meant. Sorry, I didn't read it correctly the first time. Thanks for the informative link. There are other pictures of things I can look up and learn. Very much obliged.

Orthodox clergy wear something similar to a Cahsuble. But when they are not serving they wear plain black cassoks. Here is an exaple of a Russian priest.

Or this one (showing a Greek Orthodox bishop)

[You can tell it's a bishop because he is wearing Panagia (All Holy) medallion instead of a simple cross]

When they serve, they must be vested. There is a small vestment which comes only around their neck and projects below their waist (when they hear confessions or bless the food, etc.). Otherwise, they are fully vested.

Here you can see Patriarch Alexei II of Moscow and All Russia wearing a simple but impressive vetsments duirng a Pontifical Divine Liturgy (the two sets of candles represent the Holy Trinity intertwined into one God, and the other one the two natures of our Lord Jesus Christ seamlessly united but unconfused in one Person)

Here is a picture of a Russian priest hearing a confession. Our confesisonals are not closed. They are located in the left wing of the Church, away from the public.

The next picture shows Patriarch Alexei II again, the first in honor of the Russian Church, during a Divine Liturgy in a more ornate vestment. Behind him, holding a candle, is a deacon wearing an ornate vestment as well. The Patriarch is also holding the pastoral staff.

Here is an example of a westernized Orthodox Priest (Ukrainian) who is clean shaven and in a church with pews! Most Greek Orthodox churches in America also have pews, which is an aberration in Orthodoxy, and many of their clery are clean shaven. But the picture illustrates what I call "small vestments" (I am not sure what's the official name), worn over his neck.

For a full text of the Liturgy of St. James

Do you recognize the any Latin Mass in it?

Sorry for the long post. I hope it gave you some idea of what our priests wear. I wanted to ask you though about colors of priestly vestments. They seem to change at specific times of the year. In the Orthodox Church the purple is during the Great and Holy Lent and the white is for the 40 days after Resurrection (until Pentecost).

60 posted on 08/16/2006 8:26:27 PM PDT by kosta50 (Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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