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The worst of times: Evangelicalism in critical condition
Pyromaniac ^ | 16 July 2005 | Phil Johnson

Posted on 08/08/2006 1:06:47 PM PDT by Gamecock

he worst of times: Evangelicalism in critical condition

With the wild popularity of so many evangelical fads like "Forty Days of Purpose"; the lucrative success of the Christian publishing and contemporary Christian music industries; the growing influence of the "emerging church" phenomenon; and a recent cover story by Time magazine featuring "The 25 Most Influential Evangelicals in America," lots of evangelicals might be tempted to think these are the best of times for their movement.

My own assessment would be that evangelicalism's spiritual condition at the beginning of the twenty-first century is reminiscent of the medieval church just prior to the Protestant Reformation.

No, I take it back. Things are much worse among evangelicals today than they were in the Catholic Church in those days. Modern and postmodern evangelicalism is just like medieval Catholicism was—only more superficial.

Think about it: Luther was provoked by Tetzel, the charlatan fund-raiser who went through Europe promising people indulgences in return for money so that the Pope could build St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican. We've got at least a dozen Tetzels appearing daily on TBN, promising people material prosperity in exchange for money. Jan Crouch uses that money to make the sets of the TBN studios more garish and more gaudy than any room in the Vatican, and she has added so many tawdry pink hair extensions to her hairdo that it now rivals the size of the dome on St. Peter's.

Tetzel peddled his indulgences with trite songs and sayings ("As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs"). Modern evangelicals are experts in writing doggerel and banal platitudes and have even made silly, superficial songs the centerpieces of all their liturgy.

The medieval church was overrun with superstition. We've got people reciting the prayer of Jabez every day who are convinced it's a magic formula that will bring them wealth and good luck.

The Medieval church produced Niccolò Machiavelli, the cynical and unscrupulous political theorist who believed the end always justifies the means. We've got a host of evangelical celebrities with shady reputations, from Gary Ezzo to Benny Hinn. We've also got a thousand church-growth "experts" who insist pragmatism is the only workable philosophy for the church today, and that we will never "reach" this generation until we first study which way the winds of popular culture are blowing and follow along.

Evangelicalism as a movement has bought that lie. That's why we have so many Fad-Driven® Churches and so few where Christ is honored and His Word obeyed. That's why the gospel is not only in eclipse but actually under attack on several fronts within evangelicalism.

We don't need more hype and activity and mass movements. We need the pure light of God's Word—"the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises" (2 Peter 1:19).

The alternative is a postmodern darkness that is shaping up to be worse than the murkiest spiritual gloom of the Dark Ages. We could sure use a new generation of Reformers.




TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: christian; christianity; church; evangelical; evangelicalism; evangelicals; grpl; modernism; problems; reformed; tbn
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1 posted on 08/08/2006 1:06:48 PM PDT by Gamecock
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...
GRPL PING

I think this is an overly optimistic piece.

2 posted on 08/08/2006 1:09:36 PM PDT by Gamecock ("Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable." Robert Farrar Capon)
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To: Gamecock

I grew up in the Assemblies of God. That denomination has lost its way and become mired in legalism masquerading as "holiness."

I left the AG when I realized that none of the pastors whose authority I'd been under ever taught doctrine, and as a result, had no solid underlying belief. It was all experiental, and we all know that the heart is wicked above all things.


3 posted on 08/08/2006 1:20:09 PM PDT by Terabitten (The only time you can have too much ammunition is when you're swimming.)
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: Gamecock

Well, lets see what books will be offered.

First you have THE FAD DRIVEN CHURCH book.
Then the FAD DRIVEN CHURCH for BGINNERS.
Then the FAD DRIVEN CHURCH for NEWLYWEDS.
Then the FAD DRIDVEN CHURCH for TEENS.
Then the FAD DRIVEN CHURCH UPDATED.
Then the FAD DRIVEN CHURCH for YOUR LIFE.
Then the FAD DRIVEN CHURCH CALENDER.
Then the FAD DRIVEN CHURCH PRIMER.
Then the FAD DRIVEN CHURCH DEVOTIONAL.
Then THE FAD DRIVEN CHURCH BIBLE. (KJV with excerpts from the FAD DRIVEN CHURCH.

After you have milked the FAD DRIVEN CHURCH for all you can take it is time to find a new schtick.

The FEEL GOOD BOOK book!
Then the FEEL GOOD BOOK FOR BEGINNERS....

And so Ad Ifidem.


5 posted on 08/08/2006 3:00:24 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Democrats have never found a fight they couldn't run from...Ann Coulter)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Ah, sweet marketing... [/sarc]


6 posted on 08/08/2006 3:08:13 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.)
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To: Gamecock

There is a widespread notion among many evangelicals today that they can hasten the end of days by creating their vision of those times. This would mean that God is on their timetable, which of course to proclaim God is subject to their whims.

I believe Jesus knew exactly what he meant when he said a man cannot serve two masters. If evangelicals make ready the way for an antichrist, that is who they serve, not the one that may follow if it is the time God alone knows.

I find it interesting so many evangelical leaders today state emphatically the antichrist spoken of in Revelations will be from a political background with great knowledge of the Bible. Under present circumstances I am more inclined to believe an antichrist will be one that rises from a religious background and moves deftly within political circles. There are numerous such evangelical leaders now plying our political leaders with political instructions they are to follow.

Even if they succeed in raising an antichrist to a position of great power, There is no assurance they will have initiated the end times. They will have just given another of the likes of Hitler an opportunity to bring havoc and destruction on as many people as possible. The evangelicals may well be the army of the next powerful antichrist.

My trust is in the teachings of Jesus, and my faith is in God.


7 posted on 08/08/2006 4:03:09 PM PDT by backtothestreets
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To: Gamecock
GC, your tagline, which is great, might give you an appreciation for another incisive quote by Capon, which might be relevant here:

"We are in a war between dullness and astonishment…The most critical issue facing Christians is not abortion, pornography, the disintegration of the family, moral absolutes, MTV, drugs, racism, sexuality, or school prayer. The critical issue today is dullness. We have lost our astonishment. The Good News is no longer good news, it is okay news. Christianity is no longer life changing, it is life enhancing. Jesus doesn’t change people into wild-eyed radicals anymore; He changes them into “nice people.” -Robert Farrar Capon, The Astonished Heart

8 posted on 08/08/2006 4:18:55 PM PDT by AlbionGirl
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
The MEGA-church bashing FAD has been over for six months.

"Jim, it's dead. Let's beam up!"

9 posted on 08/08/2006 4:56:58 PM PDT by BikerGold (Blogs Are Destroying Christian/Conservatives)
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To: AlbionGirl
The most critical issue facing Christians is not abortion,...etc...The critical issue today is dullness.
Easy for him to say - he's already been born. Lukewarm is bad, but I'm not sure that it's somehow more critically bad than any of the other things he listed.

Cordially,

10 posted on 08/08/2006 6:14:47 PM PDT by Diamond
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To: Diamond
True.

But it's the dullness, as he portrays it, that leads a girl to take her child's life. And, contrary to popular thought, I don't think girls who have abortions are torn about what they've done to the degree that is warranted or portrayed. The little tykes were never alive to them in the way that all the other people they know are. They move on quite easily because they didn't even have the courage to plunge the dagger themselves into the tiny hearts of their little babies, they didn't even have the guts to look their victim in the eyes, they hired a hit man instead.

Cordially, too.

11 posted on 08/08/2006 6:30:12 PM PDT by AlbionGirl
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To: Gamecock

Interesting viewpoints.


12 posted on 08/08/2006 6:34:53 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Gamecock; xzins; blue-duncan
You know your mainline Presbyterian churches aren't doing too well these days either. I suppose I could paint all Presbyterians with the same broad brush that Johnson is painting the Evangelicals.

The fact is that there are good evangelical churches and bad evangelical churches. As with the Presbyterian and Episcopalian Churches, the ones that are getting all the attention are the bad ones.

Seems to me that Evangelical Church bashing has become as big a fad to some Christians as the Purpose Driven programs have become to others.

13 posted on 08/08/2006 6:50:12 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
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To: P-Marlowe; Gamecock
I suppose I could paint all Presbyterians with the same broad brush that Johnson is painting the Evangelicals.

No need to speculate on that anymore. They're all on their way out. It won't be long before Presbyterian becomes a Synonym for Shaker.

14 posted on 08/08/2006 7:01:27 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Supporting the troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: P-Marlowe; Gamecock; xzins; blue-duncan; Terabitten

Exactly PM, Johnson lumps all Evangelicals into the same offering basket. It's just not that simple.

Terabitten's remarks above about the AOG are dramatically different from my experience with that denomination in the last 10 years. But, the AOG varies dramtically from congregation to congregation.

All that said, Johnson loses some credibility points by trying to write a serious article and then posting that photoshopped picture of Jan Crouch.

How Reuter-ish of him...


15 posted on 08/08/2006 7:03:45 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: Corin Stormhands; Gamecock; xzins; blue-duncan
Johnson loses some credibility points by trying to write a serious article and then posting that photoshopped picture of Jan Crouch.

I had just thought that was Gamie's doing. I didn't think it was part of the original article. But that comes from Philip Johnson's blog! That is pretty tacky and I agree it says more about Philip Johnson than it does about Jan Crouch.

16 posted on 08/08/2006 7:10:13 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
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To: P-Marlowe; Corin Stormhands; Gamecock; Alex Murphy

I think that picture was created on FR (at least posted) on a satirical article posted a few weeks back. I think Alex posted the article...."TBN run by Atheists"


17 posted on 08/08/2006 7:18:55 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Supporting the troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; Gamecock; Alex Murphy

I don't know where it came from, but if the point was to show Jan Crouch with an absurd hairstyle, let's face it, there's no need for photoshop.

I just found it odd because it really doesn't fit with the serious tone of the rest of his article. Unless he thinks it's real.


18 posted on 08/08/2006 7:22:31 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: P-Marlowe; Gamecock

Frankly Marlowe, I don't think you've shown enough outrage yet...

http://phillipjohnson.blogspot.com/2005/09/thursday-contribution-to-weeks-theme.html

19 posted on 08/08/2006 7:26:43 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: Corin Stormhands; Gamecock; P-Marlowe

I think the article joked about her big hair becoming bigger hair.

I (and maybe others) commented on thread about that being a neat thing to see.

Someone (gamecock?) posted that picture as a joke to go along with the comment.

It was all for fun. I don't know if they already had it or if it was photo-shopped out of Beirut. :>)


20 posted on 08/08/2006 7:30:19 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Supporting the troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; Alex Murphy; P-Marlowe; Gamecock

All that being said, after looking at what Alex posted and a little around Johnson's blog, maybe the pic of Jan isn't that out of place in context to the stuff he usually writes/posts.

I just didn't think it fit the tone of this piece. But I've already drug this out far too long.


21 posted on 08/08/2006 7:32:40 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: Corin Stormhands

This article is a slam on evangelicals.

The real problem with evangelicals, as near as I can tell, is exciting worship, stirring music, folks finding the Lord, and big churches.

These guys might as well bash them, because it's obvious that someone's going to bash them.


22 posted on 08/08/2006 7:36:21 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Supporting the troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: Gamecock; xzins; Corin Stormhands
No, I take it back. Things are much worse among evangelicals today than they were in the Catholic Church in those days. Modern and postmodern evangelicalism is just like medieval Catholicism was—only more superficial.

FWIW you don't see modern superficial evangelicals roasting heretics on an open fire.

23 posted on 08/08/2006 7:41:03 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
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To: P-Marlowe; Gamecock; xzins; blue-duncan
The fact is that there are good evangelical churches and bad evangelical churches. As with the Presbyterian and Episcopalian Churches, the ones that are getting all the attention are the bad ones.

Couldn't agree more. Rewind to this past Christmas. As I recall, 99.999999999% of churches held service on Christmas day. Four churches (maybe 5) decided not to. So, which story got headlines, sermons and about 25 FR threads? Right. "Evangelicals are anti-Christmas!!"

24 posted on 08/08/2006 7:44:54 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: P-Marlowe
Heretics roasting on an open fire
Jesuit nipping off their nose
25 posted on 08/08/2006 7:48:23 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Supporting the troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: backtothestreets
If evangelicals make ready the way for an antichrist

I've seen SOME evangelicals do some really, really stupid things.

But I have never, ever seen that.

Got a cite?

26 posted on 08/08/2006 7:50:33 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: Larry Lucido
Our church, which normally has 4 services on Sunday, only had one service on Christmas day. Most of the Churches that did not have service on Christmas day, had services on Christmas eve night (which from a biblical standpoint is actually Sunday and was therefore Christmas Day).

FWIW, the Puritans fined anyone they caught celebrating Christmas. I guess Massachusetts hasn't changed that much in 500 years. :-)

27 posted on 08/08/2006 7:51:28 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
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To: P-Marlowe

Apparently, Spurgeon wasn't too keen on it either. http://www.founders.org/blog/2005/12/spurgeon-on-christmas.html

But at least he didn't advocate fining celebrants (that I know of). :-)


28 posted on 08/08/2006 8:04:18 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: Larry Lucido
Apparently, Spurgeon wasn't too keen on it either.

Spurgeon was a Baptist. They hate everything.

They even hate Cigars. :-)

29 posted on 08/08/2006 8:08:28 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
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To: Gamecock

It's interesting to see the reaction to this. Johnson, who's on staff at a Baptist megachurch, is a Presbyterian who hates big churches.


30 posted on 08/08/2006 8:40:29 PM PDT by A.J.Armitage (http://calvinist-libertarians.blogspot.com/)
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To: Gamecock

Excellent.


31 posted on 08/08/2006 9:35:28 PM PDT by ladyinred
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To: AlbionGirl

Amen, Sister!

We are a dull and legalistic American church. Is it any wonder that the world looks to drugs and sex as an alternative? If the Church isn't providing the sweet incense of new life all that is left is escapism from this dying world.

Like so many Willy Lomans we can't understand why Biff is lost. We peddle our fire insurance with clownish advertising icons unable to compete with cute Gekkos. Never has so much truth been expressed in a cute little quip. "People trust advertising icons." So we keep trying.

When we begin expressing the joy of the liberty of new life we can expect the world to understand the awe of new life.


32 posted on 08/08/2006 9:54:45 PM PDT by Blois
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To: Gamecock
A reminder to the weary:

Jesus said, "I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

33 posted on 08/08/2006 10:26:27 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: xzins
This article is a slam on evangelicals.

The real problem with evangelicals, as near as I can tell, is exciting worship, stirring music, folks finding the Lord, and big churches.

These guys might as well bash them, because it's obvious that someone's going to bash them.

On the other hand, if the shoe fits, maybe they should wear it. Not all Evangelicals ae bad, nor are they all good. In trying to answer the perceived swipe at all Evangelicals, you make the equally egregious mistake of dismissing it entirely as not applying to any Evangelicals at all.

34 posted on 08/09/2006 1:34:34 AM PDT by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's Predestination, not the cause of it....)
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To: backtothestreets; topcat54; Alex Murphy

***If evangelicals make ready the way for an antichrist, that is who they serve, not the one that may follow if it is the time God alone knows.***

That is a fascinating observation. Thanks for sharing. I am pinging some who are discussing such on another thread for their input.


35 posted on 08/09/2006 1:51:49 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable." Robert Farrar Capon)
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To: P-Marlowe

***You know your mainline Presbyterian churches aren't doing too well these days either.***

It is Presbyterian in name only. There are ample threads around here that are pointing out the problems with that church, and you will find my thoughts on those threads as well.

The bottom line here is are you serving a particular denomination and willing to defend it at all costs, or is your worldview based on Scripture? Can you stand back and say my church is doing x, y, or z wrong?


36 posted on 08/09/2006 2:50:54 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable." Robert Farrar Capon)
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To: Corin Stormhands

***All that said, Johnson loses some credibility points by trying to write a serious article and then posting that photoshopped picture of Jan Crouch.***

Is that who that is? I thought it was Tammy Fay Baker.


37 posted on 08/09/2006 2:52:07 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable." Robert Farrar Capon)
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To: P-Marlowe
Modern evangelicals aren't capable of recognizing true heresy. Most evangelicals on this board think heresy is not agreeing with the trend de jour.
38 posted on 08/09/2006 2:53:59 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable." Robert Farrar Capon)
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To: Blois

Amen.


39 posted on 08/09/2006 2:56:12 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable." Robert Farrar Capon)
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To: AlbionGirl; Diamond; Gamecock
But it's the dullness, as he portrays it, that leads a girl to take her child's life. And, contrary to popular thought, I don't think girls who have abortions are torn about what they've done to the degree that is warranted or portrayed.

Dear AlbionGirl, you make some interesting comments on the quotation you posted up in #8. It seems to me the man is speaking to Christians when he says, "The most critical issue facing Christians...."

I interpreted the quotation to be saying that while issues of the day - Christian causes, if you will, for that is how he seems to refer to them - are important, what matters most is knowledge of the Holy One, and this means awe. As the man says,

We have lost our astonishment. The Good News is no longer good news, it is okay news. Christianity is no longer life changing, it is life enhancing.

So to speak as you do about women who have had abortions - are you speaking of those who are dead in their sins while doing so, or of those who are born-again and do so (and is that possible)? - saying, "I don't think girls who have abortions are torn about what they've done to the degree that is warranted or portrayed," perhaps you are unintentionally fulfilling the very thing you are trying to speak against.

For this poster testifies to you that at the age of 19 I chose to abort my first child. At the time I was separated from Christ, dead to God, ignorant and completely sold to sin. At the age of 29 I was simultaneously made aware that the abortion I chose was murder and that Jesus Christ died for my sin and rose again, and that by repentance (oh, turning away!) and believing in His Name (the turning to Him Alone who could save!) I too would be given Life from the dead. The whole of Wisdom, the Truth, the Life of God was then granted to me and I was sealed with the Holy Spirit. How sweet His Word became to me, how precious my communion with God and with the saints in this unity of Christ! How I was set free!

Yet your words speak to some other way, some other form of repayment for post-abortive women. What would constitute, in your opinion, "a warranted degree of being torn about what they've done"? Should they who are now in Christ never rejoice in Him?

A quotation from another man on another FR thread seems warranted in closing; I think it speaks more closely to your original quotation than your follow-up remarks, for this is the awe:

Give Jesus Christ his full glory—not half of it. Give him the glory, both as the one who is perfect righteousness for us—which we have by faith alone—and the one who, on the basis of justification, works progressive righteousness in us. Don’t rob him of the glory of his role as your righteousness. He is your righteousness. And because he is your righteousness, he can, and will in time, make you righteous. Look to Christ alone, trust in Christ alone—not your righteousness—for your right standing in God’s court and your acceptance with him. Amen.

The one who is forgiven much loves much, said the Master. This is the awe: His great mercy toward us while we were yet sinners, and His great power over sin and death, and this too-good-to-be-true-yet-true love and forgiveness is free to all who will receive it, and when truly received instills, inspires, and overflows with great awe!

I had the awesome pleasure of sharing this same great news with another dead sinner yesterday, and I saw the message received for the good news it was - awe for mercy! awe for the message and that He would use this messenger! awe every time it is received among men! If even the angels rejoice, why not we?

But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared [held in AWE].
Psalm 130:4

Because of what He has done for me, for me personally, this wretched vile murderous creature, because of Who He Is and Who He Sent, I live in awe every day of my life in Christ. Oh! this is freedom and this is life from the dead!

So I took up your comment, "They move on quite easily," to explain to you why I am dancing so effortlessly - It is Christ in me, the hope of Glory.

And I pray some other post-abortive man or woman will see this my testimony and know the God of my salvation as I know Him. Only in Thee, dear sweet Savior Jesus!

40 posted on 08/09/2006 3:22:24 AM PDT by .30Carbine ("Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable." Robert Farrar Capon)
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To: Blois
When we begin expressing the joy of the liberty of new life we can expect the world to understand the awe of new life.

I have found that this is so, and the whole of it, from alpha to omega, is of Him, and through Him, and to Him, the Lamb of God: May His praise ever be in our hearts and upon our lips, the praises of His people.

But you are a chosen generation,
a royal priesthood,
a holy nation,
His own special people,
that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you
out of darkness into His marvelous light
1 Peter 2:9

It is Good News indeed!
41 posted on 08/09/2006 3:38:56 AM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: Corin Stormhands
But, the AOG varies dramtically from congregation to congregation.

That was another of my issues with the AoG - there was no doctrinal consistency from one body to the next.

I grew up in the AG - third generation on my mother's side. My deceased brother was an ordained AG pastor. I gave up the AG when I realized that, as a denomination, they didn't know what they believed. The best I could come up with as a statement of faith was "Don't drink, don't smoke, don't cuss, and don't tolerate those who do."

42 posted on 08/09/2006 3:55:46 AM PDT by Terabitten (The only time you can have too much ammunition is when you're swimming.)
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To: xzins
folks finding the Lord

He ain't hiding.

43 posted on 08/09/2006 3:57:08 AM PDT by Terabitten (The only time you can have too much ammunition is when you're swimming.)
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To: Terabitten
That was another of my issues with the AoG - there was no doctrinal consistency from one body to the next.

From the AG website: These are nonnegotiable tenets of faith that all Assemblies of God churches adhere to. This list is derived from the official Statement of Fundamental Truths.

Certainly there are congregations who don't live up to that, just as there are errant congregations in just about every denomination.

But I believe you err in painting the entire denomination with a broad brush, much the way the author of this article errs in his interpretation of evangelicalism.

Your mileage may vary.

44 posted on 08/09/2006 4:03:43 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: Terabitten
He ain't hiding

Mt 13:44 - "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

45 posted on 08/09/2006 4:05:27 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Supporting the troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: nobdysfool

I don't think it's equally as egregious. I didn't bring the accusations. I was commenting on them.


46 posted on 08/09/2006 4:06:39 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Supporting the troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins

:) Good one.


Matt 5:14 - "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden."


47 posted on 08/09/2006 4:31:17 AM PDT by Terabitten (The only time you can have too much ammunition is when you're swimming.)
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To: Terabitten

"Don't drink, don't smoke, don't cuss, and don't tolerate those who do."

What about the most important part: "don't go with girls who do." ;-)


48 posted on 08/09/2006 5:05:35 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable." Robert Farrar Capon)
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To: Gamecock
What about the most important part: "don't go with girls who do." ;-)

Heh...yeah, I forgot that part.

The thing that really chaps me about that mentality is the idea that I am somehow important enough to tell God how, and in what order, He must fix other people's lives. There were serious debates in several AG churches I attended as to whether one could be a Christian if they used alcohol or tobacco.

In my own case, God first chose to deal with the murderous rage I held in my heart. He hasn't gotten around to the cussing part yet - but which is more important? Removing the anger that frequently drove me to violence, or having me stop cussing? Clearly, God chose the former, while I believe many in that particular denomination would choose the latter.

49 posted on 08/09/2006 5:54:39 AM PDT by Terabitten (The only time you can have too much ammunition is when you're swimming.)
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To: Corin Stormhands

The AG's 16 Fundamental Truths are, for the most part, basic Christian doctrine that could apply to any denomination.


50 posted on 08/09/2006 6:00:28 AM PDT by Terabitten (The only time you can have too much ammunition is when you're swimming.)
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