Believing the Unbelievable (the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist)

Catholic Exchange ^ | August 12, 2006 | Fr. Jerome Magat

[AlaninSA]

No, I am most certainly not referring to Protestants and Evangelicals as "cults."

I am, however, referring to extremely odd groups founded by men during the late 19th and early 20th centuries...who also developed their own "versions" of the Bible.

[AlaninSA]

I'll use the NIV, as it's the first to pop up on the websites you mentioned (which are very nice, by the way).

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Matthew 26:26-28 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the[a] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

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Mark 14:22-24 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)


22While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body."

23Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it.

24"This is my blood of the[a] covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them.

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Luke 22:19-20 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)


19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you

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John 6:47-66 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[a] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

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1 Corinthians 10:16 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

[PetroniusMaximus]

Friends, forgive me, but I'm gonna have to bow out of the thread at this point. For those to whom I haven't yet responded - forgive me. I am moving to a new house tomorrow and am busy with last minute packing. I have, as always, enjoyed the exchange and look forward to our further correspondence regarding matters of faith.

[Salvation]

Christ with the Chalice
by Juan de Juanes (ca. 1523-1579)
Wood, 101 x 63 cm
Museum of Fine Arts, Budapest

[Pyro7480]

Good luck with the move!

[lastchance]

Hope all goes well with your move. I know things will be rather discombulated for awhile Best wishes and God bless.

[Salvation]

Thanks, baa!

[Salvation]

Your points are all well-founded. God bless you.

[Salvation]

EUCHARIST

Mt 26:26-27; Mk 14:22,24; Lk 22:19-20; 1 Cor 11:24-25 ... this is my body ... this is my blood.
1 Cor 11:26-30 ... sinning against the body and blood.
Jn 6:32-58 ... long discourse on Eucharist.
Gen 14:18; Ps 110:4; Heb 7:1-17 ... Melchizedek.
Acts 2:42 ... breaking of bread.
Ps 14:4; Ps 53:4; Is 9:18-20; Is 49:26; Micah 3:2-3; Rev 17:6,16 ... symbolic interpretation of Jn 6 inappropriate.
Ex 12:8,46 ... paschal lamb has to be eaten.
Jn 1:29; 1 Cor 5:7 ... Jesus is lamb of God, paschal lamb.
Jn 4:31-34; Mt 16:5-12 ... Jesus speaks symbolically of food.

[Claud]

"Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep." Now, you would never argue, base on the above passage, that Jesus has hinges or a latch - because it is not the physical reality which Jesus addresses, but the spiritual.

We have been down this road before I think, but there is an very profound difference in the Greek original here. In John 6, Christ says "my flesh is true food"...that "true" there is a "true" of substance = "alethes". In the other places, "true vine", etc. the word is "alethinos", which means not substantively but of similarity. If I have time at lunch I will post the Greek.

[Claud]

In the Greek, Christ never said anything like "I am a true door", or "I am a true light", using the Greek alethos meaning "real, true, genuine". The closest you come is the saying "I am the true vine"--but that "true" is--significantly--not alethos meaning "real, true" in the substantive sense but rather "alethinos" which is more like "genuine". Let me quote Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT words:

alethes...actual, "true to fact," is used...(b) of things, "true," conforming to reality,

alethinos akin to alethes, denotes "true" in the sense of "real, ideal, genuine;"

Note: "Alethinos is related to alethes as form to contents or substances; alethes denotes the reality of the thing, alethinos defines the relation of the conception to the thing to which it corresponds = genuine" (Cremer). [emphasis mine]

In John 6:55, Christ says "My flesh is true food and my blood is true drink" using the Greek alethos; thus true in the sense of substance or reality. Nowhere else in the NT does any metaphor use this "alethos" word except in the bread of life discourse of John 6.

Biblically speaking then (and especially when you consider the whole force of the discourse and how long & insistently John 6 develops the theme--which is not paralleled in any of the other metaphors) we can see that the Christ-bread metaphor is placed on a different, much more "real" plane than any of the others.

[trisham]

Amen, amen, I say to you,

whoever believes has eternal life.

I am the bread of life.

************

Amen. Those who would question are drawn to these threads for a reason.

[davidosborne]

bttt

[ScubieNuc]

"I find it somewhat curious that some Protestants, who take the scripture sooooo literally, seem to fall down when Jesus says "this IS my body""

What needs to be looked at is context. The Passover meal was in rememberence of God's grace extended to Israel. When Jesus is talking about the unleavened bread, the Jews understood that to mean without sin (leven represented sin).

What's ironic is when Catholics deny symbolism. The whole of Catholic dogma rests on believing Peter is the "rock" that the church is based on. If rock isn't a symbol, then it must mean that Peter was actually made of Granite or something.

Let me ask you this...Jesus says that if you eat of this bread you will never hunger. (John 6:35) So because you believe that Jesus was saying that eating the Eucharist is the same as taking a bite out of Jesus's arm, does John 6:35 mean that you only need to take the Eucharist once? Or does it mean that after taking the Eucharist, you don't need to eat other food the rest of your life?

If either one of those is true, then why do you take the Eucharist many times? and why do you continue to eat other food?

Sincerely