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Can traditions contradict God's completed Word?
The Mountain Retreat ^ | 1998 | Tony Warren

Posted on 08/14/2006 11:19:14 AM PDT by Gamecock

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1 posted on 08/14/2006 11:19:17 AM PDT by Gamecock
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins; blue-duncan; Corin Stormhands; drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; ...
GRPL Ping

And a few non-members of some loosely bound federation that resembles a ping list, but isn't

2 posted on 08/14/2006 11:23:09 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable." Robert Farrar Capon)
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To: Gamecock

This oughtta be interesting.


3 posted on 08/14/2006 11:28:32 AM PDT by Terabitten (The only time you can have too much ammunition is when you're swimming.)
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To: Gamecock

Interesting...

All of the scriptural quotes were written by people within the Church. Followed by those who held to the traditions of the Church. Followed by those whom decided the books that you claim to the Bible.

These arguements remind me of liberals today that inheirited the constitution of the US and now want it on their terms...instead of calling it Sola Scriptura it is a biased interpretation.

Christ in Revelation praises two churches, one which is the Messenger of the Church of Smyrna. This is St Polycarp the Bishop of Smyrna, disciple of St John. Maybe you ought to read what the Lord praised (unless you think that the Lord did not know what St John has passed on to St Polycarp...but then we have a different problem).

St Polycarp is teaching that to "not" believe that in reality the very body and blood of the Lord is in the cup is antichrist. Even though it is a mystery to the early church...the disciples of St John understood it's significance (read St Ignatius, also a disciple of St John).

Don't see many Sola Scriptura experts claiming this fact.

Today, GOP and Dems can parse the constitution till it screams and both believe they are right (or left). The same with scripture. The problem is there is one Truth and one final arbitor...The Spirit of Truth promised to the Church and confirmed by Christ on the Island of Patmos (confirmed by giving the 2nd generation messenger an A+).

By the way, St Polycarp also speaks of other matters that Christ confirms that might be of similar interest to someone really seeking Truth (and not just trying to justify themselves with many words).

Who would you trust to interpret the constitution more, those that were there learing from the original writers or those removed by centuries. Sure, the latter may be what you want to hear, but the former is closer to the Truth.


4 posted on 08/14/2006 11:39:02 AM PDT by AMHN (Book Survey: Which is greater "Truth" or "Love"? FReepmail a reply)
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To: AMHN

So are you saying that the canon of Scripture is still open?


5 posted on 08/14/2006 11:45:58 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable." Robert Farrar Capon)
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To: Gamecock; AMHN
So are you saying that the canon of Scripture is still open?

I think what he's saying is that the canon of Scripture is written in code, i.e. unintelligible in and of itself.

6 posted on 08/14/2006 11:49:02 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: Alex Murphy
WOW! Just like some who use their secret decoder rings to find secret passages!


7 posted on 08/14/2006 11:57:11 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable." Robert Farrar Capon)
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To: AMHN

Sorry, by convention I should have pinged you to the above.


8 posted on 08/14/2006 11:58:02 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable." Robert Farrar Capon)
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To: Gamecock
The money quote:
Is such an idea founded in reality? Of course not. It is rationalization of oral tradition, not proof of it.
As far as I'm concerned, "of course not" is not a dispositive argument. In fact, it's not an argument at all. This is not an argument, it's a statement of a position and some of its implications.

The argument in this article is circular (and verbose: the existence of a lot of verses about reading accomplishes nothing logically)and based on suppositions outside of Scripture.

I am not criticizing the proposition, just the argument.

9 posted on 08/14/2006 12:11:10 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Reality is not optional.)
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To: Gamecock
WOW! Just like some who use their secret decoder rings to find secret passages!

Did you know that Jesus issued one of these to each of the apostles - but only Peter was issued the code key?

10 posted on 08/14/2006 12:18:57 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: Alex Murphy

Did I mention that I am flying to Rome on the 31st?


11 posted on 08/14/2006 12:21:05 PM PDT by Gamecock ("Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable." Robert Farrar Capon)
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To: Gamecock

SPOTREP


12 posted on 08/14/2006 12:25:14 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Gamecock; Alex Murphy; P-Marlowe; xzins; Corin Stormhands

Now I know what you guys are doing. You are posting the longest, most involved threads and pinging the no-list neeners to keep us busy and away from productive fun.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1683342/posts


13 posted on 08/14/2006 12:46:20 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: AMHN
All of the scriptural quotes were written by people within the Church. Followed by those who held to the traditions of the Church. Followed by those whom decided the books that you claim to the Bible.

Those quotes were written by Christians. The books of the New Testament were already in circulation before the end of the first century. The Holy Spirit decided canon, and the the church simply recognized what was already in place.
14 posted on 08/14/2006 12:46:23 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: blue-duncan

Not exactly


15 posted on 08/14/2006 12:52:32 PM PDT by Gamecock ("Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable." Robert Farrar Capon)
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To: GarySpFc

There were dozens of supposedly "inspired" books in circulation declared non-canonical by Pope Boniface. That was the whole point of declaring a canon. In a sense, it was already "in place" (it was "in place" from before the beginning of time), but human beings did the discerning by aid of the Holy Spirit, among many more texts than appear in the Bible as we know it.


16 posted on 08/14/2006 12:52:48 PM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: Rutles4Ever

That is why we have two different canons for the Bible.


17 posted on 08/14/2006 1:00:19 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: Gamecock

"So are you saying that the canon of Scripture is still open?"

I'm not making any claim for or against that (I've left that to the Ecumenical councils of the 1st 1000 years). What I am saying is the when modern thought conflicts with earlier traditions I must choose the earlier chosen by the entirety of the Church pre-denominational (all 5 Patriarchs [Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem], synods, and Bishops).

If Christ promised to send the Spirit of Truth to guide the Church in all Truth then I must by faith believe Christ. For a 1000 years before the great schism, and continuing since then in the Orthodox Church, an unbroken line of the fullness of the Truth has lived.

A very interesting point to consider: The 1st Ecumenical Council of Nicea in 325 AD was conviened to answer a simple question raised by Arius concerning the Divinity of Christ. What is interesting is how they proceeded. The 318 Bishops where not asked to interpret scripture or perform and exegesis of verses. Instead that where asked to express what had been handed down to them via their predicessors (tradition). They had to do this because the scriptures as you hold them today did not exist. What you think is scripture was part of many other books that the Church had to consider. Grant it by 325 AD the Church had a pretty good idea which were going to be included and which ones not. But it was not until many centuries later that the cannon as you see it today was accepted at an Ecumenical level.

Interesting how it lined up perfectly with scripture and was easily defended by scripture. Not because they were all Saints, but in spite of the human element, the Spirit of Truth was present.

I would add this final comment. The modern bible, although very very close is completely inaccurate over some key passages (when lined up with the original Greek). The bias that have found their way into modern scripture has significantly changed many iota's and many tittle's. Outside of Orthodoxy, I can't find a true version absent of bias. A person may say I'm bias, which may be true, but then I have to ask...but what about writings that confirm the original language from the early centuries?

Although my personal opinion, I believe that the same Ecumenical Councils would reject these modern translations as another gospel as they did other minor variations from the Truth.

Although modern translations can guide you close to Truth, humility is what is required to cross the finish line. Pride is the mother of Sola Scripture and ultimately, it will deceive.

18 posted on 08/14/2006 1:04:55 PM PDT by AMHN (Book Survey: Which is greater "Truth" or "Love"? FReepmail a reply)
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To: GarySpFc

"Those quotes were written by Christians. The books of the New Testament were already in circulation before the end of the first century. The Holy Spirit decided canon, and the the church simply recognized what was already in place."

Yes. The books of the NT were already in circulation before the end of the 1st century...as were hundreds of other gospels and writings such as the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Thomas, etc...

Yes. The Holy Spirit did decide on Canon...through the undivided, pre-denominational Church of faithful. The same Church that has been faithful to all that the Holy Spirit did for 2000 years since Christ. It didn't just fall from the sky or appear out of thin air. God works through the faithful. The same Holy Spirit present when books were being decided did not just come and go as other issues were being decided (at the same moments and same meetings).

They recognized the Truth because they were guided by the Spirit of Truth...again not just about the canon of books.

Why were the most important issues facing the Church decided by the Church, visible, and still are today? Maybe because the Holy Spirit was present? I think so!

Look how the Apostle came together in Acts and found the it was good to both them and the Holy Spirit...how did "they" know that when even St Peter was wrong "alone". Because the Holy Spirit works through the Church, the body of Christ, and not the individual per se (not to be misinterpreted as the individual not having the Holy Spirit, but that the individual has a higher probability of following their own passions and not the Truth than does two or more. But even in todays world it is easy for many influenced by a lifetime of unTruth to miss the Truth of the Holy Spirit and is why we must be humble to the early Church).

19 posted on 08/14/2006 1:22:09 PM PDT by AMHN (Book Survey: Which is greater "Truth" or "Love"? FReepmail a reply)
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To: AMHN
Yes. The books of the NT were already in circulation before the end of the 1st century...as were hundreds of other gospels and writings such as the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Thomas, etc...

Wrong! The Gospel of Thomas Greek manuscript fragments have been dated to 200AD and the Coptic version to 340AD. The Gospel of Judas has been dated 130 to 170AD. These are much later than the original New Testament books.
20 posted on 08/14/2006 1:32:47 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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