Skip to comments.The Lord's Prayer
Posted on 08/18/2006 10:52:01 AM PDT by NYer
Recently a Protestant friend asked me why Catholics do not include, "For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, now and forever," at the end of the Our Father. I really do not know. Can you help me?
The "For thine..." is technically termed a "doxology." In the Bible, we find the practice of concluding prayers with a short, hymn-like verse which exalts the glory of God. An example similar to the doxology in question is found in Davids prayer located in I Chronicles 29:10-13 of the Old Testament. The Jews frequently used these doxologies to conclude prayers at the time of our Lord.
In the early Church, the Christians living in the eastern half of the Roman Empire added the doxology "For thine..." to the Gospel text of the Our Father when reciting the prayer at Mass. Evidence of this practice is also found in the Didache (Teaching of the Twelve Apostles), a first-century manual of morals, worship and doctrine of the Church. (The Didache also prescribed that the faithful recite the Our Father three times a day.) Also when copying the Scriptures, Greek scribes sometimes appended the doxology onto the original Gospel text of the Our Father; however, most texts today would omit this inclusion, relegate it to a footnote, or note that it was a later addition to the Gospel. Official "Catholic" Bibles including the Vulgate, the Douay-Rheims, the Confraternity Edition, and the New American have never included this doxology.
In the western half of the Roman Empire and in the Latin rite, the Our Father was always an important part of the Mass. St. Jerome (d. 420) attested to the usage of the Our Father in the Mass, and St. Gregory the Great (d. 604) placed the recitation of the Our Father after the Canon and before the Fraction. The Commentary on the Sacrament of St. Ambrose (d. 397) meditated on the meaning of "daily bread" in the context of the Holy Eucharist. In this same vein, St. Augustine (d. 430) saw the Our Father as a beautiful connection of the Holy Eucharist with the forgiveness of sins. In all instances, the Church saw this perfect prayer which our Lord gave to us as a proper means of preparing for Holy Communion. However, none of this evidence includes the appended doxology.
Interestingly, the English wording of the Our Father that we use today reflects the version mandated for use by Henry VIII (while still in communion with the Catholic Church), which was based on the English version of the Bible produced by Tyndale (1525). Later in 1541 (after his official separation from the Holy Father), Henry VIII issued an edict saying, "His Grace perceiving now the great diversity of the translations (of the Pater Noster etc.) hath willed them all to be taken up, and instead of them hath caused an uniform translation of the said Pater Noster, Ave, Creed, etc., to be set forth, willing all his loving subjects to learn and use the same and straitly [sic] commanding all parsons, vicars, and curates to read and teach the same to their parishioners." This English version without the doxology of the Our Father became accepted throughout the English-speaking world, even though the later English translations of the Bible including the Catholic Douay-Rheims (1610) and Protestant King James versions (1611) had different renderings of prayers as found in the Gospel of St. Matthew. Later, the Catholic Church made slight modifications in the English: "who art" replaced "which art," and "on earth" replaced "in earth." During the reign of Edward VI, the Book of Common Prayer (1549 and 1552 editions) of the Church of England did not change the wording of the Our Father or add the doxology. However, during the reign of Elizabeth I and a resurgence to rid the Church of England of any Catholic vestiges, the Lords Prayer was changed to include the doxology.
The irony of this answer is that some Protestants sometimes accuse Catholics of not being "literally" faithful to Sacred Scripture and depending too much on Tradition. In this case, we see that the Catholic Church has been faithful to the Gospel text of the Our Father, while Protestant Churches have added something of Tradition to the words of Jesus. Nevertheless, the Our Father is the one and perfect prayer given to us by our Lord Jesus Christ, and all of the faithful should offer this prayer, reflecting on the full meaning of its words.
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
Pater noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen.
According to a colleague of mine, who is the ancient Greek and Latin teacher at a Catholic high school, the "original" Greek version of the Our Father and the Latin version are ambigious in the ending. "Sed libera nos a malo" could mean "deliver us from evil" or "deliver us from the Evil One."
How do you explain, Matthew 6 V:13?
Leaving aside sophisticated theology for a moment, quite simply, Catholics pray as Christ instructed. Just look in the Bible.
During the Mass:
Priest says: "Let us pray in the words our Saviour taught us." (Or similar phrasing).
Then priest and people TOGETHER say the "Our Father" (just as Jesus taught the disciples, straight from scripture).
Then priest says: "Deliver us Lord from every evil and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy protect us from all anxiety, as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Saviour." (approximately)
Then the congregation (only) says "For Thine is the kingdom, etc...." It is a separate prayer.
Here's a somewhat unrelated but true story:
My mother went to grade school in Chicago in the 40's. Apparently in those days, class began not only with the Pledge of Allegiance, but the Our Father as well. Yes, this was a public school.
Before her first day, my Grandmother, a devout Catholic, told my Mom, "Now they are going to say the Our Father at the beginning of school, BUT, they are saying the Protestant version! So after you say "deliver us from evil," you stop! Stay silent for the rest of it!"
So God was then allowed in the classroom, but only the socially dominant WASP version.
In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety, as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ.
And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.
The meaning of the "temptation" part here is twofold: not to put us to a test we have no strength to pass, and to grant us strength to overcome the temptation we do face.
The lacking a definite article "evil" is unfortunate and comes from Latin which lacks articles altogether. The Greek has a definite article, "liberate us from the evil". The preferred translation is "from the Evil one", that is from Satan. Translations to Slav languages, done directly from Greek render it that way: "liberate us from The Crooked One". The sequel said by the priest in the Latin tradition provides the necessary clarification in a different way: "Deliver us, oh Lord, from every evil". The point is that it is not some abstract evil that we want liberty from, but rather very concrete and numerous attacks of the Satan.
I didn't care for it in Latin...Couldn't read a thing...So, it was meaningless...
Knowing your severe anti-Catholicism displayed on this forum, I'm not surprised. You do know that English is substantially based on Latin, right?
Let me guess..you're not Catholic.
Thanks for sharing.
If it were in Greek, it would be meaningless to me, unless of course, I knew it was the Lord's prayer, then I would do my meaningful translation.
For me, it is absolutely beautiful in Latin. Of course, I was brought up in the tradition and absolutely love it.
Aside from a few ancillaries, nearly every word in the prayer has found itself into English.
advent, vent, avenue
panis, bread -- no corresponding borrowing that comes to mind
hodie <- diem = day
What's that got to do with it??? I thinks it's a pretty good prayer in English...
So what's the fixation with Latin anyway??? I went to a Latin spoken service one time...Total waste of time, for me...
Truly sad that speaking the Lord's Prayer and meeting the Lord is a waste of time for you. I've been Masses celebrated in other languages, and even if I didn't understand the language, it was still a joy because I was meeting the Lord. I pity you in your narrowness.
Agreed. I wish I had taken Latin, it's a very valuable tool for understanding English. I also prefer the Latin Mass.
Avvon d-bish-maiya, nith-qaddash shim-mukh.
Tih-teh mal-chootukh. Nih-weh çiw-yanukh:
ei-chana d'bish-maiya: ap b'ar-ah.
Haw lan lakh-ma d'soonqa-nan yoo-mana.
O'shwooq lan kho-bein:
ei-chana d'ap kh'nan shwiq-qan l'khaya-ween.
Oo'la te-ellan l'niss-yoona:
il-la paç-çan min beesha.
Mid-til de-di-lukh hai mal-choota
oo khai-la oo tush-bookh-ta
l'alam al-mein. Aa-meen.
Well, this is interesting:
Aramaic is a Semitic language with a 3,000-year history. It has been the language of administration of empires and the language of divine worship. It is the original language of large sections of the biblical books of Daniel and Ezra, and is the main language of the Talmud. Aramaic is believed to have been the native language of Jesus. Modern Aramaic is spoken today as a first language by numerous, scattered communities, most significantly by Assyrians. The language is considered to be endangered.
Aramaic belongs to the Afro-Asiatic language family. Within that diverse family, it belongs to the Semitic subfamily. Aramaic is a part of the Northwest Semitic group of languages, which also includes the Canaanite languages (such as Hebrew).
Interesting. Jesus the Jew taught a Jewish prayer.
The Aramaic Prayer To Our Father
This wording and pronunciation is the closest that
we know to the form which Jesus spoke.
Our Father in heaven,
Holy is Thy name.
Your Kingdom is coming,
Your will is being done
on earth as it is in heaven.
af bara hav lan lakma dsoonkanan
Give us bread for our needs day by day.
yamana washbook lan
Forgive us our offenses
kavine aykana daf
as we have forgiven our offenders.
hanan shabookan lhayavine oolow talahn lanesyana
Do not let us enter into temptation.
ela fatsan men beesha
Deliver us from error.
Within the Catholic Church, Syriac/Aramaic is retained as a liturgical language by several Churches - the Maronite, Chaldean and Syro-Malankara for sure and possibly others as well.
The Words of Institution in the Maronite Church are chanted by the priest, in Aramaic. Each time I hear them, it is like being transported back through time, to the Upper Room.
I recognized three words: aboun (Abba), mana, and ameyn. :) Daddy, food, and "so be it".
That's great! Remember, this is a transliteration of the original text.
Here's an amusing story for your efforts. The Maronites call their pastor "Abouna". Recently, our pastor was doing some work at the 150 y/o Methodist Episcopal Church we purchased and which is now being renovated into a Catholic Church. A redneck 'neighbor' stopped by to complain to him about the property survey. He could see Father was a Catholic priest by the clericals he always wears. So, he began by asking Father what his name was. Here is the conversation that ensued:
Neighbor: "What's your name?"
Father: "Father Kairouz."
Neighbor: "I'm not a religious man; what's your name?"
Father: "Father Kairouz."
Neighbor: "Look, I don't care about religion; what's your name?"
Father: "My name is Father Kairouz. If you can't address me by my name, then there is no discussion regarding property lines". (and with that he walked away).
On hearing about this exchange, I suggested that the next time it surfaces, he should simply respond with the truth: "My name is Abouna". The neighbor will think he has an "in" and Father will be respected with his proper title. Lol!
You were meeting the Lord??? Well, I met the Lord when I got saved and He hasn't left yet...And I don't expect Him to...
I'm sorry you have to go somewhere to meet the Lord...
Yes, physically meeting him in the Sacrament of His Body and Blood.
I'm sorry you have to go somewhere to meet the Lord...
No, you are the impoverished one who cannot accept an Incarnate Lord Who feeds us of His own Flesh and Blood. He is not just merely "in my heart" but is incorporated into my very flesh everyday when I consume Him. He is not just a spiritual reality but a Real and Physical Reality. That is part of the mystery of Incarnation. Someday I pray you will understand what Christ said about eating his Body and Blood. It has been the belief of the Church from her ancient roots.
Yes, His flesh is food and His Blood is drink. Jesus said it. So yes, Jesus physically and spiritually abides in me.
If you cannot believe that bread can be changed into His Body or wine into His Blood, how can you believe that you will be raised on the last day? With God nothing is impossible.
Do you have to work at being offensive or does it just come naturally? Your question could have been asked in a way that does not rile those up who believe in the physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist. That you didn't makes me question your sincerity as a Christian.
This phrase in the Lord's Prayer clearly tells us that we will be forgiven the same as we forgive others. So, if we don't forgive others, then we aren't forgiven. I've always wondered how this conforms to the premise "once saved, always saved". If you have been saved once and forever, it seems that this phrase in the prayer would be meaningless.
So it comes naturally.
went to a Catholic service...I ate the cookie...I didn't see Jesus...That's because he's not there
You need to know that you are not allowed to participate in taking Communion in the Orthodox and 22 Catholic churches. Also, you should be aware of the consequences if you do:
No, it is not the same. When Jesus sais "I am the door", he did not have a door in his hands and refer to it specifically, as he did to the bread and wine at the Last Supper. Additional verses regarding the Eucharist, e.g. Chronicles 11:27 for one, confirm that Jesus was not speaking figuratively. 2000 years of teaching and understanding of Scripture tells us the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ. That is why Eastern Orthodox, the 22 Catholic Churches, Anglicans, and Lutherns believe in the true, physical presence. I think I'll stick with the 2000 years of Christian teaching and understanding led by the Holy Spirit than rely on the scriptual interpretation of a Johnny-come-lately who thinks his views trump everyone else's.
Does a priest wave a magic wand
Orthdox, Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans don't practice magic and don't use wands.
Now, instead of trying to hijack another thread, why don't you get back on topic.
Thank you, for listing the English cognates. Chanting the Lord's Prayer in Latin is wonderful. When I went to a General Audience at St. Peter's Square with tens of thousands of us, it was thrilling to hear us all gathered from all corners of the earth chanting it together.
Transubstantiation is a MYSTERY. Just because one cannot logically explain the mysteries of God does not mean they are not Real.
God did not come down to publish a Book and then leave us floundering around for centuries. It's amazing how some Christians can quote chapter and verse, yet refuse to accept the explicit teachings of Christ about the Eucharist. Indeed, those listenng at the time declared "Who can believe him? This is too hard!" and left. It is one of the hardest, even though one of the clearest, mandates of Christ, because it is not simple to grasp.
This is why Christ established a living Church (not just a Bible), guided by the Holy Spirit and incapable of dogmatic error. So not only do we have the teachings of Christ himself, both in words (John, Chap.6) and actions (Last Supper), we have them reaffirmed by the Council of Trent and COUNTLESS Eucharistic miracles and revelations.
It is also amazing that some Christians believe that God created the universe out of nothing, but for Him to turn bread and wine into His body and blood is beyond belief.
I didn't hijack the thread...One of you Catholics brought up meeting the Lord at the Eucharist...I responded...
Now be honest about it...Any one that can read can see the context of the chapter/verses...It's written as a metaphor...
Your church ignores the biblical context...You chose to believe the church and ignore the bible...You seem to have trouble admitting that...
Lord, forgive him.
MOST Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I adore Thee profoundly.
I offer Thee the Most Precious Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity
of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world,
in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges, and indifference
by which He is offended. And through the infinite merit
of His Most Sacred Heart, and the Immaculate Heart of Mary,
I beg of Thee the conversion of poor sinners.
Thanks. Offering a prayer is a much better response than trying to get blasphemers to understand they are causing offense.
"You chose to believe the church and ignore the bible...You seem to have trouble admitting that..."
Please let me clarify that I am neither "admitting" nor declaring that. Of course the Catholic Church does not "ignore" the Bible. The Church is THE interpretor of the Bible.
"If it's really Jesus when you stuff him into your mouth, is it still Jesus a couple days later???"
The Eucharist remains as the "Real Presence" until it is completely disolved. In the human body, that is about 30-45 minutes.
What's with the potty-reference?
Is this the level of maturity in the snake handling world?