Posted on 08/26/2006 7:06:49 AM PDT by Teófilo
**Are we surprised that many divorced Catholics go to other churches where they feel welcome and are invited to fully participate?**
There is no reason that a divorced person cannot attend his or her Catholic Church and receive the sacraments -- UNLESS -- they have remarried. And they can fix that too, by talking with the priest and going through the annulment process.
This comment clearly show the difference between protestant worship and Catholic worship. For the Protestant the summit of worship is prayer. For the Catholic the summit of worship is the Eucharist.
I reprint the following from Askfather.net.
The Most Blessed Eucharist must always be treated with all the adoration and creature-like submission which is rendered to God. If non-Catholics do not believe that the Eucharist is God Himself, let them sneer, or deride, or cast smug aspersions upon us for our "foolish beliefs." But let them do so sitting down, in the pew, at Communion time.
There are not found wanting many a foolish Catholic who for the sake of "niceness" might wish to water down the rule of closed Communion. "But what if they feel pain?" "My neighbor loves Communion time in her church and she felt we shunned her." "What's the big deal, as long as someone loves Jesus?" "I think we have so many rules, and rules exclude and divide."
The response is: "and your point is?"
To be quite frank and blunt about it, separation from the one, Catholic Church of Jesus Christ is a sinful condition (not saying the people are bad, but such separation is completely opposed to the mind of Christ). When people come face to face with a sinful condition, they are supposed to feel pain and hurt. But the pain and hurt are not inflicted by the big, bad, mean Church (facetiously meant). They are inflicted by the conscience, which knows that the division of Christianity is a sinful state of affairs.
This is the "tough love part" of Christianity we are dealing with. As Catholics and Christians of all denominations face the Communion issue, there has to be a realization that understanding and trust are based upon the truth. The truth is that the Catholic doctrine and understanding of the Most Holy Eucharist are irreconcilably different than most non-Catholic beliefs. For us, Communion is not just union with Jesus. Communion also makes a powerful, public testimonial about our relationship to the Catholic Church. Communion is the outward sign that one has joined the Church, firmly confesses the Catholic Faith, and is prepared to act in accord with this Faith and submit their behavior before the judgement of the Church for moral formation (confession, penance, etc.).
All the hugging, kissing, and sweet comments that we make to each other at ecumenical gatherings cannot suppress this truth or make it go away. To do so is to live in fantasy and dysfunction. The practical, concrete result of this truth for a non-Catholic is, "oh, since I can't presently accept those conditions, I need to be honest about my non-compliance and remain seated while Communion is going on at the Catholic Mass."...
http://www.askfather.net/discus/messages/874458/2112.html
Laudetur Iesus Christus.... In aeturnum. Amen
**This comment clearly show the difference between protestant worship and Catholic worship. For the Protestant the summit of worship is prayer. For the Catholic the summit of worship is the Eucharist. **
Great post!
And so many former Catholics who attend Protestant Churches leave and wonder why they feel to empty and unfilled. The Eucharist is the reason!!
May they always know they may return to the Catholic Church. We welcome them back with arms open wide!
These are all thought-provoking and astute observations deserving of further, charitable exploration. I am not going to tackle them right now, but progressively, in future posts. Thanks for sharing!
-Theo
Flames are an occupational hazard. ;-)
-Theo
I don't want so soud picky but, what was the Counter-Reformation? What does it mean "to play" and "exacerbate" and what "situation"?
These are serious context questions that I would like to clarify before agreeing in whole or in part, or disagreeing.
My point in replying to the post you're replying to was that Protestant sloganeering proves nothing; it just make the slogan-sayers feel happier and more secure.
-Theo
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The Counter-Reformation was the Catholic response to the Protestant Reformation, including but not limited to the Council of Trent, the Inquisition, and the Index.
exacerbate
Make a bad situation worse.
what "situation"?
The conflict between Protestant and Catholic. The vitriol, the hatred, and the violence.
that Protestant sloganeering proves nothing; it just make the slogan-sayers feel happier and more secure.
The Protestants had no corner on sloganeering.
Ok, got it. I agree with you. Next?
So, conversion is a two-way street. Some go one way and some go the other. That's freedom in religion, and I'm glad we have it. .
You got off to a shaky start but have now settled into the rhythmn of the forum. There are two Catholic Ping Lists on FR. I sponsor the list of newsworthy and other articles and Salvation hosts the Daily Mass Readings. Please freepmail us if you would like to be added to either or both of our lists. That said,
Contrast with most Catholic parishes where there is no coffee (if any, sparsely attended), people rush away after Mass and the few activities are attended by a small percentage of the parish and are usually cancelled for the summer. What kind of a faith community is this?
Following VCII, the Latin Church expanded its 2 Sunday masses to at least one on Saturday and 2 or 3 on Sunday. You make a good point! It would be nice if refreshments were served after these Masses but that requires committed volunteers and donations. It also entails sign up sheets and someone to keep track of who is bringing what to feed how many at any given Mass. It's a worthy pursuit and I would strongly encourage you to approach your Parish Council with this proposal. They will no doubt ask you to volunteer to take on this task.
ALL of the Eastern Catholic Churches offer refreshments after their liturgies and these are well attended by the parishioners. In my parish, sign up sheets are kept on a table at the entrance to the church where everyone entering must pass. The community itself assumes the task of volunteering the refreshments, setting them up inside the church before liturgy and cleaning up afterwards. Then again, we only have 2 liturgies - one on Saturday and one on Sunday. Whenever visitors drop in, Father welcomes and invites them to share these refreshments and conversation with us, after liturgy. First we pray as a community, then we gather for conversation. The community is like an extended family.
Are we surprised that many divorced Catholics go to other churches where they feel welcome and are invited to fully participate?
I know a family where the wife is divorced and remarried without an annulment. They have a son. She continues to attend Mass at her RC parish but does not receive communion. She admits that she should apply for an annulment but has not. Where's the problem?
Catholics practice birth control, they do not believe it is a sin, their consciences are clear, they know and understand moral theology.
Do you believe it is a sin? Most catholics are poorly catechized. They would prefer to watch CSI than read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. My guess is that they do know it is a sin and intentionally avoid affirming that knowledge through reading church documents.
These catholics are dissenters, no different from the women in PA who went to great lengths to be 'ordained priests'. They disagree with church teachings, on their own principles.
... some of the self righteous, take it or leave it, Canon law misquoting people you have to live with can certainly drive you to the exit door, and not unexpectedly, they would be quick to say “good riddance”.
Sure ... there are those who probably consider themselves 'self righteous' but have you ever actually heard anyone make such a statement? On the contrary, even the most devout catholic, commits themself to prayer for the lost sheep. I believe they would be the first ones to say "welcome home" to those who have erred and recognized where they went wrong.
On the other hand, there are many converts coming into the Catholic Church because of its stance on birth control and marriage. Dr. Scott Hahn and his wife Beverly have written extensively on NFP and its awesome beauty. The door swings both ways. Those who seek a life in full communion with the message of Christ are always welcome into the Catholic Church. Those who dissent are always free to leave.
BTW, Patti Bonds has since joined a religious order as a third order member. Pehaps someone can find a link and post the picture, along with this new chapter in her life.
1) that's a legitamate problem that many parishes had. Perhaps if they were offered more sustance during homiles, then there would be more to discuss after Mass.
2) this too is a problem, but not so much with the younger generations of priests. They say what needs to be said. I belong to a Dominican Parish, so we have always had good preaching.
3) There is nothing wrong with Catholics practicing birth control. It is morally wrong for Catholics to practice artificial forms of birth control, most properly called contraception. So let's be accurate with our speech. There is a huge problem with lack of education when it comes to the Church's teachings concerning marriage. However, once again, the younger generation is much more open to the truth and is seeking it.
Well said.
I've got a few corrolaries of my own, to wit: hype =1/value (this is universal); the better looking the outside, the less valueable the inside (this is only a guideline). I'll think of more...
Was that Christ The King In Jacksonville?
-A8
That's very sad about her brother. I have one of those as well.
No, Tampa. And I have since moved. But that's the first place I took communion in my adult life.
I'd like to comment on some of your observations. For instance...
Wander if you will, to some of the faster growing alternative “religious” groups, Unity, for example, where after the services the people gather for coffee, discussion and community, and where many activities, including Bible study, etc. take place during the week, even during the summer months.
This is indeed the case. And, in my limited experience in Protestant denominations, it is borne of giving people what they want. In some cases, it appears that they've done some market surveys on the subject. I'm not knocking it. People is what is a lot of what religion is all about
Contrast with most Catholic parishes where there is no coffee (if any, sparsely attended), people rush away after Mass and the few activities are attended by a small percentage of the parish and are usually canceled for the summer. What kind of a faith community is this?
There are areas where we can improve. And, you've had the perception to see it. All I can do is to encourage you to make a difference personally.
If there is no coffee after mass, tell your pastor that you want to host a coffee and donuts some Sunday.
If the singing participation is poor, join the choir, etc.
All we can do is our own part. If you've made the observations you've made, perhaps it's because you are being called to make a difference.
Though I enjoy thinkers. It's the doers who make things happen.
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