Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

What do you do with a future National Israel in the Bible?
Tribulation Forces ^ | Thomas Ice

Posted on 09/01/2006 5:32:18 AM PDT by xzins

What do you do with a future National Israel in the Bible?
by Thomas Ice


I suspect that most of you have been at a theological crossroad at least once in your Christian life. I have stood at several over the years. Let me tell you about one such instance, since it is one that many have faced down through church history. It involves the question of "What do you do with a future national Israel in the Bible?" The decision one makes about this question will largely determine your view of Bible prophecy, thus greatly impacting your view of the Bible itself and where history is headed.

A Personal Crossroad

Back in the early '80s I lived in Oklahoma and was in my first pastorate after getting out of Dallas Seminary in 1980. I had been attracted for about a decade to the writings of those known as Christian Reconstructionists. Most reconstructionists are preterist postmillennial1 in their view of Bible prophecy. Up to this point in my life I considered myself a reconstructionist who was not postmillennial, but dispensational premillennial. Through a series of events, I came to a point in my thinking where I believed that I had to consider whether postmillennialism was biblical. I recall having come to the point in my mind where I actually wanted to switch to postmillennialism and had thought about what that would mean for me in the ministry. I remember thinking that I was willing to make whatever changes would be necessary if I concluded that the Bible taught postmillennialism.

I went on a trip to Tyler, Texas (at the time a reconstructionist stronghold) and visited with Gary North and his pastor Ray Sutton. I spent most of my time talking with Ray Sutton, a Dallas graduate who had made the journey from dispensationalism to postmillennialism. As I got in my car to drive the 100 miles to Dallas where I would stay that night, I expected to make the shift to postmillennialism. In fact, I spent the night in the home of my current co-author, Tim Demy, who told me later that he said to his wife after talking with me, "Well Lynn, looks like we've lost Tommy to postmillennialism."

The next morning as I drove from Dallas to Oklahoma, my mind was active with a debate between the two positions. About two-thirds of the way home, I concluded that to make the shift to postmillennialism I would have to spiritualize many of the passages referring to a future for national Israel and replace them with the church. At that moment of realization, which has been strengthened since through many hours of in-depth Bible study, I lost any attraction to postmillennialism.

Since that time, more than fifteen years ago, further Bible study has continued to strengthen my belief that God has a future plan for national Israel. It was the Bible's clear teaching about a future for national Israel that kept me a dispensationalist. What the Bible teaches about national Israel's future has been a central issue impacting the action of Christians on many important issues. It is hard to think of a more important issue that has exerted a greater practical impact upon Christendom than the Church's treatment of unbelieving Jews during her 2,000 year history. As we will see, treatment of the Jews by Christendom usually revolves around one's understanding of Israel's future national role in God's plan.

Chrisendom's Anti-Semitism

Over the years I have been asked many times, "How can a genuine, born-again Christian be anti-Semitic?" Most American evangelical Christians today have a high view of Jews and the modern state of Israel and do not realize that this is a more recent development because of the positive influence of the dispensational view that national Israel has a future in the plan of God. Actually, for the last 2,000 years, Chrisendom has been responsible for much of the world's anti-Semitism. What has been the reason within Chrisendom that would allow anti-Semitism to develop and prosper? Replacement theology has been recognized at the culprit.

What is replacement theology? Replacement theology is the view that the Church has permanently replaced Israel as the instrument through which God works and that national Israel does not have a future in the plan of God. Some replacement theologians may believe that individual Jews will be converted and enter into the church (something that we all believe), but they do not believe that God will literally fulfill the dozens of Old Testament promises to a converted national Israel in the future. For example, reconstructionist David Chilton says that "ethnic Israel was excommunicated for its apostasy and will never again be God's Kingdom."2 Chilton says again, "the Bible does not tell of any future plan for Israel as a special nation."3 Reconstructionist patriarch, R. J. Rushdoony uses the strongest language when he declares,

The fall of Jerusalem, and the public rejection of physical Israel as the chosen people of God, meant also the deliverance of the true people of God, the church of Christ, the elect, out of the bondage to Israel and Jerusalem, . . .4

A further heresy clouds premillennial interpretations of Scripture--their exaltation of racism into a divine principle. Every attempt to bring the Jew back into prophecy as a Jew is to give race and works (for racial descent is a human work) a priority over grace and Christ's work and is nothing more or less than paganism. . . . There can be no compromise with this vicious heresy.5

The Road to Holocaust

Replacement theology and its view that Israel is finished in history nationally has been responsible for producing theological anti-Semitism in the church. History records that such a theology, when combined with the right social and political climate, has produced and allowed anti-Semitism to flourish. This was a point made by Hal Lindsey in The Road to Holocaust, to which reconstructionists cried foul. A book was written to rebut Lindsey by Jewish reconstructionist Steve Schlissel. Strangely, Schlissel's book (Hal Lindsey & The Restoration of the Jews) ended up supporting Lindsey's thesis that replacement theology produced anti-Semitism in the past and could in the future. Schlissel seems to share Lindsey's basic view on the rise and development of anti-Semitism within the history of the church. After giving his readers an overview of the history of anti-Semitism through Origen, Augustine, Chrysostom, Ambrose, and Jerome, Schlissel then quotes approvingly Raul Hilberg's famous quote included in Lindsey's Holocaust.

Viewing the plight of the Jews in Christian lands from the fourth century to the recent holocaust, one Jew observed, "First we were told 'You're not good enough to live among us as Jews.' Then we were told, 'You're not good enough to live among us.' Finally we were told, 'You're not good enough to live.'"6

Schlissel then comments approvingly upon Hilberg's statement,

This devastatingly accurate historical analysis was the fruit of an error, a building of prejudice and hate erected upon a false theological foundation. The blindness of the church regarding the place of the Jew in redemptive history is, I believe, directly responsible for the wicked sins and attitudes described above. What the church believes about the Jews has always made a difference. But the church has not always believed a lie.7

The truth, noted by Schlissel, is what his other reconstructionist brethren deny. What Schlissel has called a lie is the replacement theology that his preterist reconstructionist brethren advocate. Their form of replacement theology is the problem. Schlissel goes on to show that the Reformed church of Europe, after the Reformation, widely adopted the belief that God's future plan for Israel includes a national restoration of Israel. Many even taught that Israel would one day rebuild her Temple. For his Reformed brethren to arrive at such conclusions meant that they were interpreting the Old Testament promises to Israel literally, at least some of them. This shift from replacement theology to a national future for Israel resulted in a decline in persecution of the Jews in many Reformed communities and increased efforts in Jewish evangelism. Schlissel notes:

the change in the fortune of the Jews in Western civilization can be traced, not to humanism, but to the Reformed faith. The rediscovery of Scripture brought a rekindling of the Biblical conviction that God had not, in fact, fully nor finally rejected His people.8

Yet Schlissel is concerned that his Reformed brethren are abandoning this future national hope for Israel as they currently reassert a strong view of replacement theology.

Whatever views were maintained as to Israel's political restoration, their spiritual future was simply a given in Reformed circles. Ironically, this sure and certain hope is not a truth kept burning brightly in many Christian Reformed Churches today, . . . In fact, their future conversion aside, the Jews' very existence is rarely referred to today, and even then it is not with much grace or balance.9

This extract establishes that the "spiritualized" notion of "Israel" in Rom 11:25, 26, was known to and rejected by the body of Dutch expositors. . . .

Since the turn of the century, most modern Dutch Reformed, following Kuyper and Bavinck, reject this historic position.10

Reconstructionist Schlissel seems to think that part of the reason why many of his Reformed brethren are returning to replacement theology is due to their reaction to the strong emphasis of a future for Israel as a nation found within dispensational premillennialism. Yet, dispensational premillennialism developed within the Reformed tradition as many began to consistently take all the Old Testament promises that were yet fulfilled for Israel as still valid for a future Jewish nation. Schlissel complains:

just a century ago all classes of Reformed interpreters held to the certainty of the future conversion of Israel as a nation. How they have come, to a frightening extent, to depart from their historic positions regarding the certainty of Israel's future conversion is not our subject here. . . . the hope of the future conversion of the Jews became closely linked, at the turn of the century and beyond, with Premillennial Dispensationalism, an eschatological heresy. This, necessarily, one might say, soon became bound up and confused with Zionism. Christians waxed loud about the return of the Jews to Israel being a portent that the Second Coming is high. It thus seemed impossible, for many, to distinguish between the spiritual hope of Israel and their political "hope." Many Reformed, therefore, abandoned both.11

Historical Development

As it should be, the nature of Israel's future became the watershed issue in biblical interpretation which caused a polarization of positions that we find today. As Schlissel noted, "all classes of Reformed interpreters held to the certainty of the future conversion of Israel as a nation." Today most Reformed interpreters do not hold such a view. Why? Early in the systemization of any theological position the issues are undeveloped and less clear than later when the consistency of various positions are worked out. Thus it is natural for the mature understanding of any theological issue to lead to polarization of viewpoints as a result of interaction and debate between positions. The earlier Reformed position to which Schlissel refers included a blend of some Old Testament passages that were taken literally (i.e., those teaching a future conversion of Israel as a nation) and some that were not (i.e., details of Israel's place of dominance during a future period of history). On the one hand, as time passed, those who stressed a literal understanding of Israel from the Old Testament became much more consistent in applying such an approach to all passages relating to Israel's destiny. On the other hand, those who thought literalism was taken too far retreated from whatever degree of literalness they did have and argued that the church fulfills Israel's promises, thus there was no need for a national Israel in the future. Further, non-literal interpretation was viewed as the tool with which liberals denied the essentials of the faith. Thus, by World War II dispensationalism had come to virtually dominate evangelicals who saw literal interpretation of the Bible as a primary support for orthodoxy.

After World War II many of the battles between fundamentalism and liberalism began to wane. Such an environment allowed for less stigma attached to non literal interpretation within conservative circles. Thus, by the '70s, not having learned the lessons of history, we began to see the revival of many prophetic views that were returning to blends of literal and spiritual interpretation. As conservative postmillennialism has risen from near extinction in recent years, it did not return to the mixed hermeneutics of 100 years ago, which Schlissel longs for, but instead, it has been wedded with preterism in hopes that it can combat the logic of dispensational futurism. Schlissel's Reformed brethren do not appear to be concerned that, in preterism, they have revived a brand of eschatology which includes one of the most hard-core forms of replacement theology. And they do not appear convinced or concerned that replacement theology has a history of producing theological anti-Semitism when mixed with the right social and political conditions. In fact, Schlissel himself preached a sermon a few years ago in which he identified James Jordan, a Reformed preterist, as advancing an anti-Semitic view of Bible prophecy.12

Conclusion

What one believes about the future of Israel is of utmost importance to one's understanding of the Bible. I believe, without a shadow of doubt, that Old Testament promises made to national Israel will literally be fulfilled in the future. This means the Bible teaches that God will return the Jews to their land before the tribulation begins (Isa. 11:11-12:6; Ezek. 20:33-44; 22:17-22; Zeph. 2:1-3). This has been accomplished and the stage is set as a result of the current existence of the modern state of Israel. The Bible also indicates that before Israel enters into her time of national blessing she must first pass through the fire of the tribulation (Deut. 4:30; Jer. 30:5-9; Dan. 12:1; Zeph. 1:14-18). Even though the horrors of the Holocaust under Hitler were of an unimaginable magnitude, the Bible teaches that a time of even greater trial awaits Israel during the tribulation. Anti-Semitism will reach new heights, this time global in scope, in which two-thirds of world Jewry will be killed (Zech. 13:7-9; Rev. 12). Through this time God will protect His remnant so that before His second advent "all Israel will be saved" (Rom. 11:36). In fact, the second coming will include the purpose of God's physical rescue of Israel from world persecution during Armageddon (Dan. 12:1; Zech. 12-14; Matt. 24:29-31; Rev. 19:11-21).

If national Israel is a historical "has been," then all of this is obviously wrong. However, the Bible says she has a future and world events will revolve around that tiny nation at the center of the earth. The world's focus already is upon Israel. God has preserved His people for a reason and it is not all bad. In spite of the fact that history is progressing along the lines of God's ordained pattern for Israel, we see the revival of replacement theology within conservative circles that will no doubt be used in the future to fuel the fires of anti-Semitism, as it has in the past. Your view of the future of national Israel is not just an academic exercise. I beg everyone influenced by this article to cast your allegiance with the literal Word of God lest we be found fighting against God and His Sovereign plan. W

Endnotes

1 For a definition of terms and labels used in this article consult the Glossary in Thomas Ice & Timothy Demy, editors, When the Trumpet Sounds: Today's Foremost Authorities Speak Out on End-Time Controversies (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1995), pp. 473-4.

2 David Chilton, Paradise Restored (Tyler, TX: Reconstruction Press, 1985), p. 224. 3 Ibid.

4 Rousas John Rushdoony, Thy Kingdom Come: Studies in Daniel and Revelation (Fairfax, VA: Thoburn Press, 1970), p. 82.

5 Ibid., p. 134.

6 Steve Schlissel & David Brown, Hal Lindsey & The Restoration of the Jews (Edmonton, Canada: Still Waters Revival Books, 1990), p. 47. For a survey of the history of anti-Semitism in the Church see David Rausch, Building Bridges: Understanding Jews and Judaism (Chicago: Moody Press, 1988), pp. 87-171. 7Ibid., pp. 47-48. 8Ibid., p. 59. 9Ibid., p. 42. 10Ibid., pp. 49-50. 11Ibid., pp. 39-40.

12 Steve Schlissel, The Jews/Jordan & Jerusalem, an audio tape obtained from Still Waters Revival Books, 4710 - 37A Ave., Edmonton, AB T6L 3T5, CANADA.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: antisemitism; church; dispensationalism; eschatology; israel; postmillennialism; premillennialism; preterism; replacement
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 701-740 next last
Schlissel goes on to show that the Reformed church of Europe, after the Reformation, widely adopted the belief that God's future plan for Israel includes a national restoration of Israel. Many even taught that Israel would one day rebuild her Temple. For his Reformed brethren to arrive at such conclusions meant that they were interpreting the Old Testament promises to Israel literally, at least some of them. This shift from replacement theology to a national future for Israel resulted in a decline in persecution of the Jews in many Reformed communities and increased efforts in Jewish evangelism. Schlissel notes:

the change in the fortune of the Jews in Western civilization can be traced, not to humanism, but to the Reformed faith. The rediscovery of Scripture brought a rekindling of the Biblical conviction that God had not, in fact, fully nor finally rejected His people.8

1 posted on 09/01/2006 5:32:21 AM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: blue-duncan; Quix; P-Marlowe; Buggman; Corin Stormhands; Alamo-Girl; Revelation 911; BibChr
Ping to an interesting review.

I'm fascinated that Ice is saying that the dutch reformers supported the biblical view of a future for national Israel.

I'd like to track that down.

2 posted on 09/01/2006 5:34:19 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Ping to an interesting review.

I suspect a coming flame fest from the antidispensationalreplacementarianists.

3 posted on 09/01/2006 6:37:03 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Salem; F15Eagle; Esther Ruth; RoadTest

You might find this interesting!


4 posted on 09/01/2006 6:51:29 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (Mid East Ceasefire = Israel ceases but her enemies fire)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: American in Israel; unionblue83; ZULU

Ping of interest!


5 posted on 09/01/2006 6:52:04 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (Mid East Ceasefire = Israel ceases but her enemies fire)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Convert from ECUSA
Soon....
Then shall two be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Praying for Mr. Schlissel, saw him at home school conferences years ago, talked briefly, main speaker, he was great, boy does he loves the Lord much!

(But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up!)

Well, since no one is jumping on this thread, thought I'd add something.

(When WE all get to heaven what a day of rejoicing that we be...!)
6 posted on 09/01/2006 7:21:27 AM PDT by Esther Ruth (Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep. The LORD is thy keeper!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: xzins; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Alex Murphy
What do you do with a future National Israel in the Bible?

The title should have been: What do you do with something that cannot be demonstrated conclusively from the Bible without positing raw assertions?

Tommy (Mr. "Replacement theology" == anti-Semitism) Ice's biases and politics are showing.

Read Supersessional Orthodoxy; Zionistic Sadism by Ken Gentry

In Ice's book Ready to Rebuild there is a picture of him, with delight in his eyes, sitting down with Gershon Salomon, the Jewish founder and head of the Temple Mount Faithful. Now as a good Christian, I am sure Tommy warned Salomon of the soon coming holocaustal judgment on Israel. And I am sure as a Christian pastor he presented Salomon the Gospel of Jesus Christ, pointing out that He and He alone is "the way, the truth, and the life." Of course, I just recently purchased some ocean front property in Arizona, too.

7 posted on 09/01/2006 7:22:31 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe; xzins; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Alex Murphy
I suspect a coming flame fest from the antidispensationalreplacementarianists.

Perhaps the flames will be not so intense when you guys start posting articles from Saucy, Blaising and Boch, rather than Tommy Ice. They clearly represent the future of dispensational thinking. The "old school" guys are a dying breed. You could tell they were feeling the heat when they decide to play the "race card", i.e., traditional supersessionism == anti-Semitism.

How long can Ice, LaHaye, and Linday keep up this mantra of "1948 is eschatologically significant" and non-dispensationalists are racists line? It's getting very old, and dispensationalists of all stripes are coming to realize that fact.

I'm not holding my breath, but it would be refreshing.

8 posted on 09/01/2006 7:32:40 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Three possible events that had far more impact on the life of Christianity than our (occasionally bad) manners towards the invited guests who spurned the invitation and crucified the inviter! And have since then been hardened in petulent unbelief by nearly two millenia of denial.

I thank God for my friends who are still enmeshed in soul-damning cults (mormonism, islam, judaism) even as I pray for their conversion and salvation. In fact, the founding pastor of my church was raised Jewish, then came to the ongoing party as a young man, and has been busily inviting others to join the fun ever since.

9 posted on 09/01/2006 7:48:03 AM PDT by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: topcat54; P-Marlowe; Buggman; blue-duncan; Alamo-Girl; Quix

It is historically true that as a rule antisemitism did not come out of churches that accepted a future national Israel.

Martin Luther became rabidly antisemitic, but I'm not sure of his eschatology. If he was a typical amillennialist, then replacing "Israel" with "church" was not something that would have BLOCKED this very negative direction of his later years.

Now, there are shoes for both feet. One can play the "replacemetarian/antisemitism" card or one can play the "dispensationalism can only rely on its antisemitic bias" card.

Or we can say that the Christians need to look at each passage and make a decision from grammar, context, and history whether it refers to "national Israel" or "spiritual Israel."

The Bible and its proper interpretation is the issue.


10 posted on 09/01/2006 7:51:33 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
How long can Ice, LaHaye, and Lindsey keep up this mantra of "1948 is eschatologically significant" and non-dispensationalists are racists line?

Matthew 24:34 reads "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till ALL these things be fulfilled." Which generation? Hal Lindsey had us believe it was our generation!

Back when Hal Lindsay wrote The Late Great Planet Earth, Israel's foundation (1948) was still recent history. Lindsey wrote that a "biblical generation" at that time was forty years in length. Thus, with the reestablishment of the Nation of Israel, the expectation was that the Tribulation and Christ's Return would occur within a biblical generation, IE within Lindsey's readers' lifetimes (1988 occurring forty years - one generation - after the reestablishment of Israel). Now two more decades have passed, the EU has grown beyond 10 members, the Soviet Bear has fallen, and last time I looked, I don't have a UPC bar-code tattooed on my forehead (or a techno-ID chip implanted in hand) and every car I see on the highway still has a driver. Either someone forgot to set the alarm on that prophetic clock, or Lindsey, LaHaye & co. just kept hitting the snooze button, hoping we'd forget about 1988 coming and going.

Fast forward to 2006. It's been almost sixty years since the foundation of Israel. Assuming the Rapture hits tomorrow, and the dispensational eschatology holds up, you still need to tack on an additional seven years to account for the Tribulation period before a pretrib Second Coming. Thus, either the biblical length of a "generation" is greater than 58 years and growing (assuming pretrib rapture, 65+ years if posttrib), or the old-school dispensationalists have badly misjudged which prophetic time period we're living in, and thus badly misunderstood Matthew 24:34.

In case nobody was looking, Lindsey's already spinning his failures into (future) successes by changing the way he calculates the Second Coming. Rather than begin calculations from the (formerly significant) 1948 (re)founding of Israel, Lindsey now starts with a young earth scenario, with the Earth being formed around 4000 b.c. His new math system now tells us a day is a thousand years, and thus he'd have us believe we're somewhere between 992 years away ("eight years into") and 1004 years away ("four years before") from the Second Coming (yes, his math is that precise). By date-setting the "Second Coming" date to about 1000 years in the future, it's now far ahead enough for Lindsey to avoid dying of embarrassment, should he miscalculate the date again.

In other words, Lindsey knows he was wrong about the 1988 date, but doesn't want to admit it in print. I wonder if Tommy Ice got the memo?

11 posted on 09/01/2006 7:54:47 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: TomSmedley
Judaism is not a cult. As distortions of other religions, mormonism and islam could be seen as cults. Judaism, on the other hand, pre-dated Christianity and is a valid religion in its own right. That doesn't even begin to address that it was instituted by God Himself.

I'm sure the author is talking about the murder, mayhem, and prejudice directed toward Jews....pogroms, holocausts, anti-Jewish laws, etc.

Those things you mention: justification, evangelization, and spirituality are not "practical" issues within Christianity. They are directly addressed, biblical, doctrinal issues. These are things that MUST be taught.

Persecution of Jews, on the other hand, is not a Christian doctrine.

12 posted on 09/01/2006 7:57:59 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy; P-Marlowe
Hal Lindsey had us believe it was our generation!

I never got that.

I always got that it "COULD" be our generation.

Still could be. Jesus said to "Watch for you don't know when the Son of Man comes."

You'd better fault Jesus, too.

13 posted on 09/01/2006 8:03:47 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: xzins; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Alex Murphy
I'm fascinated that Ice is saying that the dutch reformers supported the biblical view of a future for national Israel.

Ice is no historian. Look at how he twists the words of Schlissel, who wrote:

Whatever views were maintained as to Israel's political restoration, their spiritual future was simply a given in Reformed circles.
Note how Ice's commentary distorts these words which are ambiguous as to a future national entity for Israel:
This extract establishes that the "spiritualized" notion of "Israel" in Rom 11:25, 26, was known to and rejected by the body of Dutch expositors.
Huh?? His extract does no such thing. Ice's survey of Dutch thinking amounts to some misplaced quotes from Schlissel.

The Dutch rejected the dispensational, premil notion of a future millennial kingdom after Christ's return with Israel at the center. The Dutch rejected any form of theology where nations were separated along racial lines for salvific purposes.

Ice also comments:

Yet Schlissel is concerned that his Reformed brethren are abandoning this future national hope for Israel as they currently reassert a strong view of replacement theology.
His continued reference to "this future national hope for Israel" make it appear that Schlissel, et al support the disnepsatioanlist theories. They do not. Their views on future Israel is radically different from the classic and neo-dispensational ones.

There have always been Reformed theologians (aka supersessionist "anti-Semites") of all strips that have held to a future for the Jews, whether national or otherwise. That is nothing new. In fact, the Westminster Larger Catechism calls out specifically for the conversion of the Jews.

What Ice wants you to believe is that there exists a latent appreciation for dispensational-style Jewish nationalism in Dutch (Reformed) thinking. Such is not the case. Reformed theologians have consistently affirmed a coming of Christ before the millennial, not after. They rejected all forms of "chilaism", the notion of a millennium on earth with Christ physically present and Jews in charge.

For your added entertainment, here is a portion from the Belgic Confession, one of the documents that makes up the "Three Forms of Unity" commonly used as confessions within the Dutch Reformed community:

Finally, we believe, according to the word of God, that when the time predestined by God and unknown to all creatures arrives, and the number of the Elect will be completed, our Lord Jesus Christ is going to return from heaven, bodily and visibly, just as He once ascended there, decorated with consummate Majesty, and He will reveal Himself as a judge of the living and of the dead, having set this old world ablaze with fire and flame in order that He would purify it. Then truly all creatures, so as with men also with women and infants, as many as have thereupon lived, back from the beginning up unto the end of the world, will appear in the presence of this consummate Judge, certainly called forth by the sound of both the Archangel and by the trumpet of God. For all of the previously dead will then rise up from the ground and, by the Spirit, the soul of every one of them, in turn, will be united and joined together with their own body in which they had lived. Again, those who will be living up unto that ultimate day will be transformed in but a moment and a blink of the eye, clearly from corruption into an incorruptible nature. (Belgic Confession, Article 37)
Within the context of the phrase "the number of the Elect will be completed" comes the understanding of whatever is included in Romans 11 wrt the Jewish and gentile converts to Christ. While there may be a massive conversion of Jewish people prior to Christ's return (which I happen to believe as a postmillennialist), nothing requires a wholesale return of Jewish people to the Middle East region in order for this to be fulfilled. There certainly is nothing about Jewish nationalism in any of the Dutch confessions.
14 posted on 09/01/2006 8:05:32 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: xzins; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Alex Murphy; TomSmedley
It is historically true that as a rule antisemitism did not come out of churches that accepted a future national Israel.

Please supply us all with a list of these churches, and references from their confessions as to their views on "a future national Israel".

This should be interesting.

15 posted on 09/01/2006 8:09:36 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: topcat54

I think you're pretty much culture bound in your request. Being from a church that has a confession that might mention such a thing, you forget that many churches are not nearly so formal. Some don't write lengthy confessions at all.


16 posted on 09/01/2006 8:13:39 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: xzins; TomSmedley
Judaism is not a cult. As distortions of other religions, mormonism and islam could be seen as cults.

Which form of Judaism -- hasidic, orthodox, traditional, conservative, reform, reconstructionist, humanistic/secular -- represents real Judaism today?

Would you say that reconstructionist or reform Jews observe the same central tenets as orthodox Jews?

That doesn't even begin to address that it was instituted by God Himself.

Which of these forms of Judaism did God institute?

Persecution of Jews, on the other hand, is not a Christian doctrine.

Can we not universalize this to say persecution of anyone is not a Christian doctrine? By singling out Jewish people you make it into a specialized "hate crime" category.

17 posted on 09/01/2006 8:18:19 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: xzins

Excellent article. Thanks much.


18 posted on 09/01/2006 8:30:56 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe

Let it not come from our side. Sigh.

Holland is fully capable of carrying on a flame fest all on their own. Let them bear the responsibility alone, if they so insist.


19 posted on 09/01/2006 8:32:32 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Esther Ruth

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!


20 posted on 09/01/2006 8:33:26 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: topcat54

Now as a good Christian, I am sure Tommy warned Salomon of the soon coming holocaustal judgment on Israel. And I am sure as a Christian pastor he presented Salomon the Gospel of Jesus Christ, pointing out that He and He alone is "the way, the truth, and the life."
= = = =

Actually, all the dispensational believers I know with access to such people on tours to Israel . . . essentially, do exactly that.


21 posted on 09/01/2006 8:35:28 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy
In case nobody was looking, Lindsey's already spinning his failures into (future) successes by changing the way he calculates the Second Coming. Rather than begin calculations from the (formerly significant) 1948 (re)founding of Israel, Lindsey now starts with a young earth scenario, with the Earth being formed around 4000 b.c. His new math system now tells us a day is a thousand years, and thus he'd have us believe we're somewhere between 992 years away ("eight years into") and 1004 years away ("four years before") from the Second Coming (yes, his math is that precise). By date-setting the "Second Coming" date to about 1000 years in the future, it's now far ahead enough for Lindsey to avoid dying of embarrassment, should he miscalculate the date again.

Lindsey recycles books and wives as each ages out. I don't know how many times he's re-written his 70's stuff, changing the casts while leaving the plotlines. I have read that he's on marriage number four.

22 posted on 09/01/2006 8:36:42 AM PDT by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: topcat54

How long can Ice, LaHaye, and Linday keep up this mantra of "1948 is eschatologically significant" and non-dispensationalists are racists line? It's getting very old, and dispensationalists of all stripes are coming to realize that fact.
= = = =

I suspect it will be around as long as it describes objective reality so well.

Of course, The Great Tribulation and Armageddon will overtake a lot of other priorities quite soon enough.


23 posted on 09/01/2006 8:37:08 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Convert from ECUSA

Very interesting indeed. I do believe that God has a plan for Israel and the rest of us as well. That said, I will await His decision as to when this will occur and be known.


24 posted on 09/01/2006 8:38:49 AM PDT by unionblue83 (Duty is ours; consequences are God's. -- Stonewall Jackson.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: xzins; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Alex Murphy; TomSmedley
I think you're pretty much culture bound in your request. Being from a church that has a confession that might mention such a thing, you forget that many churches are not nearly so formal. Some don't write lengthy confessions at all.

Then I'm surprised you would make such a assertion as being "historically true". How far back does your view of history go?

If you can't point to a document or something that can be scrutinized, what are you basing your assertion on?

25 posted on 09/01/2006 8:44:06 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: xzins
You seem to be arguing with Jesus on this point. The rabbinc/talmudic Judaism of his day exalted human say-so above God's Word to such an extent that it rendered God's Word null and void on point after point. During the donnybrook recorded in John 5 Jesus said,Like Mormonism, or the Unification Church, or David Berg's "Family of Love," rabbinic Judaism exalted human teaching above divine revelation, and offered an alternate, works-based plan of salvation -- just do what the rabbis/Joe Smith/Moses David/Sun Myung Moon say. It can be argued that the Judaism of our Lord's day had soaked up the Roman idea of salvation by law.

Now Jesus Himself called the religion of his day a cultic distortion of what God had in mind, a distortion so severe as to fatally obscure God's revelation for man. But I suppose you know better ...

26 posted on 09/01/2006 8:45:55 AM PDT by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Actually, the Great Tribulation that came upon the generation Jesus spoke to, the Jewish War, ratified His prophetic warnings to those who heard Him, and His status as Messiah.
27 posted on 09/01/2006 8:50:14 AM PDT by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: xzins

Continue to be Jewish.


28 posted on 09/01/2006 8:52:02 AM PDT by onedoug
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy; xzins; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; OrthodoxPresbyterian; TomSmedley
In case nobody was looking, Lindsey's already spinning his failures into (future) successes by changing the way he calculates the Second Coming. Rather than begin calculations from the (formerly significant) 1948 (re)founding of Israel, Lindsey now starts with a young earth scenario, with the Earth being formed around 4000 b.c.

If you hadn't noticed, this is similar to the approach to interpreting the Bible that got another famous datesetter, Harold Camping, in trouble. See his book 1994?.

29 posted on 09/01/2006 8:59:38 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
If you hadn't noticed, this is similar to the approach to interpreting the Bible that got another famous datesetter, Harold Camping, in trouble. See his book 1994?.

Edgar Wisenaunt, author of the famous 88 reasons and its 1989 sequel at least had the excuse of being a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. The callousness with which Hal Lindsey discards his wives, however, should be a clamorous alarm bell to anyone tempted to regard him as a credible Christian, let alone teacher.

30 posted on 09/01/2006 9:05:17 AM PDT by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: xzins; topcat54; Dr. Eckleburg; Buggman
What do you do with a future National Israel in the Bible?

Do? Do? By the Grace of Perseverance unto the Saints, continue to be a Member of God's Israel, that's what I intend to "DO".

The very Question is Absurd. According to the Scriptures... once I have accepted Christ, I am "a Jew, which is one inwardly" (Rom. 2:29), a Member of "the Circumcision" (Phil. 3:3), "a Child and Seed of Abraham" (Gal. 3:7, 29), a Citizen of the "Jerusalem which is above" and one of the "children of the promise" (Gal. 4:24-29); and, in fact, "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16).

And one thing that I do NOT intend to "DO", as a Member of "The Israel of God", is preach the Un-Christian Heresy of Thomas Ice, who falsely declares (against all Scripture and Tradition, throughout the History of the Christian Church everywhere):

That is Utter HERESY, pure and simple; as bad or indeed worse than the most extreme "Salvation = Faith + Belief in Calvinism" error of even the most Hardshell Hyper-Calvinist there ever was.

"What one believes about the future of Israel (by which the heretic Ice means the ethnic future of racial Jews) is of the GREATEST AND HIGHEST importance to one's understanding of the Bible"... OH, REALLY?!

More important that the Doctrine of the Trinity? More important than the Doctrine of Creationism? More important than the Doctrine of Substitutionary Salvation, itself? And are we now the understand that the Reformational Doctrine of the Perspicuity of Scripture is conditional upon one's obeisance to Thomas Ice's heretical Racialist dogma of Dispensationalism??

The Dispensationalist defenders of the Heretic Thomas Ice may quickly scramble and say, oh no, of course he didn't really mean that, maybe a bit hyperbolic, perhaps just a slight exaggeration on his part... surely you don't dare to hold a leading Dispensationalist Theologian to account for what he actually said, do you?!

Of course I dare. Where his treasure is, there is his heart; and out of the abundance of his heart, his heresy speaketh.

Proving the Heresy of Dispensationalism is simple.
You just let leading Dispensationalist Theologians talk.

Best, OP

31 posted on 09/01/2006 9:06:01 AM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TomSmedley
#31. Ping.

Mea Culpa for the oversight.

32 posted on 09/01/2006 9:10:06 AM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: xzins
I'm wondering what you make of one Arminian/Wesleyan author's view of dispensationalism.
False prophets attempting to predict the outcome of both world wars hurt dispensationalism's credibility. they were always confident that Bible prophecy was being fulfilled right before their eyes, but the subsequent events always forced them to continually re-evaluate what was being fulfilled. Bible scholars had either grown silent or abandoned the viewpoint after the mid 1960s. Then there was a revival of interest when Hal Lindsey published the best selling book of the 1970s: The Late Great Planet Earth. In it Lindsey declared that "no self-respecting scholar who looks at world conditions and the accelerating decline of Christian influence today is a post-millennialist." Lindsey wold have saved himself much embarrassment if he had interpreted world conditions in light of Scripture, instead of trying to read into Scripture his understanding of current events. Lindsey helped bury dispensationalism with his unfulfilled predictions and there were plenty of post-millennialists around to attend the funeral!

...

Although the Church was supposed to be in ruins, it experienced the greatest revival since Pentecost during the end of the 20th century. Peter Wagner declared, "We are in the springtime of missions." In 1900 the ratio of non-Christians to Christians worldwide was 27:1. In 1989 that same ratio was 7:1. Although there were repeated attempts to connect the year 2000 with something cataclysmic, "wolf" had been cried too many times. Nothing could revive the old theory and it passed away leaving a host of red-faced prophecy expects and a huge surplus of obsolete books and charts.

The Obituary of Dispensationalism: 1830-1988 by Vic Reasoner


33 posted on 09/01/2006 9:16:07 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: topcat54; xzins; Quix; Buggman; blue-duncan
How long can Ice, LaHaye, and Linday keep up this mantra of "1948 is eschatologically significant"...

Probably for as long as you Antidispensationalreconstructionalreplacementarianists continue to claim that AD70 is eschatologically significant.

34 posted on 09/01/2006 9:21:57 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

I'm feeling a little left out. ;-)


36 posted on 09/01/2006 9:25:46 AM PDT by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: TomSmedley
Lindsey recycles books and wives as each ages out. I don't know how many times he's re-written his 70's stuff, changing the casts while leaving the plotlines. I have read that he's on marriage number four.

And how many who post against him are on marriage number two or more?

37 posted on 09/01/2006 9:27:13 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe

Probably for as long as you Antidispensationalreconstructionalreplacementarianists continue to claim that AD70 is eschatologically significant.
= = = =

I think you are entirely right about the

ContrarianAntidispensationalreconstructionalreplacementarianists!


38 posted on 09/01/2006 9:27:31 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe

Replacement theology and its view that Israel is finished in history nationally has been responsible for producing theological anti-Semitism in the church. History records that such a theology, when combined with the right social and political climate, has produced and allowed anti-Semitism to flourish.
= = = =

Reads like a very objective, brief description of accurate historical facts, to me.


39 posted on 09/01/2006 9:29:29 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: xzins; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Persecution of Jews, on the other hand, is not a Christian doctrine.

Absolutely true. But persecution of the Jews is no more a part of supercessionism than it is of dispensationalism.

As regards the history of Jewish persecution in the Middle Ages, let's not pretend that was theological. It was wholly political and economic. Thus, Mr. Ice is disingenuous to blame a Christian theology for those atrocities.

40 posted on 09/01/2006 9:29:56 AM PDT by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

Quit calling seemingly every belief which you do not share a "heresy." The term - like the term "liar" - incites flame wars and discourages others from posting at all.


41 posted on 09/01/2006 9:33:26 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; xzins; topcat54; Lord_Calvinus; HarleyD
Essays like this are purely political. I'm confounded that some Christians think otherwise.

That does not make the politics of it wrong. But it's all politics and only politics.

To try to insert it into our theology is duplicitous and does disservice to Christ.

The very Question is Absurd. According to the Scriptures... once I have accepted Christ, I am "a Jew, which is one inwardly" (Rom. 2:29), a Member of "the Circumcision" (Phil. 3:3), "a Child and Seed of Abraham" (Gal. 3:7, 29), a Citizen of the "Jerusalem which is above" and one of the "children of the promise" (Gal. 4:24-29); and, in fact, "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16).

AMEN!

42 posted on 09/01/2006 9:33:55 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe; OrthodoxPresbyterian
And how many who post against him are on marriage number two or more?

Nope.

Multiple remarriages are enough to disqualify Lindsay as a preacher. He is doubly disqualified from being any kind of preacher or Bible expert because he made false predictions in the 1970's - and will not own up to them. Guess that's what happens when you give seminary degrees to riverboat pilots (one of DTS's biggest mistakes ever).

43 posted on 09/01/2006 9:36:11 AM PDT by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Religion Moderator

This very thread is flamebait.


44 posted on 09/01/2006 9:36:43 AM PDT by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe; Alex Murphy; xzins; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; OrthodoxPresbyterian; TomSmedley
Probably for as long as you Antidispensationalreconstructionalreplacementarianists continue to claim that AD70 is eschatologically significant.

Well this is interesting. Preterists can go through a laundry list of items taken directly from Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 along with the majority of the book of Revelation and map them onto events leading up to and including AD70 (except to the satisfaction of an artificial literalist). The most significant is the absolute destruction of the temple putting to end all old covenant scarifies, as well as the vengeance" meted out against apostate Israel for "killing the prophets" and "the son of the landowner".

There is nothing in 1948 that maps directly to anything in the Bible, especially in the New Testament, the most definitive source for an understanding of the "end times".

The best futurists can do is to take some Old Testament verses out of context while ignoring others (e.g., that national repentance precedes national restoration)), apply some "semi-literal" interpretive method, close their eyes, make a wish, and see 1948.

Oh, wait, then when their "generation" does not work itself out exactly they need to revise their chronology, even after we have been repeatedly told by their "best and brightest" how we can precisely know that 40 years is a generation and, thus, figure out when the secret rapture will happen.

Did I leave anything out?

45 posted on 09/01/2006 9:37:46 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: jude24
The thread to which this one responds was inflammatory. Threads which become toxic may be locked - but this thread is a long way from toxic.
46 posted on 09/01/2006 9:40:36 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: topcat54; xzins; Quix; Buggman; blue-duncan
Preterists can go through a laundry list of items taken directly from Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 along with the majority of the book of Revelation and map them onto events leading up to and including AD70..

And their entire theology hinges upon an impossible to prove assumption that the Book of Revelation was written before AD70; an assumption with no basis in fact. As was shown on a prior thread, all the empirical evidence points to Revelation being penned no earlier than AD90.

47 posted on 09/01/2006 9:45:38 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: Religion Moderator
Replacement theology and its view that Israel is finished in history nationally has been responsible for producing theological anti-Semitism in the church. History records that such a theology, when combined with the right social and political climate, has produced and allowed anti-Semitism to flourish. This was a point made by Hal Lindsey in The Road to Holocaust, to which reconstructionists cried foul.

This is not only erroneous, it is inflammatory. It deserves every curse in the book.

48 posted on 09/01/2006 9:47:28 AM PDT by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe

Thanks.

Sometimes facts are such welcome things.

Inconvenient for tidy little boxed biases but still . . . welcome to the wise.


49 posted on 09/01/2006 9:47:55 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: topcat54; P-Marlowe; Quix; TomSmedley

Judaism has its different flavors through the years. Today is no exception.

One might mention sadduccess, pharisees, essenes, qumran community, etc., etc.

Judaism, like Christianity, is "denominational."


50 posted on 09/01/2006 9:54:30 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 701-740 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson