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To: Alex Murphy; King Prout; Ichneumon; Junior
8. We want civil government to punish evil doers according to biblical sanctions. We want all moral laws of the Old Testament to be enforced according to biblical standards.

Some may object: Isn't this harsh? Isn't this barbaric? No, in fact it will lead to greater liberty for the godly. We want the ungodly punished according to God's Law-Word because it is what God prescribes. We have been conditioned according to a humanistic worldview to reject Old Testament law as "barbaric" or "outdated." God's law is not harsh, barbaric nor antiquated, because God is neither harsh, barbaric nor antiquated!

Chr*stianity that has to fall back on "old testament law" is no longer chr*stianity, at least of any genuine historical kind. Such chr*stians are to be congratulated for seeing the weakness in their religion and encouraged to continue thinking along those lines.

One of life's greatest ironies is that the "old testament" is more associated with chr*stianity than with Judaism, which has been relegated to the "enlightenment's" "canary in the mine shaft." In fact "old testament law" (ie, the Torah) IS Judaism, not chr*stianity. It's amazing that people can look at the Jewish People living in the Land of Israel and not make the connection. But then, "enlightenment" types feel more comfortable attacking chr*stianity than Judaism (which they look on as some sort of pluralist religion), so branding Judaism "chr*stian" makes it safe to attack it.

I am extremely uncomfortable with attacks on islam based simply on the idea that there is a true religion which all are bound to acknowledge. Only a person who denies the possibility of objective religious certainty would object to the idea of the True Religion winning out in the end, but a lot of so-called "religious people" are so permeated with enlightenment thought that they haven't even noticed that they have drifted into the "nobody knows for sure" school of religion, ie, that all religion is based on human subjective speculation and G-d has never spoken to man.

In an earlier thread today I quoted a Noachide web site (http://www.noahide.com/newsletter/news76.htm) against the notion that there is no objectively knowable religious truth, and specifically against the notion that Judaism is opposed to religious certainty. I will repeat that quote here for the benefit of those reading this thread:

Since the word "evangelism" specifically refers to Christian missionizing, the proper term for recruitment of gentiles to Torah religion would be "proselytizing." And proselytize Judaism does, even though the vast majority of Jews today absolutely don't know that.

The Hebrew Scriptures (Deut. 20) refer to the Torah rules regarding conquest of gentile lands and cities by Jewish armies. In verses 10-11, the chapter commands Jews to negotiate the gentile city's surrender; if the gentiles accept, they are to be reduced to permanently subjugated status. As explained in the oral traditions that accompany the text, such surrender must include acceptance of the Noahide Laws as their new religion.

Then, in verses 12-15, the passage tells Jews what to do if the gentiles don't accept the terms of surrender (including dropping their religion for the Noahide Laws). It commands the Jews to conquer the city, kill all males, seize the women and children as perpetual slaves, and plunder the city's material possessions. And verse 15 explicitly declares this applies to gentile cities anywhere in the world, not just near Israel's borders. In other words, the Bible potentially applies this to Rome, London, New York, and Los Angeles.

That's proselytizing by the sword, quite literally. And it's a primary Scriptural basis for the rules of Jewish Law regarding forced proselytizing of gentiles (to be Hasidic Gentiles, not Jews) as stated in the comprehensive work of Jewish Law written by Maimonides, the Mishneh Torah:

* In the volume entitled "Laws of Kings and their Wars," Maimonides states (8:10): "But [a gentile] who does not wish [to become a Jew and accept the more complex Jewish Law], we do not force him to accept [the full] Torah and commandments. Thus was Moses our Teacher commanded from the Mouth of the Al-mighty to force all inhabitants of the world to accept [instead] the commandments commanded to the children of Noah; and anyone who will not accept is executed."

* In the next chapter (9:2), Maimonides continues by stating that we are commanded actively to prevent gentiles even from carrying out certain non-punishable actions connected with idolatry — such as erecting a pagan ritual tree. This would include any Christmas tree, in public or private.

* Maimonides also states (10:9) that gentiles are forbidden to observe the Sabbath or to establish non-Torah religious holidays. "We do not allow them to innovate religious practice or to invent commandments for themselves from their own opinions; rather, either [the gentile] should be a convert to Judaism and accept all the commandments, or he should stand in his own Torah [of the Noahide Laws] and neither add to nor subtract from it. And if he delved into [forbidden parts of] Torah, or rested on a 'Sabbath,' or innovated any religious matter, we beat him and we punish him…" This is the action required to prevent gentiles from celebrating Christmas or Easter, for example, or from establishing Sunday (or Saturday) as a day of rest, or from inventing and practicing such ceremonies as baptism or communion.

But how are Jews to carry out these rules in a place like the United States, where government authorities prevent us from shutting down Christian or Muslim practices? That answer was provided by the Tosafos Yom Tov in his commentary on the section of the Talmud (or Mishnah, to be precise) known as "Pirkei Avos" ("Chapters of the Forefathers"). There (3:14) he quotes the teachings of Rabbi Akiva on this issue, who showed that the Torah commands Jews to proselytize gentiles by force of persuasion, especially when proselytizing by the sword is not physically possible. We are commanded to teach gentiles the Noahide Laws and their implications — including not to erect Christmas trees or crosses, not to celebrate such holidays, etc. — and to use aggressive verbal persuasion and pressure to convert gentiles away from Buddhism, Christianity, or Islam to becoming Hasidic Gentiles.

In our own times, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, one of the great scholars of Torah of our generation, argued vociferously and constantly (from about 1980 until his stroke in 1992) for Jews to make this proselytizing of gentiles our top priority, literally.

And there's no question that such verbal persuasion is likewise a duty of Hasidic Gentiles, who must also go forth and pull other gentiles out of false religions.

Read it and weep. Oh, and "but that sounds like the muzzies!" is not a valid criticism.

9 posted on 09/04/2006 12:49:14 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator ('Ani Ledodi Vedodi Li)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

But how are Jews to carry out these rules in a place like the United States, where government authorities prevent us from shutting down Christian or Muslim practices? That answer was provided ... the Torah commands Jews to proselytize gentiles by force of persuasion, especially when proselytizing by the sword is not physically possible. We are commanded to teach gentiles the Noahide Laws and their implications — including not to erect Christmas trees or crosses, not to celebrate such holidays, etc. — and to use aggressive verbal persuasion and pressure to convert gentiles away from Buddhism, Christianity, or Islam to becoming Hasidic Gentiles.

In our own times, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, one of the great scholars of Torah of our generation, argued vociferously and constantly (from about 1980 until his stroke in 1992) for Jews to make this proselytizing of gentiles our top priority, literally.

And there's no question that such verbal persuasion is likewise a duty of Hasidic Gentiles, who must also go forth and pull other gentiles out of false religions.

Read it and weep. Oh, and "but that sounds like the muzzies!" is not a valid criticism.

Oh brother.
10 posted on 09/04/2006 1:04:55 PM PDT by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: your mind)
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