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A Popular Strategy For Church Growth Splits Congregants
Wall Street Journal ^ | 09/05/2006 | Suzanne Sataline

Posted on 09/05/2006 2:24:04 PM PDT by Terriergal

IUKA, Miss. -- In April, 150 members of Iuka Baptist Church voted to kick Charles Jones off the deacons' board. The punishment followed weeks of complaints by Mr. Jones and his friends that the pastor was following the teachings of the Rev. Rick Warren, the best-selling author and church-growth guru. After the vote, about 40 other members quit the church to support Mr. Jones.

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: apostates; beyondreligion; christvscause; churchgrowth; ecumenical; letusprey; ministersofsatan; moneygrubbers; passtheloot; purpose; purposedriven; religionisobsolete; rickwarren; saddleback; transitioning; transitions; warren
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Finally the article has come out. We've been waiting for this for months. Thank you, Suzanne, excellent job!
1 posted on 09/05/2006 2:24:07 PM PDT by Terriergal
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To: Terriergal; Alex Murphy; marshmallow
The article is quite devastating.

The most salient points: It reveals that the Warren organization, as a matter of official policy coming from the top of the ministry:

(1) Advocates that pastors introduce "purpose-driven" activities as secretly as possible and advises them to conceal their actual agenda as long as necessary to forestall criticism.

(2) Instructs pastors to identify congregants who are not happy about "transitioning" their church to be "helped to leave."

(3) When disaffected congregants leave, they instruct pastors to find out what the excluded congregant's new congregation is and call that congregation's pastor to tell them to watch out for that congregant and to make sure that congregant is not allowed a leadership role in his new congregation.

Absolutely evil, sickening, unChristian stuff.

2 posted on 09/05/2006 2:30:56 PM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: Terriergal; All

CAN ANYONE POST THIS ARTICLE,THE LINK IS FOR SUSCRIBERS.

GODSPEED!


3 posted on 09/05/2006 2:31:21 PM PDT by alpha-8-25-02 ("SAVED BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE")
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To: marshmallow

I pinged you because this "purpose-driven" stuff is doing the same thing to evangelical congregations that RENEW did to Catholic parishes, except that they seem to be even more effective than RENEW in finding host churches and sucking them dry.


4 posted on 09/05/2006 2:33:58 PM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: Terriergal
Some pastors learn how to make their churches purpose-driven through training workshops. Speakers at Church Transitions Inc., a Waxhaw, N.C., nonprofit that works closely with Mr. Warren's church, stress that the transition will be rough. At a seminar outside of Austin, Texas, in April, the Revs. Roddy Clyde and Glen Sartain advised 80 audience members to trust very few people with their plans. "All the forces of hell are going to come at you when you wake up that church," said Mr. Sartain, who has taught the material at Mr. Warren's Saddleback Church.

During a session titled "Dealing with Opposition," Mr. Clyde recommended that the pastor speak to critical members, then help them leave if they don't stop objecting. Then when those congregants join a new church, Mr. Clyde instructed, pastors should call their new minister and suggest that the congregants be barred from any leadership role.

This is the passage that floored me.

6 posted on 09/05/2006 2:37:24 PM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: alpha-8-25-02

we aren't allowed to per the WSJournal.


7 posted on 09/05/2006 2:37:59 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: TommyDale; Admin Moderator

actually I don't think we're allowed to do that, are we? WSJ is one that doesn't allow us to post anything but an excerpt if I'm not mistaken. :-\ I just don't want J & J Robinson to get in trouble.


8 posted on 09/05/2006 2:41:45 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: wideawake

I hadn't heard about RENEW (not surprising since I'm not catholic) -- elaborate if you would.


9 posted on 09/05/2006 2:42:28 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: Terriergal; Admin Moderator

Oh, I didn't know that. My apologies.


10 posted on 09/05/2006 2:43:35 PM PDT by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: wideawake
This is the passage that floored me

Me too. I got goosebumps and the hair on the back of my neck stood on end. That's pretty unbelieveable but then these people have had me agog at every turn with their passive agressive underhanded and unethical behavior.

11 posted on 09/05/2006 2:43:53 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: Terriergal
Speakers at Church Transitions Inc., a Waxhaw, N.C., nonprofit that works closely with Mr. Warren's church, stress that the transition will be rough. At a seminar outside of Austin, Texas, in April, the Revs. Roddy Clyde and Glen Sartain advised 80 audience members to trust very few people with their plans. "All the forces of hell are going to come at you when you wake up that church," said Mr. Sartain, who has taught the material at Mr. Warren's Saddleback Church.

During a session titled "Dealing with Opposition," Mr. Clyde recommended that the pastor speak to critical members, then help them leave if they don't stop objecting. Then when those congregants join a new church, Mr. Clyde instructed, pastors should call their new minister and suggest that the congregants be barred from any leadership role.

"There are moments when you've got to play hardball," said the Rev. Dan Southerland, Church Transitions' president, in an interview. "You cannot transition a church...and placate every whiny Christian along the way."


Wow. That is evil. Where the Hell do they get off telling the new church that the congregant shouldn't be allowed in leadership?
12 posted on 09/05/2006 2:47:23 PM PDT by ConservativeMind
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To: Terriergal

Am I allowed to do this?

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB115741786888753373-lMyQjAxMDE2NTA3NTQwMTU3Wj.html


13 posted on 09/05/2006 2:47:39 PM PDT by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: TommyDale

THANKYOU!


14 posted on 09/05/2006 2:48:20 PM PDT by alpha-8-25-02 ("SAVED BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE")
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To: Terriergal
RENEW was/is a movement among Catholic apostates for spreading liberal, touchyfeely theological notions among the Catholic laity.

They secure permission from bishops and pastors to send a RENEW team to parishes to hold seminars where they promote their views, then they work to change the liturgy and worship of the local parish and focus the content of the liturgy on their prime concerns of "oppenness, compassion and healing" and do their best to push out any refrences to sin, personal responsibility, death, judgment, heaven and hell.

They then raise money in special collections so they can move on to the next parish.

15 posted on 09/05/2006 2:50:08 PM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: Terriergal
This is the kind of thing that Warren cheerleaders need to address directly.

This stuff is from the horses' mouth, directly quoted in one of America's few truly respected national dailies.

16 posted on 09/05/2006 2:52:36 PM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake

sounds exactly the same. While I don't agree with Catholic doctrine, I don't advocate dumping doctrinal differences just for the sake of 'unity.' People have to actually examine the differences and reject what they believe (scripturally) to be false, not just overlook things or refuse to deal with them.


17 posted on 09/05/2006 2:52:40 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: Terriergal
People have to actually examine the differences and reject what they believe (scripturally) to be false, not just overlook things or refuse to deal with them.

There are those on FR who will call this statement "blasphemy."

Just a heads-up.

18 posted on 09/05/2006 2:54:20 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (the war on poverty should include health club memberships for the morbidly poor)
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To: wideawake

Warren says he "doesn't approve of efforts to oust members" -- yeah but he wrote a glowing endorsement of Church Transitions Inc's book "Transitioning" which does just that! He talks out of both sides of his mouth and I think that he doesn't know whether he's on foot or on horseback half the time.

I will REPEAT the more I SEE Warren himself on TV the more I think he's probably a delightful person to be around. But that isn't what makes right in God's eyes.


19 posted on 09/05/2006 2:54:39 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: freedumb2003

why do you say that? If you can't in good conscience endorse a church's doctrine, you shouldn't belong to it. Even if I grant that church X's doctrine is true, if you belong to it but secretly reject some crucial doctrine, it won't save you. God knows what you believe.


20 posted on 09/05/2006 2:56:07 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: Terriergal; All

MR.WARREN HAD BENIFITED OUR COMMUNITY,BECAUSE WHEN LOCAL FUNDAMENTAL CHURCHES START HIS PROGRAM,THEIR EX-MEMBERS JOIN US.


21 posted on 09/05/2006 2:56:17 PM PDT by alpha-8-25-02 ("SAVED BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE")
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To: Terriergal
Warren says he "doesn't approve of efforts to oust members"

Hard to convince people of that, Rick, especially with what you wrote in "The Purpose Driven Church" and on your own website about dealing with "resisters".

22 posted on 09/05/2006 2:58:45 PM PDT by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: Terriergal
why do you say that? If you can't in good conscience endorse a church's doctrine, you shouldn't belong to it.

You misunderstand my post. I said there are SOME on FR who will find your post blasphemy (those whose small minds think THEIRS is the only "valid" interpretation).

I am not one of them but I am warning you they (sadly) are here.

23 posted on 09/05/2006 3:00:15 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (the war on poverty should include health club memberships for the morbidly poor)
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To: alpha-8-25-02

LOL! I have stopped speaking negatively about Warren, because he is doing enough to hurt his own reputation by endorsing the Global Warming theory, the New World Order and all the other liberal agenda thinking.


24 posted on 09/05/2006 3:03:26 PM PDT by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: wideawake
Rev Warren has some good ideas. As with any 'system' you should read carefully, check it against the Bible (in context), and then apply where practical.

What concerns me is the church 'management consultants'.
Those folks just scare me.
I thought the word 'paradigm' was officially dead.

What's next? 6-Sigma programs for churches - I can just see it:
only black belts can be elders,
green to teach Sunday school,
yellow to volunteer in the nursery...

I wish more pastors, elders, and members would understand the difference between 'Church Growth' and 'Kingdom Growth'. Are you reaching the lost? Or are you just creating the latest greatest 'cool' church where believers can roost for a season?
25 posted on 09/05/2006 3:05:35 PM PDT by BlueNgold (Feed the Tree .....)
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To: Terriergal
You don't agree with Catholic doctrine and I don't agree with Protestant doctrine.

It is useless to pretend they are the same or reconciliable. That's clear.

Warren quotes Catholics in his Purpose-Driven Life and many conservative Protestants take that as a sign that Warren is somehow "working for Rome."

In reality, Warren is working for himself and is trying to pull in as many paying customers as possible.

If a Catholic priest offered to pay for one of his seminars, he'd send a guy in right away, I'm sure. In fact, I guarantee that this has likely happened already.

What concerns me about Warren is that the main byproduct of his wholescale commoditization of Christ is that he is eroding what true doctrine is left among evangelicals.

A conservative Catholic will say: "Well, Protestants may be wrong about a lot of things - but the conservative ones at least believe in the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Atonement, Original Sin, the necessity of grace for salvation, the inerrancy of the Scriptures and other foundational Catholic teachings, so there is hope yet."

But I see an evangelicalism post-Warren in which the Trinity and Incarnation are hazily understood and not essential, where sin and atonement and grace are replaced by misunderstandings and apologies and self-actualization, where the Scriptures are replaced by The Message.

26 posted on 09/05/2006 3:07:25 PM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: alpha-8-25-02

Read this carefully. Please note that the members who left and "took" money with them merely changed churches and pay their tithing elsewhere now. But they make it look as if they actually STOLE the money!

From Warrren's own website:

http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=8232


27 posted on 09/05/2006 3:07:28 PM PDT by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: alpha-8-25-02

Read this carefully. Please note that the members who left and "took" money with them merely changed churches and pay their tithing elsewhere now. But they make it look as if they actually STOLE the money!

From Warrren's own website:

http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=8232


28 posted on 09/05/2006 3:07:30 PM PDT by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: BlueNgold
"What concerns me is the church 'management consultants'. Those folks just scare me. I thought the word 'paradigm' was officially dead."

I heard of a consultant firm that consulted with a church, and the entire staff of that church resigned, leaving that pastor up the old creek without a paddle. Oops!

29 posted on 09/05/2006 3:09:57 PM PDT by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: BlueNgold
Rev Warren has some good ideas.

Name one and let's discuss it.

30 posted on 09/05/2006 3:10:17 PM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: All; TommyDale

Apprising ministries has apparently paid to have a reprint on their site:

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/09/veneration_gap.html


31 posted on 09/05/2006 3:28:47 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: TommyDale

I dunno. It costs almost $200 to get permission to send the link in an email! (according to the rules on the site)


32 posted on 09/05/2006 3:29:31 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: alpha-8-25-02

lol


33 posted on 09/05/2006 3:30:28 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: drstevej; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

STICK WITH GOD'S PLAN!

2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.

2 Timothy 3:14
But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,

2 Timothy 3:15
and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

2 Timothy 3:17
that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;

2 Timothy 4:4
and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

2 Timothy 4:5
But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.


34 posted on 09/05/2006 3:32:03 PM PDT by alpha-8-25-02 ("SAVED BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE")
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To: freedumb2003
Well we all must think we're right or we wouldn't be saying it. However you can't force someone to change just because you say so. If the change doesn't come because someone truly believes it, it's not worth it. In my ex church they actually encouraged people to go against their consciences. As long as they keep it quiet. So they weren't so concerned about the condition of your heart as they were about your tithe money or other outward forms of support.

That would be the EVANGELICAL COVENANT CHURCH denomination.

35 posted on 09/05/2006 3:32:23 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: TommyDale

yeah... I know that people say you shouldn't interfere when your opponent is sinking his own ship, but... I feel incumbent upon me to warn other believers. And I don't consider Warren exactly an "enemy" but a useful idiot for the enemy of our souls. And becoming more useful to him as time goes on.


36 posted on 09/05/2006 3:33:54 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: BlueNgold

I agree. There are a few practical advice things in his books you could use. But it's very few. Mixed with a lot of 'nuthin' that doesn't encourage anyone to 'repent and believe' in the one true triune God. Just some guy who's all loving and fluffy and is named Jesus for all the reader knows.


37 posted on 09/05/2006 3:35:35 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: wideawake; Terriergal; alpha-8-25-02; Gamecock; 1000 silverlings

We just got a new pastor and his first action was to begin a small group ministry on "The Purpose Driven Life."

After 20 years, we are looking for a new church.


38 posted on 09/05/2006 3:37:02 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Ah no!


39 posted on 09/05/2006 3:38:20 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: wideawake
I agree!

Warren is somehow "working for Rome."

Well at least those factions that want the same thing he wants "Unity at all costs."

I can totally respect your point of view.

40 posted on 09/05/2006 3:38:40 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: TommyDale
I heard of a consultant firm that consulted with a church, and the entire staff of that church resigned, leaving that pastor up the old creek without a paddle. Oops!

They were probably just Christian whiners. /sarcasm

41 posted on 09/05/2006 3:39:38 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: wideawake
Name one and let's discuss it.

Having handicap access?

42 posted on 09/05/2006 3:40:05 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: alpha-8-25-02

love ya bro! and you're a marine too. Still still my beating heart! ;-)


43 posted on 09/05/2006 3:41:26 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Good Biblical churches are getting harder and harder to find. I remember Bob DeWaay talking about a lady he kept in touch with for a while - she hunted around in her location in New Jersey for FIVE YEARS and finally gave up.

We have a church about 30 miles away that hasn't been too affected by the purpose driven stuff. We explained our problems to the pastor there and he understood immediately where we were coming from although he hadn't researched the problems with PDL too much. He and his wife are definitely starting to take notice of these things, and I wish we were closer so we could be more involved.


44 posted on 09/05/2006 3:44:08 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: 1000 silverlings

How did this pastor get chosen?


45 posted on 09/05/2006 3:44:17 PM PDT by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: Terriergal; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; logos; topcat54; OrthodoxPresbyterian
In theory, this is why a Presbyterian form of church government is supposed to be optimum.

Of course, men can and do foul up most anything. But in theory, this couldn't have happened in a Presbyterian church which would be accountable to the Presbytery.

Were you a member, Terriergal, and now without a church? If so, God will lead you to a more righteous home. My family is on the same quest. We're looking into the PCA or OPC.

46 posted on 09/05/2006 3:47:14 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: TommyDale; Dr. Eckleburg

The doc has to answer that one


47 posted on 09/05/2006 3:47:19 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
But in theory, this couldn't have happened in a Presbyterian church which would be accountable to the Presbytery.

The only problem is, in many synodical and similar structures it's being pushed by the highest levels of leadership. That's why I'm under the impression that the presbytery system isn't much of a safeguard... there is no safeguard trusting in any 'system' -- sad as it is I feel like the only way is to go it alone, I've been crapped on so many times by other people in leadership.

48 posted on 09/05/2006 3:52:31 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

don't worry I only FEEL that way, I won't forever 'go it alone.' I'll keep listening and looking. But I'm not going to obsess about it.


49 posted on 09/05/2006 3:53:10 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

IN addition -- in denominations like the Evangelical Covenant which purports to be 'congregational' they are still pushing it from the leadership and they will use their 'synodical' or 'presbytery' power (of position) over people even though their polity is formally NOT synodical or presbyterian.


50 posted on 09/05/2006 3:54:44 PM PDT by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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