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Rosh Hashanah and the Second Coming
The B'rit Chadasha Pages | 9/20/06 | Michael D. Bugg

Posted on 09/20/2006 10:14:32 AM PDT by Buggman

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To: topcat54; William Terrell; 1000 silverlings; DAVEY CROCKETT; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; ladyinred
Well, not exactly. The only infallible record we have of Jesus's name is of the Greek Iesous. In fact no one knows for sure if His Hebrew/Aramaic name was Yehoshua or Yeshua or something else.

It's true that there is some debate about the pronunciation of Yeshua's Name, as the Greek Iesous can be used for either of two names. It is now generally accepted that Y'hoshua (Yoshua or Yehoshua, usually rendered Joshua in English) was the early Biblical pronunciation, but that the late Biblical name Yeshua (Jeshua) had come to replace it. Why? Simply because it was in the late Biblical period that the practice arose of not pronouncing the Tetragrammaton or even its shortened version Yah. Since pronouncing the name Y'hoshua classically (Yah-ho-shu-ah) would require pronouncing the Ineffible, Yeshua was the variant in common use during the Second Temple period.

In addition, the existant Aramaic NTs that we have, the Old Syriac and Peshitta, use the equivalent Aramaic letters of yod-shin-vav-ayin, not yod-heh-vav-shin-ayin as we would expect if Yeshua's Name were commonly rendered Y'hoshua.

Mind you, if someone wants to use the older form of the name, I certainly have no objection. Yeshua was always understood to be exactly equivalent to Y'hoshua anyway. But that's why I believe that "Yeshua" is indeed the correct pronunciation.

Wikipedia has a nice series of articles on the issue. Start here and then hit all the links to get all sides of the debate.

This being the case there is no reason to believe that, for example, the apostle Paul -- a fluent Greek-speaker -- felt is necessary to transliterate the name of Jesus to Aramaic for his Greek-speaking audience and disciples.

Partially true, though there is some evidence that even many Greek believers insisted on pronouncing it correctly. (I'll have to see if I can dig up the article for you sometime.) But in any case, that's why I don't object to anyone saying Jesus or get caught up in the Sacred Name nonsense--if the Apostles had no problem with transliterating Yeshua's name to keep it from sounding like a girl's name to their Greek audience (by ending in an "ah" instead of a male "us"), then why should I object to my fellow believers doing the same?

But by the same time, why should my fellow believers get their undies in a wad that I deliberately choose to use Yeshua's original name out of respect and emphasis of His Jewishness as a matter of personal custom?

Obviously Paul and the other NT writers were not as hung up on the Hebrew name as folks in the modern day "Jewish roots" movement. They are just trying to be "more Jewish" than Paul. Or is it "Saul"?

They were also dealing with an entirely different set of circumstances than we are: They didn't have to deal with people mistaking Jewish men for Calvinists.

51 posted on 09/20/2006 2:22:47 PM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: topcat54; 1000 silverlings; DAVEY CROCKETT; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; ladyinred; Alex Murphy
Patterns aside, I assume an examination of the NT will be the majority of your analysis since it authoritively intreprets all the OT.

You assume incorrectly. The New Testament is only 20% or so of Scripture--why then should it be the majority of any exegesis?

The error you make, TC, is in misapplying the rule, "Interpret the OT in the light of the New." You start in the NT, come to your conclusions, and then either ignore vast swaths of the Tanakh or twist them in order to fit the conclusions you've come to based on less than 20% of the available data.

The approach I take is two sided: "Interpret the Tanakh in the light of the New Covenant/Interpret the New Covenant in the light of the Tanakh." When Sha'ul, for example, quotes Malachi 1:1-3, I don't just assume that God hated Esau the individual, I go look up the quote--and lo and behold, it turns out that neither the prophet nor the apostle is dealing with the subject of an individual's salvation at all, but with the question of Israel's national election.

Likewise, when one gets to Hebrews, if one simply assumes (and one has to go beyond the actual text to do so) that Hebrews says that sacrifice and offering are done away with and must not be offered, that puts Hebrews in conflict with the Torah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the very actions of the Apostles themselves (e.g., Acts 21:20ff). That being the case, we would have to reject this annonymous book as being canonical at all, not disregard the words and deeds of four other Biblical sources!

But as it turns out, when one reads Scripture both ways, seeking to reconcile both sides instead of coming to a conclusion based on a handful of verses in a single book and disregarding all other sources, we find that Hebrews, while certainly explaining the typology behind much of the Torah most certainly does not do away with it. In like vein, it explains Yeshua's fulfillment of the typeology of the Yom Kippur sacrifices, but does not do so in a way that precludes a future fulfillment--and as I will show when I actually post the article on Yom Kippur, there are several elements of that Appointed Time which are expressly not fulfilled in the First Coming.

Now stop whining about my "vague references." They are vague because I'm not going to go into detail until I'm ready to present that argument in full.

So why don't you leave aside discussion of Yom Kippur for when I do, and discuss with us the topic of this thread instead?

52 posted on 09/20/2006 2:42:59 PM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Jeremiah Jr
"La shanah tova tikatevu," to you and yours!

And to you and yours, my brother.

53 posted on 09/20/2006 2:43:40 PM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Quix
Without doing a detailed study, it is probable that

1. 2/3 the population believes that "psychic powers" exist; 2. half the population believes in demons and ghosts; 3. 40% of people believe that "magnetic energy" in bracelets promotes good health; 4. 75% of pre-6-year olds believe in Santa Clause; 5. 90% of Christians believe that their faith guarantees they will go to heaven.

The amusing thing is that reality always trumps belief.

54 posted on 09/20/2006 2:45:47 PM PDT by thomaswest
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To: Buggman
The article is in English presumably for an English language readership.

55 posted on 09/20/2006 2:45:57 PM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: William Terrell
Yep. And you'll notice that where Hebrew terms are employed, I make a point of defining them. My point actually is clarity, believe it or not.
56 posted on 09/20/2006 2:48:45 PM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Quix

Is that the same Joel Rosenburg who wrote The Guardians of the Flame series of novels? I loved those when I was a kid.


57 posted on 09/20/2006 3:01:12 PM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Buggman
It seems that of the 144,000, there are already 21,311 reserved for "The Righteous Among Nations". These are gentiles that are given this recognition by the highest Jewish authorities in Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_Among_the_Nations

It is interesting that in this table only 2 are listed as from the United States. It was in the news that just last month a third was added, Martha and Rev. Waitstill Sharp, a Unitarian couple from Wellesley, MA. In fact, all the USA recipients were Unitarians.

It is strange that no American Catholics or Protestants have received this honor.

58 posted on 09/20/2006 3:18:29 PM PDT by thomaswest
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To: Buggman

Thank you for your in depth article. It was enjoyable to read.....and I learned much. Also enjoyed the later link to "Yeshua" at Wikipedia.


59 posted on 09/20/2006 3:30:54 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: Quix

THANKS FOR THE STATISTICS. QUITE INTERESTING.

JM


60 posted on 09/20/2006 4:26:03 PM PDT by JockoManning (http://www.etpv.org/whatsnew.html)
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To: thomaswest

And the reality of Israel being a nation again, using Hebrew as Scriptures predicted amidst a host of other specifics about the end times in the same era . . .

THOSE REALITIES ARE IMPRESSIVE . . .

to those with ears to hear and eyes to see.


61 posted on 09/20/2006 4:31:07 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Buggman

". . . why don't you. . . "
= = =

No need to get into that bag of worms! LOL


62 posted on 09/20/2006 4:32:23 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: thomaswest

AND, the person who has had an EXPERIENCE with THE LIVING GOD is never at the mercy of someone who merely has an argument.


63 posted on 09/20/2006 4:34:11 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Buggman
My friend, I have one question:

Among the rabbis, the shofar is often associated with the Coming of the Messiah and the Resurrection of the Dead as well.

Quite frankly, what do we as Christians have to learn from Christ-rejecting rabbis? Their entire religion is rooted in the Talmud, a re-apprasial of the Old Testament done in the wake of Christianity.

64 posted on 09/20/2006 4:49:25 PM PDT by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: jude24
Quite frankly, what do we as Christians have to learn from Christ-rejecting rabbis? Their entire religion is rooted in the Talmud, a re-apprasial of the Old Testament done in the wake of Christianity.

Hmm . . . good question. I guess we should also toss out the histories of Josephus, since he was one of those Christ-rejecting rabbis. And the annals of Tacitus, since he was a Christ-rejecting pagan. Whoops, there goes almost all of ancient history.

The Talmud is a collection of legal codes (the Mishneh) and debates among the rabbis (the Gemara). It preserves a lot of cultural context, Jewish idioms, and traditions which actually go back to the first century and can give new insight to the NT. When you read a work such as Alfred Edersheim's The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, where do you think he's getting his information from? The Talmud and other rabbinical sources. He's hardly the only Christian commentator to make careful use of rabbinic tradition either: I submit to you the commentaries of Keil & Delitzsch; Jonathan Lightfoot; Jamieson, Fausset, & Brown; David H. Stern and a host of others. I daresay that you'd be shocked at how many of your commentaries you'd have to throw out if you were truly zealous about rejecting all rabbinical material.

Obviously, the Talmud and other rabbinical sorces cannot be taken as sacred writ--but they do provide useful insight when studied carefully, especially the earlier traditions. The later traditions get pretty superstitious--but then, so do the medieval traditions of the Church, so we're certainly in no position to complain.

I use rabbinical tradition as a historical resource--and when studying God's Appointed Times, it's a vitally necessary resource, for the Church's only commentaries on the Feasts are either dependant on Jewish sources or do nothing more than come up with half-baked arguments not to observe them. If we paid no heed to rabbinic tradition, we would not know, for example, about the afikomen in the Passover dinner, one of the clearest symbols of the Messiah Yeshua to be found anywhere.

Moreover, I become particularly interested when the rabbis and the Apostles are in complete agreement on a matter. Why do you find it objectionable that I point out that the rabbis universally agree with Sha'ul that the Resurrection will occur at the sound of a shofar on the Feast of Trumpets?

Indeed, why do you find it objectionable to use Jewish resources to learn more about the culture, practices, and words of a Jewish Messiah?

65 posted on 09/20/2006 5:49:07 PM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Buggman
It has seemed strange to me when I come across this type article that the name Jesus isn't used. The article is published to the general public, the majority of whom know Jesus as named.

I'm not an uneducated man, but I had to guess the name used referred to Jesus from context, when I first encounted it (relatively recently).

You can use any name you like. I am puzzled as to why you would use a comparatively obscure name instead of the one known instantly by most people, since the language used is the one aimed at just those people.

66 posted on 09/20/2006 6:11:03 PM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: William Terrell
Are you objecting at the mere use of the Name Yeshua, or is it simply that I didn't define it up front? If the latter, I can make a point of that in the future if you feel it is an actual point of confusion (so far nobody else seems to have been confused, but I'll grant that most of the comments have been by Freepers who are used to my custom, and I suppose some lurkers might have been confused).

If the former, sorry, but that's not changing. I've already explained to you why I prefer Yeshua to Jesus, and I don't understand why you don't understand my preference in this matter.

67 posted on 09/20/2006 6:26:10 PM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Buggman; jude24; 1000 silverlings; DAVEY CROCKETT; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; ladyinred; ...
Hmm . . . good question. I guess we should also toss out the histories of Josephus, since he was one of those Christ-rejecting rabbis. And the annals of Tacitus, since he was a Christ-rejecting pagan. Whoops, there goes almost all of ancient history.

No moral equivalency here.

It was not the expressed intention of Josephus to deny the reality of the coming of Israel's Christos in the person of Iesous of Nazareth.

The rabbis, in their Talmud and other writing, have done that very things. They have so perverted the word of God by masking the reality of Iesous as He is found there.

As Alfred Edersheim wrote, "He who has thirsted and quenched his thirst at the living fount of Christ's Teaching, can never again stoop to seek drink at the broken cisterns of Rabbinism." (The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah)

68 posted on 09/20/2006 6:27:55 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: Buggman; William Terrell; 1000 silverlings; DAVEY CROCKETT; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; ladyinred
But by the same time, why should my fellow believers get their undies in a wad that I deliberately choose to use Yeshua's original name out of respect and emphasis of His Jewishness as a matter of personal custom?

Because the "respect" is misplaced and without warrant from the Word of God. Nowhere in the Bible are we told to keep Jesus "original Aramaic" name out of respect. If that were the case the God would have been more circumspect in actually recording the Aramaic form of that name for us in His infallible Word.

He did not. As you have admitted there is dispute about the original spelling. Not one with the authority of "thus saith the Lord" can tell us for sure.

This reminds me of the Roman Catholic doctrine of works of supererogation. In this case it is a form of "holiness" beyond what God asks for in His word. Jesus attacked the false pietists of His day.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

69 posted on 09/20/2006 7:05:43 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54; jude24; 1000 silverlings; DAVEY CROCKETT; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; ladyinred
I notice that you left out Tacitus in trying to avoid the "moral equivalency" there, TC. You know, the Tacitus who referred to the beliefs of the Christians as "abominations" and "a most mischievous superstition."

In any case, what then of rabbis like Hillel and Shimmei and Simeon the Just, who died before Yeshua's ministry? Should they be tarred with the same brush as those who in far latter centuries wrote bitter recriminations against a "Jesus" whose followers were persecuting them? What about Gamaliel, the teacher of Sha'ul, who spoke on behalf of the Apostles Kefa (Peter) and Yochanan (John)? What about Nachdimon ben Gurion, who is most likely the Biblical Nicodemus? Should we reject both of them as well? What about the Mishneh, which was compiled in the second century, but which contains material from much, much earlier? Should we cast away the insight it gives us into first-century Judean society?

What then do we do with perfectly valid data about what the Feastdays meant to and how they were celebrated by the first century Jews which included Yeshua and all of the Apostles? Well, if we were great fools, so full of our pride that we thought we couldn't possibly learn anything new about a Jewish Messiah through (gasp) Jewish sources, I suppose we might throw the baby out with the bathwater.

For my part, I'll go down the road that many commentators (see my previous post to Jude) have gone down before, and humble myself enough to learn something new once in a while.

70 posted on 09/20/2006 7:16:22 PM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Buggman; topcat54
In any case, what then of rabbis like Hillel and Shimmei and Simeon the Just, who died before Yeshua's ministry?...What about Gamaliel, the teacher of Sha'ul, who spoke on behalf of the Apostles Kefa (Peter) and Yochanan (John)? What about Nachdimon ben Gurion, who is most likely the Biblical Nicodemus?

I'm cool with utilizing these sources. I'm also alright with using the Mishnah and Talmud for the limited purposes of figuring out what First Century Judaism thought.

I asked my question, admittedly a bit roughly, knowing you'd give a good answer, even if I don't agree with it. You did not disappoint, my friend.

My concern is, however, that reactionary Judaism has little to teach us of any exegetical value. I will stipulate it may have some valuable insights into First Century Judaism, however. To use those insights to exegete the Old Testament, however, is fallacious.

71 posted on 09/20/2006 7:24:56 PM PDT by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: Buggman
I guess we should also toss out the histories of Josephus, since he was one of those Christ-rejecting rabbis. And the annals of Tacitus, since he was a Christ-rejecting pagan.

Do you used Josephus and Tacitus for historical background, or exegesis? I see the two as significantly different, if sometimes interrelated.

Indeed, why do you find it objectionable to use Jewish resources to learn more about the culture, practices, and words of a Jewish Messiah?

Perhaps an overreaction towards the speculations using Jewish culture, practices and words to eisegete readings into the text. There's probably a balance to be struck. I sure haven't found it yet.

72 posted on 09/20/2006 7:28:53 PM PDT by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: topcat54; William Terrell; 1000 silverlings; DAVEY CROCKETT; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; ladyinred
Because the "respect" is misplaced and without warrant from the Word of God. Nowhere in the Bible are we told to keep Jesus "original Aramaic" name out of respect.

Nowhere in the Bible are we told to call ourselves by the name of John Calvin either. And you misunderstand the direction of my respect in this instance: I am showing my respect for the Messiah's essential Jewishness by using His Jewish name. And that, of course, is what bugs you.

Not one with the authority of "thus saith the Lord" can tell us for sure.

No, but with the authority of "thus saith the Lord," I can tell you how it wasn't pronounced.

Jesus attacked the false pietists of His day.

He attacked those who in their supposed "piety" went around judging others on the basis of their extra-Biblical traditions. So far, you're the one in the seat of the pharisees here; I've judged no one.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Really? All things? "Think not that I am come to destroy the Torah, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Torah, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mat. 5:17-19)

So can we expect you to join us in keeping the command of the Torah to observe Yom Teruah this weekend? And will you be joining us on the Biblical Sabbath? No? Then don't get on me about keeping traditions and personal customs that aren't in conflict with all of God's commands.

73 posted on 09/20/2006 7:36:24 PM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Quix

Praise God! Maranatha, Jesus!


74 posted on 09/20/2006 9:43:14 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Buggman; DAVEY CROCKETT; Alamo-Girl; JockoManning; JustPiper; All

Yet something has been curiously absent from all this media coverage. American journalists aren't asking Ahmadinejad about his Shiite religious beliefs, his fascination with the coming of the Islamic Messiah known as the "Twelfth Imam" or the "Mahdi," his critique of President Bush's faith in Jesus Christ and encouragement of President Bush to convert to Islam, and how such beliefs are driving Iranian foreign policy. Time's cover story and exclusive print interview with Ahmadinejad never broached the subject of his eschatology (end times theology). Nor did Williams. Nor did Wallace. Nor does a just-released book, Confronting Iran, by British Iran expert Ali M. Ansari. Nor does almost any of the saturation coverage Ahmadinejad is receiving.

Journalists aren't typically shy about asking tough, probing questions about the religious views of world leaders. President Bush has been grilled at length about being an evangelical Christian and how this informs his foreign policy, particularly with regards to Israel and the Middle East. Clearly the Pope's views of Christianity and Islam are under fire at present. Why such hesitancy when it comes to the religious beliefs of a country that has called for the Jewish State to be wiped off the planet and who has questioned the historical veracity of the Holocaust?
= = = = =

To me, the only explanation for the above is that the puppet masters have decreed it of their MSM serfs.

Why would the puppet masters so decree? What is their strategy? What are their goals in doing so?

Are they WANTING the nut job to get nukes and attack the USA? Will that make it easier to scare the world's citizens into the global government? Do they want the nut job to get away with as much as possible as long as possible so that his 'creating chaos and bloodshed' efforts will be maximized?

What what what?


75 posted on 09/20/2006 11:45:01 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Buggman; All

To misunderstand the nature and threat of evil is to risk being blindsided by it. The hard, cold truth is that America was blindsided on 9/11, by an evil few saw coming. What’s more, those attacks were just the beginning of a long war against the forces of radical Islam. The most important question we face in the post-9/11 world is whether we have learned anything as a result of that terrible Tuesday. Do we truly understand that the forces of evil are preparing to strike us again when we least expect it? Do we truly grasp that the ultimate goal of the jihadists is not to terrorize us but to annihilate us? Are we willing to take any actions necessary to defend Western civilization from extinction? Or are we going to elevate peace over victory, retreat from the world, and simply hope for the best?

Ours is an age of kamikazes and snipers, anthrax and suicide bombers, ballistic missiles and nuclear warheads. While we no longer face Saddam Hussein, now we face a new Iranian regime threatening to wipe the U.S. and Israel off the map, a regime joining forces with three nuclear powers -- Russia, China and North Korea. All of this raises troubling new questions: What is coming next? How bad will it be? Where will I be when it happens? And am I ready to meet my Maker if, God forbid, I’m in the wrong place at the wrong time when evil strikes again?
= = = = =

What are our beloved alert FREEPER'S PREDICTIONS about the above?

What are the most plausible scenarios?


76 posted on 09/20/2006 11:47:20 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Buggman; DAVEY CROCKETT

* Remarkably, more Muslims have turned to faith in Jesus Christ since 9/11/01 than at any other time during human history. Literally millions of Muslims have converted to become followers of Jesus in radical Islamic strongholds such as Iran, Sudan, Iraq and across North Africa. What's more, they are not doing so because they are being forced to by the sword or by guns. They are turning to Christ despite the very real risk of violent persecution and even death by fellow Muslims. It's an amazing, untold story, and one I document in my new non-fiction book, EPICENTER: Why The Current Rumblings In The Middle East Will Change Your Future, which officially releases on Monday, September 18th.
= = = = =

This too must be a dramatic SIGN OF THE LAST DAYS. One the MSM has evidently been ordered to ignore. My understanding is that most such are converting because of supernatural visitations, visions, dreams wherein THE LIVING CHRIST present Himself, is presented by Holy Spirit. Some famly groups, tribal groups have multiple members having such dreams and visions within the same night or short time period. And, then, many times, particularly in remote areas; the individuals have to seek out someone who can tell them WHO IS THIS "JESUS" fellow? Where is this "Word of God?" How can I study more about Him?

Praise God. Those who earnestly seek HIM, SHALL FIND HIM, as Scripture declares.


77 posted on 09/20/2006 11:52:24 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: XeniaSt

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

Scripture and multiple REALITY confirmations will always win out over pontifical theological assumptions, manglings, twistings, rubber Bibles and the like.


78 posted on 09/20/2006 11:54:55 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Buggman

A parable . . .

Once upon an era in a land & time far away . . .

A tribal chieftan married the beautiful elder daughter of a neighboring chieftan.

They lived happily for a couple of decades when there was a war and the wife was captured and taken away captive.

The hubby was racked with grief for months. A visiting magistrate came through on a tour about that time and asserted very emphatically that the first wife had been killed in a fit of rage by her drunken captors.

After a couple of years, the beloved hubby packed his grief away and married the elder daughter of another neighboring chieftan on the opposite side of his tribal lands. They lived happily for 5 years.

Then a slave trader came through. Hubby authorized wife #2 to purchase a new household slave. After getting the new woman home and cleaned up, what a surprise, it was wife #1!

Hubby was beside himself with joy. Wife #2 was shocked and a bit taken aback but loved the hubby so much she decided she'd love what he loved including wife #1.

Both covenants were affirmed and the tribe was enriched happily ever after.


79 posted on 09/21/2006 12:03:46 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Lee N. Field
Half of all Republicans believe we are in the last days. Half of all women believe we are in the last days.

None of which makes it true.

An assertion, of course, which utterly fails to make the above false in any of its theological accuracy and implications.

Nearly half of all senior-citizens believe we are in the last days.

Because, of course, the world is obviously worse than it's ever been since at least the golden age when I was a kid.

An assertion, of course, which utterly fails to make the above false in any of its theological accuracy and implications.

Nearly 6 in 10 young people age 18 to 25 believe we are in the last days.

People aged 18 to 25 have notoriously good judgement, not to mention their broad prespective rooted in deep historical experience.

An assertion, of course, which utterly fails to make the above false in any of its theological accuracy and implications..

75% of African-Americans believe we are in the last days.

George Bush is President, we must be in the final days.

An assertion, of course, which utterly fails to make the above false in any of its theological accuracy and implications.

80 posted on 09/21/2006 12:16:02 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Buggman

We'll just have to accept that as one of my many personal quirks, and move on.
= = =

I happen to love you deeply quirks and all.

Some of the quirks are quite loveable, even.


81 posted on 09/21/2006 12:18:03 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: topcat54

I think "bogus"

hereon

tends to be like "beauty"

. . . in the eyes of the beholder.


82 posted on 09/21/2006 12:21:39 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Buggman
I love our Messiah Yeshua and you and what you have written here. I love that He imparts the strength of resurrection life/power to us to know and to declare and to defend in His Name. I delight in His Promises, all the festivals that are revelations of Him and fulfilled in Him who is the Head - even the Head of the New Year, so sweet to taste, as sweet as honey to my lips! I love that we experience the same sufferings as the Crucified Chosen One, and also the joy. He is Master, Teacher, Father: We are known! I love that He is coming on the clouds, even as He ascended in them, and that He is My Jewish Messiah, my Kinsman-Redeemer (I His Ruth!), my King and The King of Israel. They will see Him! And they will mourn and rejoice even as we have done. How I love His People and His Way! How I long to hear the blast and dance in the Father's House! How I pray Shalom! for Jerusalem with love beyond my means!

I've asked my Lord if I may speak Hebrew when I come into His House (; and to sing His Name so, all miraculous, all miraculous, all miraculous!

O tidings of the sweetness of the New Year rejoice your heart as you have kindled new rejoicing in mine in these reminders and declarations, in Truth, God's Son - O! what healing in the shelter of His Wings!

83 posted on 09/21/2006 12:21:52 AM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: Buggman

It's true that there is some debate about the pronunciation of Yeshua's Name, as the Greek Iesous can be used for either of two names. It is now generally accepted that Y'hoshua (Yoshua or Yehoshua, usually rendered Joshua in English) was the early Biblical pronunciation, but that the late Biblical name Yeshua (Jeshua) had come to replace it. Why? Simply because it was in the late Biblical period that the practice arose of not pronouncing the Tetragrammaton or even its shortened version Yah. Since pronouncing the name Y'hoshua classically (Yah-ho-shu-ah) would require pronouncing the Ineffible, Yeshua was the variant in common use during the Second Temple period.
= = = =

Works for me. Not that it's of any great theological consequence. But it's nice to see the evidence in such a logical, plausible way.

. . .

They were also dealing with an entirely different set of circumstances than we are: They didn't have to deal with people mistaking Jewish men for Calvinists.
= = = =

Nor did they have to deal with people mistaking straining at gnats and swallowing camels for theological truth.


84 posted on 09/21/2006 12:28:13 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Buggman

The error you make, TC, is in misapplying the rule, "Interpret the OT in the light of the New." You start in the NT, come to your conclusions, and then either ignore vast swaths of the Tanakh or twist them in order to fit the conclusions you've come to based on less than 20% of the available data.

= = = =

You put so well the truth I've been so troubled by for so long! LOL.


85 posted on 09/21/2006 12:29:48 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54; Buggman
God is on His throne, He's in control.

1Pe 3:14

But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

September 23 is my birthday and I expect to see a few more, lol.

A Christian believer will never be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

86 posted on 09/21/2006 12:46:22 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: thomaswest; DAVEY CROCKETT; Buggman

The amusing thing is that reality always trumps belief.
= = = =

Yes, I just LOVE the realities affirming this era as the last days . . .

1. Israel a nation again in a day
2. Israel beset about by Russia, China (going into Lebanon), Persia, Egypt,

3. The whole world plagued by Jerusalem as with a millstone about it's neck
4. The technological means for the Mark of The Beast as never before in history the last 2,000 years.

5. The technological means for the whole world to see the 2 witnesses' bodies lying in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 days as never before in history the last 2,000 years.
6. Manmade and other signs in the heavens of multiple types and dramatic degrees--unreported at all in the last 2,000 years.

7. Record numbers of muslims turning to Christ as never before in the last many centuries.
8. Shell Oil discovering the Mt of Olives is increasingly cocked to split as the Bible declares when Christ's foot touches . . . as never reported before in the last 2,000 years.

9. Knowledge expanding and spreading far and wide as never before in the last 2,000 years.
10. Travel to and fro speedily upon the earth as never before in the last 2,000 years.

11. A truly global government to encompass every people group and geographic area on the whole planet is looming as never before in recorded history.
12. The global government is setting the stage to conspire toward the total destruction of Israel as predicted . . . and to a massive degree involving the whole world as never before in the last 2,000 years.

13. The global government is setting the stage as predicted to eradicate all other religions but the worship of its leader as predicted and as never seen before in the last 2,000 years.
14. Moscow is allied with the Arab world to eradicate Israel as never before in the last 2,000 years.

15. Israel has discovered vast reserves of oil and gas on the brink of being brought into production as Biblically predicted and as never before in the last 2,000 years.
16. The Biblically predicted population reduction is now horribly and methodically prepared and planned on a massive scale by various means as never before in the last 2,000 years.

17. At least One King of the East--China--has the means to field the military power--certainly via nukes--and somewhat conceivably by manpower--to impact the Middle East as never before in the last 2,000 years.
18. The United States has begun to loosen it's LIFE GRIP on Israel as never before since Israel's creation in 1948 but in step with Biblical predictions that God alone will be Israel's final protector and defender.

19. The stage is set for Israel as well as the planet to accept a deceptive man of peace who will wage war with peace as Israel's awaited Messiah--but as the Bible makes clear--the false Anti-Christ . . . all staged and ready as never before in the last 2,000 years.
20. A host of natural disasters appear to be primed, cocked, loaded, looming and clustered for an evidently not-to-distant triggering as never before in our awareness and certainly not in the last 2,000 years--including curioius things in the sun, itself.

- - - - -

Yes, such REALITIES can be very affirming of Scriptural prophecies about the last days in our era.

Of course, I don't expect most of the Mooselimbs or other blind and stubborn folk to be much moved by such facts and realities.


87 posted on 09/21/2006 12:56:51 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Buggman

I don't know. Plausible. I just haven't read them or researched them on the net.


88 posted on 09/21/2006 12:57:31 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: JockoManning

There's much more. Am working on which to include in it's own thread.


89 posted on 09/21/2006 12:58:11 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Buggman

Must you be so faithful in presenting the facts?

It's quite disturbing to those resistent to the truth!

You leave straw dogs, rabid dogs and lots of other nonsense no peace! Harumph!


90 posted on 09/21/2006 1:00:05 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Buggman

You mean . . .

There's no red letter KJV words insisting that Believers ought to be called CALVINISTS????

Oh, Dear! What heresy! What travesty! What horror! What perdition! Whatever can we do!

How will all those angels on the heads of all those needles make do?

How will the planets still reside in their orbits?

How will the shorline continue to stop the seas?

How will the sun continue to shine?

/s


91 posted on 09/21/2006 1:05:21 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: .30Carbine

Your sweet Biblical wisdom is always soothing and calls to high standards I usually can only gaze at. But which I greatly appreciate.

LUB


92 posted on 09/21/2006 1:07:03 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: 1000 silverlings

A Christian believer will never be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
= = = = =

Well, certainly God doesn't need the GPS to keep each believer's precise existential and other addresses firmly at hand.

Very comforting.


93 posted on 09/21/2006 1:08:37 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix
This is comforting: Ro 14:8

For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

GPS is for designing crop circles and making the feeble-minded delirious.

94 posted on 09/21/2006 1:17:47 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: 1000 silverlings

AMEN Unto The Lord.

- - -

I don't think the GPS has anything to do with AUTHENTIC crop circles. Hoaxers may use it.


95 posted on 09/21/2006 1:22:03 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix

What is an "authentic crop circle?"


96 posted on 09/21/2006 1:24:20 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: 1000 silverlings

One in which the nodes of the plants have been heated and often somewhat exploded by extremely brief microwaves; wherein within the circles there is a microdusting of extremely fine iron particles; and within the circles there's a significant difference in the magnatism of the soil vs outside the circle.

I think there are some other scientifically verified differences but those are the basic ones off the top of my head. This has been published in peer reviewed scientific journals, BTW.

The hoaxer's circles have none of the above.


97 posted on 09/21/2006 1:30:04 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix

That's just the military testing new weapons. better to aim them at cornstalks than our heads.


98 posted on 09/21/2006 1:32:13 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: 1000 silverlings

Conceivable . . .

There has been a report or two of an Air Force tech or some such putting a design in a scanner and pressing a button and a satellite creating the crop circle.

But there are far more reports and photos of light orbs of various sizes but basketball sized or smaller, usually--flitting quickly about creating the circles while observers watched.

And, there's a significant number of reports of UFO type craft being over the field while the circle was being created or shortly before or after.

Of course, all the above COULD still be military stuff.

But the best researcher in the field--Linda Moulton Howe doesn't think it's military. I think she'd believe that some might be, but not all.


99 posted on 09/21/2006 1:35:34 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix

Plasma technology, holograms, etc., there's a reason they call it "active denial technology".


100 posted on 09/21/2006 1:41:22 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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