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Yom Kippur: Israel's Reconciliation
The B'rit Chadasha Pages | 9/29/06 | Michael D. Bugg

Posted on 09/29/2006 8:27:34 AM PDT by Buggman

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This article is a continuation of a series on the Fall High Holy Days, which began with Rosh Hashanah.

A warning in advance: I'm going to be away from my computer for most of today and most of the weekend, so it'll probbly feel like I've abandoned this thread. I apologize for that, but there were a number of Freepers who asked me to go ahead and post this article now before the advent of the Day of Atonement. Those demanding a defense of my belief that Christians should observe the same Feastdays that our Lord did and does can read my comments on the previous thread or visit my blog.

To any of my non-Messianic Jewish friends who might be offended at my "co-opting" of the Feastdays, I apologize for the offense, but I have to share what I see revealed in the Scriptures, both the Tanakh and the New Testament.

Also, I apologize in advance for any typos that might have escaped me. I didn't have as much time for editing as I would've preferred.

1 posted on 09/29/2006 8:27:36 AM PDT by Buggman
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; Alamo-Girl; Revelation 911; kerryusama04; DouglasKC; Diego1618; ...

This is sort of the informal Messianic not-a-ping-list. Those I've pinged either directly requested it or showed enough interest in the previous article that I thought you'd enjoy reading this one. If you want on or off this non-ping-list (the Neeners have a strict rule against actually having a ping list), then let me know.


2 posted on 09/29/2006 8:29:35 AM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: topcat54; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; jude24

Since you kept the last thread going for so long, I thought I'd invite you to this one as well. Again, I apologize in advance that I won't have time to join in the usual debates until next week.


3 posted on 09/29/2006 8:31:27 AM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Buggman

Ping for later review


4 posted on 09/29/2006 8:44:50 AM PDT by Wings-n-Wind (All of the answers remain available; Wisdom is gained by asking the right questions!)
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To: Buggman
Thanks for these infromative and meanigful posts...

Non-ping-list.... 4 me -- please

5 posted on 09/29/2006 8:46:20 AM PDT by Wings-n-Wind (All of the answers remain available; Wisdom is gained by asking the right questions!)
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To: Buggman

Will there be more on Yom Kippur, or is this it?


6 posted on 09/29/2006 9:16:22 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54

This is it for Yom Kippur, I think, barring any "additions" I make in responding to posts when I can get to it. What, eight pages in MSWord isn't enough for you? ;-)


7 posted on 09/29/2006 9:25:05 AM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Buggman; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; topcat54
Likewise, the day on which Yeshua will return to restore His fellowship with Israel, and direct them in building a Temple greater than that which they built on their own,

I see I wasn't invited to the party, but once again, your ideas do not match written scripture.

Revelation 21:22

And I saw no temple therein (the new Jerusalem) for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb (Jesus Christ) are the temple of it.

8 posted on 09/29/2006 9:25:17 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; topcat54
That's probably because the New Jerusalem doesn't come down until 1000 years after the event I'm talking about. For the Millennial temple, see Ezk. 40-48.

And the reason you weren't invited is because I saw no reason to invite one who makes unfounded accusations against my integrity instead of making well-written arguments about the subject. If you're going to hang around on this thread, please leave the snarking behind.

9 posted on 09/29/2006 9:39:26 AM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Buggman
But if this is the sole and sufficient fulfillment of the feastday of Yom Kippur, then we have a problem

Paul says in Romans 5:11. ..through our Lord Jesus Christ, we have the atonement.

We do not have "an atonement", we have the atonement

Hebrews 5:5-10

Jesus' ordainment as High Priest was from God.

Hebrews 7:15-28 gives all the reasons why Christ and Christ alone is able to make atonement.

Hebrews 9:11-28 lists all the reasons why Christ was the perfect offering for sins.

Hebrews 10:1-18, shows why the sacrifice was once, for all

Hebrews10:12, He offered one sacrifice for sins, forever

10 posted on 09/29/2006 9:44:49 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: Buggman; Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54; HarleyD

Your millenial temple is the new Jerusalem, better read it again. You are teaching incorrect ideas not based on scripture, and that is the one reason you don't want me here. I will continue to correct any false notions that I see. If that is "snarking" so be it.


11 posted on 09/29/2006 9:48:27 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: 1000 silverlings
Your millenial temple is the new Jerusalem, better read it again.

So the Millennial Temple is the New Jerusalem, which has no Temple.

Uh-huh.

12 posted on 09/29/2006 9:51:47 AM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: 1000 silverlings

You're just nitpicking without actually reading the article, aren't you?


13 posted on 09/29/2006 9:52:19 AM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Buggman

Thanks for the ping!


14 posted on 09/29/2006 9:59:01 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Buggman; All
Thanks for posting it.

Those interested might also want to read:

The Day of Atonement: Removal of Sin's Cause and Reconciliation to God

15 posted on 09/29/2006 10:07:21 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Buggman
Thanks ;-)

b'shem Yah'shua

16 posted on 09/29/2006 10:19:09 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 144:1 Praise be to YHvH, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.)
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To: Buggman

Count me in, Buggman! Thanks!


17 posted on 09/29/2006 10:52:25 AM PDT by HeadOn (Pro Deo, Pro Familia, Pro Patria)
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To: 1000 silverlings; HarleyD; topcat54

Revelation 21:22

"And I saw no temple therein (the new Jerusalem) for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb (Jesus Christ) are the temple of it."

Amen. Christ our only fortress.


18 posted on 09/29/2006 11:03:06 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Thinkin' Gal; Quix; Buggman
Shabbat [Shuva] Shalom!

Zechariah 8

18 Again the word of the LORD Almighty came to me. 19 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah. Therefore love truth and peace."

Enjoy!

M

19 posted on 09/29/2006 1:27:13 PM PDT by Jeremiah Jr (Alef Male)
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To: Buggman
Finding out that Peter didn't trust Paul's conversion and said Paul's vision was from a demon, makes it hard to trust anything that Paul said. And you said there wasn't any tension between Paul and the other Apostles. One might also wonder why the early church thought it necessary to hide the fact that Peter was talking about Paul by giving Paul the codename Simon. Don't they think we deserve to know that Paul was teaching contrary to what Jesus taught???????

From an earlier footnote:

35 [Comp. Recognitions, ii. 50, 51, 61-65. The emphasis laid upon supernatural visions in the remainder of the Homily has been supposed to convey an insinuation against the revelations to the Apostle Paul.-R.]

Chapter XVI.-None But Evil Demons Appear to the Impious.

And Peter said: "I remember that I promised to prove this point, and to give my proofs in regard to it from Scripture and apart from Scripture. sand now listen to what I say. We know that there are many (if you will pardon me the statement; and if you don't, I can appeal to those who are present as judges) who worship idols, commit adultery, and sin in every way, and yet they see true visions and dreams, and some of them have also apparitions of demons. For I maintain that the eyes of mortals cannot see the incorporeal form of the Father or Son, because it is illumined by exceeding great light. Wherefore it is not because God envies, but because He pities, that He cannot be seen by man who has been turned into flesh. For he who sees God cannot live. For the excess of light dissolves the flesh of him who sees; unless by the secret power of God the flesh be changed into the nature of light, so that it can see light, or the substance of light be changed into flesh, so that it can be seen by flesh. For the power to see the Father, without undergoing any change, belongs to the Son alone. But the just shall also in like manner behold God;39 for in the resurrection of the dead, when they have been changed, as far as their bodies are concerned, into light, and become like the angels, they shall be able to see Him. Finally, then, if any angel be sent that be may he seen by a man, he is changed into flesh, that he may be able to be seen by flesh. For no one can see the incorporeal power not only of the Son, but not even of an angel. But if one sees an apparition, he should know that this is the apparition of an evil demon.

Chapter XVIII.-The Nature of Revelation.

"Thus to me also was the Son revealed by the Father. Wherefore I know what is the meaning of revelation, having learned it in my own case. For at the very time when the Lord said, `Who do they say that I am? '47 and when I heard one saying one thing of Him, and another another, it came into my heart to say (and I know not, therefore, how I said it), `Thou art the Son of the living God.'48 But He, pronouncing me blessed, pointed out to me that it was the Father who had revealed it to me; and from this time I learned that revelation is knowledge gained without instruction, and without apparition and dreams. And this is indeed the case. For in the soul49 which has been placed in us by50 God, there is all the truth; but it is covered and revealed by the hand of God, who works so far as each one through his knowledge deserves.51 But the declaration of anything by means of apparitions and dreams from without is a proof, not that it comes from revelation, but from wrath. Finally, then, it is written in the law, that God, being angry, said to Aaron and Miriam,52 `If a prophet arise from amongst you, I shall make myself known to him through visions and dreams, but not so as to my servant Moses; because I shall speak to him in an outward appearance, and not through dreams, just as one will speak to his own friend.' You see how the statements of wrath are made through visions and dreams, but the statements to a friend are made face to face, in outward appearance, and not through riddles and visions and dreams, as to an enemy.

Chapter XIX.-Opposition to Peter Unreasonable.

"If, then, our Jesus appeared to you in a vision, made Himself known to you, and spoke to you, it was as one who is enraged with an adversary; and this is the reason why it was through visions and dreams, or through revelations that were from without, that He spoke to you. But can any one be rendered fit for instruction through apparitions? And if you will say, `It is possible, 'then I ask, `Why did our teacher abide and discourse a whole year to those who were awake? 'And how are we to believe your word, when you tell us that He appeared to you? And how did He appear to you, when you entertain opinions contrary to His teaching? But if you were seen and taught by Him, and became His apostle for a single hour, proclaim His utterances, interpret His sayings, love His apostles, contend not with me who companied with Him. For in direct opposition to me, who am a firm rock, the foundation of the Church,53 you now stand. If you were not opposed to me, you would not accuse me, and revile the truth proclaimed by me, in order that I may not be believed when I state what I myself have heard with my own ears from the Lord, as if I were evidently a person that was condemned and in bad repute.54 But if you say that I am condemned, you bring an accusation against God, who revealed the Christ to me, and you inveigh against Him who pronounced me blessed on account of the revelation. But if, indeed, you really wish to work in the cause of truth, learn first of all from us what we have learned from Him, and, becoming a disciple of the truth, become a fellow-worker with us."

20 posted on 09/29/2006 1:51:14 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) (John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a MAN that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God:)
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To: Jeremiah Jr; the-ironically-named-proverbs2; Eagle Eye; Diego1618
Zechariah 8:19 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall be to the house of Judah joy and gladness, and cheerful feasts; therefore love the truth and peace.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch (house of Israel is at v. 13, but then...?)...

Zechariah 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

21 posted on 09/29/2006 1:58:41 PM PDT by Thinkin' Gal (As it was in the days of NO...)
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To: Buggman; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; topcat54
If by nitpicking you mean my insistence on chapter and verse to support your claims, yes. Just a quick and vague reference is not good enough. If what you say is true, I will be happy to support it.

Galatians is written to Jewish Christians:

4:9

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage ?

4:10

Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

4:11

I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Philippians 3:1-3.

3:2

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3:3

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

22 posted on 09/29/2006 4:48:55 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: Buggman; 1000 silverlings; Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54
This is, in fact, what Replacement Theology claims that God did to Israel in the first century: destroyed them, and replaced them with the Messiah’s “children,” the Church.

This is incorrect. "Replacement" theology is a misnomer. I'm not sure where the name came from but it is an inaccurate description of the theology.

Replacement Theology does not claim that God “destroyed” Israel and “replaced” them with the Church. Replacement Theology follows Paul’s doctrine and states that Gentiles are grafted into the true Israel, the believing Jews. All believers, Jews and Gentiles share in God’s covenant as Christians. All unbelieving Jews and Gentiles are outside of God’s covenant as unbelievers. Israel was never destroyed. Christians are the true Israel.

Those who have God's Laws written on their minds and hearts are the new Israel. Period. This is a simple concept that you have missed in your paper that should be pointed out.
23 posted on 09/29/2006 4:53:00 PM PDT by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; topcat54
Those who have God's Laws written on their minds and hearts are the new Israel. Period.

Amen.

God is not schizophrenic. His plan today is the same as yesterday's plan and tomorrow's plan -- for Jesus Christ to gather God's flock, all believing Jews and Gentiles, and bring them home.

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." -- Romans 9:6-8


24 posted on 09/29/2006 5:02:27 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Buggman; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; topcat54
Hebrews 8 -10 explains that when Messiah completed His sacrifice on the cross, He entered the heavenly Holy of Holies, of which that of the Tabernacle and the Temple were merely copies, to complete the Yom Kippur ritual of atonement. The sacrifice was not accepted because it was being offered by the wrong High Priest:

An astounding statement, considering that this is just the opposite of what the book of Hebrews teaches!

Please provide chapter and verse to support this argument.

25 posted on 09/29/2006 5:19:39 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Diego1618; topcat54; kerryusama04; Buggman; Dr. Eckleburg
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage ? 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Just to be clear, do you believe that Paul is calling holy days that the almighty eternal God created, such as the day of atonement, "weak and beggarly elements"?

26 posted on 09/29/2006 5:35:08 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54
Why didn't you post the rest of the scripture I referenced?

4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

After hearing the gospel preached, Paul is telling them that he is concerned that they understand nothing about Jesus. They cling to the old way of life, the shadows as opposed to the true light.

The word elements comes from root words meaning a cooling as in end of summer, or a chill.

27 posted on 09/29/2006 5:49:50 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Diego1618; Dr. Eckleburg
Galatians is written to Jewish Christians: 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage ? 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Philippians 3:1-3. 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Just to be clear, do you believe that Paul is calling holy days that the almighty eternal God created, such as the day of atonement, "weak and beggarly elements"?

28 posted on 09/29/2006 5:54:43 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54

Paul was addressing two groups in Galatians, the false teachers who were formerly Jewish and the converted, formerly pagan Galatians. As it would be blasphemy, both for anyone and for Paul to call God's ordained holy days anything like weak and beggarly, and since verse 3, chapter 4, mentions the elements of the world, it is clear that the elements of the world, not God is what he is addressing, or pagan beliefs.


29 posted on 09/29/2006 6:11:20 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: 1000 silverlings
Paul was addressing two groups in Galatians, the false teachers who were formerly Jewish and the converted, formerly pagan Galatians. As it would be blasphemy, both for anyone and for Paul to call God's ordained holy days anything like weak and beggarly, and since verse 3, chapter 4, mentions the elements of the world, it is clear that the elements of the world, not God is what he is addressing, or pagan beliefs.

Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't sure where you were coming from.

30 posted on 09/29/2006 6:55:06 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: 1000 silverlings
Paul was addressing two groups in Galatians, the false teachers who were formerly Jewish

Who might these be? James? Peter?

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Oh yeah, funny how the Apostles that actually knew Yehoshua became the 'false brethren'.

31 posted on 09/29/2006 7:25:42 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) (John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a MAN that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God:)
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To: 1000 silverlings; DouglasKC; kerryusama04
Galatians is written to Jewish Christians: But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, where unto ye desire again to be in bondage ? 4:9

Hardly! Verse 8 says, "Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not Gods." When was the last time you heard of any Jewish folks who "did not know God?"....at least in New Testament times!

4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Pagans observed the above.....have you ever heard of the "Venerable Day of the Sun?" There is no mention of Sabbaths or Feast Days in this scripture! Pagans did indeed have "special days".....and months....and years.

32 posted on 09/29/2006 7:40:38 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: DouglasKC
St Paul suggested that those who tried to live by the law could never fully keep its ordinances, therefore they were under 'the curse of the law.' He also refered to the commandments at Sinai as 'ordinances of death.' Therefore, they need Jesus as the appointed sacrifice to free them of sin.

There are a couple of problems with this (thus some of the debates you might see on this thread, etc.) But, in my view, one of simplest objections to the 'law is a curse' argument, is just that through book after book of the Bible, no one seems to suggest it is impossible to keep, although many of the Prophets point out that there is a lot more to keeping the law than outward observances.

Some would argue that the Old Testament is abrogated by the New, but even in the New Testament we read of: 'a certain priest named Zacharias ... and his wife ... and they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord, blameless.' (Luke 1,5-6)

A standard theological response to these questions is given by John Calvin who says:

When [God] calls it a “perpetual” or eternal “covenant,” the Jews rest on it as a ground of their obstinacy, and wantonly rave against Christ as a covenant-breaker, because He abrogated the Sabbath.... Whatever was spoken of under the Law as eternal, I maintain to have had reference to the new state of things which came to pass at the coming of Christ; and thus the eternity of the Law must not be extended beyond the fulness of time, when the truth of its shadows was manifested, and God’s covenant assumed a different form. If the Jews cry out that what is perpetual, and what is temporary, are contraries to each other, we must deny it in various respects, since assuredly what was peculiar to the Law could not continue to exist beyond the day of Jesus Christ.

33 posted on 09/29/2006 8:33:02 PM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: BlackVeil; DouglasKC; kerryusama04
St Paul suggested that those who tried to live by the law could never fully keep its ordinances, therefore they were under 'the curse of the law.

Your confusing the "Law of Moses" with the "Law of God."

The spiritual Law had been in effect from creation....the Law of Moses was the Law added later.

It was added because of transgressions (sin). The definition of sin? [1 John 3:4] The transgression of the Law. What Law???? God's spiritual Law that preceded "The Law of Moses!"

The civil and ceremonial "Law of Moses" is what has been done away with and is of what the Apostle speaks. Deuteronomy, chapters 27 & 28 are good examples of the Mosaic Law. Exodus 20:1-17 is a good example of the Law of God.

34 posted on 09/29/2006 9:11:54 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: DouglasKC; Buggman; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
I'm glad you asked that because that passage can be confusing and we want lurkers to see the truth that the bible preaches. My post was actually more in condemnation of false teachers who want to lead the weak astray, and that some, even after hearing of the gospel, fail to grasp its full signigficance. Since I am constrained somewhat on this forum I am trying to use scripture, as we all should, to support my arguments. I especially liked the verse in Philippians3:2, regarding the concision, for there Paul is unabashedly calling the matter in very harsh terms.

Thank you for your post.

35 posted on 09/30/2006 8:42:53 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: Diego1618; Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54; HarleyD
Hardly!

Let us review:

The purpose of the letters to the churches, and even though they were addressed to"Galatians" they were circulated throughout all of them. They are even written to us today, and the message is timeless.

Galatians was written to refute the Judaizers and to call people back to the true Gospel.

Chapter1: verse8- 9, is his warning against listening to those who preach any gospel other than the one Paul preached

He proceeds to tell them that he received the Gospel from God, and in chapter 2:4, he says that false brethren were unawares brought in.

In chapter 3, he explains the superiority of the Gospel over all others.

Chapter 3:1, he asks the foolish "Who has bewitched you", so they were getting false information from someone, and it would not be from the Apostles.

Chapter 4, verses 8-20 shows his concern for the deceived.

Chapter 5, he preaches the liberty of the Gospel and here once again, he shows why the Law cannot save.

Chapter 6, verses 11-18 he gives his last warning, especially see verse 13, and again in verse 15, he says that Jesus is all that matters.

To conclude, beware, for false teachers want you to think that Christ's death did not make a final atonement for sin, they say that people must obey the Law in order to be saved, they try to find favor with God by observing certain rituals. When told that he was disregarding the Law of Moses, Paul responds by putting the Law in its proper place. He says it shows people how they sin and points them to Christ.

36 posted on 09/30/2006 9:05:35 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: BlackVeil; DouglasKC
A standard theological response to these questions is given by John Calvin who says:

When [God] calls it a “perpetual” or eternal “covenant,” the Jews rest on it as a ground of their obstinacy, and wantonly rave against Christ as a covenant-breaker, because He abrogated the Sabbath.... From Dictionary.com:

ab·ro·gate (br-gt) Pronunciation Key tr.v. ab·ro·gat·ed, ab·ro·gat·ing, ab·ro·gates To abolish, do away with, or annul, especially by authority.

Jesus did not abrogate the Sabbath:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, Deu 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Deu 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. Deu 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Note 1: the standard for judging prophets.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Note 2: Jesus IS the light that Isaiah references!

Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, and they that were with him; Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. Mat 12:9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: Mat 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. Mat 12:13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

Note 3: The Pharisees were testing Jesus with the Deuteronomy and Isaiah standard. They failed.

Note 4: Jesus could not say there was no more Sabbath or it has changed because if he had, he would have been contradicting the Law, he would have been stoned, and that would have been that

37 posted on 09/30/2006 9:35:30 AM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Diego1618; Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54; HarleyD
To conclude, beware, for false teachers want you to think that Christ's death did not make a final atonement for sin, they say that people must obey the Law in order to be saved, they try to find favor with God by observing certain rituals. When told that he was disregarding the Law of Moses, Paul responds by putting the Law in its proper place. He says it shows people how they sin and points them to Christ.

It is obvious to even the most casual reader that following the Law does not save anyone. For instance, not stealing cars will not earn you a good result at the Resurrection. No sleeping with your neighbor's wife will not earn your place in the Kingdom. Keeping 52 Sabbaths a year and the Holy Days will not earn your salvation. If it could, then we would not have needed a Saviour. The gift of salvation is free, and one must accept it. Obedience to God's Law is the product of faith.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

38 posted on 09/30/2006 9:45:11 AM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: Diego1618
The civil and ceremonial "Law of Moses" is what has been done away with and is of what the Apostle speaks. Deuteronomy, chapters 27 & 28 are good examples of the Mosaic Law. Exodus 20:1-17 is a good example of the Law of God.

They are both the Laws of YHWH. Mat 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

It is clear that both sets are to be practiced.

Exodus 20

Deut. 27

1And God spake all these words, saying,

 2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

 3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

 4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

 8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

 13Thou shalt not kill.

 14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

 15Thou shalt not steal.

 16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

 17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

 
10 Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the LORD thy God, and do his commandments and his statutes, which I command thee this day.

15Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.

 16Cursed be he that setteth light by his father or his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.

 17Cursed be he that removeth his neighbour's landmark. And all the people shall say, Amen.

 18Cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way. And all the people shall say, Amen.

 19Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen.

 20Cursed be he that lieth with his father's wife; because he uncovereth his father's skirt. And all the people shall say, Amen.

 21Cursed be he that lieth with any manner of beast. And all the people shall say, Amen.

 22Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.

 23Cursed be he that lieth with his mother in law. And all the people shall say, Amen.

 24Cursed be he that smiteth his neighbour secretly. And all the people shall say, Amen.

 25Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.

 26Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.




39 posted on 09/30/2006 12:02:40 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) (John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a MAN that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God:)
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To: Buggman; Diego1618; DouglasKC; kerryusama04; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; topcat54
Now that we have defended our positions using scripture, I would like you to hold Mr. Buggman to the same standard. Please ask him to explain this statement, and back it up, using scripture. Thank you

Hebrews 8 -10 explains that when Messiah completed His sacrifice on the cross, He entered the heavenly Holy of Holies, of which that of the Tabernacle and the Temple were merely copies, to complete the Yom Kippur ritual of atonement. The sacrifice was not accepted because it was being offered by the wrong High Priest:

40 posted on 09/30/2006 12:07:43 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: DouglasKC
Just to be clear, do you believe that Paul is calling holy days that the almighty eternal God created, such as the day of atonement, "weak and beggarly elements"?

I looked at the verses from a couple of different bibles. The Amplified shows it as :

8 But at that previous time, when you had not come to be acquainted with and understand and know the true God, you [Gentiles] were in bondage to gods who by their very nature could not be gods at all [gods that really did not exist].

9 Now, however, that you have come to be acquainted with and understand and know [the true] God, or rather to be understood and known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly and worthless elementary things [[c]of all religions before Christ came], whose slaves you once more want to become?

10 You observe [particular] days and months and seasons and years!

11 I am alarmed [about you], lest I have labored among and over you to no purpose and in vain.

Hopefully the Amplified is in error about Paul meaning ALL religions before Christ, as that would also include Judaism or at least the religions that were given to us by YHWH.

I think and hope that Paul is merely talking about the pagan/heathen practices and feasts.

41 posted on 09/30/2006 12:28:59 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) (John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a MAN that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God:)
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To: 1000 silverlings
My post was actually more in condemnation of false teachers who want to lead the weak astray, and that some, even after hearing of the gospel, fail to grasp its full signigficance.

Thanks for the reminder. Who are those 'false teachers' that Paul is talking about?

42 posted on 09/30/2006 12:31:56 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) (John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a MAN that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God:)
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To: 1000 silverlings
Galatians was written to refute the Judaizers and to call people back to the true Gospel.

Ah, yes....Judaizer, the Catholic excuse for changing the set times and the Law [Daniel 7:25]. The Sabbath, of course, is the only commandment that deals with a specific time and the Festivals are at appointed times also. Sure wouldn't want our religion to look too Jewish....would we? The word Judaizer is not found in scripture but began circulating throughout early writings when the powers that stood wanted all semblance of Jewishness erased from liturgy.

The fact remains....the citizens of Galatia were not Jewish. They were Greco Romans and were being evangelized by Paul. Paul was sent to the Gentiles [Galatians 2:7]. Peter and the other Apostles had been sent to the Israelites [Matthew 10:5-6]. The false brethren were the same folks mentioned in Acts 15:1-2 and circumcision for Gentiles had been dealt with by James in verse 19.

Do you observe the Catholic Sabbath?

43 posted on 09/30/2006 2:10:37 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: ET(end tyranny)
Hopefully the Amplified is in error about Paul meaning ALL religions before Christ, as that would also include Judaism or at least the religions that were given to us by YHWH.
I think and hope that Paul is merely talking about the pagan/heathen practices and feasts.

The Amplified is of course a commentary. Most modern commentators are eager to group God's holy days and their observance into this category. No surprise there. That being said, Judaism, by the time of Christ, had corrupted the true religion given by God. So some of the non-scriptural, perhaps pagan elements, of Judaism could well have been referred to.

44 posted on 10/01/2006 5:36:09 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Buggman
A version of the Kol Nidre, with its haunting melody
45 posted on 10/01/2006 2:53:05 PM PDT by EveningStar
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To: All
The day of Atonement, one of God's biblical holy days, begins at sunset tonight....

Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

Lev 23:26 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying, Lev 23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be a holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Lev 23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
Lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
Lev 23:31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

46 posted on 10/01/2006 5:16:44 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; All
According to the Karaites who do not follow the Talmud nor the Misnah only the Tanach;

the following are the dates of the feasts based only the sighting of the New Moon:

Dates of Biblical Holidays

2006-2007

1st Unleavened Bread

April 14, 2006

א' חג המצות

7th Unleavened Bread

April 20, 2006

ז' חג המצות

Shavuot

June 4, 2006

חג השבועות

Yom Teruah

(Day of Shouting)

September 25, 2006

יום תרועה

Yom Kippurim (Day of Atonement)

October 4, 2006

יום הכפורים

1st Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles)

October 9, 2006

א' חג הסוכות

Shemini Atzeret (Last Great Day)

October 16, 2006

שמיני עצרת

Days of Purim

March 4-5, 2007

ימי הפורים


All of the Biblical Holy Days begin at sunset on the day before the date listed and continue for 24 hours until sunset on the following day.

b'shem Yah'shua


47 posted on 10/02/2006 1:19:24 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 144:1 Praise be to YHvH, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.)
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To: All
What is Karaism?

Karaites preserve the original religion of the Hebrew Bible,
rejecting later innovations such as the Rabbinic Oral Law.
Every individual is required to take responsibility for interpreting the Tanach.

b'shem Y'shua

48 posted on 10/02/2006 1:30:49 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 144:1 Praise be to YHvH, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Buggman; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; topcat54; DouglasKC; Diego1618
4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage ?

What translation is this?

Here's the NAS:
Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

YLT:
Gal 4:9 and now, having known God--and rather being known by God--how turn ye again unto the weak and poor elements to which anew ye desire to be in servitude?

I think it was in high school where I first learned that Romans/Greeks were the ones who worshipped elements: earth, wind, fire, and water was it?

Paul was, again, preaching to Gentiles - Hellenistic Gentiles to be precise.

49 posted on 10/02/2006 7:32:30 PM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: HarleyD; Buggman; 1000 silverlings; Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54; Diego1618; DouglasKC
This is incorrect. "Replacement" theology is a misnomer. I'm not sure where the name came from but it is an inaccurate description of the theology.

I believe in a replacement theology of sorts, or rather an addition theology.:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

The Nation of Israel today only has half of the recipe, and those of you who spend your days trying to convince us not to keep God's 4th commandment only have the other half.

50 posted on 10/02/2006 7:38:33 PM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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