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Yom Kippur: Israel's Reconciliation
The B'rit Chadasha Pages | 9/29/06 | Michael D. Bugg

Posted on 09/29/2006 8:27:34 AM PDT by Buggman

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To: topcat54
You really need to pray for your Karaite friends that they would come to a knowledge of the truth, and stop their stumbling over Jesus.

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

148 posted on 10/12/2006 2:33:15 PM MDT by topcat54

I do pray that all will come to know the Word of G-d, Who is Yah'shua.

However it is YHvH who chose all who who would be chosen before the foundation of the universe.

b'shem Yah'shua
151 posted on 10/12/2006 1:59:53 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 144:1 Praise be to YHvH, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.)
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To: topcat54; XeniaSt; kerryusama04; Diego1618; DouglasKC; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; jude24

One can always tell when you don't have an actual counter-argument: You get progressively more snide.


152 posted on 10/12/2006 2:15:01 PM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: XeniaSt
However it is YHvH who chose all who who would be chosen before the foundation of the universe.

Then He also must also have chosen them to believe in Jesus, His only begotten Son.

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56)

"And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal. 3:29)

"What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded." (Rom. 11:7)

To speculate that someone may be "chosen" and yet God does not bring to them the means to hear the name of Jesus and believe in Him is sheer folly in light of all the testimony in Scripture (Acts 8:26ff)

153 posted on 10/12/2006 2:20:22 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54
To speculate that someone may be "chosen" and yet God does not bring to them the means to hear the name of Jesus and believe in Him is sheer folly in light of all the testimony in Scripture (Acts 8:26ff)

153 posted on 10/12/2006 3:20:22 PM MDT by topcat54

My Messiah's name is not Jesus. that is a corruption of Greek to Latin to English.

The name given to the L-rd G-d who tabernacled among us is Yah'shua.

If do not know the L-rd's NAME how can you know Him?

How can you call upon His NAME to be saved?

b'shem Yah'shua
154 posted on 10/12/2006 2:38:33 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 144:1 Praise be to YHvH, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.)
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To: Buggman; Diego1618; topcat54; kerryusama04; DouglasKC; XeniaSt; HarleyD
Our job is simply to teach the Word and live in it.

Here are a couple more texts that ought to give one pause:

Jam 3:1 My brothers, do not be many teachers, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

My question about being worried about one's salvation is absolutely NOT out of line.

Who among us does not pray to God each and every day that we are doing His will? Who among us doesn't pray that we are using our gifts to give Him glory? There is a whole lot of responsibility in what we are doing here.

Lots of people fail to recognize that we will indeed be judged. We will be judged by a known standard. Did any of you wonder why there are uniform standards of measure in the OT? Are they there only or the purpose of commerce? Or is there a greater meaning?

Lev 19:35 You shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in measures and weights, or in quantity.

Are we to assume that God is not going to be righteous in our judgment? Has God hidden His standards or are we blessed with the knowledge of them through His Word?

This is NOT salvation through works. Salvation through works assumes that God does NOT want us to be saved! It assumes that it is impossible to please God, but if we accumulate enough good "merits", the He has no choice but to let us in. This of course is poppycock. God desires that we be saved:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.

It says "might be saved" FRiends, not "will be saved".

155 posted on 10/12/2006 4:15:43 PM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: XeniaSt
The name given to the L-rd G-d who tabernacled among us is Yah'shua.

If one wishes to push their hobby horse issues, they are certainly free to do so in this forum.

However, in the infallible Word of God, a large portion of which was written in Greek to a largely Greek speaking audience, Paul and the other apostles had no problem identifying our Savior as Iesous. What you call a "corruption" is in reality part of the God-breathed Word. No phoney transliterations. No requiring Greek speakers to get all tongue twisted with His name.

God can speak Greek just as well as He can speak Hebrew or Aramaic.

If that is the reason for why Karaites don't know Jesus, it's a poor one.

156 posted on 10/12/2006 4:19:50 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: HarleyD; Buggman; kerryusama04; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; XeniaSt
The problem is no one will be able to live by these standards. While you personally may wish to try to live your life to this standard, it is wrong to ask this of others. It amounts to living under the Law.

Without God's spirit living in and through us then it truly would be impossible to keep God's commandments in spirit, although we may be able to keep them physically. Nobody would have been saved except for the sacrifice of Christ:

Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

With the new covenant, God's laws, the ten commandements, are written on the hearts of believers:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

This process of God writing his laws upon our hearts is only possible through the sacrifice of Christ. We call it "having the spirit of God", or the indwelling of the holy spirit.

The Ark of the Covenant was a type of the human heart. In the ark, God specified that the ten commandments be placed in it:

Deu 10:2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou didst break, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
Deu 10:3 And I made an ark of shittim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.
Deu 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spoke unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.
Deu 10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.

The ten commandments were the heart of the old covenant:

Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Those who enter in the new covenant with God pledge to follow these same laws, with a distinct advantage. All we have to do is allow the spirit of God to lead us.

This "writing on our hearts" manifests itself as Godly love. ...love toward God and love toward others.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The ten commandments ARE the written expression of Godly love toward God and others.

157 posted on 10/12/2006 4:22:23 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: kerryusama04; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; jude24
It says "might be saved" FRiends, not "will be saved".

Since the subject is the kosmos, are you saying that it might not have been saved?

158 posted on 10/12/2006 4:31:06 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: DouglasKC; Buggman; kerryusama04; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; XeniaSt
This process of God writing his laws upon our hearts is only possible through the sacrifice of Christ.

What precisely does it mean to have the laws written upon our hearts?

159 posted on 10/12/2006 5:22:58 PM PDT by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: topcat54; HarleyD; Diego1618; DouglasKC; XeniaSt; Buggman; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg
TC did you define lawlessness yet? I am really hesitant to go down the road of definitions until you define lawlessness. I apologize if I missed it.

Since the subject is the kosmos, are you saying that it might not have been saved?

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth. And the things before will not be remembered, nor come to mind.

2Pe 3:11 Then, all these things being about to be dissolved, what sort ought you to be in holy behavior and godliness, 2Pe 3:12 looking for and rushing the coming of the Day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will melt away, and the elements will melt, burning with heat? 2Pe 3:13 But according to His promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Apparently the kosmos doesn't make the cut.

160 posted on 10/12/2006 5:43:23 PM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: topcat54; XeniaSt; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
"And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, 'Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.' " (Matt12:49,50)

You quoted this one to Xenia on 138. Just where, exactly, is the will of His Father in heaven defined?

161 posted on 10/12/2006 7:15:43 PM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: HarleyD; Buggman; kerryusama04; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; XeniaSt
This process of God writing his laws upon our hearts is only possible through the sacrifice of Christ.
What precisely does it mean to have the laws written upon our hearts?

It means that you have God's holy spirit, the spirit of Christ, indwelling. It means that so long as you let the spirit of Christ be expressed through you, that you will love God with all your heart, soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself.

The apparent effect of this on you will be that you seem to be keeping the ten commandments. You conform your thoughts, heart and behavior to God's commandments because God's commandments define love:

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

More precisely, God's laws being written on our hearts is the process of overcoming, the process of Christian growth, through obedience to the indwelling of God's spirit:

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

In other words, in the Christian walk, we strive to put aside our own thoughts, ideas and behaviors and let Christ live instead:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

162 posted on 10/12/2006 9:47:22 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; Buggman; kerryusama04; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; XeniaSt
In other words, in the Christian walk, we strive to put aside our own thoughts, ideas and behaviors and let Christ live instead

Interesting but I would disagree. I would say that Christ is already living inside of us, perfecting us. God uses everything in our lives to perfect us into obedience to His calling. Our sinful failings have all been identified and the right measure of chastisement carefully planned. Christ will live and reign in us.

163 posted on 10/13/2006 1:41:31 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: HarleyD; Buggman; kerryusama04; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; XeniaSt
Interesting but I would disagree. I would say that Christ is already living inside of us, perfecting us. God uses everything in our lives to perfect us into obedience to His calling. Our sinful failings have all been identified and the right measure of chastisement carefully planned. Christ will live and reign in us.

That's exactly what I said, but in different words. But bringing ourselves into obedience implies that we know what, or whom, we need to be obedient to. The ten commandments are our school master. They point out just what exactly sin is:

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

As Paul says:

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul says that he would have no idea what lust was were it not for one of God's commmandments. He would have been stuck in sin, following his own thoughts.

And that's the problem when you take the ten commandments out of the picture. That's why churches are always splitting, always corrupting, always instituting one evil after another. Everyone does what's right in their own eyes instead of in God's eyes:

Deu 13:18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

164 posted on 10/13/2006 5:34:09 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: kerryusama04; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; jude24
TC did you define lawlessness yet?

The Bible does a good enough job. Lawlessness is sin (1 John 3:4). Sin is "any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God." The moral law of God is defined by the Bible, all 66 books of it. The Ten Commandments are a summary of the moral law of God, the basis for defining lawlessless. The NT enhances, revises, and completes our view of the moral law, e.g., in the area of sabbath day particulars. We worship on the first day of the week in the new covenant after the practice of the apostles and early church as recorded in the Scripture. We do not worship as semi-Jews. It's that simple.

Lawlessness is not defined in terms of any ceremonial or judicial details given uniquely to Israel in her typological/redemptive role. IOW, we are not held guilty for not following God's command to purge the promised land from all foreign nations given to Moses and Joshua. Likewise, we are not held guilty for eating swine flesh or wearing clothes from two kinds of material. Indeed, this is obvious from the fact that Paul did not condemn Peter and Barnabas for "living in the manner of Gentiles" (Gal 2:17), but for playing the hypocite when Peter withdrew at the appearence of "certain men came from James".

Apparently the kosmos doesn't make the cut.

"For God so loved the kosmosthat He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the kosmosto condemn the world, but that the kosmosthrough Him might be saved."

You're seem to be a pecular interpretation of that passage. God loved the kosmos but apparently He does not have the wherewithal to actually save the kosmos.

The Greek word kosmos is used 151 times in the NT. It has a variety of meanings. The context of John 3 makes it clear that kosmos is a reference to God's entire creation that is subject to His redemptive mission. (The aorist passive of "save" in the greek original of John 3:17 does not convey the notion of potential failure.)

Christians believe in a God how does save, not just one would might save. Otherwise we might all end up in the lake of fire, and God would be left with no one to sing His praises in all eternity.

165 posted on 10/13/2006 6:53:49 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54
If you're going to ping the crowd, then ping the whole crowd.

The Bible does a good enough job. Lawlessness is sin (1 John 3:4). Sin is "any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God." The moral law of God is defined by the Bible, all 66 books of it. The Ten Commandments are a summary of the moral law of God, the basis for defining lawlessless. The NT enhances, revises, and completes our view of the moral law, e.g., in the area of sabbath day particulars. We worship on the first day of the week in the new covenant after the practice of the apostles and early church as recorded in the Scripture. We do not worship as semi-Jews. It's that simple.

Then, can you point to which scripture commands a change from God's Sabbath to Rome's?

Furthermore, the Promise was made to Abraham and his seed. The scriptures say that believers in Jesus are adopted into this Promise. Israel the person was a descendent of Abraham, Israel the Nation was a descendant of Abraham, as are those who believe in Jesus (the Israel of God) - through adoption. So, in a way, Christians are semi-Jews!

Lawlessness is not defined in terms of any ceremonial or judicial details given uniquely to Israel in her typological/redemptive role. IOW, we are not held guilty for not following God's command to purge the promised land from all foreign nations given to Moses and Joshua. Likewise, we are not held guilty for eating swine flesh or wearing clothes from two kinds of material. Indeed, this is obvious from the fact that Paul did not condemn Peter and Barnabas for "living in the manner of Gentiles" (Gal 2:17), but for playing the hypocite when Peter withdrew at the appearence of "certain men came from James"

I pretty much agree with you here, but it is pretty clear that none of the Bible authors (all Jews in your opinion) ever broke one of the 10 Commandments. Had they done so, then they would have been disfellowshipped using the Deut. and Isaiah standards for prophets.

Act 17:11 And these were more noble than those of Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind and searched the Scriptures daily to see if those things were so.

"For God so loved the kosmosthat He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the kosmosto condemn the world, but that the kosmosthrough Him might be saved."

You're seem to be a pecular interpretation of that passage. God loved the kosmos but apparently He does not have the wherewithal to actually save the kosmos.

Actually, I was just playing your litle word game. The scriptures are clear that this earth and all its works will be burned up and the heavens will be rolled up. The new earth will have no night. We will not remember this sinful world. These things are true and verifiable.

Christians believe in a God how does save, not just one would might save. Otherwise we might all end up in the lake of fire, and God would be left with no one to sing His praises in all eternity.

I'm afraid these Christians you reference are in error.

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice, Joh 5:29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation. Joh 5:30 I can do nothing of My own self. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of the Father who has sent Me.

166 posted on 10/13/2006 8:13:35 AM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: DouglasKC; Buggman; kerryusama04; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; XeniaSt
That's exactly what I said, but in different words. But bringing ourselves into obedience implies that we know what, or whom, we need to be obedient to.

No, that isn't what I said. We don't bring ourselves into obedience. It is God who brings us into obedience. That is what the Law of the Spirit is about.

167 posted on 10/13/2006 8:23:12 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: kerryusama04; HarleyD; Diego1618; DouglasKC; XeniaSt; Buggman; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
Which picture best represents your worldview?

More here.

168 posted on 10/13/2006 8:24:33 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: kerryusama04; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; jude24
If you're going to ping the crowd, then ping the whole crowd.

You may ping whomever you like.

Then, can you point to which scripture commands a change from God's Sabbath to Rome's?

If you mean can I point to Scripture which indicates a change from the last day sabbath of the old covenant shadows to the first day sabbath of the new covenant substance, the answer is "yes".

No need to take up bandwidth. Just go back an read my many older posts.

"Rome", as you folks like to bring up, was nowhere in existence when Christ rose from the dead on the first day of the week, and when the Spirit was poured out on the first day of the week, and when Peter, Paul and the other apostles met with the church on the first day of the week for worship (teaching and the breaking of bread, the Lord's Supper). The first day represented the substance of the new covenant order.

Last day sabbath worship finally expired with the end of the old aeon, that is, when the temple was finally destroyed and old Israel came to an end ecclesiastically. The only folks who continued to follow a last day sabbath were the apostate Jews and the heretical groups like the Ebionites. The true church followed the teaching of the apostles and worshipped on the Lord's Day, the Christian sabbath.

Actually, I was just playing your litle word game. The scriptures are clear that this earth and all its works will be burned up and the heavens will be rolled up. The new earth will have no night. We will not remember this sinful world. These things are true and verifiable.

Just to add one more thing to help you clear up your confusion, the greek word kosmos (world) is not the same as the greek word ge ala "new heavens and new earth".

It's apparent from John 3 that Christ came to save the "world" (kosmos) even thought the "earth" (ge) will be destroyed by fire and renewed. Skip the word games, and just check the context. It's more profitable.

Hope that helps.

169 posted on 10/13/2006 8:43:04 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: HarleyD; DouglasKC; kerryusama04; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; XeniaSt
There's a bit of both, Harley. The Spirit transforms us from within, giving us a new heart of flesh on which is written God's Torah--but we also have to continually, day-by-day and decision-by-decision yield to the Spirit, and we always have the choice to disobey.

If that were not the case, then Sha'ul, Kefa, Yochanan, and a lot of other apostles and Church fathers wasted a lot of ink extorting us to the obedience of the faith:

Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. (Acts 14:22)

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Hebrews 10:25)

Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. (I Thessalonians 4:1)

Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. (I Thessalonians 5:14)

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; (I Timothy 2:1)

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. (Titus 2:15)

But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (Hebrews 3:13)

If having the Torah written on our hearts by the receiving of the Spirit automatically means that we walk in the way God wants us to, without instruction and as it were by instinct, then why did Sha'ul so often have to write to the churches to rebuke them for sin?

Indeed, you cannot separate the Spirit of God from the written Word of God, which is, after all, the Sword of the Spirit (Eph. 6:17, cf. Heb. 4:12). Thus Sha'ul writes, "All scripture (including the Torah!) is given by inspiration of God (lit. "is God-breathed," given by the Breath, or Spirit, of God), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Ti. 3:16-17).

When God gives us His Breath and a new heart and writes His Torah on our hearts, He gives us an earnest desire in our new "inward man" to follow Him. This is why Sha'ul could write in Rom. 3:11, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God," but then turn around and say, "For I delight in the Torah of God after the inward man" (7:22). He could delight in the Torah, instead of being pressed down under its burden, precisely because of the Spirit within him.

But having an earnest desire to follow God in our inward parts does not automatically mean that we know what to do. Some things are obvious and come naturally to the believer (2:14f). Others are obvious, but we come under "the deceitfulness of sin," and require rebuke and exhortation from our fellow believers and the written Word to bring us to repentence.

And other things are not at all obvious. For example, consider the issue of eating meat sacrificed to idols. The first century believers were caught between the command not to participate in idolatry and the fact that any meat sold in the market could well have been sacrificed without their knowledge. Sha'ul gave a very carefully reasoned solution: Since the no-gods of the Gentiles were demons, one must not knowingly eat of meat sacrificed to them as a witness that we follow only one God; but since the demons have no power over we who are in the Messiah, it is not necessary to inquire after every piece of meat in a paranoid fashion. It may seem trite to us, but it was a very important issue back when the Epistles were written and required study and consideration.

I know you love God, Harley, and that you are going about loving Him in the way that you were raised to, and the way that you believe is right and proper from your understanding of Scripture. But this is why simply saying that the Spirit guides us is not an excuse for not studying the Sword of the Spirit and submitting itself to what it--not our own opinions, which are shaped by upbringing, tradition, and temperment as much as by the Spirit--says is the right way to follow God.

God did not give us His Spirit to replace the Scriptures, but to open our eyes and hearts to receiving and obeying the Scriptures--not in the oldness of the letter, but in the newness of the Spirit (Rom. 7:6, 2 Co. 3:6).

170 posted on 10/13/2006 9:22:59 AM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: topcat54; kerryusama04; HarleyD; Diego1618; DouglasKC; XeniaSt; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg

Both of your charts are too simplistic.


171 posted on 10/13/2006 9:24:15 AM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: topcat54
If you mean can I point to Scripture which indicates a change from the last day sabbath of the old covenant shadows to the first day sabbath of the new covenant substance, the answer is "yes".

No need to take up bandwidth. Just go back an read my many older posts.

I'm afraid your previous answers fall terribly short, especially in light of this scripture:

Act 17:11 And these were more noble than those of Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind and searched the Scriptures daily to see if those things were so.

If you recall, the Sabbath is the 7th day of the week:

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the Sabbath of Jehovah your God.

Last day sabbath worship finally expired with the end of the old aeon, that is, when the temple was finally destroyed and old Israel came to an end ecclesiastically.

You got a scripture for that?

It's apparent from John 3 that Christ came to save the "world" (kosmos) even thought the "earth" (ge) will be destroyed by fire and renewed. Skip the word games, and just check the context. It's more profitable.

Word games? Your the one who took us on the kosmos tangent. Here is the pertinent verse again in several translations.

NKJV: Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.

KJV: Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

NASB: Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

YLT: Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

DRB: Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world: but that the world may be saved by him.

ISV: Joh 3:17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

It does not say "will".

172 posted on 10/13/2006 12:00:53 PM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: Buggman; kerryusama04; HarleyD; Diego1618; DouglasKC; XeniaSt; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg
Thanks.

Are you intersting in listening to this sermon and sharing your thoughts?

Justification & Judaism by Baruch Maoz.

173 posted on 10/13/2006 12:15:58 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54; Buggman; kerryusama04; Diego1618; DouglasKC; XeniaSt; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg

Excellent sermon. I won't have time to finish but many tonight.


174 posted on 10/13/2006 12:26:03 PM PDT by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: kerryusama04; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; jude24
I'm afraid your previous answers fall terribly short, especially in light of this scripture:

Hardly. Acts 17:11 merely teaches that when the apostles came along teaching that it was customary to compare their teachings with the Scriptures. No problem with that. But, what would they do when Peter came along and told them that God revealed in a vision to "take and eat" with respect to unclean foods. (Yes, I recognize this vision is really an argument from the lesser to the greater, and that really God was speaking of the salvation of the gentiles and their place in the kingdom, but it must also necessitate the abrogation of the old covenant food laws and other laws that separated Jews from gentiles.) Would they not object, based on Scripture, when Peter and Paul would "live in the manner of Gentiles" (Gal. 2:14)?

Or what about when Paul or another of the apostles would tell them of the abolition of the earthly priesthood? Are you suggesting they would turn in their Scriptures and declare Paul a heretic based on passages like Exo. 40:15 and Num. 25:13?

So, if you are declaring that there was absolutely no change in the law from Old Testament to New, and that somehow a bare reading of Acts 17:11 refutes the change of the sabbath details, I'm afraid you are incorrect.

If you recall, the Sabbath is the 7th day of the week: Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the Sabbath of Jehovah your God.

I noticed how you subtly switched the verse to suit your theology. I made this point before, that Exodus 20 does not say, "the sabbath day is the seventh day" as if eternally set in stone. It actually says, "the seventh day is the sabbath". Just as new moons and unleavened bread and passover were also sabbath days under the old covenant. So the seventh day was a sabbath day under the old covenant. But under the new it has become the first day of the week.

again in several translations.

Everything but the greek. Curious. The tense is exactly the same as what we find in passages like, "that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, " (John 12:38). Tell us plainly, was there any possibility that the word of the prophet would not be fulfilled?

Or how bout this passage, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also," (Rom. 4:11). If it possible for Abraham to not be the father of all who believe? Or, is it possible that righteousness minght not be imputed to the righteousness.

One needs to be careful about trying to make odd and unusual theological points based on English translations.

175 posted on 10/13/2006 12:37:28 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: HarleyD; topcat54; Buggman; kerryusama04; Diego1618; DouglasKC; XeniaSt; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg
Excellent sermon. I won't have time to finish but many may tonight.

That's what I get for typing and listening. ;O)

High point of sermon. Our works has nothing to do with the grace of God. Are we keeping God's commandments because of God's grace or are we doing works because we feel its necessary because God saved us?

176 posted on 10/13/2006 12:38:05 PM PDT by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: kerryusama04; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; jude24
Try this one:

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." (Gal. 2:16).

Same aorist passive tense as John 3:17. Is the suggestion in this passage that a person can believe in Jesus without being justified by faith?

It actually says something like "that we may be being justified by faith", but that is clumsy English. Likewise, John 3:17 really means something like "the world may be being saved through Him".

The bottom line is that the English translators did the best they could in conveying what the underlying Greek was saying, but imperfections exist, and to rely on those imperfections ("might" doesn't mean "maybe/maybe not" in this passage) to cloud our theology is pure folly.

177 posted on 10/13/2006 12:54:09 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: HarleyD

Reformed Baptist. I figured you might like him.


178 posted on 10/13/2006 12:58:17 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54; kerryusama04; HarleyD; Diego1618; DouglasKC; XeniaSt; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg
I don't have the time this weekend, but I'll try to listen to it Sunday or Monday and give my thoughts.

In the meantime, though, your two charts still present the fallacy of the false dilemma.

179 posted on 10/13/2006 1:13:40 PM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: HarleyD; topcat54; kerryusama04; Diego1618; DouglasKC; XeniaSt; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg
Are we keeping God's commandments because of God's grace or are we doing works because we feel its necessary because God saved us?

I'll repeat: I do not seek to keep the Torah in order to be saved. I seek to keep the Torah because I am saved, and I want to be like my Savior in every way--and that includes observing the times He observed, eating only what He would eat, etc.

180 posted on 10/13/2006 1:18:01 PM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: HarleyD; Buggman; kerryusama04; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; XeniaSt
No, that isn't what I said. We don't bring ourselves into obedience. It is God who brings us into obedience. That is what the Law of the Spirit is about.

As Buggman pointed out, obedience goes both ways. Scripture is pretty clear that there is an active part of obedience, choice, in what do. And if it were an automatic thing, then there wouldn't be any need for admonishing or overcoming. Scripture would basically be "just wait, and it will be okay.":

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

We "yield ourselves", obey, God's commandments.

181 posted on 10/13/2006 1:27:39 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: topcat54
Are you calling me a liar?

I noticed how you subtly switched the verse to suit your theology.

If you recall, the Sabbath is the 7th day of the week: Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the Sabbath of Jehovah your God.

I suppose you want to debate what the meaning of the word "is" is next. The sentence structure is irrelevant when read in context:

Exo 20:11 For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore Jehovah blessed the Sabbath day, and sanctified it.

or this one

Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work. It is a sabbath to Jehovah in all your dwellings.

Did Jehova bless any day other than the 7th? He worked 6 days and rested on the 7th, then He blessed the day He rested.

Since you believe that Jesus was resurrected on the 1st day, then does that mean He rested on the 7th as well? Wouldn't that be something, huh?

So, if you are declaring that there was absolutely no change in the law from Old Testament to New, and that somehow a bare reading of Acts 17:11 refutes the change of the sabbath details, I'm afraid you are incorrect.

Dude, the 10 Commandments were written in STONE. Why do you guys always jump to the dietary laws when confronted with the truth about the Sabbath? Why don't you point to Rome's idolatry and say "see, that one isn't binding either". Why don't you point to Harry Reid's thievery and say, "that one is gone, too!"? Or Mark Foley's love life? Of Bill Clinton's love life? Or Hinduism? Heck, for that matter, it wasn't even a sin for Saddam to gas the Kurds! The only religion that says they can change the 10 Commandments is Catholicism. In fact, they brag about it. Now, the Bible does mention someone changing laws....

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time.

Everything but the greek.

My electronic Bible does not have a number for "might", thus I don't have the word. Do you? Since I don't have it in the Greek, I posted a bunch of translations. However, my point does not hinge on this one verse. There are a ton of them that indicate it is hard to be saved and that there are some who don't make it.

Joh 3:18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

Before I go on, are you saying that everyone is going to be saved? I don't want to "waste the bandwidth" if you aren't saying that.

Here's what I have for numbered verses, if it is even relevant:
Joh 3:17 For1063 God2316 sent649 not3756 his848 Son5207 into1519 the3588 world2889 to2443 condemn2919 the3588 world;2889 but235 that2443 the3588 world2889 through1223 him846 might be saved.4982

182 posted on 10/13/2006 1:40:57 PM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: topcat54
This:
There are a ton of them that indicate it is hard to be saved and that there are some who don't make it.

Should read:
There are a ton of them that indicate it is hard to stay saved and that there are some who don't make it.

183 posted on 10/13/2006 2:28:18 PM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: DouglasKC; Buggman; kerryusama04; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; XeniaSt; ...
OK, I have Buggman telling me in the post right above yours that:

And now I have you telling me that:

Now I'm confused. Which is it?

If you feel your obedience is in addition to God's grace, then TC is correct; this is what the Judeizers were all about and I would suggest listening to his excellent sermon (the gentleman also picks on the Presbyterians). On the other hand, if your obedience is something you just wish to do to illustrate your love for God then have at it.

I would suggest that since both you and Buggman posted opposite views and you reference him, that a conference is in order to straighten out this confusion. It's no wonder TC is scratching his head.

184 posted on 10/13/2006 7:19:31 PM PDT by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: HarleyD; Buggman; kerryusama04; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; XeniaSt
I would suggest that since both you and Buggman posted opposite views and you reference him, that a conference is in order to straighten out this confusion. It's no wonder TC is scratching his head.

We didn't post opposite views. When I said:

"As Buggman pointed out, obedience goes both ways. Scripture is pretty clear that there is an active part of obedience, choice, in what do"

I was responding to your post #167. I was referencing Buggmans post #170 in reference to obedience, in which he said

"there's a bit of both, Harley. The Spirit transforms us from within, giving us a new heart of flesh on which is written God's Torah--but we also have to continually, day-by-day and decision-by-decision yield to the Spirit, and we always have the choice to disobey.."

You quoted Buggmans post #176, in which he offered that he kept the torah because he was saved.

And for the record, I agree with Buggmans post #176. I keep God's commandments because God has granted me his holy spirit, his grace, and I want to obey and be in line with his will.

To avoid confusion you should have realized that there were two separate topics being discussed.

185 posted on 10/13/2006 8:33:00 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: HarleyD; Buggman; kerryusama04; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; XeniaSt
An addendum to the previous post.

A good example in scripture about obedience in regards to being saved can be found in the parable of the prodigal son.

The prodigal son left (was lost) and lived a hard life. When he finally returned to the father, his fervant desire was to obey his father's commands:

Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

So though the son was given grace by the father he desired to make up for his past behavior by becoming his fathers servant and obeying his commands.

186 posted on 10/13/2006 8:49:04 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; HarleyD; Buggman; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; XeniaSt
I just listened to the sermon that TC posted. I must say that was the most divisive sermon I have ever heard. EVERYBODY is wrong but him. But, here is the money quote at about 40:30 “If your sins are forgiven, if you live by Grace, Dear sisters and Brothers, live it up!” Seriously, salvation is only by the Grace of God. Let there be no doubt. But why did God write the Law? Was He just messing with the Hebrews? And what about this "lawlessness" we are warned of time and again.

Here are some scriptures that the good Pastor must have overlooked in his studies. They shed some light on whether or not a "saved" person must do something:

Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, Jam 2:16 and if one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give them those things which are needful to the body, what good is it? Jam 2:17 Even so, if it does not have works, faith is dead, being by itself. Jam 2:18 But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith from my works. Jam 2:19 You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble. Jam 2:20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Jam 2:22 Do you see how faith worked with his works, and from the works faith was made complete?

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, Behold, you are made whole. Sin no more lest a worse thing come to you.

Joh 8:11 And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I give judgment. Go, and sin no more.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Mat 5:20 For I say to you that unless your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.

Mat 18:3 and said, Truly I say to you, Unless you are converted and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 19:23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, Truly I say to you that a rich man will with great difficulty enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Mat 19:24 And again I say to you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Mat 19:25 When His disciples heard, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked on them and said to them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Mat 19:27 Then answering Peter said to Him, Behold, we have forsaken all and have followed You. Therefore what shall we have? Mat 19:28 And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Mat 19:29 And everyone who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. Mat 19:30 But many who are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Mar 9:47 And if your eye offends you, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes to be cast into hell fire

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Act 14:22 confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God.

I heard once that Billy Graham is the best preacher in the world, so long as you die on the way home from the revival. I absolutely agree that the gift of salvation is free, but we must accept it. We must believe, repent, and be baptized in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. But the challenge then comes on the way home from church. Are you really saved if you just add Jesus to your sinful life? Or will you allow the Holy Spirit to guide you to as righteous a life as one can lead?

Check this one out:

Mat 9:20 And behold, a woman, who had a flow of blood for twelve years, came up behind Him and touched the hem of His garment. Mat 9:21 For she said within herself, If only I shall touch His robe, I will be whole. Mat 9:22 But turning and seeing her, Jesus said, Daughter, be comforted; your faith has saved you. And the woman was saved from that hour.

Now, Jesus says her faith saved her, and it did, but she risked a whole lot touching a Rabbi while being in a constant state of menstruation, huh?

Here you have a filthy, despised Gentile woman risking her kneck to approach the Lord. Again, her works demonstrate her faith!

Mat 15:22 And behold, a woman of Canaan coming out of these borders cried to Him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is grievously vexed with a demon. Mat 15:23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and begged Him, saying, Send her away, for she cries after us. Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mat 15:25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, Lord, help me! Mat 15:26 But He answered and said, It is not good to take the children's bread and to throw it to dogs. Mat 15:27 And she said, True, O Lord; but even the little dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' tables. Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, O woman, great is your faith! So be it to you even as you wish. And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

187 posted on 10/14/2006 10:48:05 AM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: Diego1618

You should have been pinged to 187.


188 posted on 10/14/2006 10:50:15 AM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: topcat54
Topcat,I just can't get over that sermon. Did you hear the part where the Pastor actually calls for a curse on people who don't believe like him? I have been in two churches now that believe they are the "one true church" and I have never heard such a thing.
189 posted on 10/14/2006 11:10:40 AM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: kerryusama04; DouglasKC; Buggman; XeniaSt; HarleyD; topcat54
You should have been pinged to 187.

Thank you...and blessed Sabbath to all.

190 posted on 10/14/2006 2:06:19 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: kerryusama04; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; jude24
Are you calling me a liar?

I don't think so. I just think you are wrong.

Dude, the 10 Commandments were written in STONE.

Fair enough, and I take that to mean the moral principles are still binding on all men. But some of the details are not, e.g., "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you." Has the Lord given you any land recently? Isn't it "literally" referring to the promised land that God was about to give Israel? Didn't even Paul alter the meaning in Eph. 6:2,3?

The point being, of course, that the apostles were charged to upodate and renew the convenat stipuation for the new covenant era. The last day sabbath, just like the "land promise", was pecular to old covenant Israel and was part of what was decaying and passing away, as we are tld in Heb. 8:13.

Clearly from the NT and early church history we know that the apostles had the church worshipping on the first day of the week, not the last. The church had moved from the shadows to the substance, as the early church testimony records:

"And on the Lord's own day gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure." (The Didache)

"Everything but the greek."

My electronic Bible does not have a number for "might",

That's because it is not in the Greek. That was my point. The aorist passive of "save" does not indcate a "maybe it will be saved but maybe it won't" sort of relationship, which is the way you read it. That's not the meaning of what the English translators have given us as "might be saved". As I said, the English is actually closer to "may be being saved", but that does not map well to English grammar.

Before I go on, are you saying that everyone is going to be saved?

Nope, but neither am I saying that the kosmos will be lost.

191 posted on 10/14/2006 3:45:09 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54
Fair enough, and I take that to mean the moral principles are still binding on all men. But some of the details are not, e.g., "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you." Has the Lord given you any land recently? Isn't it "literally" referring to the promised land that God was about to give Israel? Didn't even Paul alter the meaning in Eph. 6:2,3?

Yes, the Lord has given me land recently, and, coincidentally, my folks are considering retiring on it. The Lord has been incredibly good to me, far more than a sinner like me deserves. I pray nightly that I use these blessings to give Him Glory and that He makes my path plain before my face.

Incidentally, my folks are Catholic. Here is a very fine line I must navigate. I must honor them per the commandment, but I also have to live according to this precept:

Mat 10:34 Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. Mat 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be those of his own household. Mat 10:37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

However, the land God gave me is no where near the Holy Land. I ask, does the lattitude and longitude of Israel matter today, or is it more a state of mind?

Gal 6:13 For they themselves, having been circumcised, do not even keep the Law, but they desire you to be circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh. Gal 6:14 But may it never be for me to boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world. Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them and upon the Israel of God.

Heb 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My Laws into their mind and write them in their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

If you are a believer in Christ, isn't it logical that you would want to follow the Commandments of God?

"And on the Lord's own day gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure." (The Didache)

The Didache, huh. I thought you were Sola Scriptura.

192 posted on 10/14/2006 6:54:44 PM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: kerryusama04
If you are a believer in Christ, isn't it logical that you would want to follow the Commandments of God?

Yes, and today the commandments of God are found in the entire Bible, both Old and New Testaments. So when we read about the fact that the church -- baptized Jews and gentiles -- in Acts met on the first day of the week to worship by hearing the apostles teach about Jesus and to break bread (observe the Lord's Supper) and we read nothing about the church -- baptized Jews and gentiles -- meeting on the last day of the week for worship, it tells us something very important about the commandments of God.

The Didache, huh. I thought you were Sola Scriptura.

I am, but I'm not a solo Scriptura person. I respect the testimony of the church through the centuries when it is agreement with the word of God. I have found no ggod reason to challenge the view regarding first day worship. It agrees with all the Bible. That is what I confess.

That appears to be the difference between those who are part of the true catholic (little "c") church, and those who are part of cults, like the one formed by Ellen White and other castoffs from the Millerite movement.

193 posted on 10/14/2006 7:10:24 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54; kerryusama04; Diego1618; Buggman
Yes, and today the commandments of God are found in the entire Bible, both Old and New Testaments. So when we read about the fact that the church -- baptized Jews and gentiles -- in Acts met on the first day of the week to worship by hearing the apostles teach about Jesus and to break bread (observe the Lord's Supper)

Actually your interpretation here isn't correct. Here's why:

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

For starters, it doesn't say they were there for the "Lord's Supper". It says they came together to "break bread", a common term for eating. If the author of Acts wanted to say "Lord's Supper", he would of. But he didn't. So your supposition that it's the "Lord's Supper" is unwarranted.

Second, they met on Saturday night, after the sabbath had ended at sundown:

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

We know it's Saturday night because it's after the sabbath ended at sundown. The literal translation of "first day of the week is "first of the sabbaths". Now this alone shows that the author, Luke, a gentile Christian, still considered the sabbath binding because he is marking time by it. In fact, the "Good News" bible translates the passage as:

Act 20:7 On Saturday evening we gathered together for the fellowship meal. Paul spoke to the people and kept on speaking until midnight, since he was going to leave the next day.

Not a Sunday service at all, but a fellowhip meal. There are countless sabbatarians today, myself included, who meet with the brethren every week after sabbath services for fellowship meals. As a matter of fact, I had one tonight with about 16 members of my church, disciples of Christ. We talked, reasoned together about God, Christ, the scriptures and a variety of other topics for 3 1/2 hours. We literally broke bread, hard dinner rolls. By your reasoning, this would have been an example of Sunday worship by a group of sabbatarians. Nope.

Third:

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

The word translated "preach" in the King James is rendered in other translations variously as "reasoned", "talked", "discoursed", "discussion", and "addressed". Now if you want to make the case that it means "preached" as how a Christian minister preaches, then you have to accept the fact that this very same greek word is used in the following verses:

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with(preached to) them out of the Scriptures,

Act 18:4 And he reasoned in(preached in) the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

So Paul, according to the greek, did the same exact thing on the sabbath MUCH more often then he did on Saturday night.

and we read nothing about the church -- baptized Jews and gentiles -- meeting on the last day of the week for worship, it tells us something very important about the commandments of God.

Absolute nonsense. Example after example has been cited from scripture of sabbath observance and worship of God on the sabbath by Christians.

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

When does Paul preach? Why, we've already seen that it was his custom to preach ON THE SABBATH.

Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

The whole city comes to hear the word of God preached on the day that God commanded his followers to gather on...the sabbath.

We've been over this before. You're whole argument is built on the shifting sand of denial and suppositions. The entire argument of sabbatarians is based on the commadments of God, the creator of the universe. We win.

194 posted on 10/14/2006 11:22:53 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: topcat54
I am, but I'm not a solo Scriptura person.

Solo Scriptura is nothing but poor grammar. Latin words have gender. a=feminine o=masculine.

I respect the testimony of the church through the centuries when it is agreement with the word of God. I have found no ggod reason to challenge the view regarding first day worship. It agrees with all the Bible. That is what I confess.

TC, if I post any more scriptures that plainly refute switching God's Sabbath to Rome's, I risk infringing on copywrites. The fact is, you keep moving the bar. When I post this:

Act 13:42 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath. Act 13:43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God. Act 13:44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.

You say "well, they weren't Baptized". But you post this at other points:

Act 10:14 But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean." Act 10:15 Again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy."

Which you know full well ends up with Gentile believers receiving the Holy Spirit before they were Baptized!

Act 10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" Act 10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Then you say that, "well, Sunday has been the "Christian" Sabbath for 2000 years." Well, we are coming up on the 1900th aniversary of the first time Sunday worship was documented, but just because someting is old, doesn't make it right:

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

At any rate, if you are going to use the longevity of the error to justify the error, why are you Protestant? The logical conclusion of that line of thinking ought to lead you to marionism, transubstantiation, infant Baptism, the Sacramnent of Confession, et. al. Are you prepared to admit your error and convert to the One Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, and adjective generating Church?

That appears to be the difference between those who are part of the true catholic (little "c") church, and those who are part of cults, like the one formed by Ellen White and other castoffs from the Millerite movement.

It warms my heart to see such an attack, TC. There is a HUGE difference between Ellen White and John Calvin. That difference is body count. I can't believe that you guys, in all seriousness, take the theology of Grace Alone from a man who actually murdered people who disagreed with him. How exactly was that "trading up" from Rome?

195 posted on 10/15/2006 6:57:18 AM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: DouglasKC; kerryusama04; Buggman; topcat54
We know it's Saturday night because it's after the sabbath ended at sundown.

And always another good indicator is this. A comparison of King James to Young's Literal.

The "King James" says it is the "first day of the week." "Young's literal" says it is the "first of the week"....both correct, but "first" is more descriptive of the first day beginning at sundown and Paul continuing to preach until midnight.

Many lights being on would indicate an evening, after Sabbath fellowship meal, as they are breaking bread and listening to Paul speak..... until midnight. We also know that the upper room had windows to allow light to enter (if there had been any) because a young man went to sleep and fell out one. (Now we know why the Holy Spirit inspired Luke to tell us the lights were on!)

Young's Literal Translation.

As a young man, my Grandparents (both sets from the old country) inviting someone over for dinner would say, "Come and Break Bread with Us."

Excellent post, Douglas!

196 posted on 10/15/2006 10:19:23 AM PDT by Diego1618
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To: DouglasKC; kerryusama04; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; jude24
For starters, it doesn't say they were there for the "Lord's Supper". It says they came together to "break bread", a common term for eating. If the author of Acts wanted to say "Lord's Supper", he would of. But he didn't. So your supposition that it's the "Lord's Supper" is unwarranted.

Sorry, 1 Cor. 10:16 tells us precisely what was meant by the phrase "break bread" in the context of the church gathering, "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?"

One other reason we know this was the Lord's Supper and not simply the Jewish passover was the use of the Greek word artos which refers to leavened bread.

We know it's Saturday night because it's after the sabbath ended at sundown.

If it was after sundown on Saturday, then it would be "Sunday" according to our reckoning. The "first day of the week" would have run from subdown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday.

So Paul, according to the greek, did the same exact thing on the sabbath MUCH more often then he did on Saturday night.

Of course the difference, which you seem to be missing, is that he did it in the Jewish synagogues -- among unbaptized Jews -- on the sabbath, but he did it in the church -- with the baptized Jewish and gentile brethren -- on the first day.

We've been over this before.

Yep, we have. Your arguments are no better now than they were before, and these same arguments have been rejected by the church for 2000 years simply for this reason: they do not fit will all that the Bible teaches on the subject.

197 posted on 10/15/2006 11:05:52 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: kerryusama04; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; jude24
TC, if I post any more scriptures that plainly refute switching God's Sabbath to Rome's, I risk infringing on copywrites.

My friend, I'm sorry you cannot see this, but you have not posted one single verse that teaches the church -- baptized Jews and gentiles -- ever came together to worship on the Jewish last day sabbath. Not one!

The only thing you have done is to prove that unconverted Jews continued to worship on the last day sabbath as was their custom, and that Paul went into their assemblies to preach Christ to them.

Until you can manufacture such a verse to the contrary, I think you ought to admit the case.

198 posted on 10/15/2006 11:12:19 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: Diego1618; DouglasKC; kerryusama04; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
correct, but "first" is more descriptive of the first day beginning at sundown and Paul continuing to preach until midnight.

But it was still the "first day of the week", not the last, according to Jewish reckoning. The last day was from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.

This contrivance only indicates how desperate the last day sabbatarians have become.

199 posted on 10/15/2006 11:16:59 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: kerryusama04
It warms my heart to see such an attack, TC. There is a HUGE difference between Ellen White and John Calvin.

Well, I'm glad you are admitting you are a cultist after the likes of EG White and other former Millerites, and your disdain for the catholic (universal) church.

from a man who actually murdered people who disagreed with him.

Since Calvin never murdered anyone (according to the historians) I have no clue what you are talking about. And I'm sure neither do you.

200 posted on 10/15/2006 11:26:26 AM PDT by topcat54
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