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Mutiny in the Big Apple - New York Archdiocese
Whispers in the Loggia ^ | J+M+J 13 Oct A.D. 2006 | Rocco Palmo

Posted on 10/13/2006 5:48:15 AM PDT by Maeve

Mutiny in the Big Apple *EXCLUSIVE -- MUST CREDIT WHISPERS*

In 1983, the new bishop of Scranton was consulted on the appointment of a new archbishop of New York.

John O'Connor was familiar with the See given his long service as a Navy chaplain, culminating with his four years as auxiliary bishop to the Military Vicar, Cardinal Terence Cooke. O'Connor later made it known that, while the new archbishop would inevitably face some difficulties, he opined that none would be due to the New York presbyterate, who served well, loved the church and were loyal to their archbishop.

Less than seven months after his installation in Scranton, Bishop O'Connor was promoted to the Big Apple. He may only be gone six years, but how times change.

Long-simmering tensions among a broad cross-section of the archdiocese's priests broke into the open today with the circulation of an anonymous letter under the authorship of a group calling itself "A Committee of Concerned Clergy for the Archdiocese of New York." Saying that, "At no time has the relationship between the Ordinary and the priests of the Archdiocese been so fractured and seemingly hopeless as it is now," the authors have urged their confreres to lodge "a formal vote of 'NO Confidence'" (emphases original) in Cardinal Edward M. Egan, who became archbishop in 2000. Using strong language throughout the 950-word missive, the authors allege a widespread finding that Egan's relationship with his priests has been "defined by dishonesty, deception, disinterest and disregard."

The cardinal turns 75 on 2 April, when he must submit his letter of resignation to Pope Benedict XVI.

In its entirety, the letter and accompanying ballot are published below for the first time outside of the New York presbyterate. As he recovers from a September knee-replacement, the cardinal's intense displeasure at the move has already become known.

Joseph Zwilling, director of communications for the archdiocese, declined comment on the document.

***************************************

October 2006

Dear Brother Priest:

A Committee of Concerned Clergy for the Archdiocese of New York has met to discuss the critical condition of the Archdiocese of New York. As you would understand, because of the severely vindictive nature of Cardinal Egan,this committee must remain anonymous. This letter is being sent to many priests throughout the Archdiocese so that at each Vicariate meeting a formal vote of “NO Confidence” can be exercised with regard to Cardinal Edward Egan in his role as Archbishop of New York. As you know, the collective memory of the presbyterate cannot recall a time in recent history when the morale of priests has been so broken and low. Some of our elderly priests can well recall the Cardinal Spellman years. Many remember the tenure of Cardinal Cooke and certainly everyone remembers Cardinal O’Connor. At no time has the relationship between the Ordinary and the priests of the Archdiocese been so fractured and seemingly hopeless as it is now.

Since his arrival in New York, the Cardinal has given his time, attention and interest to matters financial while paying little or no attention to the spiritual needs and concerns of the priests and faithful of the Archdiocese. During the last six years the Priests of the Archdiocese of New York have been patient, understanding, tolerant and loyal. Several attempts have been made to open avenues of communication with the Cardinal but to avail. During the last six years, the Cardinal’s relations with the Priests of New York have been defined by dishonesty, deception, disinterest and disregard. Far too many of our brothers can speak personally of the arrogant and cavalier manner in which they have been treated by the Cardinal. Early in his tenure, the cruel and ruthless way in which several priests who served on the seminary faculty were dismissed, was an adumbration of how many other priests would also be treated. Time and again, the Cardinal fails to be the Father that every bishop must be to his priests.

With regard to important policies and decisions that impact upon the welfare of the Archdiocese, it is evident that the Cardinal does not seek advice or counsel from the many competent and experienced priests who so faithfully serve as pastors and members of his chancery staff. Instead, it is regrettably and seemingly apparent that the Cardinal relies on the advice of his priest-secretary [Msgr Gregory Mustaciuolo] who enjoys a most limited and meager pastoral experience.

The Fifth Anniversary of September 11th was a sad reminder of the Cardinal’s decision to leave New York only two days after the attack, during a time when the city desperately needed a spiritual leader. How sad, painful and disappointing it was to hear the tabloids referring to the then Mayor Giuliani as the “Shepherd of the City”. Since that time, the Cardinal has continued to fail in his role as Shepherd. Pope John Paul II referred to New York as the Capital of the World. How unfortunate it is that the voice of the Archbishop of New York is almost never heard in that “Capital”. The Cardinal demonstrates an unnatural fear of the media and he forfeits the great opportunity to employ the media as a means of addressing the many contemporary questions of faith and morals. It is unthinkable that in this millennium a Successor to the Apostles would shrink from such a valuable opportunity for evangelization and hide himself within the walls of his residence.

Sadly, it is evident that this Cardinal is unable to deal with the complexities, problems and challenges of an Archdiocese of the magnitude and diversity of New York. For these reasons and more, the Priests of the Archdiocese of New York must express a vote of NO CONFIDENCE. Such a vote would encourage the Papal Nuncio and the Holy Father to strongly consider accepting the Cardinal’s resignation in April,2007, when he reaches the age of retirement, rather than at a future and uncertain date before his 80th birthday, as can often be the case with retiring Cardinals. The search for a new Archbishop should begin sooner rather than later. Rome must know that the priests and people of New York desperately need a Bishop who will be “strong, loving and wise” (II Timothy: 1:7): a Bishop who will love his priests, seeing them as his spiritual sons and faithful assistants: a Bishop who will begin the healing that is so desperately needed in this Archdiocese: a Bishop who will preach and teach without fear of seeing his name in a newspaper: a Bishop who will truly see holiness in Truth.

The Committee suggests that at each vicariate meeting a secret ballot be taken in which each priest who is present could vote. It was thought that only priests and no deacons should participate in this vote. The votes should be counted at that meeting and the tally registered on the enclosed form. The form should be signed by two witnesses and a copy sent to each of the Vicars General. It would be incumbent upon the Vicars General to report the vote to the Papal Nuncio. At this important and critical moment, let us move forward with prayerful courage.

After prayeful consideration, I cast my vote as:

NO CONFIDENCE in Cardinal Egan: _____

CONFIDENCE in Cardinal Egan:_____

ABSTENTION: ______

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Each Vicariate should send a copy of this form to each of the Vicars General-

Vicariate: ____________________________

Date of Meeting:________________________

Number of Priests in attendance: ____________

Number voting - NO CONFIDENCE: __________

Number voting – CONFIDENCE: _____________

Number voting – ABSTENTION: _____________

These vote was taken and counted in the presence of all those in attendance at the Vicariate meeting. Witnessed by:

___________________ __________________


TOPICS: Catholic
KEYWORDS: archdiocese; catholic; egan; ny
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Well, there it is. (Thanks, Rocco.)
1 posted on 10/13/2006 5:48:15 AM PDT by Maeve
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To: ventana; NYer; Pyro7480; Salvation; sandyeggo

Pinging...


2 posted on 10/13/2006 5:49:08 AM PDT by Maeve
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To: wideawake; kstewskis; sockmonkey; ArrogantBustard; HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity; ELS


3 posted on 10/13/2006 5:52:52 AM PDT by Maeve
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To: sitetest; Carolina; AnAmericanMother; Tax-chick; Desdemona; american colleen; eastsider

pinging to the fray....


4 posted on 10/13/2006 5:59:52 AM PDT by Maeve
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To: nanetteclaret; marshmallow; onyx; BlessedBeGod; nickcarraway; RobbyS

"And a jolly good day to you" ping.


5 posted on 10/13/2006 6:04:24 AM PDT by Maeve
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To: Maeve; All

OK, how about some background on this one?


6 posted on 10/13/2006 6:04:29 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother; ventana

Well, he's a Cardinal Archbishop of New York, and I cannot think of single good thing to say about him. He forced the Armenian Catholics out of their Cathedral (St. Ann's) so he could sell it and make money off of the land. That's for starters...


7 posted on 10/13/2006 6:06:54 AM PDT by Maeve
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To: Maeve

Dear Maeve,

I have nothing good to say about this Prince of the Church, and thus, shall endeavor to minimize what I say.


sitetest


8 posted on 10/13/2006 6:11:09 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

You are always a Catholic gentleman. I admire that. (Me I like a street fight ... but there we go...)


9 posted on 10/13/2006 6:12:06 AM PDT by Maeve
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To: fatima; AKA Elena; Domestic Church; B-Chan

pinging...


10 posted on 10/13/2006 6:13:12 AM PDT by Maeve
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To: narses

Maybe you have an opinion about this???


11 posted on 10/13/2006 6:20:28 AM PDT by Maeve
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To: Maeve

Thanks. He's on my Rosary bishops list (for conversion before it's too late).


12 posted on 10/13/2006 6:25:48 AM PDT by nanetteclaret (Our Lady's Hat Society)
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To: Maeve
OK.....what actually is it that is in dispute here??

The cardinal is too liberal..............too conservative.......too homosexual friendly ........too anti-homosexual......??

What actually is their beef with him??

All I can gather from the letter is that they simply don't like the guy. I'm not defending Egan. It's just that the letter comes across as a whine.

If he's screwed up, document it. Points a), b) and c) etc.

This tells me nothing.

13 posted on 10/13/2006 6:28:53 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: Maeve; TheRake; rogator; kellynla; redgirlinabluestate; DadOfTwoMarines; aimee5291; GatorGirl; ...

+

If you want on (or off) this Catholic and Pro-Life ping list, let me know!



Schism is coming. The SSPX has built a facility to retrain N.O. Priests in the Latin Mass and orthodoxy. Rome is ready to help. The Lavender Mafia is going NUTS. This is the last hope for the Anglican Church world wide, as they get thousands of 'liberal' and 'former' Catholic clergy. A fair trade, as we will soon get hundreds of their Orthodox clerics.

The battle is joined and the Paraclete gave as a truly Holy Father to help set the Church in order. Deo Gratias!


14 posted on 10/13/2006 6:31:38 AM PDT by narses (St Thomas says “lex injusta non obligat”)
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To: marshmallow

In our normal discourse, they haven't said enough. In Vatican-speak they have almost said too much. I suppose they could have written that he's a money-grubbin' homo who makes a mockery of the faith, but that would have really ensured he stays until he's 80.


15 posted on 10/13/2006 6:31:50 AM PDT by Maeve
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To: Maeve

I'd vote "no confidence" in Egan. He was a bad appointment, IMO.


16 posted on 10/13/2006 6:36:59 AM PDT by Antoninus (Ruin a Democrat's day...help re-elect Rick Santorum.)
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To: narses

Has anyone met some of the Anglican priest converts to the RC Church??????????

Lavender indeed - even some of the "married" ones.


17 posted on 10/13/2006 6:38:18 AM PDT by TaxachusettsMan
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To: Maeve; Liz; eastsider; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...

Thank you, Maeve, for posting this thread! The low morale of priests in this Archdiocese is pervasive, and felt around the entire state of NY.


18 posted on 10/13/2006 6:50:29 AM PDT by NYer ("It is easier for the earth to exist without sun than without the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.” PPio)
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To: Maeve

is there a reader's digest version of this?


19 posted on 10/13/2006 6:59:05 AM PDT by the invisib1e hand (* nuke * the * jihad *)
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To: marshmallow; AnAmericanMother; narses; Maeve; All
OK.....what actually is it that is in dispute here??

The dispute is that Egan is not a shepherd. He does little of nothing. The following article may help shed some light on the situation.


Cardinal's Low Profile Attracts Attention

BY GABRIELLE BIRKNER - Staff Reporter of the Sun
July 28, 2006

When President Bush deployed the first veto of his presidency on a bill that would expand federal funding for embryonic stem cell research last week, Edward Cardinal Egan was not available for comment. A few weeks earlier, after New York's highest court upheld a ban on same-sex marriage, the cardinal, spending two weeks in Vatican City for a series of meetings, was silent.

Had Cardinal Egan's predecessor, John Cardinal O'Connor, been at the helm of the powerful Archdiocese of New York, some said, decisions about embryonic stem cell research or gay unions, both of which the Catholic Church explicitly opposes, might have warranted a public statement, even a press conference where reporters could all but count on a witticism or two.

Cardinal Egan is 74, and papal law requires bishops to submit an offer of resignation at age 75, when the pope can accept or reject the proposition.

If Benedict XVI were to review Cardinal Egan's record now, he'd find that the cardinal has erased the archdiocese of New York's $20 million annual operating deficit, in part by making tough decisions such as closing 16 diocese schools. He'd also find that Cardinal Egan, the former bishop of Bridgeport, Conn., keeps a more modest public profile than did O'Connor, who led the Archdiocese of New York for 16 years until his death in 2000.

The sprawling archdiocese is home to about 2.5 million Catholics, and comprises Manhattan, Staten Island, and the Bronx, in addition to Dutchess, Orange, Putnam, Rockland, Sullivan, Ulster, and Westchester counties.

The editor in chief of a New York-based religion journal, First Things, Father Richard John Neuhaus, said the cardinal's priority seems to be reconciling church finances. He praised the cardinal for facilitating a smooth church realignment, including school closings, which has been "relatively peaceful" when compared to diocese shake-ups in cities like Boston, Detroit, and Cleveland.

Father Neuhaus, speaking by phone from Krakow, Poland, where he teaches during the summer, said he knows of few people who have cultivated an intimate personal relationship with Cardinal Egan. "He seems to have great confidence in his own judgment," he said. "New York is the capital of the world, and it's certainly the communications capital of the world. It strikes many people as strange that the institutional leadership personified in the archbishop of New York is largely absent from public life. I, too, think that is missed."

Being an extrovert is not a prerequisite for Cardinal Egan's job, an area Catholic lay leader, Peter Flanigan, who lives in Manhattan, said. "Cardinal Egan wouldn't get up with a Yankees' baseball cap while giving a homily at St. Patrick's Cathedral, and he wouldn't stand on a soapbox at the strike of Daily News typesetters," Mr. Flanigan said, referring to two of O'Connor's headline-making feats. "It is a legitimate comment that Cardinal Egan is less gregarious, and that people find him somewhat less easy to relate to, but I have always found him to be an extremely warm and compassionate human being."

A founder and board member of two programs that subsidize Catholic School tuition for poor, inner-city students, Mr. Flanigan has worked closely with Cardinal Egan since the latter was the New York Archdiocese's Vicar for Education in the 1980s. Mr. Flanigan hailed Cardinal Egan's efforts to confront the debt that the church had incurred under the leadership of his predecessor. "Cardinal Egan turned that around, cutting expenses and raising money," he said. "Neither of those seem like very pastoral activities, but they are the responsibility of the cardinal."

Calling Cardinal Egan "a good CEO," another New York Catholic who had spent 17 years as a brother in the Marist order before retiring, Francis Sheridan, said the cardinal's leadership style reflects his formation, working for 14 years as a Vatican Court judge. "He was trained in the bureaucracy of the Vatican," Mr. Sheridan said. "He wasn't trained as a pastor. I don't think he looks for wisdom from the bottom — not from the lay people and not from the clergy."

An archdiocese spokesman, Joseph Zwilling, said Cardinal Egan's personality and leadership style differ from his predecessor. "Any religious leader needs to be true to himself, and be genuine and sincere in his own beliefs," he said. "Cardinal O'Connor wouldn't have been successful trying to be like Cardinal Cooke," — who preceded him — "and Cardinal Egan is not Cardinal O'Connor. He is who he is."

Mr. Zwilling said the cardinal is committed to improving the financial wellbeing of the diocese and to moving resources to stay current with demographic shifts. The archdiocese eradicated its $20 million annual operating deficit within two years of Cardinal Egan's appointment and is now paying down the money it owes to the church's loan fund, he said.

Mayor Koch was close friends with O'Connor — the two dined together about six times a year, and, co-authored "His Eminence and Hizzoner: A Candid Exchange," in 1989. He said he has great respect for the current cardinal. "He doesn't have the same charisma, but intelligence, courage, integrity — he has all of that," Mr. Koch said. "Did people respond more warmly to one over the other? Yes, to Cardinal O'Connor. But do people have a sense of respect and affection for Cardinal Egan? Yes, it's just different."

It's a mistake to judge Cardinal Egan by the "headlines he makes," a spokesman for the New York State Catholic Conference, Dennis Poust, said. "There is no single mold of a cardinal," he said. "It's like corporations. Some have charismatic CEOs like Lee Iacocca, and some have quieter, behind-the-scenes leaders. That doesn't necessarily make one more effective than the other."

Howard Rubenstein, whose public relations firm handles press for the archdiocese, said the contrast between Cardinal Egan and O'Connor is marked. "Possibly, more people had personal access to the other cardinal," he said. "It's two absolutely different styles. Same religion, different people."

Mr. Rubenstein applauded Cardinal Egan for his absolute devotion to the church, his graciousness, quiet humor, and humility. "I'll say, ‘Why don't you do this or that?' and he'll say, ‘I'd rather not,'" said Mr. Rubenstein, at whose home the cardinal, a classical pianist, has played. "I'm in the publicity business, and I'm impressed with his modesty. He holds back. He's not a showboat."

A Catholic priest and theology professor at the University of Notre Dame, Richard McBrien, said Cardinal Egan "is obviously different from Cardinal O'Connor in preferring anonymity over the public stage. Indeed, he seems to have made only a slight impact in New York and even less nationally. I assume that's exactly the way he wants it."

The pastor emeritus of Our Lady of the Sacred Heart in Tappan, N.Y., John Dwyer, who has met with Cardinal Egan four times, said though the leader may not wow crowds, one-on-one or in small groups he is warm and personable. "He does the job as well as you can do it, but the expectations are somewhat unrealistic," said. "We look back fondly on the past, and say, ‘Why can't he be like his predecessor?' It's the incumbent that takes the heat, and only later can we say that he did a good job — all things considered."

A spokesman for the conservative Catholic lay organization, Opus Dei, Peter Bancroft, said the cardinal is competent and likeable. "People who have had an opportunity to talk to him know he's very personable and kind," he said.

At Fordham University's Francis and Ann Curran Center for Catholic Studies, the co-director, James Fisher, said some of the cardinal's detractors might be forgetting the controversies that at times marked O'Connor's career. Shortly after he was appointed to lead the New York Archdiocese, there was a public feud with then Governor Cuomo, after O'Connor said he would not rule out excommunicating the governor because the politician favored abortion rights; and a comment conflating abortion with the Holocaust, angering Jewish leaders.

"There's always a tendency to soften things in retrospect," Mr. Fisher said. Despite a rocky start, Catholic-Jewish relations flourished during O'Connor's tenure. The cardinal was recognized for his efforts to establish diplomatic relations between the Vatican and Israel, which were formalized in 1993; and for his public statement to the Jewish community six years later, expressing "abject sorrow for any member of the Catholic Church, high or low, including myself, who may have harmed you or your forebears in any way."

The national director of the Anti-Defamation League, Abraham Foxman, praised O'Connor's commitment to bolstering the relationship between Catholics and Jews. "That's a hard act to follow," he said.

Mr. Foxman said Cardinal Egan's May address at the Jewish Center, an Orthodox synagogue on Manhattan's Upper West Side, lacked substance. In the speech, the Catholic leader joked about acquiring a taste for smoked salmon and gefilte fish. "His presence, being invited and accepting the invitation, is more significant that the message he delivered," Mr. Foxman said.

Cardinal Egan, while more reserved, is a good friend of the Jewish community, Mr. Foxman said. "He's not demonstrably warm and fuzzy, and that's okay as long as the essence is respect and appreciation for each other," he said. "That's what really counts — not theatrics. I know some people miss the theatrics."

The Curran Center's Mr. Fisher said he does not see the contrast in personality or leadership style as emblematic of any major shift within the Catholic Church or the Archdiocese of New York, where the cardinal's residence has long been known as "the Powerhouse." "There's no reason to think we won't see another highly charismatic cardinal in New York," he said. "I don't think we're necessarily moving away from that."

But others say the era of the enchanting, larger-than-life cardinals with ostensibly unlimited access to the political powers-that-be is over. The editor of the biweekly Catholic opinion journal, Commonweal, Paul Baumann, said the shift has everything to do with the demographic profile of America's Catholics. "It has changed so dramatically, "Mr. Baumann said."It's no longer an ethnic subculture; it's no longer largely an urban community — like everyone else, they've taken off for the suburbs; it's no longer a largely poor and working class community, for whom the Catholic Church historically provided schooling, and jobs and hospitals. That world has disappeared, and with it that temporal political power of the cardinal."

20 posted on 10/13/2006 7:07:44 AM PDT by NYer ("It is easier for the earth to exist without sun than without the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.” PPio)
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To: TaxachusettsMan
Has anyone met some of the Anglican priest converts to the RC Church?

I only know of a couple whom I knew back in my High Church Anglican days. But they're both very holy men. Do you know how many Anglican priest converts there are by any chance?

21 posted on 10/13/2006 7:13:21 AM PDT by Carolina
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To: narses; Zetman; ninenot; sittnick; Tax-chick; bornacatholic; Convert from ECUSA; ...
Since SSPX was founded by miscreant and now long dead and excommunicated Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre to spit in the face of John Paul II and to destroy papal supremacy, schism is sure to follow wherever SSPX goes. Illicit bishops Fellay and Mallerais and Williamson and whoever else is an SSPX bishop pretend that they are merely waiting for Pope Benedict XVI to surrender the Church itself to its SSPX enemies. SSPX is hardly in a position to "retrain Novus Ordo priests in .... orthodoxy" since SSPX is a schism and its leaders were justly excommunicated by John Paul II.

I understand that you have had a bad time in the northwest under the likes of former Seattle Archbishop Hunthausen but that does NOT justify cuddling up to the little band of vicious SSPX schismatics who are no better than Hunthausen in their opposition to papal authority, miserable excuses for Catholics (to the point where Ecclesia Dei and their excommunications and the declaration of their schism was necessitated by their rebellious attitude, violation of priestly vows as to their priests and unauthorized bishops and general anti-Catholic behavior).

As to learning the Tridentine liturgy, this is not nuclear physics. In the Hartford Archdiocese, the priests are trained by an absolutely Catholic layman who is Master of Ceremonies at Sacred Heart Church in New Haven. In Oakland and Rockford and probably many other dioceses, priests have been easily trained without the intervention of the Church's SSPX enemies. Centuries of Catholic altar boys learned with relative ease their part of the Tridentine Mass from their parish priests. Priests are educated adults. Those willing to learn and say the Tridentine Mass will have no difficulty. Actually Catholic orders like the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, and the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (founded by SSPX priests who finally figured out that they should return to the Roman Catholic Church if they wanted to be, ummmm, Roman Catholics) can train the diocesan priests. In any event, we do not want our priests trained in ANYTHING by those whose ideas and resultant behavior have caused them to be justly declared schismatic and excommunicated.

No one died and left the SSPX in charge of disciplining the Church or the pope or the papacy. Rather the contrary. Make a timeless example of them and their punishment.

IF the Vatican should ever allow these creatures to crawl back into the Church, may their illicit bishops be permanently silenced and cloistered and their priests as well unless and until they fully confess and renounce their ecclesiastical crimes. Likewise any who rebel from the liturgical or ecclesiastical left.

I prefer the Tridentine and would very much like to see it become again the normative Mass of the Roman Catholic Church. Novus Ordo should be tolerated until it dies on its own (as it surely will) and with the proviso that abuses not be allowed. Restore the high altars and altar rails and tabernacles. Severely punish ANY priest who for ANY reason violates orthodoxy or vows or liturgy. Restore order. Save the most severe and humiliating punishments for the illicit bishops and ringleaders clerical and lay.

Did you mean that Rome is ready to "help" SSPX to train our priests? How generous of those excommunicated to be willing to accept Rome's "help!"

The battle has always been joined. John Paul II was given to us as was Benedict XVI and John Paul I and several hundred others---each and every one of them, just by virtue of election, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth. You did not mean that John Paul II was not a "truly Holy Father" simply because of his excommunication of the Lefebvrite miscreant schismatics, right???? His are the shoes of the Fisherman in which Benedict XVI now walks. No revisionist history!

The Lavender Mafia are often quite in love with the smells and bells and classical music and high art of the traditional Roman Catholic Church. It is obedience to the Church's leaders and standards that escapes them and, in that, they are quite similar to SSPX and such. There is or was an Anglican "High Mass" at Christ Church on Broadway in New Haven, Connecticut, in the heart of the Yale area, which was sooooooo traditional that visiting Catholic trads attended and participated without realizing that it was a Protestant (High Anglican) Church. In New Haven, we locals also knew that it was tres lavender as well.

Of course, the Lavender Mafia needs to be investigated and punished as vigorously as the SSPX needs to be. Rome doesn't have to choose between them. Rome can deal with all of them with enthusiasm and vigor and due severity.

You are being delusional as to the Anglicans as well. The Vicki Gene types and wing will get no benefit from the influx of rebellious liberals willing to trade Catholic truth for apostasy and trendiness. Most of the worldwide Anglican community is in a state of suffering utter disgust in response to the Vicki Gene types. This is particularly true of the Anglicans in Africa. Look for them to come to Rome as have many of the Anglo-American conservatives in Anglicanism already.

As to Edward Cardinal Egan, he is a failed experiment. Rome should pick up his resignation instantly on April 2, 2007, as an obvious message and appoint a superb successor (with a bullwhip and a smile and the temperament to use both) on April 3, 2007, lest the NY archdiocesan priests imagine that it is for them to decide who Egan's successor should be.

22 posted on 10/13/2006 7:45:42 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: AnAmericanMother
Egan is criticized for several reasons:

(1) He is definitely more of an administrator and financial manager than a charismatic pastor. This is good and bad.

(2) He is criticized by not doing enough about the molestation scandal, which is demonstrably true. His Brooklyn suffragan was one of the most egregious coddlers of these types and he failed to put him in check.

(3) He has displayed a complete indifference to the Latin Mass community - not overt hostility, but complete indifference.

(4) Priests criticize him because they feel that he only contacts them over financial matters, insisting that they get their ducks in a row. A lot of this is personal resentment on the part of priests as well - the ones who have not done a good job of running their parishes, and there are many, are unhappy.

So there are reasons to criticize Egan and reasons to acknowledge that he has served well.

23 posted on 10/13/2006 7:56:33 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: Carolina

I've met about a dozen (at a conference), and I must say that, while their doctrinal orthodoxy and devotion to the non-negotiable role of the Papacy (and to the person of the Holy Father, John Paul II at the time) were impressive and even inspiring, I was somewhat surprised at the great attention - over-attention, I thought - to cassocks, shoulder-capes, birettas, surplices with lace trimmings and neck-ribbons, and a general pre-occupation with fussy detail that was not just good ritual concern but downright effeminate (mannerisms and joking, too - catty criticisms of others, giggling over liturgical practices of the Novus Ordo), etc. etc.

Very off-putting.


24 posted on 10/13/2006 8:06:31 AM PDT by TaxachusettsMan
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To: AnAmericanMother; Maeve

Let's not forget that Egan eliminated/banned/whatever exorcists from operating in the NY Archdiocese.


25 posted on 10/13/2006 8:24:47 AM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: Maeve; 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ..


26 posted on 10/13/2006 8:32:02 AM PDT by Coleus (Abortion and Euthanasia, Don't Democrats and Pro-life Republicans who vote for Title X just kill ya!)
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To: Maeve

Can we fill out our own "Confidence" votes for other Bishops/Archbishops? I'll start the list:

Mahoney
Hubbard
Flynn
Brown


27 posted on 10/13/2006 8:44:30 AM PDT by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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To: Maeve

Wait... these are all NO CONFIDENCE votes.


28 posted on 10/13/2006 8:44:57 AM PDT by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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To: nanetteclaret
That's wonderful of you. I feel like a heel
29 posted on 10/13/2006 8:46:16 AM PDT by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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To: wideawake
4) Priests criticize him because they feel that he only contacts them over financial matters, insisting that they get their ducks in a row. A lot of this is personal resentment on the part of priests as well - the ones who have not done a good job of running their parishes, and there are many, are unhappy.

When I lived in Orange County, NY, Father discussed this perception of the Cardinal with the congregation. It was about two years ago. He, Father, had just met the Cardinal at breakfast to discuss the Archbishop's Appeal. He said that the Cardinal was caring and took interest in his priests, however he was not a warm fuzzy person.

The Cardinal had remembered Father's name and parish from meeting him at a golf game over two years before the breakfast. Father was impressed with him, and found very little that the "angry priests" said was true. It must also be stressed that the parish was (and still is) a tithing parish (sermons on tithing, people coming in and talking about it, notes in the bulletin), we no longer had any debt, and we always were over our goals on the Archbishops Appeal. This kind of financial management may be one of the reasons why the Cardinal was warm to Father.
30 posted on 10/13/2006 9:09:55 AM PDT by Talking_Mouse (wahhabi delenda est)
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To: Maeve
Saint Ignatius is turning over in his grave:

From his Letter to the Ephesians -

4. Hence it is fitting for you to set yourselves in harmony with the mind of the bishop, as indeed you do. For your noble presbytery, worthy of God, is attuned to the bishop, even as the strings to a lyre. And thus by means of your accord and harmonious love Jesus Christ is sung. Form yourselves one and all into a choir,[8] that blending in concord and taking the keynote of God, you may sing in unison with one voice through Jesus Christ to the Father, that he may hear you and recognize you through your good deeds to be members of His Son. Therefore it is profitable for you to live in blameless unity, that you may always enjoy communion with God....

Obviously this is not a divinely inspired text, however, the esteem due St. Ignatius should give us pause when there is open group rebellion against a bishop by the clergy.

If the bishop is financially minded, then he's financially minded. Whereas there may be legitimate concerns that his spiritual shepherding leaves something to be desired, as in any unit that demands cohesion (e.g., military), creating or deepening a fracture by further scandalizing the diocese with a no-confidence vote seems to be a bad idea for everyone.

31 posted on 10/13/2006 9:13:37 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever ("My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9))
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To: nanetteclaret
Thanks. He's on my Rosary bishops list (for conversion before it's too late).

Cardinal Egan needs a conversion? How do you know? Because he has poor social skills? Maybe he's doing God's will in concentrating his work on protecting the archdiocese from financial ruin. I don't know what the specific concerns are of these priests. Maybe they're legitimate, maybe they're not. A no-confidence vote is mutiny. Even in the case of someone as hopeless as Cardinal Mahoney, the office of archbishop still commands due respect...

32 posted on 10/13/2006 9:21:05 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever ("My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9))
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To: Jaded

My list is up to 27 - guess it will be 28 with the addition of Brown.

Here's my list so far. I picked up these names, just in reading different threads, so I hope none are on which shouldn't be. My own Bishop is included because I know the state of our Diocese first hand! In no particular order:

Abp. Jadot
Clark
Hubbard
DuMaine
Ferrerio
Flores
Gerety
Imesch
Sylstad
Favalora
McCarrick
Maida
Myers
Trautmann
Kelly
Law
Pilarczyk
Untener
Sullivan
Weakland
Mahony
Lynch
Loverde
Keller
Grahmann
Egan
Flynn
Brown

Here is a great Novena. I got it from an EWTN mailing and prayed it before the feast of Our Lady of the Rosary. It is really fitting. Maybe if we all prayed this Novena every day when we say our Rosary...

Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, in these times of such brazen impiety, show your power with the signs of your former victories. Look with mercy on the Church of your Son, on His Vicar on earth, and on all the clergy and laity, who are sorely oppressed in this mighty conflict.

Powerful vanquisher of all heresies, hasten the hour of mercy even though the hour of God’s Justice is every day provoked by the countless sins of men.

As I kneel before you in prayer, obtain for me my requests (mention your intentions). Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, pray for us.

As an aside, I was looking through a picture book of our Diocese the other day, and I have to say that I believe North Texas takes the prize for the number of ugly churches per square mile. There are a huge number that were built in the 50's and 60's that look like they were built out of cinder blocks with low metal roofs. Many were built in the suburbs and I guess the original churches were destroyed. My own church was founded in 1892 under a different name. I don't know if it burned or was torn down. In its place, in a different section of town, is a hideous 1950's church that looks just like a Seventh Day Adventist church I went to one time for a funeral. Father tries hard to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but it's still a sow's ear. Whatever Bishop approved these cheap, shabby edifices had no concept of the "Glory of God" or just didn't care! (IMHO)


33 posted on 10/13/2006 9:31:35 AM PDT by nanetteclaret (Our Lady's Hat Society)
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To: Rutles4Ever; Maeve

See post 7. Any Bishop that does this cannot be said to care for his flock.

I'm sure if he doesn't need converting, Jesus will ignore my prayer.


34 posted on 10/13/2006 9:36:18 AM PDT by nanetteclaret (Our Lady's Hat Society)
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To: nanetteclaret
As an aside, I was looking through a picture book of our Diocese the other day, and I have to say that I believe North Texas takes the prize for the number of ugly churches per square mile. There are a huge number that were built in the 50's and 60's that look like they were built out of cinder blocks with low metal roofs. Many were built in the suburbs and I guess the original churches were destroyed.

I remember joking with my friends in the early '80s about the new "pizza hut church". The building was shaped like a pizza hut (square, high roof with a little square on top, slightly overhanging eves, etc). Inside it was a startling blue and orange, had movable chairs not pews and a fountain feeding a pool for the holy water (which to us under 25 year olds was the coolest thing about the church). The sign out front saying it was a church was the only reason we knew it was a church -- there was no cross on the building, no statues outside.

We referred to it as Our Lady of the Extra Peperoni and I will forever think of that building whenever someone says 'ugly church".
35 posted on 10/13/2006 10:41:52 AM PDT by Talking_Mouse (wahhabi delenda est)
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To: Maeve
Unfortunately, the letter lacks specifics.

Well, he's a Cardinal Archbishop of New York, and I cannot think of single good thing to say about him. He forced the Armenian Catholics out of their Cathedral (St. Ann's) so he could sell it and make money off of the land. That's for starters...

Your info helps.

Didn't he also try to bust Fr. Pavone down to parish priest on Long Island?

36 posted on 10/13/2006 10:45:13 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: nanetteclaret

Is this what he did? Or is this what someone claims he did? I'm glad to know that hearsay is all it takes to declare a bishop in danger of perishing in hellfire.


37 posted on 10/13/2006 10:48:50 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever ("My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9))
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To: Maeve

I'm no huge fan of Cardinal Egan, but this letter is a bit unseemly in my view. A priest does owe obedience and respect to his bishop, and if Cardinal Egan is reaching the retirement age, the problem might resolve itself in time.


38 posted on 10/13/2006 10:51:58 AM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: TaxachusettsMan
Has anyone met some of the Anglican priest converts to the RC Church?????????? Lavender indeed - even some of the "married" ones.

I actually know about a dozen of them. They are very wonderful priests.

What in the world is your major malfunction?

39 posted on 10/13/2006 10:52:49 AM PDT by Maeve
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To: Aquinasfan
Yes. He tried to squash Priests for Life. In the end, Fr. Pavone moved to the Diocese of Amarillo, Texas (with the remarkable Bishop Yanta).
40 posted on 10/13/2006 10:55:49 AM PDT by Maeve
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To: Carolina

About 90 came through the Pastoral Provision process. No one can give a correct figure because some bishops used other canons and not the Pastoral Provision in these matters. In England there were hundreds who came in, and many a parish that would have closed is served now by a former Anglican priest.


41 posted on 10/13/2006 10:58:39 AM PDT by Maeve
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To: Maeve
Yes. He tried to squash Priests for Life.

That's a veeeeeery bad sign.

In the end, Fr. Pavone moved to the Diocese of Amarillo, Texas (with the remarkable Bishop Yanta).

BTW, do you understand the canon law regarding a move like this? I thought priests were stuck with their local bishop.

42 posted on 10/13/2006 10:59:03 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Aquinasfan

I'm not the Canon Law expert in the family -- but I do know that it happened with help from Rome.


43 posted on 10/13/2006 10:59:51 AM PDT by Maeve
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To: Maeve; marshmallow; AnAmericanMother

I've lived in the NY Archdiocese all my life, and I know nothing about this. I know that the Cardinal has closed some churches and schools. I don't know what his voting record is in the NCCB. I haven't heard a thing about priests' thoughts concerning Cardinal Egan - don't even have any "allegeds" to go on.

I will say this, however, just as the last two Popes have not been Italian (I know the Holy Spirit picks them), maybe it's time to consider the choice of a NY Cardinal who's not Irish. To choose a specific man having particular gifts, which are especially needed by this Archdiocese, rather than selecting one by ethnic group.


44 posted on 10/13/2006 11:01:09 AM PDT by Lauren BaRecall (My favorite dream - line dancing with the space aliens...oh, and Bucky Dent brought me flowers....)
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To: Lauren BaRecall

Being Irish myself, I absolutely agree that being ethnic Irish should not enter into it. And after this one, we need an Italian like Fr. Pavone made Archbishop.


45 posted on 10/13/2006 11:04:04 AM PDT by Maeve
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To: Maeve; TaxachusettsMan
I was a "high church" Episcopalian from my baptism in the early 50s until 2003 when I became a Catholic.

My experience with the orthodox ECUSA priests (the only potential source for Anglican Use priests) is that they are the polar opposite of "lavender". I don't think any are homosexual (and as the daughter of a professional dancer my gaydar is fairly accurate) but if they are they are living chastely and discreetly and minding their own business.

In fact, my experience is that the homosexual Episcopal priests are also the most loony-liberal in theology and therefore the least likely to go over to Rome. Any traffic would be in the opposite direction (and good riddance). It's quite true that some of these guys are nutty about the "high church" trappings - vestments, incense, etc. - but they can have all that without leaving ECUSA.

What's the basis for your statement?

46 posted on 10/13/2006 11:10:24 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Unam Sanctam

"A priest does owe obedience and respect to his bishop"

Is there anything -- anything -- a bishop can to to lose this entitlement to obedience and respect?


47 posted on 10/13/2006 11:28:57 AM PDT by dsc
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To: Maeve
Yes. He tried to squash Priests for Life. In the end, Fr. Pavone moved to the Diocese of Amarillo, Texas (with the remarkable Bishop Yanta).

What was the reason for this?

48 posted on 10/13/2006 11:34:50 AM PDT by Lauren BaRecall (My favorite dream - line dancing with the space aliens...oh, and Bucky Dent brought me flowers....)
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To: Maeve

Or Bishop Fabian Bruskiewicz. He's been #1 on my wish list for years!


49 posted on 10/13/2006 11:39:22 AM PDT by Lauren BaRecall (My favorite dream - line dancing with the space aliens...oh, and Bucky Dent brought me flowers....)
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To: nanetteclaret

From the top.... Name-Diocese-details


Brown - Orange, CA - 69
Clark - Rochester - 69
DuMaine - San Jose, CA - resigned 1999
Egan - NY - very nearly 75
Favalora - Miami - 70
Ferrerio - Honolulu - dead
Flores - San Antonio - retired 2004
Flynn - St. Paul - 62
Gerety - Newark - retired 1986
Grahmann - Dallas - 75 not retired yet
Hubbard - Albany - 67
Imesch - Joliet - retired 5/2006
Jadot - Curia - 96 retired 1984
Keller /Keleher - Kansas - resigned 2005
Kelly - which one there are 7 to choose from
Law - Curia - resigned from Boston in disgrace 2002
Loverde - Arlington, VA - 66
Lynch - there are 4
Mahony - Los Angeles - 70
Maida - Detroit - 76
McCarrick - Washington DC - retired 5/2006
Myers - Newark - 65
Pilarczyk - Cincinnati - 72
Sullivan - which one there are 7 to choose from
Skylstad - Spokane - 72
Trautmann - Erie - 70
Untener - Saginaw - died 2004
Weakland - Milwaukee - retired 2002


50 posted on 10/13/2006 12:24:42 PM PDT by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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