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Major Baptist seminary rejects practice of speaking in tongues
Kansas City Star ^ | Oct. 17, 2006 | Brett Hoffman

Posted on 10/19/2006 5:44:54 PM PDT by split

FORT WORTH, Texas - After a Baptist pastor said in a chapel service at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary that he sometimes speaks in tongues when he prays, seminary trustees adopted a resolution Tuesday that states the institution will not tolerate the promotion of the practice of speaking in tongues.

The resolution: "Southwestern will not knowingly endorse in any way, advertise, or commend the conclusions of the contemporary charismatic movement including private prayer language. Neither will Southwestern knowingly employ professors or administrators who promote such practices."

Speaking in tongues is described in the Bible as a spiritual gift from God that empowers humans to speak in other languages. But many contemporary theologians teach that the practice was distinctly for first-century Christians. However, in the past century, Pentecostal and charismatic Christians have contended that speaking in tongues should be practiced in today's churches.

Patterson said he has consistently maintained a different view.

"I have opposed (speaking in tongues) for all of these years because I think it's an erroneous interpretation of the Bible," he said. "Southern Baptists traditionally have stood against what we feel like are the excesses of the charismatic movement. All we're doing is restating where we've always been."

Baptists are "the most intense advocates of religious liberty," Patterson said, defending the right of other Christians to believe in speaking in tongues. "But don't wear a Yankee uniform when you play for the Mets."

"We interpret the Scriptures in such a way that we do not see room for a private prayer language and we're saying we will not waver on that," Redmond said.

(Excerpt) Read more at kansascity.com ...


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KEYWORDS: baptists; nopopesomanypopes; popehashismerits; religiousfreedom
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To: Quix
Equal time is: they can start their own church.

Thanks the great thing about America. Don't like what your pastor is preaching. there's another Church down the block.

Besides, there's plenty of people will keep you posted on strange happenings in any organization whatsoever. You post what you think it strange; I'll do the same. :)
101 posted on 10/20/2006 9:16:28 AM PDT by chesley (Republicans don't serve to win...But America does not deserve the Dhimmicrats!)
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To: MineralMan
Oh, MineralMan, YOU crack me up!!!!

As an advocate of Non-evangelical Atheists, I'm sure your are a wealth of Biblical information!!!

LOL!

Yet, you always have something charming to say. Let's see what it is this time ... .


"Well, apparently you agree with this policy. I think you'll find that lots of people see glossolalia as being a sign of being saved. Are you so sure they're wrong? Do you feel all that comfortable in simply dismissing glossolalia? "

Perhaps you can explain "glossolalia".

From the Bible, John 3:16 is what GOD says is needed to be "saved":

John 3:16

[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


I don't need "glossolalia" or any other unBiblical gimmick. Tongues are not needed today either. When tongues were used, they didn't have a BIBLE!!! BIG DIFFERENCE. Today we have all we need in the Bible.

"Having read many posts you have written, I've come to the conclusion that you have a very, very narrow view of Christianity. Somehow, I doubt that you are learned enough to form that view in any reliable way."

I know, the Bible does have that "NARROW" way of presenting itself. Here's another example of that VEY NARROW view of Christianity:

Matt.7:14

[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Seriously, MineralMan, true Christianity based on the Bible, God's Word, DOES have dos and don'ts. It's NOT anything goes. The beauty about that is you are free when you do your best to follow them. You're actually content and at peace no matter what craziness is going on out there.

"Christianity encompasses a very, very wide range of doctrines. Are you absolutely certain that your doctrinal beliefs are the correct ones? If so, please explain what gives you that confidence. "

Wrong! For example the Ten Commandments are NOT the Ten Suggestions. You are to obey them but as Christians we are not legalistic and still under the law. Christ satisfied those deficits taking on out punishment ... .

Christianity does NOT encompass a wide range of doctrines! It's not a multiple choice test and you get to pick what YOU want to believe. My beliefs stem from the BIBLE. The Bible is inspired by God. Perhaps you can explain to me how I can go wrong following what God inspired? Is God wrong? Or is it people that are wrong? I am absolutely confident that my beliefs are correct - they stem from God via the Bible!!! This is what allows me to discern false teachings.

"Otherwise, you might want to give Christians who don't share your exact beliefs a little slack, eh?"

I see no reason to when it doesn't square with the Bible and THEY claim to believe in Him and follow Him too! It is the obligation of a Christian to help a fellow Christian avoid false teachings. I'd like to see them in heaven too. To take your advice and "give them some slack" tells me that whoever is saying that doesn't take God's teachings seriously and doesn't care where that person ends up.
102 posted on 10/20/2006 9:16:48 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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To: MineralMan
BTW, MineralMan, if you ever want true happiness and contentment in your life and up to learning about genuine Christianity, you are welcome to privately e-mail me anytime.

Despite my sarcasm to you at times ... I'd like to see you in heaven too!
103 posted on 10/20/2006 9:18:48 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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To: Corin Stormhands

There's certainly enough evidence that this whole issue has been taken to extremes that are not from God.

As one of my pastor's likes to say. "We're Pentecostals. Just not the scary, crazy kind."
= = = =

Agreed.

But lots of congregations of every stripe do very crazy things--FROM GOD'S PERSPECTIVE. Witness the church splits over the color of the center asile carpeting.

it's just that due to the dramatic, unusual nature of the charismatic gifts and emotions attached, it's easier and more popular to make noise about THOSE problems.


104 posted on 10/20/2006 9:20:14 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Ingtar

I've persistently observed that

SELF-AGGRANDIZEMENT

is a plague on all denominatons, and sometimes seemingly all congregations

of every stripe.


105 posted on 10/20/2006 9:22:26 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix

"PLEASE--Show me the research that proves

MOST OF

US."


"Some call it tongues for lack of a better word" You seem much more passionate about this issue than me. I'm not a researcher, I'm a Baptist. In my experience "many" (better?) Baptists don't believe there might be a difference between private prayer language and publicy speaking in tounges and so they are prone to lump the two together. Ask the "average' congregational Baptist about private prayer language and they will probably not know what your talking about.

Your mileage may vary.


106 posted on 10/20/2006 9:23:36 AM PDT by MP5SD
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To: scripter

I strongly suspect . . .

that if you asked of The Lord . . .

and in some crisis or great need . . . prayed in a sequence of sounds unassociated with any known language to you, that Holy Spirit would be pleased to convey to The Lord whatever anguish, delight, need of your deep inner spirit that had found no or scant expression in English.

Faith and trust in Holy Spirit's readiness and eagerness to convey meaning to whatever sounds made would likely be an important key.

Some folks experience a sort of supernatural confirmation such beginning moments. Others don't until maybe months or years later.


107 posted on 10/20/2006 9:26:34 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: P-Marlowe

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!


108 posted on 10/20/2006 9:27:30 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix
"...WHAT A BEAUTIFUL SUMMARY OF THE GOSPEL STORY SHE'D JUST SPOKEN OUT DURING THE PRAYER TIME."
_____________________________

She was speaking in an actual language that someone else recognized, understood and interpreted. My understanding is that is a perfect example of what happened at Pentecost.

What about the private prayer language, you and others have referred to, is it a language someone would recognize if it were written down?
109 posted on 10/20/2006 9:30:53 AM PDT by wmfights (Psalm : 27)
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To: wmfights

Praying in a sequence of sounds not normally part of and not as part of a language you know.

AND TRUSTING HOLY SPIRIT IS CONVEYING THE MEANING TO THE FATHER, TO OUR LORD.

Romans 8:26 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson



26-28Meanwhile, the moment we get tired in the waiting, God's Spirit is right alongside helping us along. If we don't know how or what to pray, it doesn't matter. He does our praying in and for us, making prayer out of our wordless sighs, our aching groans. He knows us far better than we know ourselves, knows our pregnant condition, and keeps us present before God. That's why we can be so sure that every detail in our lives of love for God is worked into something good.
= = =

KJV: groanings which cannot be uttered.

perhaps . . . which cannot be put into words, normally.


110 posted on 10/20/2006 9:36:50 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: MineralMan

What I do not understand is one Christian saying of another that he or she is wrong and not a "true" Christian, based on these differences.
= = = =

Agreed!

In a word . . . PRIDE.

And, insecurities . . . turf issues . . . CONTROL FREAK issues . . . political games.

All which must be sickening to our Lord.


111 posted on 10/20/2006 9:38:42 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: P-Marlowe

PRAISE GOD! I love it when He does things like that.

But He's certainly no vending machine as some demand and expect. Then they like to throw the baby out with the bath.


112 posted on 10/20/2006 9:39:51 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: DarthVader

PRAISE GOD!

A friend of mine standing next to me in the sound booth . . . when the visiting evangelist (known for God using him in such ways mentioned) suggested that those who felt a warm tingling sensation in their mouths to go and check in the restroom and see if they had a new filling etc. He did and he did have a bright new filling. Hadn't known he needed a filling.

There I stood with a mess of a mouth and not one filling I was most troubled.

Some folks that evening got gold fillings, others silver and others evidently white porcelain. The evangelist did not know why God chose to do things that way instead of just give people new teeth.


113 posted on 10/20/2006 9:45:11 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix

The prayer language you are referring to can not be written down or conveyed in any way to anyone else. It is strictly a meditative state that you believe helps you in communicating with GOD the FATHER. Is this what it is?

If so, I understand the Baptist distrust of it. It sounds very similar to what Buddhist's do when doing yoga.


114 posted on 10/20/2006 9:47:40 AM PDT by wmfights (Psalm : 27)
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To: Quix

God does as he pleases and most miracles occur often when we aren't asking.


115 posted on 10/20/2006 9:48:56 AM PDT by DarthVader (Conservatives aren't always right , but Liberals are almost always wrong.)
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To: nmh

I'm not in to "tongues".

English suits me fine when communicating.
= = = =

Lots of people aren't into lots of things

THAT GOD IS DOING in these end times.

Doesn't slow God down much in terms of the world at large. May slow Him down in individual lives, congregations or geographic areas. God seems to infrequently force Himself on any group or area.

I think that will change somewhat in coming months and years. God will be displaying His majesty and power far and wide. Though I still think in most cases, it will be because of praying believers in that area.


116 posted on 10/20/2006 9:54:21 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: nmh

Seriously, nmh, there is much in the Bible you are not addressing. Glossolalia (speaking in tongues) is distinctly in the Bible.

So are the verses you quoted, of course. But other Christians find purpose in other portions of the Bible. You say that you don't think I'm learned enough to talk about this. You're incorrect.

Some might say I don't properly "discern" the meaning of Biblical passages. That's fine, but I do know them, and know them very well.

At one time, in my youth, I found it interesting and useful to memorize entire books of the Bible. I got a free two-week stay at a church camp one Summer for memorizing the entire book of I Corinthians. I also memorized all four of the Gospels, just because I was challenged to do so.

No, I know the Bible very well. I was once a very devoted Christian. I came to my atheism in my 20s. Before that, I was on the verge of attending seminary and joining the ministry.

You know some Bible verses, but are, apparently, ignorant of many others. Many might be worth your learning.


117 posted on 10/20/2006 10:00:33 AM PDT by MineralMan (Non-evangelical Atheist)
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To: nmh

Paul wrote instructions

TO

BELIEVERS

IN NEW TESTAMENT ERA CHURCHES. LAST I CHECKED, WE ARE STILL IN THE CHURCH AGE.

Declarations artificially insisting on a cessation of such are human contrived and not remotely Biblically instructed. They are extrapolated inferances.

What an achievement of the enemy to snooker folks so.

He knows that there are many groups following his deception to result in what this verse talks about:

2 Timothy 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


118 posted on 10/20/2006 10:02:19 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: chesley

Besides, there's plenty of people will keep you posted on strange happenings in any organization whatsoever. You post what you think it strange; I'll do the same. :)
= = =

I'd rather post what God is doing instead of what God is not doing.


119 posted on 10/20/2006 10:03:46 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: wmfights

What about the private prayer language, you and others have referred to, is it a language someone would recognize if it were written down?
= = = =

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

I try and avoid telling Holy Spirit HOW to do HIS WORK.


120 posted on 10/20/2006 10:06:10 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: split

I think praying in tongues and also the gift of tongues (they are two different things) are scriptural.

They are a beautiful gift from the Lord.

I will make no further posts because I don't want to get into a flame war.


121 posted on 10/20/2006 10:18:20 AM PDT by trillabodilla (Jesus Saves)
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To: Quix

I've always thought that the groanings of the Holy Spirit in Romans 8 is the Holy Spirit uttering on our behalf ... not THROUGH us... the Holy Spirit interceding on our behalf to God the Father in a spiritual sense - not a physical sense of coming out of OUR mouth..

This is the closest scripture I've seen to a "private prayer" language .. are there others? I've always wondered how the whole "private" thing came about - as opposed to other scripture where it clearly states there needs to be an interpreter, etc.


122 posted on 10/20/2006 10:23:30 AM PDT by pamlet
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To: Quix

OK. But wasn't that the whole point? People seem to have disagreements as to God's theology? My opinion, for what it is worth, is that like-minded people should congregate together as the best way to ensure the earthly unity of the God's Church.


123 posted on 10/20/2006 10:26:48 AM PDT by chesley (Republicans don't serve to win...But America does not deserve the Dhimmicrats!)
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To: wmfights

I'm not bothered much by folks who wish to throw rocks at what Holy Spirit does in and through me.

Holy Spirit has done unusual things thoughout the Old Testament as well as the New. The unusual is NORMAL for Holy Spirit.

Certainly there is some research to suggest that praying in tongues is a kind of meditative state for many who exercise such. Meditating on God and what He is and/or might be doing in one's life is a pretty Biblical thing to do.

Many noncharismatic/nonPentecostal churches put their parishioners into a hypnotized meditative state by the cadence of their preaching . . . the sameness of the form of service etc. I don't find that very edifying or Biblical.

But, praying in tongues is usually, for me, not a meditative state at all. It's virtually like praying in English except that . . . as St Paul says in Scripture--one is praying with my conscious understanding and one is merely with varying degrees of understanding of one's spirit and . . . to some degree . . . what Holy Spirit shares with one consciouisly in English what is being prayed in tongues. But many folks are not taught to tune in "in their spirit" as they pray in tongues.

Then there's praying in tongues--most commonly--I think of a need in English and pray for a spell in tongues until I feel a peace that that specific need has been covered. Then, I move on to the next concern and think about that in English maybe while I pray in tongues about it until I feel a release.

Much of praying in tongues is listening, tuning in--in my spirit to Holy Spirit for whatever He might say about the topic of concern.

It's not surprising that Scripture says to Meditate on His Word day and night and that the enemy also has a counterfeit meditation on unhelpful things.

Equating a mental state while praying in tongues with a satanic meditation substitute is greatly inaccurate and borderline hazardous or worse in terms of Scripture.

Some believe that ascribing to Holy Spirit things of satan is equal to the unpardonable sin.


124 posted on 10/20/2006 10:28:50 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: DarthVader

What about the private prayer language, you and others have referred to, is it a language someone would recognize if it were written down?
= = =

MUCH AGREE.


125 posted on 10/20/2006 10:29:27 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: pamlet

I think that's the main one. I think others require more of an extrapolation.

Haven't you ever been in a big need state when you'd prayed all you could pray in English and still had a burden in your heart, spirit, mind . . .

And a kind of groaning, anguished muttering was what resulted?

I sure have. Certainly tongues were a welcome relief in expressing such hard to express anguish.

I've also had extended times of literally just groaning in deep and intense anguish for many minutes and I was utterly confident Holy Spirit was putting meaning to my groans before The Father. It was a GREAT COMFORT. No surprise given that He's The Comforter.


126 posted on 10/20/2006 10:37:29 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: chesley

Unity of mind, heart and spirit is best in worship etc.

But SUBMITTING TO HOLY SPIRIT IN A GIVEN LOCALE, SERVICE . . . SITUATION . . .

IS A VERY BEAUTIFUL AND POWERFUL THING.

THERE IS PRAYER POWER IN PRAYING UNITY.

Most disunity is over pride, turf and control issues. Those unGodly motivations need put on the altar.

Those "reasons" tend to hide under the pretense of "defending doctrinal purity."


127 posted on 10/20/2006 10:40:39 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: phoenix0468
It has been recoreded, and the content of the language is as literate as if it were spoken in the persons native tounge.

Do you have a link for this - very interesting!
128 posted on 10/20/2006 10:40:51 AM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: MineralMan
"Seriously, nmh, there is much in the Bible you are not addressing. Glossolalia (speaking in tongues) is distinctly in the Bible. "

Of course there is a lot in the Bible! Volumes have been written about the Bible, however I find the Bible more than adequate in letting you know what it true and false! Speaking in tongues is NOT needed TODAY! Yes, when the Holy Spirit came people spoke in tongues - this was PRIOR to the WRITTEN WORD.

While we're talking about tongues, explain to me WHY it is needed TODAY? WHY? What is the point? A charade? Hearing sounds that the majority of people can't understand? What is the point in that when you have the WRITTEN word readily available in the U.S. so far ... . Could it be that fallen angels, remember, 1/3 of them followed Lucifer. What an opportunity this is for him ... recall they are countless. Do you really think that they wouldn't capitalize on this? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm? Again, WHY is this needed when you have the WRITTEN WORD of God? Talk is cheap. Put it in writing - and that's exactly what God did - the Bible!

"So are the verses you quoted, of course. But other Christians find purpose in other portions of the Bible. You say that you don't think I'm learned enough to talk about this. You're incorrect."

I chose my words careful from the Bible. Did it ever occur to you that Paul was speaking to people of other LANGUAGES to communicate the Gospel to them? A language they could UNDERSTAND? I don't think God wants us to ignore common sense. From what I have seen you write, I beg to differ on your knowledge of the Bible.

"Some might say I don't properly "discern" the meaning of Biblical passages. That's fine, but I do know them, and know them very well. "

You may believe you know them but discernment is key. What's the point of knowing them if you don't understand them and can't properly apply what yo believe you know. It's pointless.

"At one time, in my youth, I found it interesting and useful to memorize entire books of the Bible. I got a free two-week stay at a church camp one Summer for memorizing the entire book of I Corinthians. I also memorized all four of the Gospels, just because I was challenged to do so."

Head knowledge is fine for anyone. How's your heart knowledge? Memorization is fine ... let me give you an example of what I mean ... our daughter memorized the Gettysburg address. She was one month shy of turning seven. The words came out just fine however she didn't understand the CONTEXT of the speech. She didn't understand what was going on with the people. WHY Lincoln was there. So, we filled her in through videos and books so she had the proper CONTEXT and UNDERSTANDING to give the proper passionate delivery of that famous speech. Little did Lincoln know that we would "long remember what we did there". When she had all that information, the speech came alive! There was passion and humbleness at the right passages. She had head knowledge and heart knowledge.

"No, I know the Bible very well. I was once a very devoted Christian. I came to my atheism in my 20s. Before that, I was on the verge of attending seminary and joining the ministry. "

You may not want to answer this publically ... but if you would ever want to discuss privately what drove you to atheism, keep my e-mail in mind. Don't let other mortals create cynicism. They will. There are hypocrites out there too. None of this is the way ... we all fall short however we must strive to do our best and be consistent.

"You know some Bible verses, but are, apparently, ignorant of many others. Many might be worth your learning."

No, I'm not ignorant of others. I simply see no need to write up a storm and drop in everything, including the kitchen sink! My suggestion to you would be to focus on this topic before moving on to others. I don't believe glossing over things is learning. You still haven't answered my questions on WHY tongues are needed TODAY. That tells me you lack enough knowledge to answer it.

I also get the impression that you'd like to make the Law of Contradiciton true. Do you really believe that opposing doctrines are all true at the same time? Do you? Or do you believe that something is true or something is false? It can only be one way or the other. It's not true for me and false for you. That might be a better starting point for you ... .

I also find it interesting that you often show up at these topics. Could it be that you are not at peace? You don't have to answer that ... your responses tell me that.
129 posted on 10/20/2006 10:43:29 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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To: Quix

You and I are not on the same page to begin with.

I'm not Catholic and you are. So for you to believe in tongues ... something else we don't agree on.


130 posted on 10/20/2006 10:45:09 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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To: Stone Mountain

There have been such. I don't have any links.

I know that Dr Walter Martin's throat Dr--he was a public speaker--was I think Armenian. The Doc was in a prayer group and a message in tongues came forth . . . I don't recall if it was interpretation or that the tongue was in Armenian--I think the latter--and it spoke of the Doc becoming a missionary to the middle east etc. Which he was shocked to hear.

Some several years later, it came about exactly as predicted in that prayer session. I think that surprised Dr Martin. But he knew his doc real well and became a believer in such things.

Dave Hunt took over Dr Martin's ministry and then began trashing a lot that Holy Spirit does. He's on dangerous ground, imho.


131 posted on 10/20/2006 10:45:24 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: nmh

Speaking in tongues is NOT needed TODAY! Yes, when the Holy Spirit came people spoke in tongues - this was PRIOR to the WRITTEN WORD.
= = = =

That's simply not true.

Many times praying in tongues has been literally life saving in my life. And, it's been a channel of blessing in counseling situations many times. I'd be stuck with a particularly difficult situation and we'd pray and Holy Spirit would give me a question to ask or a statement to make and the impasse would be instantly over.

And, there's NOTHING IN SCRIPTURE TO INDICATE SUCH A CESSATIONIST PERSPECTIVE. NOTHING.

That perspective is 100% extrapolation, inference, assumption.


132 posted on 10/20/2006 10:49:12 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: nmh

I'm not Catholic and you are. So for you to believe in tongues ... something else we don't agree on.
= = =

LOL. WHAT A LAUGH.

I've never been a Roman believer. Never will be a Roman believer.

An interesting assumption.

It seems I don't agree with a number of assumptions.


133 posted on 10/20/2006 10:51:54 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: nmh

While we're talking about tongues, explain to me WHY it is needed TODAY? WHY? What is the point? A charade? Hearing sounds that the majority of people can't understand? What is the point in that when you have the WRITTEN word readily available in the U.S.
= = = =

REASONS FOR TONGUES:

1. IT'S BIBLICAL--THAT'S REASON ENOUGH.

2. I often run out of ways to express my concerns and needs in English. Holy Spirit perfectly expresses my deep inner concerns and needs, including spiritual needs FAR BETTER than I ever could. Scripture is fairly clear about that function.

3. Properly exercised, tongues and interpretation can lead believers as well as unbelievers into a deeper understanding of God.

4. Scripture does not indicate whether to buy auto "A" or "B;" marry gal "A" or "B." Praying repeatedly over time or even in one session can release Holy Spirit birthed understanding, insight, word from The Lord as to what wisdom is in many situations very specific to the moment and the individual.

5. When tongues is a known language in a witnessing situation, the impact is impressive and Godly.

6. Praying in tongues is a great agent of peace in my life.

7. Praying in tongues is a great agent of RELEASE in my life of troublesome concerns as well as

8. releasing great urges to worship God in more intense and intimate ways.

9. A Holy Spirit orchestrated singing in tongues session spontaneously arising in a large group meeting is one of the few HEAVENLY experiences I've experienced on this earth. Unbelievers are characteristically moved and awed by such a phenomenon. All in the room are brought closer to God as a result.

10. Praying in tongues can be very exhortive, instructive as Holy Spirit does a deeper inner work within the one praying in tongues.

I'm sure that there are other reasons. But, that's enough to be rationalized against in hostility to Holy Spirit. I wouldn't want to contribut to someone's error or sin by giving them MORE true Holy Spirit birthed helps to criticize.


134 posted on 10/20/2006 11:02:57 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix

To be honest I've never been moved to utter anything than English... Yes I've prayed until I could not figure out what to say.. but I also knew the Father was understanding as the Holy Spirit was interceding for me...

I still honest do not understand how the groaning's translate into something a person is doing ...

ISV -
Rom 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit also helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we should. But the Spirit himself intercedes with groans too deep for words,
Rom 8:27 and the one who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, for the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to God's will.

"the Spirit himself intercedes with groans too deep for words" It doesn't say the Spirit GIVES the groans.. or the Spirit groans through you ... it says the "Spirit Himself intercedes"

I'm truly not "picking" on you ... when I was younger I attended a church that made a LOT of "private prayer language" ... yet no one could ever give me scripture to see where it applied...

Now as to public speaking of tongues... miracles... etc.. I think that COULD happen - but it's important to be discerning as to what is REALLY happening ... and what is a contrivance of man ... by contrivance I don't neccessarily mean a purposeful deception - but something that may not be of GOD - but of emotion..


135 posted on 10/20/2006 11:03:56 AM PDT by pamlet
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To: nmh
Talk is cheap

HOLY SPIRIT
TALK
IS
NOT
CHEAP!

And, it CAN be spiritually hazardous to assert that it is.

136 posted on 10/20/2006 11:05:07 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: pamlet

I understand your perspective.


137 posted on 10/20/2006 11:07:42 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix
I tend to agree. But where are you going with this? I just say that the Baptists, or any group, have the right, indeed the obligation, to say, "After careful and mature consideration of this issue, we find it not to be in accordance with God's will, as we understand it to the best of our limited human abilities, and we refuse to be associated with this idea."

This is what the SBs did. Those that don't like it can go elsewhere.
138 posted on 10/20/2006 11:11:02 AM PDT by chesley (Republicans don't serve to win...But America does not deserve the Dhimmicrats!)
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To: chesley

I mostly agree with you.

But it's sad, to me.

And, they are really missing out and teaching others to miss out. But, God has all that factored in, somehow.

And, will be changing much of it in coming months and years.


139 posted on 10/20/2006 11:12:41 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: nmh

"Speaking in tongues is NOT needed TODAY! Yes, when the Holy Spirit came people spoke in tongues - this was PRIOR to the WRITTEN WORD.
"

It isn't? How do you know this? Actually, Paul's words were written, so this was not prior to the written word. Are Paul's letters no longer relevant? That would come as an enormous suprise to all those denominations that focus primarily on Paul's letters.

Are you authoritative enough to tell other what is and is not needed in worship? That's pretty bold, it seems to me.

Paul instructed the young churches in doctrine, and most churches use his words today to help them understand what to do. Are you saying that Paul's words are no longer of value to today's church?

It's all academic to me, of course.


140 posted on 10/20/2006 11:19:59 AM PDT by MineralMan (Non-evangelical Atheist)
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"Tongues of Men and Angels" by William J. Samarin, an anthropolgist, written from a linguistic approach, suggested reading.

The late Father Vincent P. Micelli, S.J., in the appendix to his book "The Antichrist" (©1981), p. 279, quotes from Rousas John Rushdoony in "Power From Below," reproduced by Gary North in his book, "None Dare Call It Witchcraft, pp. 222-224:

"It (power from below) also means a greater stress on mindless religion, as witness the so-called charismatic movement, an emphasis on mindless experience as power. The charismatic who learns to babble insanely in what is no tongue at all has no answer therein to moral and intellectual problems, but he "witnesses" eloquently to others of the feeling of "power in the Spirit," power which is in essence a cultivation of what is mindless and subterranean . . . ."

Interestingly, in the appendix, Fr. Micelli quotes from some non-Catholic sources, including Dostoevsky, Solzhenitsyn, and others, also Catholic sources.

Interesting read for Catholics and non-Catholics alike. One post described what I could only regard as power coming up from below rather than from above.

141 posted on 10/20/2006 11:46:16 AM PDT by Aliska
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To: Quix
Talk is cheap is as true as ever!

I'm not the least bit concerned about my "spiritual health" either. That's a cheap shot to take when someone disagrees with you. While others may have ITCHING EARS. I don't have itching ears I prefer to believe what God states in the Bible.

I don't like seeing Paul's words being twisted to validate speaking in tongues as being discussed here. Charismatics and Pentecostals wish to believe that if you don't speak in tongues than you're not a real "Christian". That doesn't bother me at all either.

I don't blame the Baptists clergy for condemning it... there's enough heresy out there without adding this to it. The context on tongues as Paul is describing it is NOT what Pentecostals and Charismatics push. Look up the Greek for the passage.

When you have time attend a Pentecostal or Charismatic "revival" or just a meeting where they are "slain in the spirit". It will bring home my point that talk is VERY cheap.

The WRITTEN word is certainly sufficient for you too. It certainly makes sense for God, Who is unchanging to have His teachings in WRITING. I suspect this is WHY His teachings are in WRITING. If you're still not convinced, try a game of whisper down the lane and see how talk is twisted. As I mentioned to MineralMan, 1/3 of countless angels fell ... they're having a field day out there.

142 posted on 10/20/2006 12:57:57 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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To: MineralMan
"It isn't? How do you know this? Actually, Paul's words were written, so this was not prior to the written word. Are Paul's letters no longer relevant? That would come as an enormous suprise to all those denominations that focus primarily on Paul's letters. "

So the Bible was written in Paul's day? Just because Paul wrote a lot of things yet only SOME of it is in the Bible. Interesting how God is SELECTIVE. You need ALL that is in the Bible to get the most accurate picture. Then again, for some who have little interest in His teachings would be content with some crumbs to bat around.

"Are you authoritative enough to tell other what is and is not needed in worship? That's pretty bold, it seems to me."

You really need to READ the Bible. The BIBLE, God's Word is the ULTIMATE AUTHORITY. That's where I get my views from. I think God has every right to be BOLD. I believe God has every right to determine HOW people worship and WHO they worship. If people could move off their agendas and READ what He has written for us, they'd flee some of these "churches" but they'd rather trust a mere mortal to teach them unBiblical teachings to fit in with their pride/ego and agenda.

"Paul instructed the young churches in doctrine, and most churches use his words today to help them understand what to do. Are you saying that Paul's words are no longer of value to today's church? "

I'm saying over and over again that speaking in tongues is not necessary today. We have the Bible.

What you keep avoiding over and over and over again is WHY you think tongues are necessary today when we have His WRITTEN Word for teachings, doctrines, beliefs etc..

Do you think God is stupid? Did He leave things out that must be spoken in tongues that most will NOT understand?

The God I know, is Perfect. He doesn't over look anything. I suppose I'll never get the answer to my question on WHY you believe speaking in tongues is legitimate. BTW, HOW do you know speaking in tongues is from GOD? HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS, let alone WHAT they are saying when they "speak in tongues"? Me thinks you have a lot of explaining to do.

"It's all academic to me, of course."
143 posted on 10/20/2006 1:09:21 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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To: nmh

Charismatics and Pentecostals wish to believe that if you don't speak in tongues than you're not a real "Christian". That doesn't bother me at all either.
= = =

As written, that's at best a gross wholesale distortion of fact.

Some . . . a small minority, actually . . . tend to IMPLY that in their tones and attitudes.

One would think that gross distortions of fact would bother a Christian poster.


144 posted on 10/20/2006 1:13:24 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: nmh

I'm saying over and over again that speaking in tongues is not necessary today. We have the Bible.
= = = =

Lots of people SAY LOTS of things.

Doesn't make them remotely close to the truth.


145 posted on 10/20/2006 1:15:25 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: nmh

Doesn't make them remotely close to the truth.

Also doesn't make them remotely close to BIBLICAL.


146 posted on 10/20/2006 1:15:58 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: nmh

"The God I know, is Perfect. He doesn't over look anything. I suppose I'll never get the answer to my question on WHY you believe speaking in tongues is legitimate. BTW, HOW do you know speaking in tongues is from GOD? HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS, let alone WHAT they are saying when they "speak in tongues"? Me thinks you have a lot of explaining to do.
"

Oh, my, nmh. From my tagline, you should already know that I don't believe in any deities at all. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the interesting phenomenon of one denomination taking from the Bible that speaking in tongues is an important thing, while others think it is not.

As for which of those early writings are in the Bible and which are not, that's a subject that could be discussed at length, but it's not the subject of this thread.

I know when the Canon of the Bible was established. That's not the point here. You say that tongues are no longer useful. Other say they are. I'm still waiting for your actual argument, based on scripture, as to why they are no longer useful.

My point, as always, is about the internal disputes between the various denominations of Christianity. That is the subject I find interesting.


147 posted on 10/20/2006 1:16:05 PM PDT by MineralMan (Non-evangelical Atheist)
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To: nmh

What you keep avoiding over and over and over again is WHY you think tongues are necessary today when we have His WRITTEN Word for teachings, doctrines, beliefs etc..
= = = =

I wasn't aware that

THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL LEAD US INTO ALL TRUTH

had been removed from even the rubber Bibles so common hereon.


148 posted on 10/20/2006 1:16:55 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: nmh; All

Do you think God is stupid? Did He leave things out that must be spoken in tongues that most will NOT understand?
= = =

I don't know if this is a convoluted straw dog

or

a red herring

or

a STRAW-RED-DOG-HERRING

Incredible.

- - - -

Ladies and Gentlemen, boys and girls, dogs and cats . . .

The END TIMES are here and more so looming . . .

Believers far and wide will be escaping to various safe havens; temporary locations etc . . .

Of course . . . the perspective being responded to . . . evidently trusts that such folks . . . as they are

RUNNING AND NOT GETTING WEARY . . .

will pull out their trusty KJV's and . . . hurridly scan umpteen thousand words to find out which path to take;

which fork in the forest to forsake;

which cave to trust in;

which spring to drink from;

which rock to find food under;

. . .

since, it's ALL claimed to be in THE WRITTEN WORD.

ROTFLOL;

ROTFLOLUMSAE

[Rolling On the Floor Laughing Out Loud Until My Sides Ache Excruciatingly].

Then crying about such a terminally dangerous attitude--particularly for these times.


149 posted on 10/20/2006 1:23:03 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: nmh

Nor, evidently, respond thoughtfully and Biblically to any of the 10 given.


150 posted on 10/20/2006 1:23:49 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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