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Major Baptist seminary rejects practice of speaking in tongues
Kansas City Star ^ | Oct. 17, 2006 | Brett Hoffman

Posted on 10/19/2006 5:44:54 PM PDT by split

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1 posted on 10/19/2006 5:44:55 PM PDT by split
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To: split

I See no reason as to why speaking in tongues is necessary. I also question its legitimacy for today.


2 posted on 10/19/2006 5:46:37 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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To: nmh

Having been raised Baptist and Now Methodist, I have never spoken in tongues. I don't know why it has to be outlawed though.


3 posted on 10/19/2006 5:48:02 PM PDT by AmericanMade1776
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To: split
Strictly speaking, I'd say they didn't ban speaking in tongues.

They may, however, have banned babbling incoherently and calling it tongues.

Dan
Biblical Christianity BLOG
Pyromaniacs
Straight Talk on Tongues

4 posted on 10/19/2006 5:48:54 PM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: nmh

Well, it was never outlawed in Scripture. Paul even said he did it. But he seemed to imply it was being abused. Much like today.


5 posted on 10/19/2006 5:49:19 PM PDT by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: nmh

Not a Southern Baptist, but BRAVO!


6 posted on 10/19/2006 5:49:37 PM PDT by Hambone02
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To: nmh

Well, apparently you agree with this policy. I think you'll find that lots of people see glossolalia as being a sign of being saved. Are you so sure they're wrong? Do you feel all that comfortable in simply dismissing glossolalia?

Having read many posts you have written, I've come to the conclusion that you have a very, very narrow view of Christianity. Somehow, I doubt that you are learned enough to form that view in any reliable way.

Christianity encompasses a very, very wide range of doctrines. Are you absolutely certain that your doctrinal beliefs are the correct ones? If so, please explain what gives you that confidence.

Otherwise, you might want to give Christians who don't share your exact beliefs a little slack, eh?


7 posted on 10/19/2006 5:50:36 PM PDT by MineralMan (Non-evangelical Atheist)
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To: MineralMan

kl'jfdlkjdsfn, ldksfj'ldsf, sdfoiuerwioyudshfd~ jildfshd. fjhds?


8 posted on 10/19/2006 5:51:46 PM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: durasell

Your keyboard appears to be broken. I write and understand English just fine. I do OK in Spanish, French, and Russian, as well. I don't do gibberish.


9 posted on 10/19/2006 5:52:37 PM PDT by MineralMan (Non-evangelical Atheist)
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To: durasell

l;kj;lekjdd, ldlekidn! &#&$&^#!


10 posted on 10/19/2006 5:52:41 PM PDT by Hambone02
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To: split
"speaking in tongue" means?? something other then English???
11 posted on 10/19/2006 5:54:17 PM PDT by camas
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To: MineralMan

Poor joke. Sorry.


12 posted on 10/19/2006 5:54:28 PM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: nmh

It really doesn't matter what we have to say. God's word which is the final authority says:

I Corinth 14:37-40

37 Anyone who claims to be a prophet, or to have spiritual powers, must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. 38Anyone who does not recognize this is not to be recognized. 39So, my friends,* be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; 40but all things should be done decently and in order.


13 posted on 10/19/2006 5:54:34 PM PDT by DarthVader (Conservatives aren't always right , but Liberals are almost always wrong.)
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To: durasell

I ran your post through Babelfish....Gibberish to English.

My response: Ramalamadingdong bufestus ordway.


14 posted on 10/19/2006 5:54:47 PM PDT by MineralMan (Non-evangelical Atheist)
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To: BibChr
They may, however, have banned babbling incoherently and calling it tongues.

Bingo.

I've been to some charismatic worship services, both Protestant and Catholic. Although I can certainly accept that the Lord might, as an expression of His grace and power, give someone the ability to pray in German or Urdu or Navajo, what I've heard is people saying, "abadababadababadabibadaboobada" and saying that this was some ancient language unknown to modern scholarship. Uh, no. If you're feeling especially in touch with the Lord while you're doing this, fine, but don't pretend you've been the recipient of some miraculous knowledge from God.

15 posted on 10/19/2006 5:55:06 PM PDT by Fairview
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To: DarthVader

Thank you.


16 posted on 10/19/2006 5:55:49 PM PDT by Sister_T (Conservative Bloggers are "Undocumented Journalists" ... doing the job "real journalists" won't do!)
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To: nmh
Institutionalized unbelief....

Amazing....

17 posted on 10/19/2006 5:56:03 PM PDT by Wings-n-Wind (All of the answers remain available; Wisdom is gained by asking the right questions!)
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To: DarthVader

1 Corinthians 14:6
Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?


18 posted on 10/19/2006 5:59:19 PM PDT by Hambone02
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To: Wings-n-Wind; nmh

It is amazing. I'm frequently amazed at the statements of people who believe that they are the sole bearer of all knowledge regarding Christianity.

How strange it is. I'll wager that most of those who are extremely dogmatic about something like glossolalia could not find the biblical references used by those to believe that it is a valid part of Christianity.

Yet...they're pleased to tell you that there is nothing to it, and that those who practice is are phonies.

Christianity is such a diverse religion...so many sects and denominations. Very odd.


19 posted on 10/19/2006 5:59:39 PM PDT by MineralMan (Non-evangelical Atheist)
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To: Hambone02

Corinthians 14:5
I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


20 posted on 10/19/2006 6:01:31 PM PDT by Hambone02
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To: Hambone02

Ah...Paul might seem to contradict himself, and in the same chapter of I Corinthians. Read the entire chapter, though, and you'll see that there is no contradiction.

Paul doesn't forbid glossolalia...he merely says that it is not required of Christians. There is a big difference.

Some denominations believe that glossolalia is proof of salvation. Others dismiss it as nonsense. Paul, on the other hand, admits that it is a valid expression, but not required of Christians.

Quoting out of contex is rarely useful.


21 posted on 10/19/2006 6:02:26 PM PDT by MineralMan (Non-evangelical Atheist)
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To: Hambone02

Corinthians 14:23
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?


22 posted on 10/19/2006 6:02:34 PM PDT by Hambone02
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To: Hambone02

Tongues is confusion in today's "tongues". When the Apostles spoke in tongues in the Bible, others understood. Today it is a big show for self gratification.


23 posted on 10/19/2006 6:06:23 PM PDT by Hambone02
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To: DarthVader

Be careful not to take scripture out of context. Paul set very specific conditions for the speaking of tongues...

Check v. 27


24 posted on 10/19/2006 6:08:07 PM PDT by TheBattman (I've got TWO QUESTIONS for you....)
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To: TheBattman

I know and I know the whole chapter inside and out. I'm not talking about incoherent babble but the real thing. Verse 40 says that all needs to be done in order.

1Corinthians 14
14Pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy. 2For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit. 3On the other hand, those who prophesy speak to other people for their building up and encouragement and consolation. 4Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church. 5Now I would like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.
6 Now, brothers and sisters,* if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I speak to you in some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? 7It is the same way with lifeless instruments that produce sound, such as the flute or the harp. If they do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is being played? 8And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9So with yourselves; if in a tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10There are doubtless many different kinds of sounds in the world, and nothing is without sound. 11If then I do not know the meaning of a sound, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 12So with yourselves; since you are eager for spiritual gifts, strive to excel in them for building up the church.
13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unproductive. 15What should I do then? I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray with the mind also; I will sing praise with the spirit, but I will sing praise with the mind also. 16Otherwise, if you say a blessing with the spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say the ‘Amen’ to your thanksgiving, since the outsider does not know what you are saying? 17For you may give thanks well enough, but the other person is not built up. 18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you; 19nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20 Brothers and sisters,* do not be children in your thinking; rather, be infants in evil, but in thinking be adults. 21In the law it is written,
‘By people of strange tongues
and by the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people;
yet even then they will not listen to me,’
says the Lord. 22Tongues, then, are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if all prophesy, an unbeliever or outsider who enters is reproved by all and called to account by all. 25After the secrets of the unbeliever’s heart are disclosed, that person will bow down before God and worship him, declaring, ‘God is really among you.’
26 What should be done then, my friends?* When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. 28But if there is no one to interpret, let them be silent in church and speak to themselves and to God. 29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30If a revelation is made to someone else sitting nearby, let the first person be silent. 31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged. 32And the spirits of prophets are subject to the prophets, 33for God is a God not of disorder but of peace.
(As in all the churches of the saints, 34women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says. 35If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.* 36Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached?)
37 Anyone who claims to be a prophet, or to have spiritual powers, must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. 38Anyone who does not recognize this is not to be recognized. 39So, my friends,* be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; 40but all things should be done decently and in order.


25 posted on 10/19/2006 6:14:26 PM PDT by DarthVader (Conservatives aren't always right , but Liberals are almost always wrong.)
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To: MineralMan
God's power... manifest in God's people...
Is God's idea...
(So begins an excellent Biblical seminar on spiritual gifts that has turned around more than a few dispensationalists...)

...The mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations.... which is now disclosed...

...The glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
--Colossians 1:26-27 (excerpted /paraphrased)

26 posted on 10/19/2006 6:15:05 PM PDT by Wings-n-Wind (All of the answers remain available; Wisdom is gained by asking the right questions!)
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To: All

I come from a Catholic, then Lutheran, then Presbyterian, and now Baptist Church. In each church there were those I truly believe will meet me on the other side of Glory. In none of these churches did anyone speak in tongues.

Why does it only happen in certain churches? Is it because the Good Lord just doesn't think we needed it? Or will some claim that we were not truly followers of Christ and not given this gift?

What is said in by the people given this gift? Has there been prophecy that was not fulfilled or does not hold to Biblical scrutiny?


27 posted on 10/19/2006 6:48:35 PM PDT by Ottofire (Fire Tempers Steel)
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To: AppyPappy
Well, it was never outlawed in Scripture.

Indeed, it is commanded that it be included in church services. 1 Cor 14:37 is the concluding commandment (of the Lord) for what is to be included in a church service (26-36). Let those who nullify the New Testament commands of God, do so at their own risk.

28 posted on 10/19/2006 6:49:28 PM PDT by aimhigh
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To: MineralMan

First Corinthians 14:5 is often quoted to prove that the gift of tongues is still operative today: "Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying." Why do some put the emphasis on tongues when Paul said that he had a greater desire for the people to prophesy? I do not have anyone coming around to my door saying that I need to get the gift of prophecy, but I have people praying that I will get the gift of tongues. Paul is saying that he would like them to have all the gifts, but he would rather that they have the greater gifts. Paul is not saying that tongues is the gift they should have. If they should have any, it should be the greater gift of prophecy. The gift of tongues was the least important of all the spiritual gifts. It was last on the list (see 1 Cor. 12:28).


29 posted on 10/19/2006 6:50:06 PM PDT by Hambone02
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To: durasell
kl'jfdlkjdsfn, ldksfj'ldsf, sdfoiuerwioyudshfd~ jildfshd. fjhds?

Don't pee facing into the wind...

I've never interpreted before, but that's what I got out of it...

30 posted on 10/19/2006 6:50:54 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: durasell
Poor joke. Sorry.

Speaking as a member of the Assemblies of God (one of the must tongue-speaking Churches there is).......LOL!

31 posted on 10/19/2006 6:51:33 PM PDT by Onelifetogive (* Sarcasm tag ALWAYS required. For some Freepers, sarcasm can NEVER be obvious enough.)
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To: nmh

I'll bet you also think the statement, "Don't put on a Yankees uniform if you play for the Mets." a relavent statement also don't you? ROFLMAO


32 posted on 10/19/2006 6:51:35 PM PDT by phoenix0468 (http://www.mylocalforum.com -- Go Speak Your Mind.)
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To: Hambone02

These gifts were gifts to the Apostles and early believers.


33 posted on 10/19/2006 6:52:58 PM PDT by Hambone02
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To: durasell

That's not tounges durasell, that's giberish, and it's not what the Bible, nor those who have performed the feat are describing. Those who speak in toungs acutally speak another language, without having any knowledge of the language whatsoever. It has been recoreded, and the content of the language is as literate as if it were spoken in the persons native tounge. So, if you're such a skeptic and cynic, so be it, but it has happened, and it is referenced in the Bible.


34 posted on 10/19/2006 6:55:21 PM PDT by phoenix0468 (http://www.mylocalforum.com -- Go Speak Your Mind.)
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To: Hambone02

Why does everyone focus so much on tongues? What about the other gifts of the Spirit? Prophecy, Healing, miracles, discerning spirits, etc.

My guess is Tongues is the only one of the above you can fake and not easily disprove.


35 posted on 10/19/2006 7:02:29 PM PDT by Hambone02
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To: phoenix0468

I am a cynic, but it was a joke. Whether it is an actual language or not is pretty much a moot point -- it's not nice to make jokes about someone's belief system. And, I did apologize.


36 posted on 10/19/2006 7:05:18 PM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: durasell

I thought it was pretty funny.


37 posted on 10/19/2006 7:07:14 PM PDT by Hambone02
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To: Hambone02

We live in a politically correct age. Jokes about religion aren't welcome in most places.


38 posted on 10/19/2006 7:09:36 PM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: durasell

That really sucks for us non-politacally correct types.


39 posted on 10/19/2006 7:11:32 PM PDT by Hambone02
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To: Hambone02

There's always Mel Brooks and his protege Dave Chappelle --imagine Mel Brooks trying to make his 1960s/1970s movies today.


40 posted on 10/19/2006 7:14:31 PM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: split
The Pastor said he sometimes speaks in tongues when he prays and the statement says they don't endorse "private prayer language"

I know some folks babel when they pray in private because rather than concentrating on the words they just spoke, or about to speak, etc. It frees their mind for spontaneous expression of worship.

Some call it tongues for lack of a better word. What's occurring in their private prayer is not what most of us would consider the biblical definition of speaking in tongues.

Perhaps that is what this is all about.
41 posted on 10/19/2006 7:58:04 PM PDT by MP5SD
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To: nmh
This is not about someone's belief whether glossolalia is necessary.

It is about Baptists, who otherwise profess believing in the Bible, expelling someone for behaving according to I Corinthians 12-14.

42 posted on 10/19/2006 8:00:06 PM PDT by unspun (What do you think? Please think, before you answer.)
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To: nmh

(Correction: not expelling, all-but condemning.)


43 posted on 10/19/2006 8:01:17 PM PDT by unspun (What do you think? Please think, before you answer.)
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To: split

**Major Baptist seminary rejects practice of speaking in tongues**

One of the fruits of the Holy Spirit -- does the Baptist Church NOT believe in the Holy Spirit?


44 posted on 10/19/2006 8:50:58 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: BibChr
There was a man who laid hands on me at a prayer meeting, and I started speaking "something". He was John Wesley Fletcher. He is the man who introduced Jessica Hahn to Jim Bakker. I could write a book about what I was involved in. Most of them are dead now. One woman I knew who later died of a heart attack had prayed across the table from a man for protection against his wanting to have sex with her once they got to her home. He dropped dead in front of her at the restaurant of a heart attack. It was eerie all the things that happened in those days.

Catholics didn't speak in tongues until they imported it from a Protestant prayer group somewhere out east.

I think the original tongues among the early Christians was understood as a real language, although there is some confusion about it in Corinthians. Corinth was heavily saturated with pagans who spoke glossallia which is not the same as the genuine tongues. St. Paul said "tongues will cease". Some of the early fathers of the church a couple of centuries later said the gift had disappeared. Some of the source info is not on the net any more that I can find.

I think it is evil for these people to intimidate people into babbling or telling them they are not saved if they don't speak in tongues.

Also, I would warn anyone to be careful who you allow to lay hands on you and pray over you. I told everyone in my family to say away from it. So far they have.

45 posted on 10/19/2006 9:37:28 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: split

I suspect Southwestern Baptist Seminary may be on shaky ground.

Having said that, I am not a charismatic nor a Pentacostal, but I firmly believe there is a proper place for speaking in tongues, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and in accordance with scripture.

I have never heard it (although I have heard gibberish by the likes of Jimmy Swaggert and his ilk), and I suppose I may never hear it.

But to ban the encouragement of it seems unscriptural to me.


46 posted on 10/19/2006 9:48:02 PM PDT by norge
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To: norge

"but I firmly believe there is a proper place for speaking in tongues, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and in accordance with scripture."

I'm with you. I never understood the gift of tongues to be a sign of being saved. I thought it was a specific gift given to a person who had a gospel message to give to another whose language he or she did not normally speak. In other words, it was a means of bringing the Lord's message to those who might not otherwise hear it unless someone was blessed with the ability to speak it in their language.

What happened on the Day of Pentacost is that the Apostles were able to testify to the myriad of people around them who spoke different languages. They didn't speak gibberish; they spoke real languages of the people around them and were understood by at least one of the crowd who were there and who would have missed the message had the miracle not occurred. Where there is the gift of tongues, there is another person who understands exactly what was said and that person is one intended to receive a message from the Lord.

By my understanding, speaking gibberish or having private prayer language may be some sign from the Lord but it isn't the gift of tongues. The most definitive sign of the gift of tongues today is a little more mundane. It is when missionaries of the gospel find it relatively easy to learn the obscure languages of the people to whom they are called to preach. Yet if the need arose, I would expect to see the same Day of Pentacost miracles happening today. The Lord expected his apostles and their disciples to preach the gospel to the entire world and the gift of tongues was a blessing to help accomplish that assignment.


47 posted on 10/19/2006 10:19:50 PM PDT by caseinpoint (Don't get thickly involved in thin things.)
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To: Ottofire
Why does it only happen in certain churches?

I think it's merely because the people who attend those churches are more open to it than the people in other denominations.

This very article we're discussing is about a Baptist speaking in tongues, so it can happen in other churches.

I used to dismiss it as gibberish too and judge people who practice it as being attention seekers. I'm a bit older now and realize that it's between the person and God. I now take people who speak in tongues, even the ones who seem to be loud and taking center stage, at face value and leave the judgment to God. When you get right down to it, it's really none of my business.

48 posted on 10/19/2006 10:22:55 PM PDT by alnick
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To: BibChr

I think that

THE BEST STRAIGHT TALK ON TONGUES FOR THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH AND THE CHURCH AGE . . . WAS ST PAUL WRITING EXHORTING CHRISTIANS ON VARIOUS THINGS . . . TONGUES AMONGST THEM:

1 Corinthians 14:5
I would that you ALL spake with tongues but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Of course, typically, congregations, denominations and inviduals that prefer to disobey Paul's exhortation in the Scripture above about tongues, also do it about prophecying. Kind of a mind-set stuck on naysaying, it seems, to me.


49 posted on 10/19/2006 10:25:51 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: DarthVader

INDEED.

FORBID NOT is Scripture . . .

the pontifications of man otherwise is not Scripture.


50 posted on 10/19/2006 10:27:24 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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