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Judaism Fulfilled (major misconceptions that many Jews have about the Catholic Church)
Ignatius Insight ^

Posted on 10/19/2006 8:01:52 PM PDT by NYer

IgnatiusInsight.com: As a convert from Judaism, what do you think are the major misconceptions that many Jews have about the Catholic Church? As a Catholic, what are the misconceptions that many Catholics have about Judaism and the Jewish people?

Roy H. Schoeman: Prior to my conversion, the central misconceptions I held about the Catholic Church was, of course, that it was in fundamental theological error, a misguided, naïve illegitimate offshoot of the true Judaism. I saw Catholics as misguided followers of a false Messiah engaging in a host of childish and superstitious practices.

I also had the mistaken belief that the Catholic Faith was "anti-Semitic" and denigrated Jews and Judaism. Nothing could be further from the truth. What greater honor could be accorded Judaism than to say that it is the religion of God Himself, and when God became Man, He became a Jew? What greater honor could be accorded to the Jewish race than to say that they alone, among all the peoples of the earth, are related by blood to the incarnate God? Or that it was from their race that came the only perfect human creature, the Blessed Virgin Mary? Even as the most fervent, enthusiastic Jew, I never could have ascribed a glory to Judaism comparable to that assigned it by the Catholic Faith.

The greatest misconception that Catholics hold about Jews is the terrible, pernicious one that somehow Jews don’t need Jesus! It is natural that Jews should hold this view – to them Jesus was, after all, a false Messiah who indirectly caused incalculable disaster to befall Jews – but it is tragic that, in the interest of "dialogue" and a false ecumenism, this view is sometimes voiced even by Catholics, and even by Catholics who believe that they are representing the Church.

This was one of my primary motivations for writing the book. No one can know as well as a Jew who has entered the Church how deeply Jews need Jesus and the sacraments to satisfy the archetypical "Jewish" thirst for God. This is what lies behind the fervor of most Jewish "converts" to bring as many of their fellow Jews as possible to their fulfillment as Jews by entering the Church. It is no coincidence that just days after he prayed to a God in whom he did not believe for help in "improving the lot of the Jews", the Jewish agnostic Alphonse Ratisbonne received an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary which resulted in his conversion, his becoming a priest, and his founding a religious order to pray for the conversion of the Jews.

Which brings me to the greatest single misconception that Jews have about the Church, that it is anti-Semitic. It is ironic that Jews make this accusation about the centuries when the Church actively evangelized the Jews, which they see as having been an "attack" on the Jews by the Church. In reality such evangelization is the greatest act of charity, of brotherly love, conceivable. On the other hand, Jews tend to think that today, in having abandoned its "mission to the Jews", the Church has finally ended its reign of anti-Semitism. In fact the exact opposite is true. What could be more anti-Semitic than refusing to share the Gospel, the Good News, the joy and fulfillment and salvation brought by the Jewish Messiah with the Jews themselves, through whom He first came?

Of course conversion must be left to the conscience of the individual, and his relationship with God should be respected whatever framework it is in, but the fullness of the Truth and the ultimate relationship with God is only found in the Catholic Church. How can Catholics refuse to even try to bring this treasure to the Jews? After all, it was to the Jews that Jesus first came, born a Jew to be the promised Jewish Messiah and to bring redemption to all mankind, but to the "Jew first and also the Greek" (Rom 1:16, 2:9, 2:10).

Avoiding sharing the Gospel with Jews is one of the greatest possible disservices to Jesus, who wept over the failure of His own to recognize Him (Luke 13, Matthew 23), as well as one of the greatest possible acts of "anti-Semitism" to the Jew, depriving him of his "own" God, of the blessings and promises which were made first to the Jews and only after were bestowed on the rest of humanity.

IgnatiusInsight.com: The second chapter is titled, "How Well Did the Jews Do?" What is the focus of that question and what is the short answer?

Schoeman: It is facile to think that because so few Jews followed Jesus, they failed in the mission for which they were chosen, that is, to bring the Messiah, salvation, to all mankind. But even to pose the issue this way is to see how false this conclusion must be. For obviously, the Jews did bring the Messiah to all mankind. Christianity has spread throughout the world, and so the Jews must have fundamentally succeeded in their assigned task.

They – or at least some of them were faithful servants of God praying for the Messiah before He came, faithful disciples of His during His life, and effective apostles of His after His death, spreading the knowledge of Him throughout the world. All these tasks were assigned to Jews, and all of them were fulfilled successfully, or else the Church could not have spread throughout the world. Of course this was the work of a relatively small percentage of Jews, a "faithful remnant", but that is the way God always works with mankind. The pattern is repeated time after time. In Old Testament times, one can think of Noah, of how his virtue resulted in the human race surviving the flood, of Sodom and Gemorrah and how God was willing to spare them if only ten virtuous men could be found, of how for the sake of Moses God spared the entire Jewish race during the Exodus.

On and on and on, even to recent times, when during the 1930’s Jesus told St. Faustina that it was for her sake that He would withhold the worst of His wrath, not only on Poland but on the whole earth. Thus it is always a very small percentage – a "Faithful remnant" – whether of Jews or of Catholics, who are truly pleasing to God and bring down blessings -- who "carry the load" if you will -- for the rest. This theme is developed quite fully in the book.

IgnatiusInsight.com: How has Judaism changed over the centuries, especially since the first century A.D.? What is the present state of Judaism?

Schoeman: In the book I detail three major shifts in Jewish theology over the past two thousand years.

The first was the one necessitated by the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The entire sacramental system of Judaism as laid out in the Old Testament was dependent on animal sacrifices that required the existence of the Temple in Jerusalem. When the Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70 such sacrifices were no longer possible, and so the Jews were left with no way to purify themselves or atone for sins. Thus the entire system "broke down". In response to this crisis, the leading Rabbis convened in nearby Jamnia and redefined the sacramental system of Judaism, replacing the role of animal sacrifice with good works, prayer, fasting, almsgiving, etc. This revision of Judaism is known as "Rabbinic Judaism" as opposed to the former "Temple Judaism", and serves as the foundation for the Judaism that still exists today.

The second major shift in Judaism occurred in part in response the threat of Jewish conversion to Christianity, and in part simply as a result of the "Enlightenment" with its the replacement of a theocentric world view with a more materialistic one. That was the negation of the expectation of a personal Messiah that had always previously been at the very center of Judaism. Today, a minority of Jews still believe in the coming of the Messiah, yet this is in direct contradiction to all that Judaism had formerly held. For instance, the greatest of Jewish Rabbinical authorities of the Middle Ages, Maimonides, taught that almost the only thing a Jew could do which would sever him from the Jewish community, and forfeit his share in the world to come, was to not believe in the coming of the Messiah.

Finally, and perhaps most tragically, partly as a result of the Holocaust and partly as a result of the further influence of modernism, many Jews no longer even believe in an all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing God active in human affairs. As one prominent contemporary Jewish theologian put it, traditional views of God the Redeemer must be abandoned "in the presence of burning children". Thus Judaism, which introduced to all of mankind the knowledge of the all-good and all-powerful loving God has come full circle, at least in its more modern manifestations. The more orthodox "denominations", which comprise only a few percent of today’s Jews, have done a better job of maintaining the historic Jewish faith.

IgnatiusInsight.com: Catholic-Jewish relations have had a high profile in recent years. What have been some of the positives of discussions between Catholics and Jews on an official (or semi-official) level? What negatives, if any, have resulted?

Schoeman: Probably the greatest good that has resulted is the diminution of some negative stereotypes held by some on both sides, and the recognition of the goodwill, earnestness, and love of God shared by genuinely religious Jews and genuinely religious Catholics. There has also been a gratifying increase in the appreciation Catholics have for Judaism and the Hebrew scriptures. The Jewish side has come to understand that, rather than having contempt for Judaism, genuine Catholicism holds it in the highest regard as the religion and people into which God incarnated. I think it was St. Ignatius who said that he would consider it the highest honor if found he had Jewish blood in him, thus being related by the flesh to God made Man.

There has been, however, also a very notable downside. Both sides have an interest in establishing ground rules that enable the dialog to move forward in an atmosphere that minimizes tension and conflict. One of those rules seems to have been an initial understanding that there would be no attempt on the Catholic side to evangelize the Jews. This "understanding" seems to have evolved into the theology that the Catholic Church now understands that such evangelization is inappropriate -- that Jews have their own way to God, the Old Covenant, and the Catholics theirs, the New.

This "dual covenant" theology seems to have been adopted to avoid the intrinsic, basic conflict at the heart of the Jewish-Catholic dialog. That is that either the Catholic Church is itself the continuation of Judaism after the coming of the Jewish Messiah – i.e., the Church is post-Messianic Judaism – or it is nothing at all. After all, according to the Catholic Faith, Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. Jesus was the point of Judaism, the fulfillment of all its hopes, for which the Jews had prayed for millennia. When He came, He came to the Jews as a Jew, to bring the Jews themselves first into the new relationship between God and Man that we know as the Catholic Church. A Jew who does not recognize this is fundamentally missing the central point of his own religion, however beautiful the accoutrements are.

Naturally, such a view openly expressed would immediately torpedo the goodwill and collegiality of the dialog group, yet without it there is not much Catholic Faith left. So the hard Truth must be replaced either by meaningless verbal meanderings, or outright heresy such as the "dual covenant" theory. Such a theory poses no threat to the Jews, since according to it Jesus came only for the Gentiles, not for the Jews, and never intended for the Jews to convert. This preserves the convivial atmosphere and enables the meetings to continue year after year, but at the cost of negating the Faith. It was just such heresies taking root in ecumenical circles that necessitated the basic restatement of the Faith in "Dominus Iesus", and the firestorm that that document produced in Catholic-Jewish dialog circles is evidence of how sorely it was needed.


(Read Part Two of this exclusive interview with Roy H. Schoeman.)


The author, Roy H. Schoeman, was born in a suburb of New York City of “Conservative" Jewish parents who had fled Nazi Germany.  His Jewish education and formation was received under some of the most prominent Rabbis in contemporary American Jewry, including Rabbi Arthur Hertzberg, probably the foremost Conservative Rabbi in the U.S. and his hometown Rabbi growing up;  Rabbi Arthur Green, later the head of the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College who was his religion teacher and mentor during high school and early college; and Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach, a prominent Hasidic Rabbi with whom he lived in Israel for several months.

His secular education included a B.Sc. from M.I.T. and an M.B.A. magna cum laude from Harvard Business School. Midway through a career of teaching and consulting (he had been appointed to the faculty of the Harvard Business School) he experienced an unexpected and instantaneous conversion to Christianity which led to a dramatic refocus of his activities. Since then he has pursued theological studies at several seminaries, helped produce and host a Catholic Television talk show, and edited and written for several Catholic books and reviews.  This is his first full-length book.

Visit Roy's website, which contains much more information about Salvation is from the Jews, at www.salvationisfromthejews.com.


Salvation is from the Jews:
The Role of Judaism in Salvation History from Abraham to the Second Coming


Author: Roy H. Schoeman
Length: 395 pages
Edition: Paperback
Your Price: $16.95

Salvation is From the Jews traces the role of Judaism and the Jewish people in God’s plan for the salvation of mankind, from Abraham through the Second Coming, as revealed by the Catholic faith and by a thoughtful examination of history. It will give Christians a deeper understanding of Judaism, both as a religion in itself and as a central component of Christian salvation.

To Jews it reveals the incomprehensible importance, nobility and glory that Judaism most truly has. It examines the unique and central role Judaism plays in the destiny of the world. It documents that throughout history attacks on Jews and Judaism have been rooted not in Christianity, but in the most anti-Christian of forces.

Areas addressed include: the Messianic prophecies in Jewish scripture; the anti-Christian roots of Nazi anti-Semitism; the links between Nazism and Arab anti-Semitism; the theological insights of major Jewish converts; and the role of the Jews in the Second Coming.

“Perplexed by controversies new and old about the destiny of the Jewish people? Read this book by a Jew who became a Catholic for a well-written, provocative, ground-breaking account. Some of the answers most have never heard before.”

—Ronda Chervin, Ph.D., Hebrew-Catholic


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Judaism; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic
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1 posted on 10/19/2006 8:01:54 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

PART TWO


IgnatiusInsight.com: You have a lengthy chapter titled, "The Messianic Idea in Judaism." Traditionally, what were the messianic expectations of Jews? What are those expectations today?

Roy H. Schoeman: There is no question that historically, traditionally, Judaism has expected – has, in fact, entirely revolved around – the expectation of a "personal" Messiah, an actual man who would come and would change the world, the relation between God and Man, and the state of the soul after death. Beyond that, there was a lot of uncertainty, a number of apparent contradictions among individual prophecies. These ambiguities revolved around two issues – would the Messiah come as victorious king to establish a temporal Kingdom of the Jews, or would he come to suffer and die as an apparent failure? And would he immediately make this world into a perfect world, or would this world continue on outwardly as before? As Christians, it is easy to understand that the resolution to the apparent contradictions between the prophecies is found in the fact that the Messiah will come twice, the first time to suffer and to die, and the second time to bring an end to the imperfections of this world. In fact, some of the Talmudic rabbis came very close to this conclusion themselves, in their expectation of two distinct Messiahs. All of this is elaborated on in the book.

However there is very little active expectation of the coming of the Messiah among Jews today, with the exception of a small percentage at the most traditional end of the spectrum. Most no longer hold any Messianic expectation. Many contemporary Jewish authorities even deny that Judaism ever expected the coming of a Messiah. I can’t help suspecting that this retroactive revision of Jewish theology is motivated by a desire to distance Judaism even further from Christianity. In any case, it is commonly stated that the Messianic prophecies in the Jewish scriptures refer to the Jewish people as a whole transforming the world through their good will and good actions. This nonsense falls apart as soon as one examines any Jewish writings from before the 18th century. Nonetheless many Jews today believe it, having been taught it by contemporary Jewish authorities and never having gone back to earlier sources.

IgnatiusInsight.com: What effect has the Holocaust had on Jewish theology?

Schoeman: Historically, Judaism always taught that (a) God is all-good and all-powerful, (b) that He has a special love for the Jews as His Chosen people, and (c) that if they are faithful to Him He will reward them in the circumstances of this life. Unless one is willing to ascribe the Holocaust to the failure of the Jews to hold to their end of the covenant – an explanation acceptable to only a few among the most orthodox Jews -- one of these three propositions must go. Thus the tendency among contemporary Jewish theologians to deny God’s goodness, His involvement in human affairs, or His fidelity to His covenant. In the book I document each of these in the writings of some of today’s most prominent Jewish theologians. It is obscene to me that such blasphemies hold a place of honor in contemporary Jewish theology.

IgnatiusInsight.com: What were the ideological roots of Nazism? Was Nazism and its rabid anti-Semitism a result or form of Christian theology as some critics claim?

Schoeman: There is a horrible calumny, which has become only too prevalent in recent years, that somehow Nazism sprang from the bosom of the Catholic Church. In the book I show, in sometimes gruesome detail, how Nazism is, on the contrary, the offspring – the "Rosemary’s Baby" if you will -- of the two diabolical parents occultism and atheistic eugenics. In the book I trace these two streams over many decades – eugenics, typified by Margaret Sanger and her organization, and virtually the same schools of occultism that are with us today as the "New Age" – fertilizing each other, and reaching fruition in the birth, policies, and practices of the Nazi movement. Hitler drew his own philosophy and ideas from these two sources, a fact that is evident in his own statements, in the details of his personal history, and in the people he relied on. All of this is documented from primary sources in the book.

IgnatiusInsight.com: What is the relationship between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant? What mistaken ideas about that relationship can be found in the controversial document, "Reflections on Covenant and Mission" (August 2002)?

Schoeman: The only way to understand the relationship between the two covenants is to see that Judaism is nothing other than pre-Messianic Catholicism, and that the Catholic Church is nothing other than post-Messianic Judaism. They are one and the same religion, separated only by the change in the nature of the relationship between God and Man that came about as a result of the central event in the history of the world, the incarnation of God as Man. All of the differences, and all of the similarities, between the two flow from this fact.

The document that you mention was an unfortunate attempt at a false irenicism, reflecting the "dual-covenant" theory mentioned earlier. It was produced by members of the Bishops’ Committee on Interreligious and Ecumenical Affairs and published without the permission of the director of the committee, who upon finding out immediately had it retracted. It disappeared from the USCCB website within days, to be replaced by a notice by the Bishop in charge that it had only been an internal working document and did not represent the position of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Bishops' Committee for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs.

IgnatiusInsight.com: As you show, there is quite a bit of material in Scripture and in official Catholic teaching about the Jews and the Second Coming of Christ. What are some of the main points made about that event in relation to the Jewish people?

Schoeman: First of all, the most central point that I try to make is that, just as the Jews had a special and key role to play in the First Coming of Christ, they have a central role to play in His Second Coming, too. The role that they have yet to play provides the explanation for the continued existence of the Jewish people over the past two thousand years, the persistence and virulence of anti-Semitism century after century, the rise of Islam, the role of the Holocaust in God’s plan, and the emergence of the State of Israel. Scriptural keys to unlocking this mystery include Jesus’ prophecies in Luke 21:20-24 and Matthew 23:39, and St. Paul’s extended discussion in Romans 9-11. I can’t do justice to the arguments themselves within the limits of this interview – I will have to refer the interested reader to the book!


IgnatiusInsight.com: Romans 9-11 is a difficult and much-debated passage of Scripture. What do you think is the main intention of St. Paul in that passage and what does it teach us about the relationship between the Church and the Jewish people?

Schoeman: In some sense, my entire book is a "Midrash" (a Talmudic term roughly meaning "commentary") on Romans 9-11, and the chapter that serves as the summary of the entire book is a verse-by-verse explication of it. The passage is undoubtedly the single most powerful key to unlocking the mystery of the relationship between Jew and Gentile; for now, all I can say is that there is a mystery there, a huge one, which is at the very center of the unfolding of salvation history, not only leading up to the First Coming but also leading up to the Second.

IgnatiusInsight.com: Your conversion to the Catholic Faith was a dramatic one. What has been the reaction to your conversion among Jewish friends and acquaintances? What reaction has Salvation Is From the Jews received among Jews?

Schoeman: The reactions to my conversion have ranged from the purple-faced rage of one of the mentor-Rabbis of my childhood, to patronizing condescension, to bemused interest, to active inquiry. The last is, of course, the most gratifying; especially one Jewish friend who then read my book and followed me to the Baptismal font. Perhaps typical is the comment of my best friend from graduate school, an orthodox Jew, who simply shrugged and said somewhat sympathetically, "Well, you’re not the first…"

Overall the response by Jewish readers has been warmer than I hoped. I must admit that I chose the title, a direct quote of the words of Jesus in John 4:22, largely to appeal to them and pique their interest. Those Jews would have a hostile reaction probably simply don’t read the book.

2 posted on 10/19/2006 8:06:10 PM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer

Maybe if anti-semetic remarks in the NT are removed Jews could take this author seriously.


3 posted on 10/19/2006 8:34:24 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

Maybe if anti-semetic remarks in the NT are removed >>

which ones are those?


4 posted on 10/19/2006 9:28:31 PM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, geese, algae)
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To: NYer

Fascinating interview, thanks for posting it!


5 posted on 10/19/2006 9:46:24 PM PDT by Ronaldus Magnus
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Weren't all remarks in the New Testament on any topic made by Jews?

6 posted on 10/19/2006 10:09:44 PM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

"Maybe if anti-semetic remarks in the NT are removed Jews could take this author seriously."

I think you just lived up to your name. Especially the second word.


7 posted on 10/19/2006 11:45:30 PM PDT by flaglady47 (thinking out loud)
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To: Ronaldus Magnus; samiam1972
Fascinating interview, thanks for posting it!

If you have not yet read his book, Salvation is From The Jews, I strongly encourage you to do so. This interview complements it. Just consider this comment:

The only way to understand the relationship between the two covenants is to see that Judaism is nothing other than pre-Messianic Catholicism, and that the Catholic Church is nothing other than post-Messianic Judaism. They are one and the same religion, separated only by the change in the nature of the relationship between God and Man that came about as a result of the central event in the history of the world, the incarnation of God as Man. All of the differences, and all of the similarities, between the two flow from this fact.

8 posted on 10/20/2006 3:34:52 AM PDT by NYer
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To: justiceseeker93

Ping for your interest about what Christians really believe about Jews.


9 posted on 10/20/2006 3:44:05 AM PDT by hlmencken3 (Originalist on the the 'general welfare' clause? No? NOT an originalist!)
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To: Brad Cloven

"Older Brother" Ping :)


10 posted on 10/20/2006 5:06:40 AM PDT by NewCenturions
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Maybe if anti-semetic remarks in the NT are removed Jews could take this author seriously.

*************

Maybe if you could supply us with those remarks we could take you seriously.

11 posted on 10/20/2006 5:37:02 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: trisham
History of Anti-Semitism

{pay especially close attention from the 5th C forward} what might the reason be for this?

13 posted on 10/20/2006 6:54:25 AM PDT by APRPEH (id theft info available on my profile page)
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To: APRPEH
You got me. The post I responded to specifically addressed antisemitism in the New Testament.
14 posted on 10/20/2006 7:05:20 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: APRPEH

Did you know that until the destruction of the temple Christians were actually thought to be a Jewish Sect?


15 posted on 10/20/2006 7:30:19 AM PDT by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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To: Jaded

I believe for even longer than that.


16 posted on 10/20/2006 7:34:24 AM PDT by APRPEH (id theft info available on my profile page)
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To: Jaded
history
17 posted on 10/20/2006 7:35:15 AM PDT by APRPEH (id theft info available on my profile page)
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To: Jaded
How can Catholics refuse to even try to bring this treasure to the Jews?

After centuries of being pilloried for trying to "convert" the jews - the church is taking a time out for public relations. But as JPII said - the Jews have their own covenant with God. That was his way of saying - lay off and leave well enough alone.

18 posted on 10/20/2006 7:48:48 AM PDT by x_plus_one
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To: x_plus_one
the Jews have their own covenant with God. That was his way of saying - lay off and leave well enough alone.

Are you saying that the New Covenant is not for the Jews? Did all the Apostles, who were Jewish, follow the wrong covenant??

-A8

19 posted on 10/20/2006 8:34:43 AM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: William Terrell
Weren't all remarks in the New Testament on any topic made by Jews?

If you believe the finished product of Matthew, Mark, Luke & John's gospels were penned by them exclusively I can't help ya.

20 posted on 10/20/2006 8:51:15 AM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Coleus
which ones are those?

Here are just a few to wet the appetite. If you need any more, let me know.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate.” (Matthew 23.37,38)

Then answered all the people (Jews) and said, “His blood be on us and on our children” (Matthew 27:25)

“But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you to councils, and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten” (Mark 13.9)

“Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And I say the truth, why do you not believe me? He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8.43-47)

“Stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so you do. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers” (Acts 7.51-53)

“It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing you put it from you and judge yourself unworthy of everlasting life, we turn to the Gentiles” (Acts 13.45-51)

“For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake ... wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.” (Titus 1.10-14).

“The Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God and are contrary to all men: forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” (l Thessalonians 2.14-16)

“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is an antichrist, that denieth the father and the son. Whoever denieth the son, the same hath not the father” (l John 2.22,23)

“I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan ...” (Revelation 2.9,10)

“Behold I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews and are not but do lie; behold I will make them to come and worship before thy feet...” (Revelation 3.9)

21 posted on 10/20/2006 8:59:27 AM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: trisham
Maybe if you could supply us with those remarks we could take you seriously.

#21. Enjoy.

22 posted on 10/20/2006 9:02:22 AM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

Hmmm ... That all ya got? Nothing anti-Semitic there. YOU, personally, may well not like it ... but that's a whole different matter.


23 posted on 10/20/2006 9:03:57 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Those verses are not "anti-Semitic"; they are anti-[rejection of Jesus as the Messiah].

Otherwise, every Jew who accepts Jesus as the Messiah is "anti-Semitic". Talk about begging the question!

-A8

24 posted on 10/20/2006 9:04:06 AM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: ArrogantBustard

YOU personally don't find it anti-semetic to refer to Jews as Liars, murderers and saying their father is the devil.
That's fine. Nothing ever changes really. But then don't expect me to sit back and never bring this to your attention. I don't roll like that.


25 posted on 10/20/2006 9:26:11 AM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: adiaireton8
Those verses are not "anti-Semitic"; they are anti-[rejection of Jesus as the Messiah].

Keep telling yourselft that.

26 posted on 10/20/2006 9:27:06 AM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
But then don't expect me to sit back and never bring this to your attention.

The only thing that you've "brought to my attention" is the inability of whoever compiled that list to read for comprehension and understand context. I can't help it if that person hasn't managed to master the proper reading skills I learned back in about Second Grade.

Quite simply, anyone who thinks that no Jewish person or group of Jewish leaders has ever been a liar, or a murderer, or exhibited behaviour that could legitimately be characterized as being derived from the Devil, is blind.

27 posted on 10/20/2006 9:34:18 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
“The Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God and are contrary to all men: forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” (l Thessalonians 2.14-16)

*************

Due to time constraints, I am going to address only the above. (Btw-my bible is The New American Bible and has a different translation than yours).

Briefly, if I understand it correctly, this particular passage is not directed at Jews as a group, but at particular Jews who were in conflict with the first Christians. It was probably only natural that this conflict came into being, given the history of the Church. Paul was simply stating his frustration with the antagonism of some to the birth of this new religion.

28 posted on 10/20/2006 9:58:58 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Interesting discussion ping.


29 posted on 10/20/2006 10:00:48 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham
The Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets ...

"The Romans, who crucified Jesus and slaughtered Christians in the amphitheatre ..."

"The Protestants, who murdered Catholic Priests by hanging, drawing and quartering .."

"The Russians, who threatened America with nuclear annihilation ..."

To interpret these statements as other than condemnations of malfeasant leadership (possibly supported by the rabble) is idiocy.

30 posted on 10/20/2006 10:06:32 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
To interpret these statements as other than condemnations of malfeasant leadership (possibly supported by the rabble) is idiocy.

Just as interpreting those verses to be aimed at individuals and not to a group is idiocy.

31 posted on 10/20/2006 10:15:20 AM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: NYer
What greater honor could be accorded to the Jewish race than to say that they alone, among all the peoples of the earth, are related by blood to the incarnate God?

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." -- Galatians 3:28

32 posted on 10/20/2006 10:17:57 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
That's gibberish ... They're either aimed at a specific individual or set of individuals within a group, or they're aimed at the group as a whole.

A sane, in context, reading of the verses in question leaves no doubt that the former is true.

Continuing to stump for the latter interpretation will only have the effect of turning "antisemitic" into a cheap epithet similar to "racist", "sexist", and "homophobic".

Don't expect me to sit back and never bring this to your attention. I don't roll like that.

33 posted on 10/20/2006 10:24:11 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
To call some of these "anti-semetic" [sic] is just ridiculous.

“But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you to councils, and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten” (Mark 13.9)

Predicting events that in fact came to pass is anti-Semitic?

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate.” (Matthew 23.37,38)

Reflecting sorrowfully on events that in fact had come to pass already and would come to pass in the future is "anti-Semitic"? Jewish literature records that a number of prophets were martyred. Isaiah was sawn in half. The Zechariah of 2 Chron 24 was stoned.

“Stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so you do.

"Stiff-necked" and "uncircumcised in heart" are taken straight from Torah.

Basically, what you're saying is that anything in the NT critical of particular Jews, Judaism, or the Jewish leadership of the late 2nd temple era is "anti-Semitic" ... which is just foolish.

34 posted on 10/20/2006 10:57:53 AM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Keep telling yourselft that.

Imperatives don't prove anything about the point in question. That's why responding with an imperative is no less of a fallacy than responding with an ad hominem.

-A8

35 posted on 10/20/2006 10:59:56 AM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

Please post the Anti-Semite Remarks in the New Testament for which you speak.


36 posted on 10/20/2006 12:18:53 PM PDT by TaraP
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To: Invincibly Ignorant; Coleus

Was Moses a murderer? All human beings are guilty of breaking the Ten Commandments my friend. Jew and Gentile alike.

The point is Jesus came to save the sinner not the ones who thought they were holier than thou...

*The proud Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: *I thank you God that I am not a sinner like everyone else, especially like that tax collector over there! For I never cheat, I don't sin, I don't commit adultery, I fast twice a week and give you a tenth of my income.

*But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead he beat his chest in sorrow saying O' God be merciful to me for I am a sinner.


Luke 18:11-13 NLT


37 posted on 10/20/2006 12:29:35 PM PDT by TaraP
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

The story of Jesus is a Jewish one not a Gentile one. The Jews were God's Chosen people. (Chosen does not mean free of sin) It was to the Jews Jesus was speaking to and it was the Jews who took the Gospels to the rest of the Gentile World.

You are a bit mis-guided in your views.
Not judging you just making an observation by what you post.


38 posted on 10/20/2006 12:34:39 PM PDT by TaraP
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To: NYer

Something to consider ordering.


39 posted on 10/20/2006 12:51:07 PM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Who else?

40 posted on 10/20/2006 1:24:35 PM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Gee, didn't the OT prophets also have a thing or two to say about the lack of faith of the Hebrew people from time to time? Didn't they occasionally give God's prophets a hard time? Didn't the prophets give them a hard time occasionally, too.

I must have misunderstood.
41 posted on 10/20/2006 1:24:39 PM PDT by chesley (Republicans don't serve to win...But America does not deserve the Dhimmicrats!)
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To: chesley
The Old Testament is antisemitic, too. And anybody who would call the Israelites a "stiff-necked people" is obviously a flaming antisemite.

That was sarcasm, by the way ...

42 posted on 10/20/2006 1:31:06 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard




Seemed that way to me, too :)







43 posted on 10/20/2006 1:39:42 PM PDT by chesley (Republicans don't serve to win...But America does not deserve the Dhimmicrats!)
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To: x_plus_one
I have experience that went the opposite direction: I was born Catholic, attended Catholic schools, memorized the catechism, stuck thorns in my thumbs for penance while hoping the Virgin Mary would appear to me, and listened to a lot of hatred drivel doled out by the school Monseigneur who molested me for two years. I then attended a Protestant boarding school with 4 years of bible study; I wrote my thesis as a senior on why I wanted to become Jewish ( I considered Judaism beautiful and pure.) I converted by mickvah, married a wonderful Jewish boy, and have been delighted with the symbolism, spirituality, meaning, and intelligence the religion has given my life. Thanks, I don't accept Jesus as my personal trainer.
44 posted on 10/20/2006 1:42:06 PM PDT by gallaxyglue (Have we lost our civilization as we know it?)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; NYer

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." -- Galatians 3:28"



The Jews do have the greater honor...

"Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God." - Rom 3

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" - Rom 1

"But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:" - Rom 2


45 posted on 10/20/2006 2:46:02 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: gallaxyglue

"Thanks, I don't accept Jesus as my personal trainer."

Where do you disagree with his teachings?


46 posted on 10/20/2006 2:48:12 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: gallaxyglue
memorized the catechism, stuck thorns in my thumbs for penance while hoping the Virgin Mary would appear to me

Where in the catechism did it tell you to stick thorns in your thumbs for penance while hoping the Virgin Mary would appear to you?

47 posted on 10/20/2006 2:54:43 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Oh, do please tell about those non-Jews that wrote the books of the New Testament. Name names. You're looking pretty silly from where I sit, but go for it. Provide evidence to support your names.

And I'm not talking about those who translated the books; I'm talking about the scrolls.

48 posted on 10/20/2006 3:02:01 PM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: gallaxyglue

I am so sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience with individuals that were suppose to be following and guiding in Christ's footsteps..There are many sheeps in wolves clothing unforunately.

Judiasm is a beautiful faith which Jesus Christ comes from...


49 posted on 10/20/2006 3:26:43 PM PDT by TaraP
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To: All

.Sorry I meant Wolves in Sheep's Clothing!


50 posted on 10/20/2006 3:28:46 PM PDT by TaraP
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