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The Lost Soul of Scott Hahn
The Berean Beacon ^ | John W. Robbins

Posted on 11/02/2006 12:44:03 PM PST by Alex Murphy

The Lost Soul of Scott Hahn

By John W. Robbins

Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism. Scott and Kimberly Hahn. San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1993. Foreword by Peter Kreeft

What sorts of people write autobiographies when they are healthy and well at 35? Generally there are three sorts: egotists, egomaniacs, and megalomaniacs. There seems to be no other plausible reason for writing the story of one's life when it has barely begun. But the fawning Peter Kreeft, a confused mind who wrote the Foreword for this book, disagrees. According to Kreeft, Scott and Kimberly Hahn are "one of the beautiful and bright-shining stars in the firmament of hope for our desperate days." The Hahns, writes Kreeft shamelessly, "are simply very bright, clear-thinking and irrefutably reasonable... passionately in love with Truth and with honesty. They are incapable of fudging anything except fudge." Kreeft calls the Hahns "stars" for only one reason: their noisy rejection of Christianity and conversion to Roman Catholicism. They have no other "achievement."

I once knew Scott Hahn. I met him about twelve years ago when he was a Presbyterian minister living in the Washington, D.C. area. (I had spoken to Hahn by phone before that: When he was a student at Gordon-Conwell Seminary, I paid him to record the guest lectures of Gordon Clark at the seminary.) Being an administrative assistant to a Member of Congress at the time, I invited Hahn (and others) to speak to a group of Congressional staffers, and he spoke on his favorite topic, "familism," which is his apotheosis of the family. At the time I had no knowledge of Hahn's real theological views; I was naive enough to think that a Presbyterian minister actually believed Presbyterian doctrine, and Hahn dissembled well enough. He fooled me, and a number of other people as well. In a discussion I had with Hahn after his lecture, it became clear that one of Hahn's preoccupations – in addition to his obsession with the notion of family – was eschatology: He was a postmillennialist who had been heavily influenced by the Reconstructionist movement. In fact, he was the (unordained) pastor of a Reconstructionist church in Fairfax, Virginia.

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Romeward Bound

Hahn is one of a few seminary-trained, apparently well-educated Protestant ministers who have joined the Roman Catholic Church over the last few years. The Hahns have gained some notoriety from their speeches and tapes, and now this book, which is based on their speeches, will add to that notoriety. One remark his wife makes in this book suggests that Hahn's desire to be noticed is great: "Scott suffered tremendous loneliness. He was misunderstood and rejected by many Protestant friends who didn't want to talk to him.... He felt that former professors didn't think he was worth pursuing to convince him he was wrong [about Scripture]. And he couldn't understand the nonchalance of a number of [Roman] Catholics at Marquette [University, where Hahn was a student at the time] over his conversion, acting rather hohum over the whole thing, rather than welcoming him for all he had risked and left behind" (109). What good is being a martyr if no one notices you?

Two other men defected to Rome as a result of Hahn's influence: his seminary classmate Gerald Matatics, and Presbyterian Church in America minister William Bales. Other defections, such as that of author Thomas Howard, are apparently unrelated to Hahn's. Why were these men seduced by Rome? The answers to that question are complex. Each man's seduction is probably unique. But there are some features of Hahn's seduction that reveal fatal weaknesses in what passes for contemporary Protestant Christianity. Today Hahn teaches at the Franciscan Seminary of Steubenville (Ohio), a charismatic Roman Catholic institution. His wife, the daughter of a Presbyterian clergyman, is also a graduate of Gordon-Conwell: She wanted to be a pastor, she says.

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Liberalism and Arminianism

The first of the reasons for Hahn's conversion to Romanism is liberalism and Arminianism. Hahn tells us that he was "baptized a Presbyterian" and "raised in a nominal Protestant home. Church and religion played a small role in my life and for my family...." As a teenager, he was a drug-using criminal who lied his way out of jail: "Faced with a yearlong sentence to a detention center for a variety of charges, I barely lied my way out of the sentence and into six months of probation instead" (1). In high school Hahn became active in Young Life, an Arminian evangelistic group. There he read Paul Little and C. S. Lewis. He also had some religious experiences: "Before finishing my sophomore year, I experienced the transforming power of God's grace in conversion. Within the next year, I experienced a special outpouring of the Holy Spirit in a personal and life-changing way." Apparently Hahn had both a conversion experience and a charismatic experience in high school. In his senior year, he met the Presbyterian John Gerstner, "one of my favorite theologians" (31). While in high school, Hahn also became enamored of Luther and Calvin, apparently because they appealed to his need for heroes: "I decided the figures in Christian history who most appealed to me...were the great protestant reformers Martin Luther and John Calvin" (5). But the theologies of Luther and Calvin seemed to play relatively small parts in Hahn's thinking; he was fascinated by other things. A guitarist, Hahn liked modern music: "The summer before going off to college, I toured the United States, Scotland, England and Holland, playing guitar in a Christian musical group, the Continentals" (13). Hahn attended the theologically liberal but economically conservative Grove City College, a college affiliated with the mainline Presbyterian church, where he concentrated in theology, philosophy, and economics, and continued his activity in Young Life. While in college, Hahn "discovered that the covenant was really the key for unlocking the whole Bible" (17). Beware the man who thinks he has discovered some sort of "key" for understanding the Bible, whether it is the idea of covenant, a scheme of dispensations (instituted by covenants), or a five-point covenantal model.

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Thomism and Evidentialism

The second major factor influencing Hahn's conversion to Rome seems to be the official Roman Catholic philosophy of Thomas Aquinas and evidentialism. While at nominally Protestant Grove City College, Hahn "had become enamored with and steeped in the philosophy of Saint Thomas. In spite of my anti-Catholic outlook, I had known a good thing when I found it, and in my mind, no one could compare to Aquinas.... I had devoured his philosophical writings, especially his metaphysics, eventually acquiring the odd and unlikely reputation for being an ‘evangelical Thomist' " (101).

During his first years in Gordon-Conwell Seminary, 1979-81, Hahn suffered from a confused mental state: "At this point I would describe my study as a detective story. I was searching Scripture to discover clues as to the whereabouts of real Christianity" (25). Although Hahn does not mention it in the book, his tuition at Gordon-Conwell was paid by a Calvinist Christian businessman who wanted to support a student who understood both free market economics and Christian theology, for the purpose of being able to teach economics to clergymen and Christian theology to economists. Hahn was highly recommended to the businessman by the Chairman of the Economics Department at Grove City. What Hahn learned at Grove City was Thomism, and his interest in economics – which he says he studied only to mollify his "practical" father, not because he was genuinely interested in the subject – has disappeared. Hahn's obsession is to convert Christians to Catholicism, not to educate clergymen about principles of economics or economists about Christian theology. He owes one Christian businessman many thousand dollars and his former economics professor an apology.

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Justitication by Works and Norman Shepherd

While he was at Gordon-Conwell being supported by a Calvinist Christian businessman, Hahn adopted the Roman Catholic view of justification: "When Christ formed the New Covenant with us, then, it was much more than a simple contract or legal exchange, where he took our sin and gave us his righteousness, as Luther and Calvin explained it.... In fact, I discovered that nowhere did Saint Paul ever teach that we were justified by faith alone! Sola fide was unscriptural! "I was so excited about this discovery. I shared it with some friends, who were amazed at how much sense it made. Then one friend stopped me and asked if I knew who else was teaching this way on justification. When I responded that I didn't, he told me that Dr. Norman Shepherd, a professor at Westminster Theological Seminary (the strictest Presbyterian Calvinist seminary in America) was about to undergo a heresy trial for teaching the same view of justification that I was expounding. "So I called Professor Shepherd and talked with him. He said he was accused of teaching something contrary to the teachings of Scripture, Luther and Calvin. As I heard him describe what he was teaching, I thought, Hey, that is what I'm saying" (30-31).

As for Kimberly, "At this point [more than halfway through seminary] I was not steeped in Reformation theology, so the change in how I viewed justification did not seem momentous" (42). Please consider the import of that statement. Here are two graduates of a Presbyterian College, two students nearing completion of their studies at reputedly one of the best evangelical Protestant seminaries in the country, two professing Christians – and the meaning of justification is not all that important to them. As we shall soon see, despite – or rather because of – their education, the Hahns – especially Scott – could not defend the Reformation principles of the Bible alone, faith alone, and Christ alone.

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Reconstructionism and Theonomy

The fourth major influence on Hahn's conversion to Romanism was the Reconstructionist movement. After attending seminary, Hahn had intended to study theology at the University of Aberdeen in Scotland, where he had been acc.epted, but he changed his mind because of Margaret Thatcher: "Margaret Thatcher made it almost impossible for Americans to have babies at British taxpayers' expense; so we took this as sign for us to look elsewhere for work, delaying doctoral studies for a while" (32). Not having paid for his own education, Hahn apparently did not intend to pay for his children either. The principles of economics seem to have been quite forgotten.

Instead, Hahn was hired as pastor and schoolteacher by a Reconstructionist church in Fairfax, Virginia: "When I candidated for the position at Trinity Presbyterian Church, I shared my views and concerns regarding justification – that I took Dr. Shepherd's position. They understood and said they did, too. So shortly before graduation, I accepted the pastorate at Trinity, as well as a teaching position in their high school, Fairfax Christian School" (33). The Reconstuctionist church was not fooled: They knew quite well that Hahn had defected from the Biblical doctrine of justification by faith, and they wanted him for that reason.

While pastoring the Reconstructionist church, Hahn "began to see how important liturgy was for the covenant.... Liturgy represented the way God fathered the covenant family..." (43). "My parishioners grew excited. The elders even asked me to revise our liturgy." While teaching his ideas at the school, his Roman Catholicism was so obvious that several of his students told him he would join the Roman Catholic church. (Someone should write a book about Reconstructionist churches and their affinity for Roman Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and doctrine.) Hahn was also invited to teach at Dominion Theological Institute (which later merged with Chesapeake Theological Seminary). During this period he became convinced of the Roman doctrine that Jesus Christ was physically present in the bread and the wine. Thus, when one participates in mass, one is eating the physical body and drinking the physical blood of Christ. The proper name for the practice – if Catholics were actually doing what they dogmatically assert that they are doing – is ritual cannibalism.

Hahn was also teaching his seminary students – contrary to what the seminary itself believed, contrary to what he was being paid to teach, and without informing the leadership of the seminary – that justification by faith alone was false. The fact that he was denying the Christian doctrine of justification while being paid to teach it does not seem to bother him. Oddly, Hahn opens his book with this story designed to illustrate his lifelong honesty: "I recall the last time I ever attended our family's church. The minister was preaching all about his doubts regarding the Virgin Birth of Jesus and his bodily Resurrection. I just stood up in the middle of his sermon and walked out. I remember thinking, I'm not sure what I believe, but at least I'm honest enough not to stand up and attack the things I'm supposed to teach" (1). But that is exactly what Hahn did when he taught seminary classes, and that is exactly what he did when he accepted money for seminary tuition under false pretenses. After Hahn attacked sola fide in his seminary classes in Virginia, one of the students challenged him to defend sola scriptura. He could not (51-52). After seven years in "Protestant" educational institutions, and now a Presbyterian minister, Hahn, who by all accounts was an excellent student, could not defend the major principles of the Protestant Reformation.

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Messages from God and Mary

The Hahns left Virginia and moved back to Grove City, where Scott took a job as assistant to the college president and instructor in theology, of all things. Liberalism, Arminianism, Thomism, evidentialism, and Reconstructionism had persuaded Hahn of the truth of Catholicism, and now Mary clinched the argument: Hahn began feeling that God was "calling me into the [Roman] Catholic Church" (60). Scott and Kimberly got "feelings," "leadings," "nudges," "peace," "impressions," and "callings," – alleged messages from God and his mother, Mary. While teaching theology at Grove City College, Hahn drove down to Duquesne University in Pittsburgh for theology classes. There he was "the only student defending Pope John Paul II!" (66), and there he first became involved with Opus Dei (67). After someone mailed him a Rosary, Hahn decided to perform an experiment by praying to Mary about an "impossible situation." Hahn prayed, and the impossible situation resolved itself within three months. In Hahn's irrational mind, praying the Rosary obviously worked. As a result, Hahn now prays to Mary daily.

That, of course, is how all superstitions begin: committing the logical fallacy post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Leaving Grove City, Hahn decided to continue his studies at Marquette University. While in Milwaukee he learned that his seminary classmate, Gerald Matatics, was going to be absorbed into the Roman Catholic church two weeks later at Easter, 1986. Hahn, who had talked Matatics into Roman Catholicism, could not stand to have him go first, yet Hahn had promised his wife that he would not become a Roman Catholic until 1990. He asked her to pray about releasing him from his promise, and she did so. Hahn and Matatics were both absorbed by the Roman Catholic Church in 1986. Hahn says that he "had fallen head over heels in love with our Lord in the Eucharist!" (88).

Kimberly was jealous of Scott's long walks and talks with Mary. During Christmas 1986 Kimberly, who was pregnant, got a "word from the Lord" concerning her baby (115). When the baby was baptized a Roman Catholic, Kimberly "was astounded at the beauty of the liturgy" (117). Kimberly "came to appreciate that [baby] Hannah had become a child of God through baptism, being born again by water and the Spirit. As I studied baptism, it connected with what I had already done on justification. As with Scott, my study in seminary had led me to reject as unscriptural the Protestant teaching of justification by faith alone" (137). Note well: "As with Scott, my study in seminary had led me to reject as unscriptural the Protestant teaching of justification by faith alone."

When Hahn was confirmed, he chose Francis de Sales as his "patron saint," because "de Sales happened to be the Bishop of Geneva, Switzerland, while John Calvin was leading the people farther away from the Catholic Faith.... [He] was such an effective preacher and apologist that, through his sermons and pamphlets, over forty thousand Calvinists were brought back into the Church" (133).

John Gerstner and Robert Knudsen

Before defecting to Rome, Hahn and Matatics had met with John Gerstner, the evidentialist Presbyterian theologian who was unable to persuade them of the errors of Roman Catholicism. After his conversion, Hahn debated with Robert Knudsen, the Dooyeweerdian and Van Tilian professor of apologetics at Westminster Seminary, about sola fide and sola scriptura. Hahn writes: "I never dreamed of such a positive outcome. Not only did the Westminster Seminary students in attendance express their surprise and excitement at the end," his wife was impressed too. I have listened to that debate on cassette tape, and Apologetics Professor Knudsen's performance is embarrassing and incompetent.

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Meeting the Pope

In January 1992, Dr. Jerry Kirk, Hahn's father-in-law, a Presbyterian minister in Cincinnati, invited Hahn to accompany him to Rome to meet the pope. There he met the "Holy Father" for a few seconds and the next day went to a chapel for mass with the pope. He embraced the pope, giving him a personal letter and a check. "As I left the presence of Pope John Paul II – the one anointed by my heavenly Father and eldest Brother to shepherd the covenant family of God on earth – I had a strong sense that God was saying, ‘Scott, the best is yet to come' " (172). Hahn does not explain this dark, oracular saying: Does it mean that he will be elected the first American pope? Appointed cardinal? Invited to Rome to join the Vatican lowerarchy? Named Grand Inquisitor? We are not told.

The State of Contemporary "Protestantism"

Hahn's defection is one of several similar defections. They are occurring, not because Rome is a true church, but because of the apostasy of "Protestantism." The largest American Protestant denominations are either unbelieving or unknowing, priding themselves on their rejection of Scripture, their vacuous faith, or their limited knowledge. Many smaller denominations and independent churches are in little better condition. They are largely Arminian – which is semi-Romanist already, believing in man's free will; revivalist – which is informed by Roman Catholic experientialism; or charismatic – which continues Rome's theology of miracles and gifts. American "Protestantism" is mostly Roman Catholic already. Some of the more conservative churches have been led astray by Reconstructionism, by religiously cooperative efforts in the anti-abortion movement, by programs of social and political reform. Just when the preaching of the Gospel is most urgently needed, it is rarely heard in "Protestant" pulpits. It is doubtful that most graduates of theological schools could give a clear and accurate summary of the Gospel. The Roman Catholic church is by far the largest ecclesiastical organization in America with about 58 million subjects; it operates tens of thousands of churches, thousands of schools, and hundreds of colleges. Worldwide, it claims more than 950 million subjects. Its loyal American subjects are becoming more and more militant in every area. Hahn's own zeal for the pope is reflected not only in this book, but in the scores of tapes he and his wife have produced and which have been distributed by the hundreds of thousands. Only the grace of God can save us from another Dark Age and the church that Luther recognized as the slaughterhouse of souls.

May God send forth his light and his truth.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: anticatholic; anticatholicism; catholic; catholiclist; christianity; conversion; evangelical; protestant; scotthahn
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1 posted on 11/02/2006 12:44:08 PM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy
May God send forth his light and his truth.

He does that continually. Dr. Hahn saw it ... that's why he became Catholic.

2 posted on 11/02/2006 12:45:47 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

GRPL Ping


3 posted on 11/02/2006 12:46:32 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: ArrogantBustard

I love listening to Scott Hahn, he has a wealth of knowledge.


4 posted on 11/02/2006 12:47:29 PM PST by diamond6 (Everyone who is for abortion has been born. Ronald Reagan)
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To: Alex Murphy
What sorts of people write autobiographies when they are healthy and well at 35? Generally there are three sorts: egotists, egomaniacs, and megalomaniacs. etc.

Your author should be ashamed of himself. Seriously. This is nothing more than a collection of insults directed at the person he disagrees with; it in no way addresses the content of the book or the review.

5 posted on 11/02/2006 12:50:43 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Boy you opened up a can of worms with this thread lol. Time to get the popcorn. For the record, Scott Hahn books and tapes were a major part of my conversion


6 posted on 11/02/2006 12:53:29 PM PST by catholicfreeper (Geaux Tigers SEC FOOTBALL ROCKS)
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To: Alex Murphy
1 Cor 10:12

In this case, post lux tenebras.

7 posted on 11/02/2006 12:54:14 PM PST by Frumanchu (Historical Revisionism: When you're tired of being on the losing side of history.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
IMO the Hahns should be. From the article:

Here are two graduates of a Presbyterian College, two students nearing completion of their studies at reputedly one of the best evangelical Protestant seminaries in the country, two professing Christians – and the meaning of justification is not all that important to them.

8 posted on 11/02/2006 12:54:58 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: catholicfreeper
Welcome aboard!

The author could simply have said "I don't like Scott Hahn" and left it at that. The article is long on vitriol and short on content. I sincerely hope that it is not characteristic of Calvinist thought.

9 posted on 11/02/2006 12:56:03 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Alex Murphy; All

"The Lost Soul of Scott Hahn"

Only God knows, with Divine omniscience, who is lost and who is saved. It is not in the human capacity to know this, nor did the Lord ever intend for it to be.

He has told us to leave all judgment to Him.

I don't understand the purpose of this post.


10 posted on 11/02/2006 12:56:04 PM PST by Running On Empty
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To: Alex Murphy

Do you consider that first paragraph of the article which YOU posted to be in any way defensible?


11 posted on 11/02/2006 1:00:15 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
The article is long on vitriol and short on content. I sincerely hope that it is not characteristic of Calvinist thought.

AFAIK the "Berean Beacon" isn't a Calvinist (Presbyterian) publication. Based on some of the article's content, I wouldn't say it's characteristic of Calvinist thought.

12 posted on 11/02/2006 1:01:36 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: catholicfreeper; Alex Murphy; diamond6; ArrogantBustard
For the record, Scott Hahn books and tapes were a major part of my conversion.

And continue to be for so many others who are seeking to learn more about the Catholic Church.

And, for catholics, Dr. Hahn has put together an outstanding web site on Holy Scripture.

ST PAUL CENTER FOR BIBLICAL THEOLOGY

13 posted on 11/02/2006 1:01:53 PM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: Alex Murphy

I'm sure this article is a wonderful example of the sort of thinking that is characteristic of whateve confession the "Berean Beacon" represents.


14 posted on 11/02/2006 1:03:54 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: diamond6

the book is available here:

http://www.amazon.com/Rome-Sweet-Home-Journey-Catholicism/dp/0898704782

has great reviews too.

>>>Written with simplicity, charity, grace and wit, the Hahns' deep love and knowledge of Christ and of Scripture is evident and contagious throughout their story. Their love of truth and of neighbor is equally evident, and their theological focus on the great importance of the family, both biological and spiritual, will be a source of inspiration for all readers.<<<


15 posted on 11/02/2006 1:05:18 PM PST by Nihil Obstat (viva il papa - be not afraid)
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To: catholicfreeper

totally agreed... the author of this article is so full of hate he can't see straight. Dr. Hahn was a very large contributor to my understanding of the Catholic Church and, as the saying goes, "those who truly understand her cannot remain apart from her and those who hate her only hate what they imagine her to be..."

God bless Dr. Hahn and his lovely family. He has boldly sought the Truth yet he has remained charitable and gracious for his Evangelical roots... one would only hope a fellow believer could return the courtesy. Sheesh...


16 posted on 11/02/2006 1:06:11 PM PST by DogwoodSouth (Not feeling the love from Cameron...)
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To: Alex Murphy

"As a result, Hahn now prays to Mary daily."

Sigh.

"The fact that he was denying the Christian doctrine of justification while being paid to teach it does not seem to bother him"

Reminds me of the joke about the country school teacher. When asked if the he beleived the world was flat or round , he said he could teach it either way.


17 posted on 11/02/2006 1:09:47 PM PST by Augustinian monk
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To: ArrogantBustard

The Berean Beacon is still stuck in that old anti fashioned Catholicism. It still thinks that people like James White are great minds.

It and its people that like it have not realized that more serious and truly Christian discussion is going on between Catholics and Reformed minded people. Its a relic. They will throw in the occaional William Webster writings that would embarass any serious student of Church History.


18 posted on 11/02/2006 1:11:16 PM PST by catholicfreeper (Geaux Tigers SEC FOOTBALL ROCKS)
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To: Alex Murphy

Good post.


19 posted on 11/02/2006 1:17:12 PM PST by fishtank
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To: Alex Murphy

Interesting. Does the author actually get around to anything substantive? Or is this just a hit piece on Scott Hahn? From what I can tell the author is majorly bummed out about the Hahns becoming Catholic, but he doesn't bother to address the reasons except to say that Hahn likes Thomas Aquinas (wow, that's really radical).

The author then plays the "superstition" card. And then seems to be comparing the Church to some gigantic evil kingdom filled with souls he likely believes are on the road to hell. It's just a poorly written rant.


20 posted on 11/02/2006 1:18:15 PM PST by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna)
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To: Alex Murphy
Kreeft calls the Hahns "stars" for only one reason: their noisy rejection of Christianity and conversion to Roman Catholicism. They have no other "achievement."

This junk is about five or ten years old, Alex. Dr. Hahn is today a professor of theology at Steubenville and an adjunct professor at a seminary in Pennsylvania. He also founded and runs the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology (www.salvationhistory.com), which promotes Catholic Bible study and scholarship. He also has written a number of books, including a fantastic set of high school textbooks available through an Opus Dei publishing house (Midwest Theological Forum), the second volume of which, on Scripture, is one of the best one-volume books about the Bible available, bar none.

Do you want me to go on? "No other achievements?" Get real ...

21 posted on 11/02/2006 1:30:26 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: ArrogantBustard

Dear ArrogantBustard,

You gotta pity this poor soul who wrote this.


sitetest


22 posted on 11/02/2006 1:32:33 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Nihil Obstat
Amazon allows the viewer to sort reviews by number of stars. Take a look at the one-star and two-star (unfavourable) ratings. The reviewers all manage to express their disagreement with the book, and even their opinion that the Hahns aren't being completely honest, without insults, invective, and vitriol.

I think all of us could learn a thing or two from those reviewers.

23 posted on 11/02/2006 1:37:05 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: sitetest

Indeed ... If I ever get that bitter about life, I hope my friends would have the decency to stage an "intervention".


24 posted on 11/02/2006 1:39:07 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Alex Murphy
"As I left the presence of Pope John Paul II – the one anointed by my heavenly Father and eldest Brother to shepherd the covenant family of God on earth – I had a strong sense that God was saying, ‘Scott, the best is yet to come' " (172). Hahn does not explain this dark, oracular saying: Does it mean that he will be elected the first American pope? Appointed cardinal? Invited to Rome to join the Vatican lowerarchy? Named Grand Inquisitor? We are not told.

This is actually really funny ... in a sick sort of way.

25 posted on 11/02/2006 1:46:19 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: ArrogantBustard

Dear ArrogantBustard,

Me, too. But I hope my friends come with a bottle of,... ah,..., er... the milk of human kindness.

;-)


sitetest


26 posted on 11/02/2006 2:05:32 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Alex Murphy
When otherwise decent and intelligent people. people who sincerely seek the Lord Jesus and His will, display such hatred, contempt and ignorance of their subject matter, one has to suspect demonic influence -- either direct or through various instruments, among which one might include the person's surrounding culture and so forth.

Then. one has to ask, what would the demons, what would their prince want most of all to fight by whatever means possible? Wouldn't it be the Truth, the truth of God's love, the truth of the instruments and efficacious signs of that love, the truth of the Body of Christ on earth, the truth of the reliable and salvific proclamation of the Love, that personified love, that incarnate love who became a slave that we might be free?

So I reckon that the unreasoning and visceral fear, hatred and despite I used to bear the Catholic Church was just the work of the devil trying to keep me from the Way. And so I reckon articles like this are confirmations of Hahn's choice and of mine, confirmations of what God chose in us and for us.

And, there's good news here for this writer: At two o'clock some sleepless morning, he will remember how excessive, how unfair, how unjustified -- when you get right down to it, how embarrassing! -- this article was, and maybe God will move anew in his heart. It is good to know that this man's love for the Lord is so fierce. [The force is strong in this one. ;) ] God is working with him, and we can rely on God to work it all out.

The Lord is good at ju-jitsu -- definitely a sensei. He uses our strengths. He will let us overbalance, and when we see we are falling, He will catch us.

The mystery of our religion is great, as Paul said to Timothy, and the Love of our Lord is wonderful.

27 posted on 11/02/2006 2:07:26 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Now we are all Massoud)
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To: Alex Murphy; ArrogantBustard; Campion; diamond6; catholicfreeper; NYer; Nihil Obstat; ...
AM: Nice work. Through post #25: 14 Catholic responses. 8 Protestant posts (all but 1 are your very own) and 3 indeterminate.

No observable conversions to the "reformed" persuasion observed.

Note that I am just keeping score and not editorializing but do you think this thread was a good idea for the "reformed?"

You must love Marcus Grodi and his ministry.

28 posted on 11/02/2006 2:14:03 PM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: Alex Murphy; Mad Dawg

Make that 16-8-3 through #27


29 posted on 11/02/2006 2:16:33 PM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: ArrogantBustard
LOL I have to say that at first I was angry with this guy. What a strange and nasty personal attack. The more I read the less Christian the guy seemed and even before I was halfway through the hate piece I actually laughed out loud.

This is supposed to be a hit piece on Dr Hahn but it really is a piece which let us catch a glimpse into the heart of darkness where this man has pitched his tent.

The author is a very angry bitter hateful man.

30 posted on 11/02/2006 2:26:05 PM PST by bornacatholic
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

Apparently my thought processes and motivations are the subject matter of this thread....

Post #11: "Do you consider that first paragraph of the article which YOU posted to be in any way defensible?"

Post #14: "I'm sure this article is a wonderful example of the sort of thinking that is characteristic of whateve confession the "Berean Beacon" represents."

Post #27: "When otherwise decent and intelligent people. people who sincerely seek the Lord Jesus and His will, display such hatred, contempt and ignorance of their subject matter, one has to suspect demonic influence..."

Post #28: "...do you think this thread was a good idea for the "reformed?" You must love Marcus Grodi and his ministry..."


31 posted on 11/02/2006 2:27:57 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: Alex Murphy
What a mean-spirited and un-Christian article. Scott Hahn's writing was intellectually important to me in my journey back to faith. He is an honest and caring man, and the quote below shows that the writer doesn't grasp that.

At the time I had no knowledge of Hahn's real theological views; I was naive enough to think that a Presbyterian minister actually believed Presbyterian doctrine, and Hahn dissembled well enough.

If you read the book, Hahn himself was so anti-Rome that he was horrified to be going in that direction. He nearly lost his marriage and all his friendships.

In terms of life changes, it is far easier for someone to leave Rome then someone to come to Rome.

32 posted on 11/02/2006 2:31:12 PM PST by technochick99 ( Firearm of choice: Sig Sauer....)
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To: All
"...Corruptio optimi pessimum est, says the proverb: "the corruption of the best is the worst." The early Christians felt a measure of tolerance for the pagans, even though they were persecuted by them, for the pagans were ignorant. "This ignorance," Paul told the Athenians, "God winked at" (Acts 17:30). But Paul did not wink at him who brought "any other Gospel" within the context of the Christian community. "Let him be accursed," he told the Galilean church (Gal. 1:18). Honorable enemies are regarded with less hostility than the traitor from within one's own camp. The Christian life is often presented as spiritual warfare; if the pagans are the enemies, the heretics are the traitors."
- Harold O.J. Brown,
Heresies - The Image of Christ in the Mirror of Heresy and Orthodoxy from the Apostles to the Present.
Doubleday and Company, 1984 edition, page 3

33 posted on 11/02/2006 2:32:40 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: Alex Murphy

Posters frequently question the motives of why someone will post any given article. This happens to everyone, and not just in the religious forum. I find it ridiculous, but not worth getting upset about.


34 posted on 11/02/2006 2:32:52 PM PST by technochick99 ( Firearm of choice: Sig Sauer....)
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To: ArrogantBustard; Campion; bornacatholic
Here is the piece of information which you are missing.

From the Berean Beacon home page:

Berean Beacon Ministries proclaims the Good News of Salvation, The Gospel of Jesus Christ. The President and founder is Richard Bennett, a former Roman Catholic Priest.

Bennett's essays appear on FR every once in a while. The content is entirely predictable.

35 posted on 11/02/2006 2:42:34 PM PST by marshmallow
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To: sitetest
Hahn is brilliant. I tried to link to the Ressourcement Blog where his work has received incredibly insightful reviews but it has shut down..dang

On eof the conclusions reached there is Mr. Hahn knows MUCH more than he is telling us. He is a GREAT man and he is leading us deeper into Truth. That Crisis magazine and this guy hates him is an excellent reason to love him :)

FWIW, his "Letter and Spirit" Journal is smashing. I am afraid if the author of this piece gets aholt of it, he will issue a fatwa. It is all about the relationship twixt the Bible and the Catholic Liturgy.

See you later, cannibal boy...

36 posted on 11/02/2006 2:42:54 PM PST by bornacatholic
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To: marshmallow; Alex Murphy
Let's see, there's:

Honorable enemies are regarded with less hostility than the traitor from within one's own camp.

And then there's this:

The President and founder is Richard Bennett, a former Roman Catholic Priest.

Hmmmm ....

37 posted on 11/02/2006 2:45:39 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: marshmallow
Oh, lol. THAT explains it. When one goes from Protestantism to Catholicsm ones goes from partial to complete truth and one never hates their former Community.

When one goes from complete to partial truth one must rationalise their perfidy and broken vows. "It isn't my fault. The Church is corrupt."

It is a bit like listening to a man rationalising why he anbandoned his vows to his wife ..."she was a harpie..she was a bad cook..she got fat...

Well, here is a little Scripture for the ex-priest. He doesn't have God

Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

38 posted on 11/02/2006 2:49:37 PM PST by bornacatholic
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: ArrogantBustard

Quote from the article of dubious value: "What sorts of people write autobiographies when they are healthy and well at 35? Generally there are three sorts: egotists, egomaniacs, and megalomaniacs. etc."

Wow, so when St. Augustine began writing his Confessions at age 42 was he an egotist or an egomaniac?

Arrogant Bastard, this guy is a chump. Sounds like envy on his part. Hahn wrote his autobiography BECAUSE OF READER DEMAND!!! Apparently that fact was lost on the chump.


40 posted on 11/02/2006 3:04:53 PM PST by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Alex Murphy
Some of the more conservative churches have been led astray by Reconstructionism, by religiously cooperative efforts in the anti-abortion movement,

Better that there be abortions than to cooperate with those diabolical Romanists!
41 posted on 11/02/2006 3:07:12 PM PST by irishjuggler
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To: Alex Murphy

I like the one about "demonic influence."


42 posted on 11/02/2006 3:12:37 PM PST by irishtenor (We survived Clinton in the 80s... we can survive her even when her husband is gone.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Alex,

You posted: "the corruption of the best is the worst."

What corruption? Hahn has an excellent reputation as to his personal behavior, for instance. It is amazing to me that webnuts, who often know little or nothing about anything, assume they are in a position to judge someone, condemn him, and even claim his soul as lost without any evidence.

Hahn gave up Calvinism for historical Christianity. Oh, how terrible!


43 posted on 11/02/2006 3:14:15 PM PST by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
BECAUSE OF READER DEMAND

Actually, remembering back, I think it was publisher demand. Dr. Hahn gave talks at parishes on his conversion; one was recorded and became a rather famous tape for St. Joseph Communications, "Protestant Minister Becomes Catholic." After it had sold some ridiculous number of copies, Fr. Fessio of Ignatius press approached him and asked him to do a book version.

44 posted on 11/02/2006 3:16:05 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Alex Murphy
Please consider the import of that statement. Here are two graduates of a Presbyterian College, two students nearing completion of their studies at reputedly one of the best evangelical Protestant seminaries in the country, two professing Christians – and the meaning of justification is not all that important to them. As we shall soon see, despite – or rather because of – their education, the Hahns – especially Scott – could not defend the Reformation principles of the Bible alone, faith alone, and Christ alone.

What a surprise...not.

45 posted on 11/02/2006 3:16:13 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Evidently, since then-Mr. Hahn and Gerry Matatics spent a weekend holed up with Dr. John Gerstner in a motel in Pennsylvania, where Gerstner tried to convince them they were making a mistake ... and failed, even Dr. Gerstner couldn't adequately defend those "Reformation principles".
46 posted on 11/02/2006 3:18:59 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: irishtenor
I like the one about "demonic influence."

Me, too! Bad devil! Bad, bad devil!


47 posted on 11/02/2006 3:21:10 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: Campion

campion,

We're actually saying the same thing from different ends so to speak. Fr. Fessio knew Hahn's book would sell well precisely because so many people were fascinated by his audio and VHS tapes.

By the way, Monsignor Ronald Knox published his autobiography, A Spiritual Aeneid, when he was only 26! I guess our Reformed friends would consider him an egotist for that?


48 posted on 11/02/2006 3:23:50 PM PST by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Campion

For some people, agenda is more important than theology.


49 posted on 11/02/2006 3:25:23 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Alex Murphy

Very true.


50 posted on 11/02/2006 3:27:30 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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