Dort Pitted Calvinists Against Arminians (The Unjust Killing of Oldenbarneveld)

Christian History Institute ^ | Christian History Institute

[Frumanchu]

So why are we even talking about it?

Think about it a second, Jude. Who here stands to gain from a trivialization and dismissal of the Synod of Dordt as now "determinative about anything?"

[Frumanchu]

Because it is held up as the standard bearer. Therefore, it is open to dissection revision.

[Frumanchu]

That should be "not" instead of "now"

[jude24]

Who here stands to gain from a trivialization and dismissal of the Synod of Dordt as now "determinative about anything?"

Frankly, as a Calvinist, I don't need Dordt. Dordt didn't make me a Calvinist - the text (aided by a cascade of discussions with Calvinistically-minded persons) did. Dordt was a historical asterisk as far as I was concerned.

[Alex Murphy]

Where are those Hugo Grotius underoos?

Surely you were aware that Grotius taught that Jesus' shed blood didn't provide a sin covering for us. Is that why you named the underoos after him?

A third view of the atonement was devised by Hugo Grotius (1583-1645) during the Arminian controversy in Holland. Known as the governmental theory of the atonement, this view is something of a middle road between Abelard and Anselm. According to Grotius, Christ's death was a public display of God's justice, but not an actual payment on behalf of sinners. In other words, the cross shows what punishment for sin would look like if God recompensed sin. But no actual vicarious payment of the sinner's debt was made by Christ.

Grotius, like Abelard and the Socinians, believed God could forgive sin without any payment. But Grotius said the dignity and authority of God's law still needed to be upheld. Sin is a challenge to God's right to rule. If God simply overlooked sin, He would in effect abrogate His moral government of the universe. So Christ's death was necessary to vindicate God's authority as ruler, because it proved His willingness and his right to punish, even though He ultimately relinquishes the claims of His justice against repentant sinners. Christ's death therefore was not a substitute for anyone else's punishment, but merely a public example of God's moral authority and His hatred of sin.

In other words, unlike Abelard, Grotius saw that the death of Christ displayed the wrath, as well as the love, of God. Like Abelard, however, Grotius believed the atonement was exemplary rather than substitutionary. Christ did not actually suffer in anyone's place. The atonement accomplished nothing objective on the sinner's behalf; it was merely a symbolic gesture. Christ's death was an example only. And redemption therefore hinges completely on something the sinner must do. So the governmental theory also results inevitably in works-salvation.

-- SOILED --
UNDERWEAR

According to Grotius, Christ's death was a public
display of God's justice, but not an actual payment
on behalf of sinners. In other words, the cross shows
what punishment for sin would look like if God
recompensed sin. But no actual vicarious payment
of the sinner's debt was made by Christ.

[xzins]

No, the underoos were a joke about flammability.

[Corin Stormhands]

Just so you know, I'm still in post-election recovery. And anything more than being a bit snarky on this thread makes my brain hurt.

I'm in my "eliminating stress for the holidays," mode.

It's either that or have myself admitted.

[xzins]

Drive-by Snarky is good. :>)

And popcorn.

Can't forget the popcorn.

[P-Marlowe]

The Hugo Grotius® label Arminian Asbestos Undergarments are made from the finest northern European asbestos and are intended to protect the wearer from the torches of their Calvinistic antagonists and to provide maximum comfort when escaping persecution by the Calvinst swarms while locked inside old book boxes.

[xzins]

Good think you posted those....it's starting to get cold here in rural s. Ohio, AND it's deer bow season with gun season soon on us.

If you have to run to the outhouse in cold weather, you best be in long underroos.

And if you have to run to the outhouse in deer season, you best be in red.

[Alex Murphy]

Leave it to a Neener group to provide their own garments (Rev 7:9,14) and ones colored red at that (Isa 1:18).

[Frumanchu]

LOL!

[Corin Stormhands]

Speaking of snarks.

Isn't the pinging of all those banned GRPLs on other threads a bit like lighting candles and praying for the dead?

I'm just askin'...

[xzins]

Yes, baptism for the dead, wouldn't you think?

[Corin Stormhands]

Kindof a twofer...if you get my drift...

[xzins]

You mean one of those weather alert kind of deals?

[Corin Stormhands]

yeah, pretty much...

[xzins]

Were we just speaking in an unknown language?

:>)

[Corin Stormhands]

We'll just have to wait for the interpretation...

[Frumanchu]

The interpretation would likely result in punitive action.